00:00:16.700 - 00:00:42.270

Unknown: Me, are you planning to we can remember, I want to find out some what you guys had the microphone when you, when you take this, wherever you're sitting, and so forth and so on the microphone, and you're

00:00:42.270 - 00:01:03.020

sitting and how loud did you have it now? You had to record playing it right there, huh? Or standing right now, because, you know, there's so much disturbance on that thing. Catch me too much. I don't know if we'll try. Let's

00:01:03.020 - 00:01:25.340

check this. I want to try it back here to see if I speak in a normal voice that can be heard. All right. We were picking up the hum of the record player itself. That's something you did in your original thing. Too. Frank Weldon, Brahms. Try it

00:01:25.340 - 00:01:40.780

again. I hope this is a sounds a little better. I don't want to have to shout. It's still a little too soft. I don't know if you catch it or not. If you start this side first, if you just got on the tape. Now turn it over, stop the machine, turn

00:01:40.780 - 00:01:55.360

it over and take the other side first, because the other side's the kids, and that's what you want to hear. I just listened to it completely did for the first time a few minutes ago, and very impressed. So you stop it, okay, and turn on the other side.

00:02:02.260 - 00:02:18.000

I'm back again after about a half hour, 45 minutes stopped. You get Rick, yeah, because you had to make it for Belmont. This is Easter vacation, by the way, the first day when he's going over to play tennis and do some shit on the city council, some

00:02:18.060 - 00:02:35.000

such stuff. But now I wanted him to read that article that you'll see here, Gleason on Bruce, which I think is very good on the sense of death. I don't think you commented too much on at least I can't remember you, and then the letters coming in,

00:02:35.000 - 00:02:56.420

too much on Lenny's death. I think I told you that Julian i and Weldon, oh, but this a little over a year ago, caught Bruce in one of his last plays at the Golden Bear in Huntington Beach. Wendon had never, had never heard him very much on

00:02:57.440 - 00:03:13.800

record any other time. You know, as usual, Weldon, he's always about 20 years behind time or further. But in person, Bruce was so great. It was the first time I'd ever heard him in person, too. I got those kind of belly laughs I didn't get except

00:03:14.340 - 00:03:29.480

for 40 years. I got cramps in my legs and my stomach and everything else, from eating, from listening to him for meeting, Wendel Thinks the Thought told me the time he thought he was

00:03:29.480 - 00:03:42.520

probably the greatest public speaker he'd ever heard, and there's no doubt about it, Bruce was a public speaker did a lot besides being a wonderful man and everything. I hope that they had this thing. I know they didn't tape it that night, but I

00:03:42.520 - 00:03:59.140

wish to stay. They must have had. He's got 1000s of tapes. I understand that's been done, and that thing could on record, would be tremendous. After the show, I went back and this, this joint is really a joint and former Coffee House, focusing

00:03:59.140 - 00:04:15.720

place. And then now it's become a place of rock, role groups, Lenny Bruce, once in a while, John handy, so forth and so on, talking about the Golden Bear, thinking back, because this is some time ago, and if it hadn't been

00:04:17.400 - 00:04:25.940

for eating a peanut butter sandwiches, some way connected with Lenny Bruce so forth. So I know how to get on this subject, but I oh yeah, I was, I know I remember now, got the whole thing was trading.

00:04:32.120 - 00:04:49.720

I Bruce. Bruce was very warm when I went back. I know was back. It was a lousy kitchen. He was standing there by himself. And I went back there and and walked up to him and talked to him, shook his hand and thanked him for what I thought, what a

00:04:49.780 - 00:05:03.300

great job he's doing, in general, and so forth. And he responded very good in a lot of ways. A little bit little contact I had with him, which was about 10 minutes he might. You've a lot of Johannes in the sense of you remember the warmth

00:05:03.300 - 00:05:16.020

John always showed you, even if he didn't know you, from here to hell goes on. It wasn't a phony warmth. I found this out with Bruce too. I've had, at least had the same feeling. And I met the kind of guy, as you know, go up it goes up and introduce

00:05:16.020 - 00:05:28.580

myself to some guy, everybody that goes on. In fact, it's a real hard job for me to go up and start a conversation with any kind of celebrity of any kind, mainly because you're not putting most of them down anyway, but and also put myself

00:05:28.580 - 00:05:41.260

down. So why should I go up there and get that stuff? I know what. I'm not an autograph finder. You know that? I guess, kind of talking off the top of my head. I just as I was listening to the eating my sandwich listening to the radio.

00:05:41.260 - 00:05:54.880

Rick left on a capuca goal came on. I think you mentioned it in your letter. Now, I'd heard that, but never paid as much attention to the words. Just now, this was played by sung by something I think that same group was sing that Rudy valet

00:05:54.880 - 00:06:06.600

bit. Remember that, you know. So at least one thing I can get that group there and bringing back to 20s, is the fact that they pronounced the words fairly. Though, you know that Winchester cathedral bunch, they pronounce the words so at least

00:06:06.600 - 00:06:22.100

I can understand them. Look at who's talking. Nobody can understand anything I say. But the words were good in the sense that it was all kinds of allusions to maripot, marijuana, what are you going to call griefer? The street was paved

00:06:22.100 - 00:06:36.080

with bricks of gold, as I guess you know, bricks being that there's that size, it sees biggest sizes. What the size of most of pot comes into this country right now in bricks, although the other day they got it, supposedly in a paper, they

00:06:36.080 - 00:06:52.780

found a couple tons of it. Biggest way to ever. I expect any day now to see they stop a train load of pot coming in from the border. But Ron in this area here has become the wall, has it was, always, has been, for years, the place where all kinds

00:06:52.780 - 00:07:06.900

of the guys were making the exchanges of the pot. I mean, it was brought in from the from over the border. You see, when I was a kid, we never call it pot, as I told you before. I'm sure I've told you this before. We didn't even call it marijuana

00:07:06.900 - 00:07:24.800

too much because that scene was kind of corn, and we never used the word Mary Jane, because that to us, was real shit, real corn. Well, we usually call it grass or hay tea, or the main word we use here was griffa, and that was got a Mexican back with it.

00:07:24.800 - 00:07:47.800

That's the Mexican the people himself called. And that word was used quite a bit in Colorado, to a certain extent in Chicago, passed around by the heads and the time that that even appeared in certain popular songs. Now, you know, you

00:07:47.800 - 00:08:00.600

mentioned a business of Acapulco gold, and all the labels they had, brick, for example, isn't that's in that thing praveer brick. He also uses a zigzag papers work the words in there, you know, he also works, ended up with a matchbox, which is the

00:08:00.600 - 00:08:15.480

smaller form. You know. Thing in the smallest form, of course, is the lid that sold now. Now it was a different my time, because at that time you bought a Prince Albert can full, which would today be equal about five lids, I think. And you paid about two

00:08:15.480 - 00:08:30.740

bucks for it. Well, the same piece, this thing was selling for two bucks in 1935 3433 today is going for about 2530, course, that's about average for all prices has gone up. But the difference is that in far as the distribution of pot as such,

00:08:31.760 - 00:08:44.080

that in the 30s, most of although some pot brought in from a capuca and pot brought in from all over the world, you know, to a certain extent, was so much ever growing right around in Compton, watts, not so much in Watts, but Willow Brook.

00:08:44.080 - 00:08:54.400

And Compton a place where we had big, tall corn fields. And places were in the middle of corn fields, pot could be grown without being seen too much from the outside. And the Mexican people grew it, partly for their own use, having the local

00:08:54.400 - 00:09:10.020

Mexicans here, partly for their own use, and partly to sell. You know, it was considered a cheap drunk. I know my first experience weather with it was, I guess I was about 1918, and along there. But I'll admit this right now, before we go any

00:09:10.020 - 00:09:22.880

further, that the that the scene in those days were only by very few, percentage wise, compared to what it is today. You know, today it's very common throughout the United States, and getting much more common. But among jazz musicians, among

00:09:22.880 - 00:09:35.300

the hipsters of the day, it was well known, and the songs are written, I can remember, for example, Benny Goodman came out with a tune before become Benny Goodman. In fact, it wasn't even called Benny. It was a pickup band for Victor, I believe. And

00:09:35.300 - 00:09:46.420

it was called with Jack Teagarden. So far, it was called Texas tea party. And all the words naturally. Well, Texas again, being real close to Mexico again, they has grown some wonderful part in Texas, according to everything. I don't

00:09:46.420 - 00:10:01.140

know. I never smoked anybody, if I knew of but they Mort, if this thing is coming over at all, I don't see anything coming. Let me stop and check it. Yes, it is, I hell with it, but isn't you'll just be a bit. Blob. You'll never know what's

00:10:01.140 - 00:10:15.300

happening, by the way, I'm erasing a George Ward tape that was underneath this thing, something about democracy. I've got another copy of it too, so I don't think anything could be missing Ward, except Ward speaks much more better than I do

00:10:15.660 - 00:10:29.000

sentences longer, but doesn't know as much. Now back to the pot that there were other songs, Frank at the time that come, I just off of the top of my head of all the Viper songs. The tune the guy a Viper was a guy who would not was you blowing pot.

00:10:29.000 - 00:10:42.820

Nothing else for the time. And let's see the tea songs. They were numbered. I'm talking about Tea for Two. We that was a double thing that in the 20s, T for two didn't have anything to do. It later on the Thursday the guys blow up nice and laugh,

00:10:42.820 - 00:11:01.680

course, when they play T for two, yeah, me, you know, T for the whole bunch, and so forth and so on. But the Viper songs, the drag songs, oh, I'm a guy. I'm a muggin. The muggin, all that muggin words it comes out through their eyes a mug. And

00:11:01.680 - 00:11:12.240

what those probably you don't know if you've ever even heard of these songs or these things. And I'm going right now real quick, and I can't remember them all, but there were all kinds of them. But there were a little more esoteric, a little harder

00:11:12.240 - 00:11:23.780

for the average guy to dig, except for the guy who was in, you see, of course, in the very business of being in a little bit you knew now the Mexican people, though, as you know, for years, not for their whole life, it's been a business of using

00:11:23.780 - 00:11:33.920

this stuff as it's been all for a number of people. Why should I go to shit in this all I'm saying to the southwest culture pot is nothing new. The fact that the hippies are not catching on to it, and the middle class white hippies,

00:11:33.920 - 00:11:46.360

well, I always figured out the last to catch on to anything. The Negro people, for example, right now, the hippies up here in town, that's the whole scene around sunset that was around sunset that isn't there anymore. The B ends, the love ends. And

00:11:46.420 - 00:11:59.440

next week, I think the Easter vacation next door, which I'll go see. The special thing at lesion Park is, I think it's called a love in I'm not sure what it's called this time, but everybody's supposed to bring an apple and a flower and a piece

00:11:59.440 - 00:12:10.860

of incense. Well, we've got these Provost working around here. Now, I've seen them in a couple of places. Now, the thing that hits me, most of these guys so far, and this is not too superficial of observation, because I've checked it with

00:12:10.860 - 00:12:22.640

other guys that are, you know around the scene pretty well that so many of these, these kids are, it's a big deal. They're putting on. They're going to learn something in the whole bit, you know, they're bound to learn something, and

00:12:22.640 - 00:12:35.060

they are dropping out, to a certain extent, from the the major thing. And I think that Lawrence Lipton is absolutely right when he says that this is really a continuation of the Beatrice, you know, the 50s. But you can't compare it with the

00:12:35.060 - 00:12:46.960

old bohemian scenes of the 20s, or whether he say the 30 scenes of the leftists having their, you know, they all left us had their little orgies too. You know, even though I can remember Celeste track slept with about 16 guys at one time, or

00:12:46.960 - 00:13:02.940

something like that, before they decided to the united front. That wasn't respectable. And Dorothy Welch, enough said, I, by the way, Dorothy, when I met, I saw Dorothy, oh, about a year and a half ago at a banquet. I went to a CP banquet, kind of

00:13:02.940 - 00:13:14.460

things, because rose, Julia's mother was freed from, you know, from the deportation Cruz, I had a big victory celebration. And Julie and I Weldon, so we saw a lot of people we hadn't seen for ages, most of them about 900 years old. And about the

00:13:14.460 - 00:13:26.300

youngest person there was Dorothy, except for us real youngsters, you know, us youngsters, she was boiling over, just glad to see us so forth and cylinder the arms around her, smoking her little cigar, and still trying to be a

00:13:26.360 - 00:13:37.460

young chick. Well, that's okay to be, to keep up with the youthful scene. But you know, to try to, you know, it's pretty revolving when you try to be when you're my age or her age, we're both the same age, try to act like you're 20. Don't work.

00:13:37.460 - 00:13:52.000

But we got into a conversation, because at this time was quite a bit of pot shit so forth and run around with the Dubois club. But before they, you know, tried to clean themselves up, supposedly clean in quotation marks, that didn't mean shit. And she asked

00:13:52.000 - 00:14:02.700

me, Well, did you we never had any pot or anything like this at the time, you know, when we were kids. And I explained to Dorothy right there, no, she didn't, because of her Jewish background, left wing, so forth and so on. They didn't know what

00:14:02.700 - 00:14:13.980

the shit was going on among the working class, even at that time. And they known even less now than what they knew going on, because among the workers, the Mexican workers, pot was like gin was to the white workers and us guys who are

00:14:13.980 - 00:14:28.760

close either to music scene or close to close to the Mexican agriculture workers, pot and pot and cocaine both were very common. I have in mind. I'm just thinking about slim crow. You don't know slim crow. I'm someday introduce you

00:14:28.760 - 00:14:41.980

to him. He's an old wobbly that friend of wendel's and the Met when was organizing agricultural workers. We were got shooting a shit one night, and he was telling me about how the 20s was hot. And see, he's about oh, 10 or 12 years older than I am. So

00:14:41.980 - 00:14:53.080

he's about 63, four or five in there, along there now. So he told me about how in the 20s around San Pedro, cocaine was the whole thing with the with the wobblies and all kinds these guys. They'd sniff it, you know, and get their kicks and so forth

00:14:53.080 - 00:15:04.800

and so on. The guys were really swinging for that age, and also for using POP. They added, you know, they called, didn't. Call it grief, if they call it something else. And I can't remember the name right now, what the hell they call it, but

00:15:04.800 - 00:15:18.960

I know it was the same too with my, one of my uncles, who who died some years ago, that when he was in Colorado as a youngster, and he was about this guy's he would be about this guy same age. He was working with the pea pickers, not working

00:15:18.960 - 00:15:30.440

directly, but he was involved somewhere with the pea pickers. And I mean pea pickers, not in the sense it would that. I mean real pee pickers, guys that pick peas, in other words, not just horseshit and stuff, if you know that, they're phony Tennessee

00:15:30.440 - 00:15:45.400

Williams. I mean Tennessee earning bowls off. He told me that that's where he was introduced to pot. And he was about the same age that I was at the time, and they use it a lot. Now, my brother tells me, for example, needs to my view. I

00:15:45.400 - 00:15:55.000

don't know if you knew this. I might have told you I might not have my brother lived in Mexico City, right, the Second World War for, you know, for a year. So with this aunt and uncle that were down there, and Bob was telling me the other day about

00:15:55.000 - 00:16:06.540

he was hearing these kids, Kees, because every place now, everybody in town is, you know, blowing it, or knows about it, and so forth and so on. A funny, I mean, among the kids, see, the adults still don't know what goes on in the in the radical

00:16:06.540 - 00:16:27.200

adults, no less than any goddamn body, but we're in a shit was I? Let me stop everything? Okay, Bob, my brother, go back. That's where I was, where I lost my my train of thought looking out the window, some green

00:16:27.200 - 00:16:43.240

colors, Bob tells me that everyone used it there, and they they rolled it much bigger than the sizes rolled here, what we used to call fat cigars. And they rolled it on a basis of where they'd buy one one stick. Not buy they cooked. Everybody

00:16:43.240 - 00:16:57.940

go their own for classic. Nobody bought pot in Mexico anytime. And they used this one one stick for the whole weekend. In other words, it rolled for the weekend and be like, go to days with the beers and so forth and so on. Not that they didn't drink that

00:16:57.940 - 00:17:10.200

too, but they'd roll it and then they'd smoke it and break it off. We used to call a roach when it was, you know, shortened up, and then it would last for the whole weekend. And end of this thing, they were doing their thing. And then we're

00:17:10.200 - 00:17:25.160

seeing now, back to the Acapulco goal thing. Now these kids are describing the experience fairly good. It's going to solve all their problems, so forth and so on. Of course, it's not going to solve all their problems and the hippie scene in certain ways,

00:17:25.160 - 00:17:37.220

although I I want to see their tie in. I think it can be tied in with us. The hippie scene would stay within the New Politics scene, plus with the ghetto scene can be tidy. Of course, there's no question the leadership will have to come

00:17:37.220 - 00:17:50.560

from the ghettos if it's done because the hippies have no conception of what the ghettos talking about? Well, you read the free press, you find, once in a million years, anything that's even, you know, close to being really knowing what's

00:17:50.560 - 00:18:01.260

going on here. As far as the ghetto goes, they don't know it all, and it's so fucking far ahead of them. For example, the hippies up here in Tara Ohta, LSD, now, and it's, you know, it's all over. Everybody's taking LSD, I haven't taken it

00:18:01.260 - 00:18:13.860

yet, only for the simple reason that, not that it hasn't been plenty available to me, but I'm a little old, a little sleepy right now. Now, that's bullshit. It's this I haven't had enough time. Yeah, I don't want to take LSD and then go back to the

00:18:13.860 - 00:18:25.580

fucking store the next day. I might not be able to get back to the store next day. I'm gonna have to try it sometime. And I can remember Suzy Jenna told me about her experience, whether that was three or four years ago, that from what she said

00:18:25.580 - 00:18:34.880

about the thing, it looks like you should have somebody around with you to know something when you take it, otherwise, you're gonna miss the whole goddamn bit, which is true also a part, if you don't have somebody around, you can know something

00:18:34.880 - 00:18:52.060

pot. It being a social, a social, not stimulant, yeah, not a stimulant, but a social whatever. You call it, a social hallucinogen. It it helps you a lot more, and you get a lot more things. You can hear a lot more, you can see lot more, and you

00:18:52.060 - 00:19:05.520

can laugh lot more. And this is what, after all, this is what we use easier modern things. For modern things. I mean this, well, these things has been used for years. It's what they were used for, for relaxation and appreciation. I think that we

00:19:05.520 - 00:19:17.280

could do something with these things, and should be kept But back to the hippie scene. The present time. It's all LSD and pot, course, comes into the sideways to a tube, but not near as much, I know, like on Fairfax Avenue, which has now become the

00:19:17.280 - 00:19:28.100

hippie scene all the way through. It's Fairfax Avenue from up a blue bubble above above Santa Monica down to, say, a little past firefax High School, not much further there. That's the hippie scene. That area right in there, bonded by

00:19:28.100 - 00:19:40.960

the French Quarter up above, if you know that area, long down there, and long Santa Monica. One of the reason for that, of course, is that is, that is county strip, and, you know, and it's not, it's not the city. And so therefore the sheriff

00:19:40.960 - 00:19:52.300

departments in there dealing with that, their stuff in there. And there was places where the both the county lines in the city lines overlap, so the jurisdiction becomes so confused. I know when I was working there last year, at that

00:19:52.300 - 00:20:04.200

market on Santa Monica and Fairfax, I'd go across the street, and I was in the city, and when I'd stand this side of the street, I was in the county. And so I used to. Didn't donut shop there, and there would be all the laws, all the fucking

00:20:04.200 - 00:20:14.280

fuzz from all over there, from both the cops and the sheriff's and and, you know, I got a pretty good idea what they what they were thinking in general, what kind of guys they were. They're a little bit different than they than the cops, for

00:20:14.280 - 00:20:27.620

example, that are down the south side, because I met them plenty when I was, you know, down there in the south side. Organized for those years down there. And those cops down there were mean sons of bitches. I mean, who hated of all kinds, hated the

00:20:27.620 - 00:20:40.940

blacks like, you know, like they like they are. They're real nigger hating sons of bitches. And this is you got the cops in the Fairfax business that are. You find a different thing those kids. They laugh at them, all these here hobbies, long haired

00:20:40.940 - 00:20:51.700

queers and so forth and so forth and so on. But they kind of dig the chicks, because, you know, the short skirt shit, they like to look at that as well as anybody else today, Goofy. And so they like to pat him a little bit and the whole thing. And

00:20:51.700 - 00:21:02.220

they kind of make fun of him. Of course, I'm the cops himself hung up a little bit on the homosexual, just because your cop don't make it any difference, you know. So they'll actually see, in all every guy's got long hair, a homosexual or

00:21:02.220 - 00:21:15.060

everybody's got a beard, you know, the beating, the whole shit. I don't need to repeat this to you, but of the point I'm making here is that the cops themselves are a whole lot different. If that Sunset Strip scene had been transferred to

00:21:15.120 - 00:21:26.900

the ghetto, and the kids in the ghetto did what the Sunset Strip in, pushing the cops around and acting like they you know, generally we're doing, man, it would been, there would have been a, you know, a real fucking bloodbath that would made the

00:21:26.900 - 00:21:36.680

Civil War look like nothing, especially after, you know, after the uprising of a year ago. Of course, they're not that there wouldn't have been retaliation. There will be another thing about the young kids in the ghetto right now,

00:21:36.680 - 00:21:47.200

because I was talking to as well, I was talking to Levis, and he's still close, by the way, he works very close to Ron Karenga and all the nationalists down there. And I'm really impressed with Levi Kingston. I am so sorry I never met him

00:21:47.200 - 00:22:01.200

before, although he said he was here at the house, I never met him. And he looks to me, looks exactly like Johannes, and with his little beard and little cap he wears, his eyes are almost exactly the same, which is by the awful fucking point is

00:22:01.200 - 00:22:19.500

usual. I'm 1000 miles off, but I'm by myself and speaking rapidly, as you can tell, let's see Kees Levi make the point that in the south either if they use what stuff they're using, they're either on pot, using pot, or red and whites, and

00:22:19.620 - 00:22:31.280

they're laying off with shit, by the way. Shit is heroin is laying off. They not using LSD at all. That's out. The only blacks are using LSD are up here and with a hippie scene and no, so goddamn far and few between Frank, it's even less than it

00:22:31.280 - 00:22:45.460

was before. Now let's see. I covered that pretty goddamn Well, I guess. I don't know how the hell I got on that thing. I got some little notes that I took down I wanted to pass off. Let's see how far. I got plenty of tape. I've made another tape

00:22:45.460 - 00:23:02.100

on that small recorder, a small record, tape I got, but that was month ago, and that was before you and Stephanie split, and I was talking to both of you. I should have said it anyway, as I said, I mean, you told me on the phone, but it wasn't, wasn't,

00:23:02.400 - 00:23:15.180

wasn't anything good anyway, there's nothing, just any board. So I got rid of the pot songs. I think one of my points pot songs are the 30s in the 40s. Reason I want to that in something because I thought you that the idea of pot songs being what

00:23:15.180 - 00:23:29.120

they are being something new, or it's not exactly new, but it is new in the sense that it's listened to by 1000s of people and kids, millions of kids, and millions of kids digging what they are, you know, digging the words. That wasn't true in the

00:23:29.120 - 00:23:46.180

30s, and I don't think was true in the 20s. Okay, now let's see. I guess, in general, in the letter, Julius tells you about Bob. We had this business, Bob Bigelow and Alice coming over and bringing Levi Kingston. And we I hadn't seen Bob. Oh Christ.

00:23:46.180 - 00:24:13.020

I guess the last time I'd seen Bob was at the either the handy concert in the Golden Bear or the or the concert where we saw at UCLA, where the bass player, oh, boy. Oh, my mind is going, Yeah, try to think of the name the bass player, Charlie Mingus.

00:24:13.020 - 00:24:26.180

Was that. I think that was what we saw. That was a goddamn good concert. At Mingus concert, they won the best concerts I'd ever heard. And far as the concert goes. Because usually I don't get much out of concerts, because Mingus dialog with some

00:24:26.180 - 00:24:39.860

white professor in the crowd who was drunk and who challenged me Mingus to some kind of words, and he just took it off and started talking. It was a big discussion went right on in the damn auditorium for about 20 minutes to half hour after the

00:24:40.640 - 00:24:59.920

after the after the concert was over, and in one place, he says, Welch, Hey Charlie, you don't play. So forth, hey Mingus, you don't play. And Mingus, just a minute. Mr. Mingus to you. You know this kind of bit, which was, in other words, Mingus is.

00:25:00.290 - 00:25:19.490

Nobody's a fool. You can read this article that in the clippings we sent you from Ralph Gleason that the bit on Mingus and the base broken up. I guess you know about that. By the way, Mingus is back in New York already. He's not in Mill

00:25:19.490 - 00:25:36.500

Valley, at least, that's what John told me. John told me, John handy. He told me that he saw Mingus in in New York. We just before he left it, before he came out here. I bought to Bob Mallea, Bob Ellis and I Julia went to hear me. Shelley man,

00:25:36.620 - 00:25:54.100

Saturday night, night before last. Shelly man, my ass, went to Shelley mad to hear, to hear Johannes and his new group. And Bob is digs, yes, it, by the way, digs, you real great too. And so does Allison. I think they're a wonderful couple. I

00:25:54.100 - 00:26:08.760

Alison Dodie, I think that's real great. Sorry, we haven't seen more of them, but you know what the kind thing? How much can you see? And so forth and so forth and so on, get out. But handy sounded that. Handy group sounded good for

00:26:08.760 - 00:26:20.760

consider it's only been together for a week. Feather reviewed it, and he reviewed it to almost the last day before they closed. But he said handy asked him to review it that way, and he might have that because he know the group being so new, they're just

00:26:20.760 - 00:26:32.000

getting together. I think the guitar player was picked up, no doubt, in in New York. And I can't remember his name. Not only gonna try to look it up now, but he's well, pretty well known, not as, not a, you know, not well known to everybody, but

00:26:32.000 - 00:26:42.820

apparently, well, only musician, because I see he had a lot of friends there, knew him, but he plays wonderful guitar. I Please think he beats a hell of this Jerry Hans. I'll comparison, for my money, that the sound he gets because, you know, Han had that

00:26:42.820 - 00:26:58.660

sound of kind of a cowboy sound, or Han come out of a cowboy field at one time, and I still saw him that sometimes I still, I still heard that cowboy sound in there, about it a year ago, talking to handy to when he was a Golden Bear. We were sitting

00:26:58.660 - 00:27:11.220

out there in the pad outside he and I talking in about the Orange County scene, about scenes in general. And he was telling me about Jerry, because I know I remember Jerry, and Jerry remember me a little bit, and he was really praising Jerry

00:27:11.220 - 00:27:21.440

high sky, that Jerry could play anything now, I think that he was, I don't know if he was putting me on or not, but I never felt that Jerry Hans was that great of a guitarist. I thought that he, you know, played good for a white guy, but

00:27:21.860 - 00:27:35.480

and had a lot of drive, and, you know, make a lot of big sound, but I you know that that was all. It wasn't the taste for guitar that either Montgomery can play. Oh, well, hell. There's no sense of this guy plays a lot of guitar, and then

00:27:35.480 - 00:27:47.680

he's got Bobby Hutchinson on vibes, and this Hutchison, this kid, is just, well, kid, he's 26 years old, I guess you know that, but he's a wonderful vice player. He and Roy Ayers are. They're really the the vibe players, for my money, all

00:27:47.680 - 00:28:05.700

right, I've heard those young white guys, you know, those two white guys, both the older one and the young guy that did that shit with Stan Getz and McFarland and, you know? But it ain't the same, not what for heirs and and and Hutchinson,

00:28:05.700 - 00:28:19.500

because these two guys, both in person and and on record. And I feel in person much more, play everything. They can. Play any style. And I think they play any style. They play everything with good taste, from avant garde to if necessary, almost anything

00:28:19.500 - 00:28:36.920

can blend real. And that's true with heirs too. And heirs are very young guy, you know, he's only, I think, 2324 years old. And I hate to use the overwork word soul, but they really, they really play with her god damn thing, with feeling that's there

00:28:37.280 - 00:28:51.160

only thing bad about hearing anything in Shelley man, just not that fucking cold goddamn fucking audiences that wonder, anything happens now, it was true that because John was handy was there, that there were a few more blacks than there has been.

00:28:51.160 - 00:29:03.000

Oh, it's funny, because, you know, handy hasn't been the most popular man among the ghetto, in the sense that his records are played over and over, but he's played more, and now he's starting to get a few much more blacks in it than anybody else.

00:29:03.000 - 00:29:17.580

I mean, then he had before, see, I business wanting to fill in spaces with any kind of fucking words. I put in something that don't matter. Hill is shit. And I think what I said, I know it didn't mean anything. Hans group now is composed of the three

00:29:17.580 - 00:29:35.060

blacks, and that still got the two Canadians, which I never did think was real good the drummer or the bass player. And that's, again, I sometimes question Hans taste, because I thought that drummer that he had in a freedom band had not the technique. This

00:29:35.060 - 00:29:46.900

kid has got the white man's technique, you know, give me the technique. But I thought he had a lot better feeling and push things a little bit. But I never feel this drummer pushes anything. I think he covers up, has some of the real fine stuff.

00:29:46.900 - 00:29:57.460

I felt that when I heard handy, and I've heard him all over in Hollywood Bowl, all kinds of shit in places I've heard him. I taped the Hollywood Bowl concert for handy, by the way, this little tape recorder, and I gave it to him in the night. It

00:29:57.460 - 00:30:08.940

promised him to him a year ago, and and. Just told him, I got to send it up north, and I didn't, and he told me that he just couldn't get along with Michael White. That's the reason he split. Now, I felt Michael added to the group, but this new group

00:30:08.940 - 00:30:20.180

is, well, I mean, it added for making a different sound. You know that fiddle player, Michael White, by the way, Michael White, the fiddle player is, is the nephew of Duke, right? You know, remember that a Duke, right? That mill hated so bad

00:30:20.180 - 00:30:34.160

and worked with the guys speeded up that black as real as a real panic there, because Duke couldn't play shit well, Michael was a good musician. Handy. Says he's, they're the both. He's losing both the drummer and the bass player, and he thinks he's

00:30:34.160 - 00:30:45.640

got another basis lined up. And he's, maybe he's got a chance of getting a drummer. He's not sure he'll, of course, he'll get one. But, I mean, get what he wants. And I mentioned to him, when I went back to say, good night for the final time, when, you know,

00:30:45.640 - 00:30:59.620

I had a little discussion about it. Mentioned about Tony Bailey, who's not a very he was still working in town, you know, Tony plays a hell of a lot of drums for my money. And he didn't know Tony, and he already thanked me for information. Well, probably,

00:30:59.620 - 00:31:09.180

I mean, yeah, pricing, what? This fucking white, oh, fake, you know, tell him how to run this for run this fucking bad. I wasn't, of course, I just happened to mention it was Guy Tony, and he was, you know, played with Dolphy for so many

00:31:09.180 - 00:31:21.720

years. And I know that, see, handy would like to be accepted as part of the avenue guard. But, you know, as yet, he's a handy is a funny guy on this music scene, very honest guy feeling I love his music. I like to hear him either. I don't

00:31:21.720 - 00:31:34.640

think there's anybody that blow anybody that blows any more Aldo, a lot of ways, than he does. I still think he's completely tonal all the time. He is not at ever, at any time as I've ever heard him go out of tonality in some form or

00:31:34.640 - 00:31:52.240

another. He's, of course, it's all, most of his all of this stuff is modal anymore. And of course, what guys isn't. But in other words, he doesn't like, you know, the stuff that Shep puts out now, I mean, in person, I the records, stuff on records.

00:31:52.240 - 00:32:09.240

I'm not so sure. I don't think I like it. I like to listen to it, and I've listened it over, but I've on person, it always is so much better. I know Shepherd struck me as so much better in person when I heard him, Weldon Rudd, than it did on the

00:32:09.240 - 00:32:21.200

records. I've enjoyed some of the stuff with shepherd did on the record, some of the humor he's thrown in, his quotations, he's thrown in and so forth and so on. It's very good. And I know he can play every style, both in the piano and the rest

00:32:21.200 - 00:32:33.800

of stuff. I'd sure like to hear him sometime, you know, in a small group, just let him just be playing piano like Mingus. Did you know on that record, he made roommates up north who just played piano, just played as he fell, as he went along. Because

00:32:33.800 - 00:32:45.700

I imagine Shep can play practically every style, which surprised me very well, because there's very few guys that I know that double and play that well on both instruments. In fact, there's damn few. Although everybody plays piano today,

00:32:45.700 - 00:33:00.660

there's no musician either plays piano or vibes, even from drummers today. That's what other ones a big difference between musicians of the day in the musicians the 20s the 30s, these guys understand whether they understand it in the words,

00:33:00.660 - 00:33:15.960

they understand it from the sounds, the history of music pretty well, at least, I think they do there. In other words, the musicians a hell of a lot better now than they were in the 30s and the 20s and 40s, my friend, better educated, better

00:33:15.960 - 00:33:26.420

understanding more hip business of going the coal trainers have been pointing a lot. I agree with you. Coltrane had been pointing a lot of the pointing a lot of the way. Now I haven't got to have him like a son of a bitch. I haven't bought that

00:33:26.420 - 00:33:37.700

last record yet, but I've been pretty short in cash and buying anything, you know, the kids are costing a whole lot of dough and and, you know, it's one of those things. I haven't been buying records. I think I will buy a couple, but I figured you'll get

00:33:37.700 - 00:33:52.360

back here eventually you'll have all the fucking records so I can tape him if I want to listen to him. Well, that gets rid of that thing that got rid of the handy. But handy, by the way, always ask about you, and once you know what's going on, I didn't tell

00:33:52.360 - 00:34:06.420

him anything about the didn't have a chance to talk to him too, you know, too much he was, you know, he hop in tables, and he saw me come over, but he I have a chance of telling them anything about the business between you and Shelley because

00:34:06.420 - 00:34:17.160

that shit was so bad. God Almighty, I felt like going, Yeah, fucking Shelley man. It was such a calm down. You hear Shelley man? Bob and Alice had never heard Shelley Mann, but they figured he wasn't nowhere. And then the one thing that

00:34:17.160 - 00:34:26.120

Alice asked me out the bat, she says, didn't he ever have any Negroes in this group? And I said, nobody. I can remember, by the way, russe Freeman is not Freeman is not with a group right now. I think Russell traveling. He's got another

00:34:26.120 - 00:34:37.760

white guy that sound like Danny zettlin and Shetland, or whatever fuck his name is. The last time I heard handy, I heard handy with Danny zettlin. Yeah, they were the two groups were going back and forth, and that Danny's shit. He stick to

00:34:37.760 - 00:34:53.140

psychiatry, leave the fucking music alone. Was one. Bill Levis is enough, and anyway, but this man sounded so bad. I you just can't believe how bad man sound, not just because the prejudice of what he weighed that fucking letter. You know how we've

00:34:53.140 - 00:35:04.260

always felt about chilly man, and in fact, I'm probably anti semitic between anti white makes it even worse. But you know, he. Up there feeling, always, feeling every fucking thing. And he's not feeling shit, nothing's coming out there. All he's

00:35:04.260 - 00:35:14.280

sitting is those fucking horses asses, you know, those horses he's got riding on off. And the good thing I liked about was a both Alice and Bob felt the same way. They didn't know anything about his horses, but I told him about his horses. That horses

00:35:14.280 - 00:35:26.600

thing, you know, they could hardly that fit in just real fame. You know, Johannes Shelley, man, a horseman, nothing, instead of the harpist, Shelly man, a horse's ass. That's what it should be. Of

00:35:26.600 - 00:35:39.440

course you can get a Shelly man. Eileen Kaufman, I guess you'll better read it by now the review, she has a zabao Whatever for that Hungarian refugee guitar player who's been placed down in memory lane. And by the way, Memory Lane is a real bring

00:35:39.440 - 00:35:52.360

down a lot of ways. It's first place. It's run by Mr. Charles with black front all the way through. You know, it's in the West Adams district, and black people, there's a crowd is generally mostly black. It's a pretty good, pretty good crowd.

00:35:52.360 - 00:36:03.360

In fact, a few times out what they want to Joe Gillard, I think once and somebody else, once, was a real good feeling inside the place, except that there was quite a bit of middle class toughness. It was different than different than,

00:36:03.360 - 00:36:19.020

say this, some of the places like that I'd been in the ghetto where I heard music, you felt a difference on it, but the place is now gone. The Mr. Charles got it down to a place where it is become more and more whites going to Leonard feather makes a

00:36:19.020 - 00:36:30.140

scene regularly. You know, the places where Leonard feather makes us because he's now full time for the times. You know, he writes another article about every other day in the times. And everyone, I'm stink except for that one article, and what

00:36:30.140 - 00:36:40.840

you quote him on in down Beatrice, you know, that article there was pretty that was the best article ever saw him, most honest article. I mean, the most article ever showed it had any fucking sense at all. Me and Marshall McLuhan. I'm getting

00:36:40.840 - 00:37:00.180

all over. Marshall McLuhan, hitting from mosaics from all sides. That's me now, hitting from all over. Where the hell was on that one. Let me go back and stop. Okay, I listened to a few minutes of it too. Good. God, if

00:37:00.180 - 00:37:15.840

you can understand it, I'm going way too rapidly again. But you know, that's, I guess you get the feeling of me. I was at Eileen Kaufman. Was there interview that's in this last week's free pricks, the free prick press. What do you call

00:37:16.620 - 00:37:28.400

it? She was interviewing zabaz on, I guess you read it. But anyway, was it's made me so goddamn at this business about he looks down on Tony Williams, he looks down on Elvis Johannes. He looks down on everybody because, you know, they're still

00:37:28.400 - 00:37:41.140

doing the same old four four thing. But while the Mamas and Papas, you know, and so forth, and so I have, I admitted, within the within the field, the White Rock, what he would have caused, there are some good sons of Beatrice Mallea, and they did

00:37:41.140 - 00:37:53.920

a good job, and a good job. I mean, they've been a very interesting job. And they brought in some forms that are coming from the Near East and the Far East, or whatever fucking East you want to call that from, and brought in some

00:37:53.920 - 00:38:07.380

new instruments. And sometimes it seems like they're going way back to pre Baroque music. I hear. These are sounds coming out from what little I can remember the goddamn stuff when I listened to it recently, it is some good sounds. But to put

00:38:07.380 - 00:38:20.420

down to say that that a Tony Williams or that an Elvin Jones, all airplanes four, four means that their goddamn zabalao has an ears that goes right along with Kaufman, because Kaufman quotes it writes you, oh fucker. I didn't talk about it. It's

00:38:20.420 - 00:38:34.400

ridiculous. That asshole is a typical thing of what I think of this so called hippie scene that's around there. It's just not making it, although there are a lot of honest guys in that scene. And as I said before that, something will come out of

00:38:34.580 - 00:38:50.020

that scene, because the young kids, the young kids, especially as you listen to the other side of this record, are you listening with Frankie and and the Cuban refugee. They call me a real good kid. This kid, these kids are awake. Are plenty

00:38:50.020 - 00:39:01.080

alert, and they, they admit they know some of these four. Let's, let's take a look at the hippie scenes where the underground press is showing up in the high schools for present time. Now this could be blown up as a footnote, like Della Reese blew

00:39:01.080 - 00:39:14.340

up Della Reese della Cooper blew up in her little Watts pamphlet really stunk to high heaven, a little thing so called Austria, said, and, you know, and if that's all that's left over for future historians like yourself to dig out, because most

00:39:14.340 - 00:39:26.360

inarticulate guys will not write pamphlets and will not write letters, and they will not have a chance to know anything about it. I pity anybody who tries to analyze the Watts revolution the early Watts revolution, from such pamphlets are left around

00:39:26.360 - 00:39:45.100

because it's just so much lies and so much shit. You wouldn't get any feeling at all. I guess you know this, the whole bitter historians have a tough time. That's all you know. But Where the hell am I again? But the hips, these are the kids like

00:39:45.100 - 00:39:55.240

Frankie and Ricky and these whites like that to come out of the high schools like Belmonts and the schools like these. And there are plenty of these schools different, say, than the Marshall scene. The Marshall scene here, they got a little

00:39:55.240 - 00:40:05.800

underground press already, you know, and they got a little underground press in university. And that little underground press. The only place where there's a little underground press worth of shit is in Venice, where it's got a working

00:40:05.800 - 00:40:16.720

class population. But there's also around Venice, a number of these here guys who from sons and sons and daughters of the Beatrice, to a certain extent, that are around there too, I imagine. But so I'd have to examine that to find out for

00:40:16.720 - 00:40:28.520

sure, Venice is the only healthy scene that's got any underground press coming out at all, so called underground press that's among the high schools here. The KPFK has this underground kid. I imagine he's got old he's like some of the old former ycler who

00:40:28.520 - 00:40:43.300

are old enough to be fathers of ycellers that that's what this KPFK kid sounds like over the thing on his underground scene. And, you know, each guy's got his own thing, so forth and so on. And he does his thing, and I do my thing, and this thing here

00:40:43.300 - 00:40:58.180

goes on a wall, baby. It's cool. And there are very few Mario's and even Mario in a discussion with Mario. The last few times that I've seen him, it's been some time now since I've seen the last time he was putting down this scene for the hippie

00:40:58.180 - 00:41:08.880

scene now for what you know, has been awful late. Now I'm not putting it all the way down. I'm not and I don't want to get put in that fucking bag that I'm putting it all the way down, because there are these guys coming out that you don't for

00:41:08.880 - 00:41:21.740

the different schools that are going to do something. And it's true that many times it's the more articulate middle class kids that first put it in the press to gather papers and write it, and usually it's a Jewish middle class kid is coming from

00:41:21.740 - 00:41:36.200

the Silver Lake District or the or the Griffith Park District or the university district or the Beverly Hills district or what have it. And these kids are doing something to us. It's good. I mean, they're at least not walking the Seder in the old

00:41:36.200 - 00:41:50.860

methods, which is fine, and there's change, etc. They're listening this is good jazz, and some of it of us at the same time where this, where it's really happening in the ghetto, these kids don't know that. They don't know it. And I think

00:41:50.860 - 00:42:03.300

you'll, you'll feel that when you hear, listen to what and I was real surprised, and I'm very proud, because I don't think we try to influence the kids in the sense of, you know, completely. But you listen to this Cuban kids, Julia mentions a letter

00:42:03.300 - 00:42:13.980

just a bit. These kids are not always influenced by their parents. In fact, kids, a lot of times, are not influenced by their parents, except the opposite. If my parents want to do this, I want to do the other thing. And I was real pleased to

00:42:13.980 - 00:42:24.740

hear these kids be able to analyze the Motown sounds and the other sounds the way that they analyze them, not only musically, which I listen to. And I, by the way, I listen to all this stuff all the time. I either got KPFK or Kees ja on

00:42:24.920 - 00:42:35.780

all the time when I ride back and forth between here and Linley, and I hear the sounds. I can't understand all the words, because I never been able to understand all the words. I never been able to even sing the words to any song, even when I

00:42:35.780 - 00:42:48.340

was in the youngster because I go over syllable so fast I don't even hear now, if anybody can understand me, I don't want the fuck I'm racing here for now. I've got all the time in the world except Julia says, Get this goddamn tape in the goddamn

00:42:48.340 - 00:43:01.860

mail. And she thought it was going to go in blank when I thought I should least tell you this for all the fine letters and everything else you sent us. And top of that, I have enjoyed your articles in jazz very much. It helped a lot. And I've been

00:43:01.860 - 00:43:16.860

reading. Just started to read before I started taping your, your business, your your notes here to what the hell is his name? The son of a bitch. No, Jenna, he's here, whatever his name is. And then does read good. I have only got to page

00:43:16.860 - 00:43:27.020

four, but I want to read the rest of it. I'm not going to comment on that. Now, by the way, remember your jazz quarterly magazines that you let me grease and stuff. We found those sons of bitches. So I don't know if we ever told you

00:43:27.020 - 00:43:39.140

not. So we got them anyway. We won't send them to you, because you'll be here soon enough. So unless you actually need them about well, just a few odds and ends here rather rapidly, because I, oh, I got quite a bit some of the I think I forgot

00:43:39.140 - 00:43:52.600

something I was starred on, but the hell with him on the kids records back to that thing there, and they're talking. I thought it was very interesting that they kept the music going on all the time behind him, because this is very typical of

00:43:52.600 - 00:44:06.240

every teenager I know. He can't talk unless he's got that transistor going. Now that bothers me to a certain extent, but I've got used to it too, and it's background music. A lot of times, because these kids are actually listening to it,

00:44:06.240 - 00:44:19.080

either. Was this article, a paper about the four kids that have been killed on his railroad tracks, not, you know, here in Los Angeles. And for each time they thought they were deaf, that the kid, and each time it's been found, the kid has had a

00:44:19.080 - 00:44:30.920

transistor radio, course, wasn't plugged me here at the train hitting the ass because, you know, you know, knocked it out. So more likely he had that transistor plugged in his ear going walking down the tracks and and not that you couldn't

00:44:30.920 - 00:44:39.500

hear from the other ear, because you hear, but the concentration, I noticed this in the store. The kids come in the store, you know, to buy something somewhere, then they got that transistor in their ear, and they got that little thing, you

00:44:39.500 - 00:44:50.740

know, I wasn't even hit the first on that there thing, that little thing, I thought it was, little thing, I thought it was a earplug. I thought, how come I see so many deaf kids? I never used to see that. Then I found out that they have a little, you

00:44:50.740 - 00:45:03.600

know, little, little, small radio they keep inside their their pocket, and they go to school and stick that thing on. In fact, someone got a disguise so well that you can't see the damn little cord. It goes for. It goes from the from the from

00:45:03.600 - 00:45:17.940

the radio, up to their ear, and they sit in class now, especially with the long hair, you can't see it covers up the goddamn the line and everything else. So let's after in class. And I don't blame them, the way these fucking classes are put in

00:45:17.940 - 00:45:35.600

school. Forget it, baby. It'd be better off to listen to the transistor, but we do see Wendell and Marcus very damn few occasion wendel's Kid, Flynn, because become a first class jewel out of Linley. Of course, that was to be expected in the

00:45:35.600 - 00:45:47.260

sense that Wendell didn't understand him and didn't try to understand Flynn. He couldn't understand Flynn Weldon is a great guy. He's among one of my best friends, and he understands the black question better than almost anybody. Don't understand

00:45:47.260 - 00:45:58.840

black music, he doesn't understand art. He doesn't understand hip boy. You know how to mean. He's very conservative. Actually, it was, well, he admits to me these things. We see him very seldom, because all hate, all he does. He and

00:45:58.840 - 00:46:10.320

Margaret is every weekend they go their cabin in Big Bear, their scene, and they worked on that son of a bitch. And I never can get off when I say on a Saturday. So we went up one time we went up, I think last Fourth of July, Weldon, why? I mean

00:46:10.320 - 00:46:22.580

Julian, I and the kids and their kids and and I gotten up some not a beef with him, but an argument over the fact that Flynn was the radio at the table. Flynn was had the radio know that a little transistor, and had it going pretty good,

00:46:22.580 - 00:46:32.840

and wendon Turn that goddamn shit off, you know, like that. And I could see that, you know, it was hurting Flynn's feeling, because Flynn felt out of place anyway. You know, there's a whole scene in, you know, another father so for and so,

00:46:32.840 - 00:46:43.120

and he used to marry Weldon much. I think he still didn't marry Weldon, but I don't think Weldon admired him, because Flynn wasn't in the mold of a Wendel. Actually, in the Weldon, Flynn isn't interested in the same intellectual ideas, the

00:46:43.120 - 00:46:55.240

same way Flynn that Wendell is interested in tomorrow's all kinds of shit in early How could he be expected to do that with a mother like he's had most of the time in his general background and his regular father we didn't know at all. And

00:46:58.300 - 00:47:10.680

in fact, wendell's own kids are not what I would call very hip kids either. I think when it's hip, more hip than Wendel, I'm in lot of ways, but Flynn, there's Mike. Our kids put him down too. They say, Well, you know, he's, his whole scene is

00:47:10.680 - 00:47:25.460

to be drinking right now and to and be getting chicks and, well, which is cool enough for getting a chick market do too. But I mean that he can't, he's not really in fighting. You know, you get this kind of stuff like that Welch. That's the kind of

00:47:25.460 - 00:47:35.420

stuff that you have in fucking Orange County. What else can you have? He's come up here areas around here. We're like in here, where all the Mexicans and the horror kill the kids called beans, and the flips and the blood. That isn't only thing

00:47:35.420 - 00:47:47.380

that goes on. In fact, there's very less of that goes on here than anywhere else. But so we don't see them too often. I saw one little couple times last week for the first time along, while he was out of a job, for the first time, he'd been making

00:47:47.380 - 00:48:01.020

fabulous money. You know him, when he gets a chance to get a job, he works like he's crazy, making four or 500 bucks a week sometimes. But I heap weep. I promise we try to make it up there sometimes. Are there and see him market board of shit I'm

00:48:01.020 - 00:48:13.920

making hardly standard. I mean, she said, Oh, not Kenneth person, if you can get that level. But it's hard to get understand that level all the time. You know, she gossip level shit so forth. So don't see him too much. And well, I do see

00:48:13.920 - 00:48:26.540

wonder. I get him pushed. I got him to finally read. I got bought and made him buy a copy of Marshall McLuhan's medium in the massage. He had never even really heard very much about Marshall McLuhan. I think he read a little bit in ramparts

00:48:26.540 - 00:48:44.440

about him. And what really surprised me that so many people know so little about Marshall McLuhan. I've been reading him now for over a year and a half or two years myself and I read references of him all way back as far as 1957 to 56 in doing

00:48:44.440 - 00:48:56.380

his thing. And I, by the way, did you catch that program yesterday in television, the McLuhan program? I thought it was the greatest thing I've ever seen on television. One of the great things I've seen on television, at least, seen a

00:48:56.380 - 00:49:08.700

couple of good things recently, but that was, I thought that was wonderful. And I wish I'd been able to see that first, before I read all his books. Now, I had a lot of trouble with the Gutenberg book. All I read, understanding media first I

00:49:08.700 - 00:49:18.420

understand it should be the other way around, according to way guys. You know, it's kind of a bit now, it's so hard supposedly, understand him. I had trouble with him, but less trouble than most people, because he jumps around like I

00:49:18.420 - 00:49:30.680

jump around in his thinking. And that's about the way I do. Maybe we're both a couple idiots. The reason probably why I like him very well. I think he's got quite a bit in the ball, not only in the ball. I think this guy is pointing out stuff that

00:49:30.920 - 00:49:44.560

needs to be pointed out very badly. Six or eight months ago, Johannes, and you know, from the SWP, was out here, and I happen to mention Marshall McLuhan. He Joe had just come back and back in Europe, and some of the stuff he's been saying, some of his

00:49:44.680 - 00:49:55.240

articles, and I thought, you know, catch up with it, because there's been nothing at all in the militant or anything like, you know, or the people's world, or any of the left wing press about him, except in the ramparts, been some and the

00:49:55.240 - 00:50:08.160

hippie press, I haven't played him up too much. I caught him, you know, other places, all over commercials. Off PTA magazines, all kinds of shitty Beatrice he's writing. He writes for and now I looked up his different articles, but I asked and Hans

00:50:08.160 - 00:50:20.660

Werner Henze off a guy like Hans, and I imagine Ward has heard them, because Ward, I don't know if you've ever read his stuff or not, but it's well worth reading. Marshall McLuhan is a man that that it wouldn't hurt to spend some time with

00:50:20.660 - 00:50:37.280

reading and thinking about a lot of ways he is does some thinking the same way, and it carries on the thinking that Leslie White did. But you see, these guys put these guys down. I mean, the so called Marcus, because McLuhan and Leslie white aren't Marcus,

00:50:37.340 - 00:50:48.580

broom, broom, Marcus. You know what I mean. They don't proclaim to be Marxist, but in their writing, I find more Marxism among these guys, of what I think is Marxism, than I do in the so called Marxist writing most the time. Now, I read

00:50:48.580 - 00:51:03.900

George's, and I don't put George down, because George is a great, good guy. You know, I don't think I got quite the feeding form that you have. Still a wonderful guy. I mean, I feel he's pretty square in a whole lot of ways, including this

00:51:03.900 - 00:51:21.500

philosophy and his knowledge on history and science. I don't feel that he really swings, like some guys do. I mean, could be he's always better than a ship that you find her on the CP, but shit, that ain't no comparison. But mcluhans mechanical bride,

00:51:21.500 - 00:51:35.780

which is the only thing I haven't read completely, because you can't buy that, and I'd only looked at it in the library. If I think you can start from that reading from that on in, you get a pretty good understanding media. I thought was very good.

00:51:36.020 - 00:51:46.540

And the Gutenberg thing, I thought was good, but it's a little bit harder for me to get to get to and I think I'll go back and reread that there, just to find out. I don't know how the hell I get over there, but anyway, I got there somewhere,

00:51:46.540 - 00:51:58.840

and I covered up that point. Covered the Bob point. Oh, we're going off to here yesterday. Phone up Tim Harding to find out, you know, put a little thing on To find out how the thing is with you. He said he's here. He's heard from you a

00:51:58.840 - 00:52:15.180

couple of the first time ever phone Tim Harding in my life, and Tim, he said that they've he's been on the outside that the guy was head of the department, the history department there, and it didn't look too good right now for a

00:52:15.180 - 00:52:32.540

job. And although the cuts apparently been restored for a while, and the cuts were cut. They cut pretty deep in the history department too. You know, Reagan head. Reagan head. Reagan would had cut into the history department. Apparently,

00:52:32.540 - 00:52:44.680

these cuts have been restored, but the department head is against him. Tim and he don't see eye to eye on anything. Tim said he taught. Tell me, talk to me more about tonight. We're gonna go over to hear him. I think we are, if I were not too

00:52:44.680 - 00:52:55.660

tired to hear him. He's playing at the ice house with his group. His group is very much expanded now. They got dancers with it and all kinds of stuff, and we haven't seen them since. Oh, you know, I guess we told you about that about a year and a half

00:52:55.660 - 00:53:08.460

ago, something there. Oh, he tell we heard him. I was surprised. Tim has got place pretty good those he's got his thing down, pretty good. What he does, he still can't swing any blues or plenty that kind of feeling. But as far as that

00:53:08.460 - 00:53:20.120

Mexican music kind of bit, you know, and I that's the Mexican music has got no relationship with the Cuban music. I mean, no relationship with the black, Mexican, South American way you want to call it music. Lisa, I can't see any relationship in

00:53:20.120 - 00:53:39.440

sound wise, on it, I hear a lot of what I hear more is the sounds of what I consider Indian music. To a certain extent, I've heard hardly all know Indian music my life. I mean, I'm North American, South American Indian, but linked up with a certain of

00:53:39.440 - 00:53:52.960

the influences that came out of Spain and Portugal and places like that. You know, I hear those sounds, even a bit of flamenco, not flamenco, because flamenco has got black. And I don't hear that in awesome and Tim's music I'm talking about

00:53:53.200 - 00:54:04.620

now, there's other music in Mexico I hear all the time where there's black, not in Mexico, but especially from the islands where the black comes in, much more important. And I think that's true in Brazil. I think that that in his Brazilian music

00:54:04.620 - 00:54:17.160

that he plays, it's a music from way up in the mountains, high mountains up there, which has got very little influence of the black on it. I don't know if Tim would agree with me, but from what my just from my ear alone, that's where I would have like

00:54:17.160 - 00:54:28.220

Ohta. But anyway, we're gonna seem tonight, see I sound and also get a chance to talk to him about anything, Mort, I'll put pressure on him to try to, you know. Well, he said one thing that kind of kind of confused me. He said, Oh, you could get a

00:54:28.220 - 00:54:37.700

job, all right, as an instructor or something like that, but that's not a good way to start. I didn't know what he meant by that. It means it. I figured if you, if you get any way to eat, you know, when you're out here to get started, it's a good way

00:54:37.700 - 00:54:49.780

to start, but I imagine you can get a job here. Ain't no question here. But anyway, get your ass out of that there Pittsburgh and come back now. I think I got on the question the role of the popular song in the 30s and the 40s and the 50s. And

00:54:49.780 - 00:55:07.800

I think the difference to a certain extent, excuse me, there's the mailman. Yep, that. Was the mailman back. I hope this working. I see the little red light working. It's been about an hour break. I had

00:55:07.800 - 00:55:22.940

the mailman had a letter from UCLA for Frankie, $20 for parking. You know, this kind of shit. A few more $20 like this. The only people here, Tim Harding at the Ice House, from my house. And then so I read the down Beatrice Mallea too. And

00:55:22.940 - 00:55:33.800

feathers got a pretty interesting article, and you'll see it alright in the what the jazz reader thinks? I mean, there's classifications, you know, from this kind of thing, but real shit, not sociology, not jazz, nothing else you know,

00:55:33.800 - 00:55:47.200

feather with this damn stuff. Well, you see it for yourself, but they have got this article I've noticed on Chicago, pretty interesting. But in between times, I've got a can of beer right now, take a sip of it. Doctor said I should lay off of

00:55:47.200 - 00:56:06.780

that shit, but I can't go down smoking pot all the time, or, you know, whiskey, so probably put me to sleep. But during the lunch hour the break, I finished your article. Suzy, read real smooth. Frank, it's a real good article, and real part, I know

00:56:06.780 - 00:56:23.000

that I can write that. Well, besides the point, I think it's, it's it's so damn true. That's the main thing. It's honest, and it's a truth show it's true that to try, I don't have a very high opinion of most of Trotsky's today that I read or that I

00:56:23.000 - 00:56:33.260

know, unfortunately, especially the ones here in Los Alamos, I don't think there's a hell of a lot of difference between them throughout the rest of nation, least from discussion with Weldon, there are a few good guys here and there. But I mean,

00:56:33.380 - 00:56:51.640

like years ago, if the Revolution should come tomorrow, they'd be lucky to be able to organize a hot dog stand and but actually Trotsky, and to a certain extent, Cannon and and the president Trotsky is today, could contribute something to a

00:56:51.640 - 00:57:05.400

real discussion, and we get that one thing out in the open, once and for all, and get the ideas of Trotsky to see what the ideas of Trotsky actually are, as you have pointed out, because they are relevant today, and you're absolutely correct that for I

00:57:05.400 - 00:57:19.980

was a white man's writing on nationalism. Trots Kees did the best job. Was anybody rose cannon told me, by the way, I don't know if you knew it, but rose cannon has cancer, and they don't expect to live very long, so they have a housekeeper now,

00:57:19.980 - 00:57:33.200

and B Hans, and is out from back Kees, that's Johannes and sister in law to try to help Jim a little bit. Julia was working there a little bit on Saturday and Sunday, when Dell on the weekend. I mean, della on the weekend wasn't much. Nothing

00:57:33.200 - 00:57:46.360

much was coming up. Jim has not necessarily had his day. I hate to say that, because then the cannon and never had his day, really. He can always keep on going. But the last time I had a discussion with him was when rodeo was in the hospital, and

00:57:46.360 - 00:58:02.320

we'd already found out she'd been operated on for cancer. Steve was over there. He just got back from being he had also been operated on cancer, and I got in the usual bed beef with a Steve on a question of a play by this play by green wooden

00:58:02.320 - 00:58:15.480

shoulder Nixon. Ghetto, where Greenwood, you know, brought up some of the ideas of Smith had so forth about the but the Jews in the ghetto. And, of course, the SWP is up in arms. It's all anti Semite. The only person that didn't consider completely

00:58:15.480 - 00:58:26.240

anti semitic was little della, little asshole della, but she didn't know from anything else, but she had her own little stick going, because she had written about Green was playing, I think she kind of know she Green was bothering on the few black

00:58:26.240 - 00:58:40.780

people she knows. Oh, when you get back, I'll only tell you some stories. Anyway, I got no kind of a beef, or got a beef. I got a damn knockdown drag out with Steve and the same old shit over. You know, white radicals never can understand black

00:58:40.780 - 00:58:53.740

naturalism and Jim's only contribution the whole thing, I guess he was a little upset about it, because I didn't see him too often. Then I get over there, I start yelling at the assholes, asshole, meaning singular, meaning Steve, that.

00:58:55.120 - 00:59:05.220

He said, Well, there's one thing he says, I know I'm not. Jim said, this is one thing I know that I am not. I'm not an anti Semite. Now that wasn't even relevant at all, unless he meant by that, meant by that, that I was an anti Semite and everybody

00:59:05.220 - 00:59:17.520

else was an anti Semite who happened to mention the facts of the butter Levis. You know, just don't know what's happening babies, they say. But still, the ideas of Trotsky. I'm sure the Trotsky were alive today. He would understand it would be the

00:59:17.520 - 00:59:27.800

forefront. I know he'd think that. I know he would. He's very, his very actions of discussing, for example, the New York branch at one time. He says, Now, if you guys are gonna get rid of those little, that bunch of little Jewish middle

00:59:27.800 - 00:59:36.500

class guys you got around the New York branch, you're never gonna have any kind of revolutionary goddamn party. Which is absolutely correct, not that they're Jewish, but the whole business of middle classness And the whole shit

00:59:36.500 - 00:59:46.360

that goes with, I should talk to you. I get so beat up on this here kind of shit because it still goes on. It's the same thing. Of course, this isn't what you developed in here, in this and be kind of hard for you to develop that, because they

00:59:46.360 - 00:59:55.900

won't even listen to trout, skit, anything. So the most obvious things, they won't listen to trout, skip out. So how they gonna listen to anything else? In fact, I think the whole fucking left has got no chance at all in this

00:59:55.900 - 01:00:07.550

country, the left that we now know as a left, that's a lot of horse shit, I'm afraid. Frank. That the tradition will be covered on, will be carried on, not the way George and these guys, if somebody must carry on the tradition, traders, will be

01:00:07.550 - 01:00:19.010

carried on by the guys like yourself and guys who read and read it independent of these guys. That doesn't mean that I'm not for party. You know, I'm for party. I'm for organization. And I know that nothing can be done single handed, but the

01:00:19.010 - 01:00:28.760

organization this time is going to come from the black man, not with the white man. Help me one fuck. Me one fucking bit in here. In fact, he'll hinder him all the goddamn ways through. And what few white men will avoid and will buy only body? I

01:00:28.760 - 01:00:39.140

mean, what few white men can't participate will probably only participate by saying, Look at I'm black, and I'm going to do like the blacks, and that's it, because these fucking white racist in this country, the only way you can solve it, it's you

01:00:39.140 - 01:00:54.160

shoot them. I'm convinced of that, and the beer. But even without that, I'm convinced of it. We were discussing Bob Bigelow, myself and Julia and his wife, Bob's wife, last night, the whole question of this little thing be richer

01:00:54.160 - 01:01:05.640

said, there's no white men in the country. They didn't got a little bit of Mr. Charles in the free press. I guess you'll see him by now. I agreed with that. And Bob said, Yes. He says, In my family, the only time when white chauvinism will be wiped

01:01:05.640 - 01:01:17.940

out. He says, My children mean his and Alice's children, then it'll be wiped out. And that's right, that's about the only way it will be wiped out in this country, unless given some real radical change. And it's got to be more than a half assed

01:01:17.940 - 01:01:27.980

revolution, because all you have to do is read it, where the Robert Williams bit on Cuba to know that a half assed revolution that's got the starless anyway connected with at all, you'll have white supremacy in the goddamn thing.

01:01:28.280 - 01:01:38.960

And I don't I even so sure that the trout skis, and in fact, I'm now damn sure that trout skis have got as much of it at the stars, and maybe in some ways, more of it, because they got it and can't even recognize the son of a bitch in it worse form.

01:01:40.160 - 01:01:53.560

Well, let's see now. So you're, I hope you get this thing printed. I doubt very much at the left. I mean, the studies are left with printed and I'm, I know, damn Welch, that it shouldn't be printed in ISR. Better not to be printed at all

01:01:53.560 - 01:02:05.280

than it'd be print this here particular article ISR, because the ISR has got no no coverage at all in the first place. The coverage that you need with this article is not there. Better. Not there. Better to have it printed in better have it

01:02:05.280 - 01:02:16.080

printed in some book form, collected essay you in a year or two or three years. Whenever you get something, you know that going, where you get some kind of connection, maybe you could, maybe the merit publication, the merit printing outfit, could

01:02:16.080 - 01:02:26.120

print a book of yours or something like that. If we could pay him a little bit of money, you know, to print the book of a series of your things, and then get it promoted some by, I don't know, some naked women on the outside or something like that.

01:02:26.120 - 01:02:37.400

You know, something going it really makes the things go anyway. Back to thing. Let's see if I hit everything. Tim Harding, tonight, right? And mclu, and I didn't go in it like I wanted to, but just the tape is almost stopped. A Bowers, oh

01:02:37.400 - 01:02:49.180

yeah, good old fat Abe. He's now been talked now, according to the restaurant business, he's opening a restaurant on the corner of Vermont near, I mean, the corner, sense a corner sunset near Vermont, the former. I think it was old tactical

01:02:49.180 - 01:03:02.260

place, that Mexican place, not the one that you eat up, but down the street tax go. I think it was they closed and opened a big spot across the street, and Abe and some friend of his decided to open this restaurant. And they the friend didn't have

01:03:02.260 - 01:03:16.200

no money, but a put the money up. He took all of Sammy, some legacy, I imagine, is opening the son of a bitch up. It's called a piece de resistance, that same, the goddamn record. I mean, the shop I'm running even faster than usual, because the

01:03:16.200 - 01:03:28.880

tape is running out. And the peace de resistance as a sign outside peace, de resistance, and part of it neon. The only thing that shows up at night is just peace, which is a good we saw it back before last, a good thing on the side of the

01:03:28.880 - 01:03:38.540

building. He's got place the home of the avant garde, where the real swingers are. Can you imagine this a Bauer and his shit. He wanted Bob to come down and print a bunch of, I mean, paint a bunch of stuff on the side of the building and

01:03:38.540 - 01:03:50.500

everything. You know, Abe's got himself so fucked up in this thing. Henze license yet. Rent is 500 bucks a month. It's not open. He bought a bar, you know, a long bar without it, without any liquor license at all. Well, you're gonna have liquor, gonna

01:03:50.500 - 01:04:01.680

have wine and beer, he thinks. And they're gonna have entertainment supposed to stay open to three o'clock and really swing. You can imagine the entertainment fat Avenue the Gulch is, except he don't call himself fatty because himself

01:04:01.680 - 01:04:18.000

Frenchy. Now he's the matre d, the Frenchy Mallea Henze home so dirty. I don't think he'll ever open, but a poor guy, Henze go broke in a whole fucking process of it. And I'm afraid, anyway, if he, if he has anything going to Gulch, I'll naturally

01:04:18.000 - 01:04:32.000

unsupported over because I still like the old shit. He don't, haven't kept up with anything at all, but he does know how to eat pretty good. That's really so fat. But his piece de resistance, he bought this bar for $2,000 you understand, he

01:04:32.000 - 01:04:41.080

could got a bar. I mean, the bar, you know, this is wood that goes in the bar itself. Well, that's cheap for a bar if you get a big bar, but you don't need a big bar. He bought someplace unless he set up for a nickel from the dollar. You

01:04:41.080 - 01:04:50.260

know, whatever the hell that means. You know, nickel $1 he didn't need that bar because he probably won't eat it all well, of course, I could be made out of whole asshole. This thing might really go because right down the street all the homos

01:04:50.320 - 01:04:52.960

are, you know, the homosexual bit is all down the street there.