00:00:01.860 - 00:00:26.480

Unknown: Well, I think that music, being an expression of the human heart, of the human being itself, does express just what is happening. So then it expresses the whole thing. Ah, I feel it's like anybody else. I mean, if you live in, living in

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a society, that what goes it's like, to me, this music has been influenced by by the environment, by the things that people have gone through. This to me, this is the, this is how this music One of the reasons why the music emerged because of

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the fact that society had imposed certain things upon people, and this was an outlet restrictions or certain pressures, and people use this as a form of well, the black people in particular use it as a form of expressing themselves,

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You know. So I believe that society does have a an effect on the music. Well, no, I mean, sometimes it might, it might appear to be one. You might say, Well, it's hard to say, man, you know,

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sometimes people like it or don't like it, no matter what. You don't have any preferences yourself about what kind of an audience you play for.

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Well, to me, it doesn't matter what kind of I only hope that whoever's out there listening, I hope they enjoy it. If people do enjoy the music, how would you like them to demonstrate this? Do you like an audience that's perfectly still

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and unresponsive? Would you like an audience that reacts more visibly to the music? Well, I guess I like an audience that does show I thought that Malcolm stood for some very beautiful goals in

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life. There's no doubt about that. I don't agree with violence, but I haven't been threatened as much as Malcolm was. You know, maybe you know he was, he felt he was, his survival got down to that far back. I think if it got that far

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down back with me, I would be punching and swinging too. Obviously, it wasn't survival, because, right. So there, there it is. Yeah, well, I believe that there's something related there,

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because Malcolm came out of the ghetto as a product of the ghetto, as as I feel the music is a product of the ghetto. Feel that it's only natural that he would have a close feeling, you know, to the music, because it's, it's something that was

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just a part of him, you know, because it's a part of the ghetto, I believe that one, you know, both of them are the same one and his ideas also came out of the ghetto. Then would

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you say yes, basically, would you ever consider dedicating a composition to Malcolm? I might consider that. Would you ever, I'm sorry, would you ever consider dedicating a composition to anyone political,

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musical, social, any public figure that would be known by others, possibly, yes, possibly. But you can't think of any right off hand. No, not right off. He began to see that there were, there were people of many

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different colors in the world who were seeking the reality and and that all the times that I've witnessed Malcolm and he's I mean by that, his appearances on television, his appearances in Harlem, where I was in the audience, I find it very

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difficult to take issue with him, especially in some of these discussions on television which involved other civil rights People such as James Farmer, I found nothing to be just about to take the most realistic stand in all of the situations, in all

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the questions. I mean these questions involve situations all over the world, not just not just in America. It and Malcolm's comments were very vivid, very decisive. I found it very hard to take issue very much. I

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think he's a very strong Oh, well, they're definitely important. And as I said there, the issues are part of what is. You know, at this time, naturally, we express whatever, whatever it is. Do

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you make a conscious attempt to express these things? Or do you feel that it just Well, I tell you myself, I make a conscious attempt, I think I could say truthfully that in music I may I make, or I

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have tried to make, consciously an attempt to change, to change What I found in music. And in other words, I've tried to say, well, this I feel could be better, you see, in my opinion, so I will try to do this to make it better. This is what I feel,

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that we feel in any situation that we find in our lives. When there's something that we feel should be better, we must ever make it better so it's the same. Socially, musically, politically,

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most of the musicians I have talked to are very concerned with changing the society, and they do see their music as an instrument by which I think so I think music is an instrument. It can create

00:06:38.180 - 00:06:57.700

the initial just thought patterns to Kees, a change in the thinking of the people. Because, actually, my goal, if, if I would, among the many of the goals I have, is to say that we're all brothers, and so forth

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and so on and and therefore these, the ideal world is going to have an elimination of classes so as we know it, where people will be freer to express their emotions and their minds, and that will take them with so I'm functioning at that level.

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Now maybe I think that has a lot to do with it. I think it has a lot to do it. No, please. Yeah, I think that. I think that has a great deal to do with it. I really do, but I think it also, I think

00:07:24.380 - 00:07:44.260

probably it would have happened, maybe naturally. I think that it was, it was Hans that happened to be a vehicle to express the suffering that that the black man had incurred in this country. But I think that maybe if the similar, I think that

00:07:44.320 - 00:07:57.520

being that the uniting of the two cultures, I think that had just taken place under any other circumstances, maybe it might have happened, maybe with not as much meaning. I don't know. It's really hard to say, you know, but I think that it's really an

00:07:57.520 - 00:08:17.700

amalgamation the two cultures, you know. You know, the African and European culture, sure, right? We're not happy with the power structure as it is now. None of us are. We feel that there's a lot of useless

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people have, not people, per se, Mr. Henze, but situations that have to be eliminated, such as the war in Vietnam, perhaps, oh, by any war in any where, the war here in New York, yeah, any war has got to be eliminated. But that I know

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realistically is, well, I mean, like Johnson, i is going the way that he that that you could have been predicted on the Vietnam Well, in my opinion, I would say yes,

00:09:01.560 - 00:09:25.640

because I believe my opinion, to me, it is an expression of music, and this music and this music is an expression of highest, to me, higher idea.

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So therefore brotherhood, and I believe with brotherhood, there would be no poverty, and also with brotherhood, there would be no war, my opinion, at the stage, at this stage of the Union where I'm at now. I don't care too much for playing clubs

00:09:47.620 - 00:10:03.840

consistently. There was a time when this felt alright to me because my music, I felt I had to play a lot to work it out. But now I don't think where it was at, but I had to find. By myself to the country. Yeah, I had to go through this thing,

00:10:03.840 - 00:10:20.840

you know, well. And now I don't feel this is necessary. I think that it is a matter of being able to be at home and in to go into yourself, in other words, like the years before, I was playing, you know, every night. And as such, I don't feel, I

00:10:20.840 - 00:10:35.660

don't the situation involving the club is not an ideal one for me. What is it about the clubs that you don't like? Well, actually, excuse me, we don't play this 40 minute kind of thing anymore,

00:10:35.720 - 00:10:55.960

you see, and it's very difficult to always do this kind of thing now. And the music changing as it is. A lot of times when it doesn't make sense, man, to have to have somebody drop a glass. You know, somebody asked for some money right in the middle

00:10:55.960 - 00:11:06.480

of Jimmy gas or so. I know it's always happening in there, you see. And these kind of things that are calling for some other kind of presentation.

00:11:07.140 - 00:11:18.120

In other words, these really are artists who are playing it. They're not really being treated like artists. They're being treated like part of the cash register. I think the music is rising, and

00:11:18.120 - 00:11:42.520

my estimation is rising into something else, so they'll have to find this kind of place. Just talk about my own. And I'll say this thing about one thing about working conditions for the jazz music. I mean, they're as

00:11:42.700 - 00:12:01.020

good or as bad as he's willing to put up with him if he wants to enforce his demands. And really, really, he should realize that he can hold out, he can boycott, he can demand just the same as everybody else for something better. And I think

00:12:01.020 - 00:12:18.360

that in this new generation of jazz positions, we are beginning to see a group of people who are making these demands. Finally, we know that in the past, some of our greatest players and composers in the jazz tradition have been victims of a system

00:12:18.960 - 00:12:39.680

for today, being at that time and badly oppressed as they were, were not able to rise above certain problems. But now I see especially and we can, I think we can talk about legal musicians. Now I think that there are people. I think there

00:12:39.680 - 00:12:59.080

are geniuses as great as Charlie Parker in this day and age, who have refused to become victims and are rising above and are dealing end in hand to hand

00:12:59.080 - 00:13:15.120

combat with the establishment and with the power structure and just refuse to be done in by it, or to drug themselves to a point where they don't feel it as violently as they feel that jazz musicians are treated on the whole As

00:13:15.120 - 00:13:33.320

artists deserve to be treated. No, they're not. That's a very difficult, difficult question. I think that. I think jazz music, if you want to use that term, jazz, I don't

00:13:33.320 - 00:13:49.120

take it carefully, but, but it's an acceptance, accepted word. So I use it because I have so much respect for the music. You know, I feel that word really isn't. But getting off that, I think that jazz is really not, it's really not given the proper

00:13:49.120 - 00:14:05.940

exposure, and it's really not exposed in this, in the true light of really what of what it really is, you know, this is the way I look at it, you know. And consequently, I think that we suffer because people don't really get, they get the wrong

00:14:05.940 - 00:14:23.300

idea what it's all about, you know. And I think that sometimes the differently, it seems as though, like the music doesn't get the proper exposure. It's not being it's not being exposed right, properly, you know. It gets sort of a minimum amount of

00:14:23.300 - 00:14:34.280

exposure, not enough. I don't feel, you know, could this be connected with the fact that many of the musicians are themselves black? And possibly, I possibly, I believe that to a degree, I

00:14:34.280 - 00:14:44.380

really do. Do you have any suggestions as to how working conditions? Because, I mean, that tested like in any other, pardon me, it's like any other, any other field. I mean any other thing,

00:14:44.380 - 00:14:54.460

especially, and I believe that being that black musicians seemingly have been the innovators in this particular field, that that's another thing that I think keeps it at a certain level. You mean,

00:14:54.460 - 00:15:06.960

white people find it difficult to accept the fact that black people could make valid artistic innovations. Do. I wouldn't say as a whole white people, but I think that there's a great majority, probably because of the the way

00:15:06.960 - 00:15:22.280

society, the different the way society, the society points that that black man is inferior in many, many degrees. So I guess it's very difficult for white people to accept that, just as in the history textbooks, you don't

00:15:22.280 - 00:15:33.080

read Black men who cross the Delaware with Washington. Do you think in jazz, white musicians get better treatment than black on the whole in jazz?

00:15:34.400 - 00:15:51.220

Well, to tell you the truth, I really couldn't, we couldn't say, be conclusive on that. But one I do, one thing I do feel that being this mean that there's a society is way, is the way it is. And being that white supremacy, white supremacy,

00:15:51.220 - 00:16:04.980

seems to be a dominant thing, that it's only natural that quite naturally, a white musician with under certain circumstances would get better treatment. Just seems that the music has just been directed by

00:16:06.060 - 00:16:26.480

businessmen, I would suppose know how to arrange the making of the dollar and so forth. And maybe often, the artist hasn't really taken his hand himself to just figure out just what he's or if he does feel it should be within some other ways. And I

00:16:26.480 - 00:16:35.120

think these are the things which have been thought about more now. How do you think conditions are going to be improved for the musicians?

00:16:37.280 - 00:17:00.480

Well, there has to be a lot of self help, you know, their own problems, like, for example, the jazz composers guild was trying to do, yeah, I do think that was A good idea. I don't think it's

00:17:00.480 - 00:17:23.480

dead. Couldn't be born at that time. Do the musicians who play in these newer styles look to Africa and Asia for some of their musical inspiration? I think so. I think they look all over.

00:17:25.100 - 00:17:38.240

Do they look some places more than inside? I heard you, for example, talking about making a trip to Africa to gather musical sources. Make a trip to Africa together, just together, whatever I can

00:17:38.300 - 00:17:49.180

find. Do you think that musicians are more interested in Africa and Asia than in Europe? As far as well,

00:17:51.940 - 00:18:12.720

exposed to Europe, other parts that they haven't been exposed to? At least, I speak for myself, I'm trying to have around it usually education is that? Why do you think that the interest in Africa and Asia

00:18:12.720 - 00:18:29.600

is growing at this particular time? Well, it's just time to come about. Bill Nixon, suggested it might have something to do with the fact that many African nations became independent in the 1950s

00:18:30.380 - 00:18:43.660

and changed the way the Negroes in this country looked at themselves, gave made them more aware of the African heritage, and made them more interested in going back and looking for it. Do you think there's anything to that Linley,

00:18:48.100 - 00:18:59.500

do the musicians who play in some of the newer styles, look to Africa and Asia for their musical inspiration. I know I do. I do. Is there any particular reason why you do?

00:19:00.700 - 00:19:17.220

Well, I think, well, I have a lot of personal reasons, I think mainly because of my religious convictions, you know, which I am orthodox by faith. But I think that has a lot to do with Mallea, and not just because of that. I think because a lot of

00:19:17.220 - 00:19:28.940

musicians are realizing that this is where the roots of the music really came from, you know, far as this means is concerned, rather than Europe, yeah, yeah, what I mean, but I think that most of the black musicians feel that they can

00:19:28.940 - 00:19:54.160

better relate to Africa. I really couldn't say we sure. Why did Kees home, but I found out well from my observation over the last years, at least my at least my participation in the art form, seemingly there isn't enough, enough of the roots

00:19:54.220 - 00:20:09.660

there to really identify the music for what it is to be. Very recently. Least the average person. I mean, least a person that the average listener music, you know, I feel that this element definitely has to be present in order to even

00:20:09.660 - 00:20:24.020

approach most of, most of the majority of the listeners anyway to jazz. You know, not that one should compromise it. I think that that this element is very important and distinguishes jazz from other, you know, other forms of music.

00:20:24.620 - 00:20:36.080

When we were talking earlier about Africa and Asian music being important, it seems that this has unbearing on the case too. Because if musicians are going to look to Africa and Asia for their musical inspiration, they're not going to be as

00:20:36.080 - 00:20:47.200

interested in third street music, which Linley is going in another direction, yeah, I guess so, you know. But quite naturally, you're gonna find musicians who are going to delve into areas similar to the

00:20:47.200 - 00:20:58.480

third stream area, you know what? I wouldn't say, what they're going to come up with, but this is where I feel, I feel that that's the that's where I'm looking towards, in that direction, you know. But the young musicians,

00:20:58.480 - 00:21:17.700

most of them, seem not to be very interested in third stream. Yeah, right, right. Sure, definitely, all evidence. Why do you think this is happening now?

00:21:20.160 - 00:21:42.640

Well, to answer that question would be to be difficult for me, because for me, for instance, there was no other choice. I was playing with jazz. That was that I thought was happening and learning, you know, and I thought about, well, let's let's

00:21:42.640 - 00:21:59.980

do it. How many choices do you have? You know, you play group improvisation with this kind of a structure or that kind of a structure. I think that just the inevitable thing you know, do you think that group improvisation is becoming more

00:21:59.980 - 00:22:14.760

important in the newer styles, I think so. Do you have any Can you think of any reason why it should be becoming more important at this particular time? Well, I don't know. I really couldn't say for sure. All I can

00:22:14.760 - 00:22:31.940

say is that it's something that I don't know. It's a different approach. I think anything different. I think a lot of me lot of musicians are seeking to explore new areas, and I think that this is a new area, you know, I mean, a different style

00:22:31.940 - 00:22:46.240

of playing. Now, years ago, I think they used to play like that, you know, it's nothing new. It's a different. It's a different concept now. It's a different it's a sort of glamoration of what has happened before, you know, and what's

00:22:46.240 - 00:22:57.940

happening now, you know, I believe that all of it is related, you know, the whole scope, many of the new groups are piano list. Is this also a coming trend?

00:22:58.540 - 00:23:18.360

Yeah, I think so. I think it's it's so because the Western scale of tonality is too much and dictated by the piano. Now there are piano there are there should some of these piano players should learn how to tune their their instrument almost

00:23:18.360 - 00:23:32.840

instantaneously, so as to be able to go in the cracks, to be able to get those quarter tones and semi quarter tones there are. There are piano players that can do it, but they're not, they're more mechanical. I mean, they can do it, but they're not

00:23:32.840 - 00:23:45.640

the creators. And I think that the piano player, if he wants to stay in the business, is going to have to add to his tool a tuning bar on the take another job, you know, say I'm gonna and tune the piano so it will be unique.

00:23:45.760 - 00:24:00.900

Are there any jazz piano players who can play the cracks? Now, I don't know, because, I mean, the cracks, my dear, there's no mystical thing about hitting the key. I mean, in sound, there may be the mystical way of a way one piano player.

00:24:01.440 - 00:24:15.600

I'm not talking about me, but a sound is a C natural. Is a C natural. Now, the will sound differently if the guy's willing to. I mean, you could make the piano sound like it's in the crack. That's what I mean. So that, but that has nothing to do

00:24:15.600 - 00:24:28.040

with the piano player. Oh, no, I can make the piano as a bass player because it sound like it's in a crack. You mean when you strike the key, or by doing something new, when I'm playing the orchestration of my sound, and that sound? Oh yeah, yeah,

00:24:28.100 - 00:24:56.200

yeah, he might have, I think, I think that Cecil does it by force, by will Potter. There really aren't many piano players. A pianist is a very

00:24:56.200 - 00:25:21.020

rare individual, somebody who can. Nixon, because somehow he's got to organize semitones into combinations of sounds to express his voice, his singing. And we know that the voice and singing involve a

00:25:21.020 - 00:25:39.620

lot more than just putting together semitone. Yeah. I mean, let's say successive melodic line made up a combination for semitones. The voice is just not that way. It's not natural for the voice, and it's not and the voice doesn't express itself

00:25:40.160 - 00:26:05.520

fully that way, even a piano player has the rare talents of being able to confuse his own vocal sound into an instrument that resists just that of breathing like in The corpse, exactly rhythmically. We know that what the piano stands for

00:26:05.580 - 00:26:23.060

any other percussion instrumentally, but only as far as its pitch goes. That is where the Henze has to have that rare time, and because this is especially imperative in the new music, that's why you find some piano players. It's much more

00:26:23.060 - 00:26:45.760

demanding to be vocal in the moon music, to be able to express yourself less and less of the brand of piano players that lean heavily upon chord changes. Well, I mean, pretty much who the giants of the piano had them. We know that Tatum was

00:26:45.760 - 00:27:06.960

able to express himself sort of conversationally and Gulch on the piano. And that certainly sees the tailor, definitely, Ellington. Ellington's approach is basically percussive, but his sound is an extension of his emotion and his voice, and in

00:27:06.960 - 00:27:26.180

his sound, you can hear the kind of dissonance that I'm talking about that expresses vocalization. Oh, I don't know, because, see, I still use a piano and I have this is one where I feel that I don't need this phone, and I

00:27:26.180 - 00:27:47.560

might, I don't know. Maybe it's because, well, when you're not playing on a given progression, well, you don't need, don't really need anybody there to state these things. And if it would get in your way to have somebody going in another

00:27:47.560 - 00:28:05.880

direction you trying to go in this, then it'd be better for me not to have a piano. I don't. We don't follow what the piano does anymore, because we all move in our under licenses. Because we all move in. You do?

00:28:08.580 - 00:28:29.120

You do have the piano little layout well after a while, and I always instruct the piano players, whenever they wish, they can just lay off and let it go on as it is, because after a while, lots of times the piano,

00:28:29.120 - 00:28:42.160

piano. The reason I asked that was because that was the time you get around, the time you had Eric in and out of the band, and there was a whole wave of really hostile criticism.

00:28:44.140 - 00:28:55.540

All this was at the same time, so you can see how it was I needed all the strength I could have at that time, and maybe some of these things might have caused me to feel that. Well, damn, I can't get what I want out of

00:28:55.540 - 00:29:07.740

this mouthpiece you can get this might have undermined your self confidence. I it any good? Why do you think there's been all this hostility to the new music, especially,

00:29:09.600 - 00:29:30.320

I never could figure it out. Because, as I told them, then, I just felt that they didn't understand. They were making conscientious and Stroud attempt to understand as they could

00:29:30.980 - 00:29:49.840

have at times I didn't feel they were because I did that offer to them men were interested in, you know, trying to understand. Let's get together and let's talk about it. You know, I felt that they were really, genuinely interested, or thought there was

00:29:49.840 - 00:30:02.100

something here that they instead of just condemning it, what you don't know about, we want to discuss it. Let's talk about but no one ever, you know, came forth. I think they were really. They didn't want to know what to say about it.

00:30:03.000 - 00:30:18.780

I think it frightened them. Bill. He told we talked about this at great length, and he said, Well, these guys, see, I was taking them years to learn how to figure out algorithm on the piano, and now the new music comes along and undermines their

00:30:18.780 - 00:30:38.000

entire career, which is built around understanding, yeah, yeah, something that he will be able to cope with and he won't be able to write about he can make. And then I realized that, so I

00:30:38.000 - 00:30:56.680

quieted down. I didn't I wouldn't allow myself to become too hostile back, you know, in return, although there was a time I kind of froze up on the people that down, I don't know. I felt that there was something that it wasn't I didn't. I felt

00:30:56.680 - 00:31:09.060

that they were letting their weakness direct reactions which I didn't feel that you're there, you Why do you think so much of the new music has met with hostility on

00:31:09.060 - 00:31:20.160

the part of many critics? I really couldn't see remember, there was a time when Johannes group, especially has given a roasting back. And I think, Oh, I think maybe because one, not one, one doesn't like to I

00:31:20.160 - 00:31:34.880

guess in the as a function of being a critic, I think one might feel that he's misinformed. Well, that's just like anything else, anything new that comes along quite naturally is going to meet some sort of robbery from certain elements,

00:31:34.880 - 00:31:44.740

you know. I guess you know, that's like anything else, you know, change, and some people might accept it. Some are going to reject it. But I guess in that particular position where they where they have to speak with some sort of authority,

00:31:44.740 - 00:31:54.940

they have to guess, they don't want to be at a disadvantage something new. Think there's anything social here, in the sense that most of these critics are white and many of them are middle aged, and many of them

00:31:54.940 - 00:32:09.360

musicians are young and black, and in some cases, have radical ideas, radical political ideas. I think in most cases, I mean, I could, I can't speak, yeah, I just wanted to. I know that. I know that there are some

00:32:09.360 - 00:32:23.480

probably that are men of integrity, but I believe that that there is element of dishonesty. I think amongst what, I couldn't say that with proof, but there's certain things that seem to point in that direction, you know that

00:32:24.680 - 00:32:28.520

they seem to be biased. And said, you know bias? Well, if you want some person, you.