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Unknown: [Music] Morton Marcus: Good evening, everybody this is Morton Marcus and this is the first of what will probably be eight programs that were made by Joe Stroh- Stroud and yours truly when we

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were down several months ago in Australia. And while there, we recorded a number of Australian poets, people who are very much on the scene down there, and we are going to bring you the first show in the series tonight. I should tell you that this show

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was made the first night that Joe, I, and Anita Wilkins, three poets who went down to Australia to read our poems down there, the first night that we were in Sydney. And we found that there is a huge cultural explosion going on down in Australia, and

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an extreme- extremely exciting poetry scene. Mostly this poetry scene is happening in pubs, which is a cultural and social center of Australian life. And what is interesting about it is that the poets are now projecting a very dramatic kind

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of poetry that they call performance poetry. We're going to be talking about that with four Australian poets at a gathering that was done this first night at the rental apartment we had in Sydney. And in it we had four, as I said,

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Australian poets, they were Billy Marshall-Stoneking, a novelist, screenwriter, biographer, and poet whose work has appeared in a number of Australian poetry anthologies. His first book of poems will be out this year, and he has lived

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among the aborigines of the central desert for four and a half years. He is also the author of a number of television shows, one of which is an entire series, and an excellent one called “Stringer“; he also wrote the novel from which that TV

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series was taken. Another poet was known- is Nigel Roberts who is one of the founding fathers of the Poetry Explosion. He was a pioneer in performance poetry in the pubs and he is the author of two books, and is quite prominent- quite a prominent

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contributor to Australian poetry anthologies. The third poet is Pi O, who for some unexplainable reason I call Pao on the tape. He is a Greek-Australian from Melbourne, who is in Sydney for the publication of his new book "The Fitzroy Poems." He edited

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the big performance poetry anthology called "Off the Record" several years back, his quick mind and vibrant energy really spiced our visit there. He stayed in town for seven days and read with us, as did Nigel and Billy on numerous occasions.

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The fourth poet is Alan Wearne, well known young Australian who has been sent around the world by the Australian government, and has received much critical attention for his new novel in poetry. He had come up for Newcastle where he is the poet

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in residence at the university just for this night in order to meet us. I should say that the recording session took place late at night, after the Australians had imbibed a large quantity of good Australian beer and more important, after the

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ice had been broken between us, the Americans and them, the Australians. It- should- I should warn those listeners who are offended by raw language and explicit sexual subject matter that the material they are about to hear may offend them. And now

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to Sydney, Australia, on the night of Sunday, March 12, 1989. Hello everybody, this is Morton Marcus and Joe Stroud, and we're here in Sydney, Australia; first night here and we are going to talk with a group of Australian poets and I think you'll find

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them very interesting. We will ask them to introduce themselves starting on my right Billy Marshall-Stoneking: Billy Marshall-Stoneking Nigel Roberts: Nigel Roberts

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Alan Wearne: Alan Wearne Pi O: Pi O [inaudible] Paul Thompson: And an English playwright by the name of Paul Thompson.

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Morton Marcus: And Paul Thompson is here. We are going to ask you various questions about the Australian poetic scene which is very exciting and very volatile. And Pi O, you represent a poetry Pi O: Well, I think we all represent that.

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that's being done down here this summer, as performance poetry. Could you tell us how it started and what it is? Morton Marcus: Okay Pi O: To start with- how did it start? Well we started when we

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started The Poets Union. Well, i started before then, there was lot of people doing it, more o less, but it had never b en recognized, never been put un er one umbrella. So when a batch of us got together and started he Poets Union, we did some r

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ck raking around the tra s, including the Adelaide's rts festival, and after the Adelaide's arts festival, d ring a debate against a very f mous and well known Austr lian au

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Morton Marcus: Possibly related to you- Pi O: No. [Laughter] Christ. Anyway, we abused the shit out of him and we coined the term oral and performance poetry as a vague umbrella by which to distinguish us from what they

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considered to be literature. And more or less as soon as we- In the beginning was the word, literally, I mean, as soon as people heard that there was a label around, it just spread like wildfire.

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Morton Marcus: Now, this was in 1978, right? Pi O: Yeah. [cross talk] Yeah. Yeah [inaudible] all right, yeah. So um, yeah, anyway, so the whole thing sort of took off, everyone became a performance poetry. And it was a

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convenient tool to hang us with also, because that means there was the connotations to the word performance also meaning actor, meaning theater, and for a lot of us, that is not what we're about. I mean, people who want to be actors can be actors, and

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the ones who want to do theater can do theater, but we were poets and we were interested specifically with language, not just how good we looked up on stage, you know- [inaudible] wanted to get poetry off the table.That was it, that was

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always it, and so people- I mean, all the time you get the response, you know, "Oh, now that I've heard you read, I'll be able to read you on the page." People didn't know how to get us off the page anymore. We'd totally lost-

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Billy Marshall-Stoneking: not just us, but any poets- Alan Wearne: yeah, yeah. Pi O: Yeah, I concur. Morton Marcus: Wait a second, were there a lot of readings

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before the performance poets? Pi O: Ah yeah, we went berserk, yeah. Morton Marcus: No, no I mean, before, before the- Pi O: Yes, I wold say- if we're dealing with Australian poetry

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there was probably- we can only speak really, from the point of view of Melbourne, where Pi - myself, Cam or Nigel, or Sydney with Nigel and Billy Cameron. And there were- I think it was a gradual buildup over the past 10 years. The past years between

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say about 68, 67-68, building up to this event that occurred in Adelaide and there was lots of readings, And there still- there still are, though perhaps, perhaps because the three of us are in our 30s or 40s, I don't know whether any of us think, I

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don't actually think there's quite that excitement that was filled in those years leading up to now. Billy Marshall-Stoneking: I don't agree. No, no, no. Joseph Stroud: What's the tip- What distinguishes performance

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poetry from someone simply getting up and reading their poem out loud? Pi O: Well, if the media and if the academy at the moment have their say, absolutely nothing, but that's not what we're about.

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I mean, we're- I'm not, I'm not interested- well we're not- Joseph Stroud: Can I call you on the phone kind of thing. Pi O: Right. Either that, or [crosstalk] Stick to it will ya. Um, yeah, well, I'm not interested in going up on stage

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with puppets, with all this extr paraphernalia, and, you know, good suit or something, an making it. You know. And- and think that that's what it's bee taken as, and that's what th academy wants to be taken as

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Billy Marshall-Stoneking: l- I would say that the academy and that would probably involve a lot of critics and reviewers in Australian poetry, who in my case like my work, you know, okay, they- they like me, and I get on well with them, but I

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think for the point of view of Pi‘s poetry and probably Nigel's poetry, the thing is that they're- They see them get up in public, perform their poetry, it's great sort of, if it's poets' mic night, sort of, you know, the 200 words a minute,

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bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, and they sort of laugh, but often think of them as the court jesters, were in actual fact I don't think that they are. Unknown: Yes, it's true.

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Billy Marshall-Stoneking: Certainly- and certainly if you read Pi‘s work, and read Nigel's work on the page, which I think has to be done in tandem with them, the reading of the poetry, not necessarily on the mic but somewhere else, you realize that

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these people aren't the court jesters. They can be laughed off, they can be dismissed, and that- that I do find is saddening. Unknown: We were guilty of committing the great crime of

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reading poems to people who didn't like poetry. Billy Marshall-Stoneking: No, who weren't interested. Unknown: -who weren't interested in going into pubs and turning off the jukebox and sort of say anybody want to hear a poem. And

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well, occasionally there would be attempts to win them over with a traditional ballad, you know, just a bit of Lawson or a bit of Paterson, but [cross t lk] Pi O: I never did that. [cross talk] Anyway, go on.

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Billy Marshall-Stoneking: Let me let me read an example of this type of poetry we're talking about. This is by a Melbourne writer by the name of Derek Beach, and it's called Unknown: UNTITLED

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Now that there's too many love songs, all I can think of is you, too many people been done wrong, believe that the sky will turn blue. Can a minute last an hour, can a flower sting a bee, has a lover any power, can a cannon shell a pea? Now that my

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heart has been broken, all I can hear is the clock, sent you the hands as a token, believe if I wait that you'll knock. Can a minute last an hour, can a flower sting a bee, has a lover any power, can a cannon shell a pea. I know that there's too

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many sad songs, there's a blues in every hue, too bad so many been done wrong, assistant librarian blues. Can a minute last an hour, can a flower sting a bee, has a lover any power, can a cannon shell a pea, what's a don with out a moa, what's the

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you - with out of me, what's a don with out a lover, what's the shoe do on a shoe tree? you ve doovy, you ve doovy. Billy Marshall-Stoneking: I never heard it before. Unknown: Hadn‘t you?

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Pi O: No he- Eric, he read it once and I told him I wanted that for the anthology, he never ever considered it as an anthology piece. So- Billy Marshall-Stoneking: You better tell them a bit about

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what the anthology is, since you said mentioned it. Pi O: "Off the Record," n anthology of performance poetr . I put it together because I didn't really want academics o write down history; I figured e should write our own histor

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. And so, I sat down and got a l the magazines that I could fin , and I put in all my prejudice , and I put in all my thought , and I put in everything I cou d link up, and I invented so e connections and- which ca e true. [Laughter] And- and

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hen I put 53 poets I think toget er, a lot of them I've- I put n because of all the work t ey'd done as opposed to whether I particularly liked their stuff. And others, yo know, who I thought needed o be saluted were in there, peop

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e like Nigel who'd been sort of from much earlier on who ac ually shines right through, you now, like 10 years before we get here sort of th Alan Wearne: We were operating on the old beat as ethos, you

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know, somebody in Melbourne has written- written a good poem, let's drive down to Melbourne and hear him read, and then we'l read some of ours, and he'l read some more of his, and let s go to somebody else's pla e. I mean, we're a small cabal

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you know, I mean, of big cra ies I suppose. I Morton Marcus: Can you name some of those poets who became involved in that? Pi O: Dransfield, Michael Dransfield, Charles Buckmaster,

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Geoffrey Eggleston, people in this book, I mean- Billy Marshall-Stoneking: Yeah, there are- Pi O: A lot of people who just faded off, who did other things, who- who, you know, religion or junk or whatever was going sort

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of destroyed- you know, I mean, there's a lot of casualties, and, you know, in all these things, and so, you know, it's hard to mention just, you know, a few that- trying to be honest to the whole thing, you know. And I- you know, I got

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photographs of the poets, I put- slapped them down together, I- I've got the best concrete poet in Melbourne, who's involved in advertising, Mimmo Cozzolino to put it together. It cost me- Pinguin a fortune to do that and- and then I said to Pinguin,

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I just didn't want a book, I wanted- y'all can do a book simply enough, I just get enough people to put in 100 bucks, and we've got a book. So I told them I wanted a record, you know, I wanted to record, and they'd never done a record before so

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they didn't know what to do about it. But see I sort of stooged the boss, you know, to accept his protege. So, you know, the sort of had to comply sort of thing, you know, and so, we've got a record together, you know, sort of done pretty

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hurriedly because it kept being delayed, it was the last thing we're gonna do. And then we've got a whole bunch of people in the studio and said, you know, do the best version you've gotten, here we go, you know, and we did, and we put it

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together. And I think it's really good. It's been used a hell of a lot in schools, by teachers, and people like that who would like, not just- I think I said earlier, who are learning to read again, you know, because most people,

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including academics are illiterate. They don't know what language is about, they don‘t know how to read it outside forms or thesis, that's the end of it. Joseph Stroud: Let's do some more poems.

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Morton Marcus: Yeah, come on, let's take a pause and gave you get some poems. Nigel Roberts: This poem's called: THE QUOTE FROM AUDEN

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At the conclusion of breakfast, in that space, moment, question of the first cigarette or the washing up, she relayed the quote from Auden. I faked message received & understood, thinking it offering, or, her inductive incidental to the day

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and its work. I knew only that it was a quote from Auden. Later, I found the book publicly open, annotated, and underlined, and too true in a signatory agreement with the quote from Auden. And again later in a brief drink at the pub, she

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enthusiastically told M & C who looked sharply in my direction, the quote from Auden. Some deal, there was hint, was going down, I knew it's key in the quote from Auden. I talked of everything but at the Bon Gout to affirm Fuck and deny

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after-dinner screw– unsuccessfully! How could I in a dozen words, or a score be briefed to hold the floor with the quote from Auden. As she showered, I fed the animal computers the encoded dactyls broadcast on her skin, and in

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their readout the quote from Auden. In the nasty glossolalia of suck, oh Jesus, fuck me, bite, you're the best, on top, don't move, she really meant the quote from Auden. From then on all speech, action, written word, in part or principle

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deferred to the quote from Auden. On t-shirts the Quote from Auden. From Empire Brooks or The Hill to Anthony holding after bowling three consecutive bumpers at Redpath, the Quote from Auden. Joni Mitchell's next album, the Quote from Auden. The

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news and weather followed by the Quote from Auden. Graffiti on the Allendale underpass the Quote from Auden. Every future kiss tainted with the Quote from Auden. The most quotable quote, the Quote from Auden. Get the boot in first, the same applies

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with the Quote from Auden. So I was introduced to her intent to quit, sock it to me, the Quote from Auden. I cannot be true to love, or it true to me, is one interpretation of the Quote from Auden. Come live with me and be my love and we shall all the

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pleasures prove, is not the Quote from Auden. Sock it to me one more time, the Quote from Auden. Morton Marcus: That was Nigel Roberts reading his poem, obviously, “The Quote from Auden“. And now, our next poet.

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Alan Wearne: It's somewhat longer than Nigel‘s, okay? Alan Wearne is my name and what I'm going to read is perhaps a bit longer than Nigel‘s, so I‘m not certain how long we- Morton Marcus: Go ahead, just do it

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Alan Wearne: Well, this is a section from my verse novel, "The Nightmare," and what it deals with is the narrator of this thing, Ian, has had an affair, a kind of an affair going, a friendship and affair going with a woman that works in

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a place called the Crystal Palace Health Spa and Businessman's Club, and she's a hostess there, and he has got to know her and likes her. And in this section she tells about her friend Simone who has died, and he goes and visits her for the

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last time. I think it's about all that needs to be said. It‘s- there are references here to a number of Australian jazz groups in an Australian jazz- a Playboy music poll. They got them in the United States, we also have them, or had them here some

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years ago. Music poll for Australian play and jazz groups, so they were names of Australian jazz groups. The speaker is Ian: At my post office box a message hers, wanting to see me. "The Crystal Palace, Sunday night. Dear Ian, Simone has

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died. No one wanted to speak after Lecki told us, this waste imone had overdosed, was dead, ndTez: "This waste pisses me r ght off." Grief was intended ure, but if any remaining ystique stirs into Simone it lazes and fades. Ghoulish besi

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e it as obsessions ease, thou e may stay amazed. Her boys eturn. She really gave them so ething. Recycled execs, fazed, q ivering for the club h stess's exotic charms. I ne er tried it, have neither ca h, credit nor desire for the mu

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hy prattle of ocker sentiment, Plying Tez, anyone, with such i an abuse, is so pathetic i 's chuck-making.) We didn't hoose a brief encounter educed to an ever-diminishin sob-rattle, regulating our friendship to an "Aw, gee,

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hanks." "A twin isn't your thin , Darls. It's better on our own. Done a few grouse twins, though with Simone." "Yeah, but if I l ke one lasting, say, an afternoon, what do I offer?" " anks."

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pisses me right off, I can tell you. Needn't to be a prof, Darls, to realize how pathetic. Do you think I'm a bitch? I would have cried but my doctor friend was waiting. And that was okay, until after we'd been through what he likes, I bawled

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and howled. For months I'd heard about his wife, and kids, and grandkids. So as he called me Terrychick, and Terrypet, I gave him an hour of Simone. And still her boys return. She really gave them something. Now I've thought it's my turn, to hell with all

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the ifs and buts and excuses inside my head. I'll try double shifts: noon to 6am, six days a week makes some money for one thing. (The only thing) So straight it's loony, so scary it's thinking that this time I'd really flipped, getting out of

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here like this, fucking 14 hours a day for a trip! Overseas? Still, like to see you one more time before I leave, Darls. Terry." My friend worked but the shift finished soon. Television showed

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a distracted youth's big city adventures. "Good movie, huh," I was joined by Shelly, thin, chiffony, more than just whacked, leaning on some bouncer baboon, wanting my opinion on the lightest jazz section of an ancient Australian Playboy music

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poll: Dick Hughes, Famous Five, Crossfire, The Galapagos Duck, The Col Nolan Trio. What were these names, demanding inspection and verdict? "Know jazz?" "A bit." Oh, tell her who, tell her the best. The best? Shelly you want the best?

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(Graham Bell? Ray Price?) My mind stuck to jabbing with it's ahh-ahh-ahh pin, I chose The Duck. "You did know jazz," Shelly seemed impressed. But someone came calling, she retired for work. TV told us what God makes and the baboon

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split. (Would've been no use. Had she the shakes? I'd just sat waiting, listening, watching her lean on the jerk.) Pi O: Well, I'll go into- into one. Morton Marcus: Could you identify-

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Pi O: Yeah, I'll do. Morton Marcus: We are listening to a gathering of Australian poets the first night that Joe Stroud, Anita Wilkins, and I were in Australia, and that is March 12, a Sunday night, 1989.

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And we are about to listen to Pi O read a really wonderful poem, but right now we are going take a musical break and we will be back with some announcements. Unknown: [Music]

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Joseph Stroud: Tape that people are hearing tonight, we‘re giving just only one- one sense of what- one kind of an idea of what Australian poetry is all about, this is the night of performance poets. And later on in our programs, you'll be

00:29:24.920 - 00:29:38.420

hearing an entirely different kind of Australian poetry, more lyric, more dramatic, and intense, and so forth. But the the poet that I want to call people's attention to on the program on the tape that we have is the poet who's going to read

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next Pi O. He's going to be a really an amazing poem, I believe it's the SHAKESPEARE NEVER HEARD THE BOMB DROP Morton Marcus: Yeah.

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Joseph Stroud: -and we don't hav a lot of time. So why don't w just get right on into that that poem, Mort, and let hi take it away? Morton Marcus: Okay.

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Joseph Stroud: It's an astonishing poem. He's really a remarkable poet. Morton Marcus: Okay, here we go again with the poet's down under, and Pi O is just about to read his poem.

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Pi O: This is Pi O Fear never ever heard the bomb drop. And he never ever heard blitzkrieg bop or a whoop bop-a-lo or a whoop-bam-bop. And no ode he ever wrote, ever write the moon like we did and left a

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boot print and no stream he ever heard about or wrote about or swam in was ever spark-a-lark-a-larkaling. Let's go to that part of the brain controlling speech discovered in 1852 and open it like David Brewster did in 1916 when he

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invented the kaleidoscope. Head down that glass, hold that schnitzel, drop that jargon, hang that woman threw that punch. So just take a moment, a moment in the old Anglo Saxon unit of time, a fuckin minute and a half. So stick around,

00:31:17.120 - 00:31:31.970

you'll see raffle tickets go down the plug hold, three corkscrews surrender, the radio been handcuffed, an ink bottle with leukemia, and magnet kissing a hot plate, and a thermometer after affection. No need to oh and ah, no need to oh

00:31:31.970 - 00:31:47.120

and ah, the first exclamation mark appeared out of the blue in 1553 and 34 years later got bent into a question mark. And for Christ's sake, don't ask me where I'm going. All I know for sure is that the central nervous system transmits images to the

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brain at 265 miles per hour, so hold on to the rails. Where we're going, the size and weight of your brain won't matter. And elephants got more brains than we have and a dolphins got more wrinkles. Janis Joplin's brain weighed in at 51 ounces and Walt

00:32:03.590 - 00:32:19.430

Whitman's at 45. So what's an IQ or two or three or four or five between friends? Having a great brain in fact, can be a decidedly dangerous thing. They sliced poor comrade Lenin's brain up into 31,000 separate pieces and began prodding and

00:32:19.430 - 00:32:36.440

probing looking for a word of "Das Kapital" perhaps, who knows. When they were through, they plopped it into alcohol. Abracadabra, it seems, was a Syrian God. So come as you are, no IQ necessary. Repeat no IQ necessary. I don't care how dumb

00:32:36.440 - 00:32:52.760

you are; only 1% of the population has an IQ over 140 and the brainious bastard of the lot is a four year old, Kim Ung-yong of Seoul who does calculus for a joke, speaks four languages, and can write poetry that rhymes. Hope it chokes on

00:32:52.760 - 00:33:06.830

an anecdote. He's probably the bastard that gets to press the button on the world. It's no accident that the first IQ test was invented by Charles Darwin's cousin, Francis Galton in 1882 when he got a lot of baboons and ning-nongs to guess the weight

00:33:06.830 - 00:33:22.760

of rocks, work out the difference between two different sounds, and for his tour de force, how long it took them to react to ouch a pinprick. For my liking, you can come as you are, I hate theories that tell people how dumb they are. I sink, you

00:33:22.760 - 00:33:36.770

sink, [unidentified]. If you're reading this, the only thing you'll need from here on end are a couple of strips of raw bacon to use as bookmarks. Unknown: [Laughter]

00:33:36.770 - 00:33:45.970

Pi O: I have been reading it for years. Billy Marshall-Stoneking: My name is Billy Marshall-Stoneking and this is a poem called: VENTRILOQUIST

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I remember that summer when she'd pull out Charlie, which was what she affectionately called my prick. And being an artist, she'd draw a face, two eyes, eyebrows, and a nose on it. Then, without moving her lips, she‘d go to work. "Hello,

00:34:08.100 - 00:34:27.720

how are you? My name is Charlie." The first time I laughed, it was like meeting a stranger. We stared at each other. "What do you do? What's your name?" I couldn't take my eyes off him. He was very fast, very witty, a great sense of

00:34:27.720 - 00:34:44.040

humor. We swapped a few stories, we talked about her; he wanted to talk about her. Both of us knew what we wanted. There was no hiding it. After a while Charlie started taking over. He became the center of attention, the life of the party. He'd stay

00:34:44.040 - 00:34:59.310

up all night, next morning she'd ring me. "How's Charlie? Are you looking after him?" "Sure," I'd say, giving him a reassuring pat. There was no stopping him. He was the picture of confidence: warm and fun loving, he gave me a hell of a time, he

00:34:59.310 - 00:35:18.360

gave away all my secrets. One day unexplainably she added eyelashes, a beauty spot, and bright red lipstick. The transformation was remarkable. Charlie had changed into a woman. It called me “big boy“ in a squeaky voice. It pouted and

00:35:18.360 - 00:35:33.180

pulled faces, I blushed. Then it became political. Overnight, I became a total shit. A chauvinist pig. It wanted to know, what kind of relationship was this, anyway, it chastised me for not being able to see beyond the end of my dick. The

00:35:33.180 - 00:35:51.420

rest of me was speechless. Later, the ventriloquist split, taking her paints, her pens, her mandolin, and clothes. “You never talk to me anymore“ she said, "so long." She left Charlie behind. He slept all day, the old eloquence was gone.

00:35:51.810 - 00:36:08.100

I couldn't put words in his mouth, then his face disappeared entirely. It was a shock at first, but I survived. Now, taking a piss sometimes I actually smile, remembering those days and nights of indelible lust when love was

00:36:08.100 - 00:36:31.140

neither deaf, nor dumb, nor altogether blind. Pi O: Otherwise [cross talk] I just hated the idea of free speech. Hey, well, what do we think? Pretty good. You have to talk to

00:36:31.140 - 00:36:47.610

us at the [unidentified] Nigel Roberts: One of your biggest poets and poetry was for- equality within readings for- for women within readings. Yes?

00:36:48.360 - 00:36:56.190

Pi O: Yes, Nigel, go on. Billy Marshall-Stoneking: That's why are they so well represented? Nigel Roberts: One of the points I'm trying to make. Yes.

00:36:56.190 - 00:37:22.440

But could you- could you sort of tell the American audience for example, how you see women being in the arts here, I mean-? Pi O: Why me? No, it's my place- Nigel Roberts: You you've worked for them? I mean-

00:37:22.530 - 00:37:25.200

Pi O: With them, I work with them. Nigel Roberts: Yes. Pi O: Right. Nigel Roberts: Yeah.

00:37:25.230 - 00:37:31.980

Pi O: Right. Well, I mean- Nigel Roberts: This is up to you. Pi O: You say what you want to say, I don't understand what you want me to-

00:37:32.950 - 00:37:48.570

Unknown: Amateurs. [Laughter] Yeah, let it go Pi O: I think. Yeah. And this is a more personal view. I think 20 years ago, in Australia, there obviously were women poet

00:37:48.570 - 00:37:59.370

, but probably the scene wa more dominated by male poets Joseph Stroud: Top ranking. There were a few, there wer quite four or five women po ts who would be classed as being

00:38:00.850 - 00:38:21.460

Pi O: Exactly. Joe's right. [Unidentified] Gwen Harwood, well- since then, I think there's been a- I mean, there's a lot of women have decided that they can do it, not only meaning- can meaning write, but can meaning publish, and if

00:38:21.550 - 00:38:41.050

nobody else will publish them they'd come out and publish themselves, things like that. That has occurred in the past 10 years or so. I think probably, and this is a very subjective statement, that probably the best poetry in Australia, on the

00:38:41.080 - 00:38:59.800

whole seems to tend more towards men, but in the world of prose fiction, it could be good case made out that women have dominated that in the past 10 or 12 years, they've really taken over. Not necessarily novels, but in short fiction and in

00:38:59.800 - 00:39:16.510

short story, I mean, they came right through. Unknown: Novels, as well, yeah. Pi O: Yeah, a lot that- read that match in the novels, but it seems to be more just to line up in those sort of lines. And it

00:39:16.510 - 00:39:32.850

wasn't that the scene- I don't believe the scene was denied to women poets, it just was that they probably needed the confidence to charge into it. Unknown: I mean

00:39:32.850 - 00:39:48.520

Pi O: Well, thats my opinion Unknown: I mean, anyone who starts- anyone- If you've got a magazine, I mean, 90% of the contribution- or not that high, but, you know, well over 60, 70% of the contributions are women

00:39:48.000 - 00:39:55.470

Pi O: Well now, sure. now. Unknown: But but even- even 1970 when sort of, you know, I was pretty-

00:39:55.830 - 00:40:06.950

Nigel Roberts: I don't agree with you. I mean, I could- I could offer evidence to the- to the opposite. Unknown: That would be magazines? Billy Marshall-Stoneking: Anyway, maybe in Melbourne. Melbourne's

00:40:06.950 - 00:40:24.260

always been ahead of the other cities in its political- Pi O: Talking about stature for our friends in the Bay Area. Unknown: Why not? Go- Pi O: I find myself from Melbourne and Nigel and Billy

00:40:24.260 - 00:40:32.650

are from- [cross talk] I'm not saying we're better, we just write in different sort of- in different areas. Billy Marshall-Stoneking: I‘m a hybrid, I really learned about the craft from Melbourne [unidentified]

00:40:34.400 - 00:40:55.130

Pi O: But I think it's not quite- it's not quite the case, because you could line up cases all over the world and demolish them with other examples. And Sydney is probably- an American equivalent probably be like the Bay Area. Melbourne, an

00:40:55.130 - 00:41:06.080

equivalent would probably be like Boston. Except there are 500 [unidentified]. Joseph Stroud: You could say as much for Melbourne. Unknown: Don't you like Boston?

00:41:06.740 - 00:41:17.600

Pi O: I do like Boston, I‘ve been there. I think there's probably- there's probably- It could probably be seen that way. Unknown: Yeah. Pi O: It seems like that Melbourne, I think has probably

00:41:17.600 - 00:41:34.550

had a more of a tradition, particularly earlier on, in social realism. Seeing more in arts [unidentified] site. However, in both places there exceptions that prove the rule. Unknown: Yeah

00:41:34.900 - 00:41:48.570

Pi O: So it doesn't- that doesn't matter, that doesn't hold water, it doesn't really matter. I mean, another thing about the differences between Melbourne and Sydney, because I did- well I'm working on a very long poem

00:41:48.810 - 00:42:11.310

about migrant riots in the 50s, and 60s in Australia, because a lot of Australians don't realize that the post-war baby boom, migration program, high employment syndrome had its downs also. And one thing I realized when I was doing this

00:42:11.310 - 00:42:33.660

research for this long poem was that over 60% of the people who went to this one particular camp, which was the largest camp in Australia, went to Melbourne, or Victoria, and the other 40% went to Sydney or New South Wales. Sydney had some- like a

00:42:33.660 - 00:42:55.680

population 1 million higher than Melbourne did. And 40% into [unidentified] like 3 million people wasn't as devastating as 60% in 2 million people. And so Melbourne became sort of- had- had all these incredible sort of class ghettos and in this case,

00:42:55.680 - 00:43:10.530

sort of nash- national ghettos around the place. And so the whole complex, the political structure in the place was very tight. I mean, the migrant vote is quite a large thing. It was even quite large thing in the 60s. And-

00:43:10.600 - 00:43:24.090

Unknown: [Unidentified] Yeah, but, um, so that- so that- it‘s got those kind of differences. I mean, Sydney's got, it's ghettos too, but not as profound somehow, as in, say, Melbourne, so there are those

00:43:24.090 - 00:43:35.610

kind of difference. Also, the political differences between the cities is really interesting, because in Melbourne, you've got a lot of agitation, a lot of a lot of people upset, a lot of people who don't like what's going on,

00:43:35.610 - 00:43:49.410

who try to do things c llectively, who try to change t ings was Melbourne. Sydney, w ereas Sydney, it's got much more individuals and they go at a more constant pace in whatev r's happening, whether it be the art scene or the political sc

00:43:49.410 - 00:44:04.490

ne, or- or whate Alan Wearne: Also, I think Melbourne's establishment was for many years, perhaps not quite now, but for many years, the old money establishment, which rules the country, and it

00:44:04.490 - 00:44:23.960

was always- the key was always held there to ruling the country. Perhaps not quite so much now, and- but still, the interesting thing, of course, is at the moment that Sydney is- Sydney or the state it entails, New South Wales, is a sort of a

00:44:24.290 - 00:44:35.730

rather vaguely new right kind of leader, and down and out Melbourne we're still muddling along with social democracy. Pi O: What about you, Nigel? Nigel Roberts: No opinions.

00:44:35.750 - 00:44:47.710

Unknown: Come on! Billy Marshall-Stoneking: I never go to fucking Melbourne. I mean, that's why I don't know [unidentified] Paul Thompson: Now as an observation from someone coming

00:44:47.710 - 00:45:05.230

from England, I woudl say that is broadly true. I think that certainly, in having been here four years, you can see that the content, the intellectual life of Australia basically derived from, and in a sense still r sides in Melbourne. It does.

00:45:05.440 - 00:45:19.090

nd formal stylistic innovation s likely to be found in Sydney. nd in the end, it's got a hell f a lot to do with being cold nd being on the beach. I think t's got a lot to do with the- Unknown: The seasons?

00:45:19.000 - 00:45:28.780

Paul Thompson: No, no, no, it's to do with the fact that in Melbourne, it is colder there. People live indoors, they live in restaurants, the only subject to talk about in Melbourne is restaurants. Whereas in Sydney, the only subject there ever

00:45:28.780 - 00:45:41.380

spoken about anyway is real estate. If you want an intelligent conversation, you got to have a plane ticket. Joseph Stroud: Maybe we think we have time for another round of- you all have sort of a short-ish problem you might wanna- you

00:45:41.380 - 00:45:44.530

want to read? Morton Marcus: You have another section of that poem that you've- Unknown: [Inaudible]

00:45:44.530 - 00:46:03.160

Pi O: We got about maybe 10 minutes left on the tape. Morton Marcus: Less, you got maybe 8 mintes. Nigel Roberts: This is a poem I wrote in California in 1980. This is an Australian wandering.

00:46:06.060 - 00:46:19.920

THE HOUSE SPECIAL Bellino, of Dynek International, has ordered a Whiskey Sour so I punt on a Banana Daiquiri, the house special. "A fag‘s drink," declares Bellino as he moves to check out a chick, with whom

00:46:19.920 - 00:46:36.990

he's established some eye contact. "Hold the daiquiri, Chuck, a gin and tonic," and I follow. "This is Nigel from Australia." "Hello." "Hi." But I don't catch her name as Bellino is hustling the conversation on from the who are you to the who

00:46:36.990 - 00:46:52.890

she wants to be. And she is telling him of a spotlight ambition to be a singer, a variant of Roberta Flack, and in time, a piano bar, or a small club somewhere. The sometime and somewhere schedule sets Bellino's index pecking at her

00:46:52.890 - 00:47:07.950

left tit as he believes in Target Setting, Assertiveness, and Self Maximization to which, he puts his wallet on the bar and asks her price on ten Carnegie Hall tickets in a year's time because if she wants to, that's where she could be.

00:47:08.970 - 00:47:24.480

"Well," the singer demurs, and as I go for new drinks, apparently, I miss something for when I return Bellino is stabbing at that breast again. "I told you I don't eat garbage and you're feeding me garbage, crap and garbage." “The way it

00:47:24.480 - 00:47:41.460

goes“ she says, “the way it goes. Thanks for the advice and drinks but I've got a vocal coach in the morning.“ "Win some, lose some," says Bellino who then pays his tab and goes. So I'm cut loose in the Valley Bar and Grill, just on closing.

00:47:42.360 - 00:48:06.170

"One on the house?" asks Chuck, "What will be?" And without hesitation I say "A Banana Daiquiri." "One Banana Daiquiri coming up," says Chuck. Alan Wearne: Reading something which is perhaps a bit- so I

00:48:06.170 - 00:48:16.190

don't know. I want to read something, but- Alan Wearne: Well, okay, well, we'll do this, I'll just have Billy Marshall-Stoneking: Go for it this brief introduction. We're going? Right. This is spoken by

00:48:16.190 - 00:48:29.570

Terry, the working girl who works at the Crystal Palace Health Spa and Businessman's Clu . And this is her telling me t the time she went off o Malaysia with her boyfriend Ro s who is probably a dealer, thou h we don't exactly know in wha

00:48:30.590 - 00:48:41.820

. There is a word here, Tull , which remo- refers o Melbourne‘s Internation l Airpor Though no one came to see us off, felt very touristy as I lugged my travel bag round Tulla. (People were getting

00:48:41.820 - 00:48:54.360

hugged, others howling. I'd wait till I get back. Mum, thrilled with the batik I bought her and Melinda.) Plane straight to K L, then after his business we caught a night train to Penang, getting off real buggered. For those first few days, we were

00:48:54.360 - 00:49:06.480

wrecks and with all those students I felt out of place. Still we smoked a bit (and stoned I never felt like saving face). What'd I do back home? One day I was a model, and next, oh, just the receptionist. Talking abaout dope though,

00:49:06.480 - 00:49:18.870

about music, sex, they were okay: it never seemed like a race to prove anything. With Laszlo and Laurel we got into the craziest hash; ripped open our brains. "Yeah," Ross grinned, "real heart-starter." Laurel said, ‘‘I just can't get

00:49:18.870 - 00:49:32.730

over the dope. I just can't get over it. I just -‘‘ Ross told Laszlo "That won't wash. I deal with the bastards. I know. On their scale, they're living in clover.‘‘ For an hour I suppose, we can't be sure, we lay down in a room under a slow fan, made

00:49:32.730 - 00:49:45.960

love, slept till night, when I caught music, shouting, as a carnival sort of crept into my head. Still sleepy, still stoned, we four moved outside. Laszlo said, ‘‘this place is crawling with whores.‘‘ Ross put his arm around me and as we

00:49:45.960 - 00:49:58.230

moved on, I might have wept, felt like the happiest day I'd ever had, I guess. Even less hurry the next, till at night I heard him arguing. He left early (I didn't wake), he'd never really tell me anything. The note said, ‘‘Wait here, Terri.

00:49:58.290 - 00:50:11.340

See ya in a few days. Sorry. Love, Ross." Laurel told me not to worry: "By the way, what's his business?" Spent a day on the beach, sleeping. "Hey, hey, good looking, what's cookin?" Ross arrived back bouncy: whatever had been done, had been

00:50:11.340 - 00:50:24.960

done, and we went out to dinner. I wouldn't interfere then, now I'd I ignore it. Something had gone right: the amount that we put on his credit card, all those accounts he'd placed in his- in his briefcase, though he got up early, disappeared again.

00:50:31.230 - 00:50:51.470

Pi O: TOO MANY IN THE CORNER. Pi O. Everything comes ups and down. Exactly, exactly man, exactly. If you've got the money, you've got the gut. Doesn't matter who good looking you are. Exactly, exactly man, exactly. All the

00:50:51.470 - 00:51:08.480

drivers talk about, look at the stupid, look at the idiot, of course I am idiot, what can I do? 30-40 people looking for my job. Exactly, exactly man, exactly. Old or new Australia for this country is digo(?). Exactly. Up, Up, down, down,

00:51:08.480 - 00:51:29.690

right, right, left, left, like monkeys. Exactly, exactly man, exactly. What's good for this country come, day by day, day by day, wait to go into the ground. All my kids laborers like me. Exactly, exactly man, exactly. I think so, Australia, good

00:51:29.690 - 00:51:56.200

country for Australia people. I think so. Exactly, exactly man. Billy Marshall-Stoneking: COUNTRY AND WESTERN Sitting in this pub outside of Melbourne, everybody's talking like a fool. Liquid amber flows and it's your Wally. If you're

00:51:56.200 - 00:52:17.530

gonna be an Aussie, join the school. Cowards talk loudest when they're frightened, the barmaid is harassed, and underpaid. There's blokes here who can't afford their mortgage who reckon that the abbos got it made? I can't tell you all the

00:52:17.530 - 00:52:40.750

heartbroke details. Go on, you got plenty of your own. Let's have another drink and play the jukebox. The Blues is just a style, not a home. Everybody's sorry about something. It's said you've got to pay before you play. But I don't want to dance

00:52:40.750 - 00:53:04.960

my beers in lonesome, believe in what the singer has to say. No, I don't want to talk about the sorrow. Nostalgia never brought me peace of mind. Last week might be closer than tomorrow. But you won't change Agent Orange into a lime. No, I won't

00:53:04.960 - 00:53:28.210

tell you all the heartbroke details. I'm sure that you've got plenty of your own. Just pour another drink into the jukebox. The Blues is just a style, not a home. They say the ozone layer's getting thinner, and even seals and dolphins

00:53:28.240 - 00:53:51.460

catch the AIDS. The longer we sit here doing nothing the more the acid rains on our parade. Of course I'm just an ordinary bastard with a half assed Aussie accent, that's for sure. But I ain't gonna blind myself and no one. Even though the picture's

00:53:51.490 - 00:54:11.290

slightly blurred. No, I'm not one for talking part-broke tall tales and I'm sure that you're as empty as a stone. So pour another drunk in to your boots mate. The blues ain't in the muscle, but the bone.

00:54:16.390 - 00:54:31.750

Morton Marcus: That was a recording made by Joe Stroud and yours truly, in Sydney, Australia on March 12, 1989. We will be presenting other Australian poets, interviews, and poets reading their work in future weeks. Joe, what's up for

00:54:31.750 - 00:54:40.900

next week? Joseph Stroud: Next week, we will be featuring five or six writers who have published in the most recent Porter Gulch Review It will be poets and some prose people.

00:54:41.680 - 00:54:54.010

Morton Marcus: Wonderful, I would like to say that Plaza Books has provided a grant that helped make the last hour of programming possible. Plaza Books is located on the Pacific Garden Mall in Santa Cruz, we appreciate their support. Please

00:54:54.010 - 00:55:07.390

stay tuned for jazz which is going to be with various hosts for the next several weeks. Tonight's hosts is Aton and if you're listening for Tim Folger and "Things Ain't What They Used To Be", that show is now on Monday afternoons from three to

00:55:07.390 - 00:55:12.760

five. Joseph Stroud: And things will not be what they used to be without Tim around here following our show. Morton Marcus: That's true. Tim, if you're listening and we know

00:55:12.760 - 00:55:20.650

you are, we miss you. Joseph Stroud: We do. Morton Marcus: But Aton has got a great show planned. So until next week when Joe Stroud will be here with the Porter Gulch

00:55:20.650 - 00:55:23.860

poets. This is Morton Marcus saying, thanks for listening in.