00:00:00.180 - 00:01:39.430

Morton Marcus: “Point of view, Hear Democracy Now“ on Central Coast Public Radio KUSP, weekdays at 9am. Good evening ladies and gentlemen, this is Morton Marcus and this is The Poetry Show and tonight April 13th, 2008 marks

00:01:39.490 - 00:02:05.080

the six-hundred and twenty first anniversary of twenty-nine pilgrims meeting at the South- at the Tabard Inn in South Mark to embark on the pilgrimaged Canterbury in Geoffrey Chaucer's, "The Canterbury Tales." That was on April 13th,

00:02:05.110 - 00:02:27.850

1387, when that fictitious pilgrimage began. That book is one of my favorite books of all time. And it is an amazing book, which unfortunately, is not read by many people today because you have to know Middle English and the sentence structure, although

00:02:27.850 - 00:02:46.780

it almost- and the vocabulary, although it almost seems to be comprehensible, unless you've really learned it it's not, and it just gets too painful to read. Let me read you the famous introduction in the original Old English and then I will read a

00:02:46.780 - 00:03:01.820

translation of it and start to talk about why this is my favorite book and go into some of the pieces in translation. The beginning: Here bygynneth the Book of THE TALES OF CANTERBURY

00:03:02.870 - 00:03:20.390

Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote, The droghte of March hath perced to the roote And bathed every veyne in swich licour, Of which vertu engendred is the flour; Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth Inspired hath in every holt and heeth The

00:03:20.390 - 00:03:38.480

tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne, And smale foweles maken melodye, That slepen al the nyght with open eye- (So priketh hem Nature in hir corages); Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages And palmeres

00:03:38.480 - 00:03:57.830

for to seken straunge strondes To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes; And specially from every shires ende Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende, The hooly blisful martir for to seke That hem hath holpen, whan that they were

00:03:57.830 - 00:04:12.050

seeke. Now, the pilgrimages to Canterbury - and this of course is the Middle Ages, where pilgrimages are taken to all different Holy Roman Catholic sites in Western Europe - the

00:04:12.050 - 00:04:31.040

pilgrimage to Canterbury in England was to honor Sir Thomas A Becket. And he had been assassinated by the king several hundred years before, a 100 years before and was the most popular of the English Saints at that time. So let me read you

00:04:31.040 - 00:04:47.420

now what I have just read you, but now in a modern English translation, though it is still verse. Notice that I was reading couplets that were rhymed, actually iambic- iambic couplets, iambic pentameter couplets that were rhymed.

00:04:48.290 - 00:05:03.530

Here's what I just read you: Here begins the Book of THE CANTERBURY TALES When April with his sweet showers has pierced the drought of March to the root and bathed every vein in such moisture as

00:05:03.530 - 00:05:20.120

has power to bring forth a flower; when also Zephyrus with his sweet breath has breathed spirit into the tender new shoots and every wood and meadow; and the young sun has half his course in the sign of the ram; and small birds sing

00:05:20.120 - 00:05:37.880

melodies and sleep with their eyes open all the night; so nature pricks them in their hearts, then people long to go on pilgrimages and palmers long to seek strange shores, and far off shrines known in various lands. And especially from the

00:05:37.880 - 00:05:58.070

ends of every shire in England, they come to Canterbury to seek the holy, blissful martyr, who helped them when they were sick. So that is the beginning of this tale and it is one of the most famous opening lines of poetry, certainly in the English

00:05:58.070 - 00:06:19.880

language, not everywhere else. What is so amazing about this book to me is that it is a long poem, it runs around 500 pages, I'm not going to say how many lines it is. But it starts off with the author telling you how he went to the inn at the

00:06:19.880 - 00:06:35.390

Tabard, the famous Tabard, famous now because of his book, and fell in with these 29 pilgrims, who are all going to Canterbury. Then he describes them in great detail. This is one of the first times that any kind of detail like this had

00:06:35.390 - 00:06:52.970

been used in literature. Much, much, much later, hundreds upon hundreds of years later, in the 19th century in fact, we finally have a detailed description of places, and people, and how they dressed. So this is modern in that way. He describes them. And

00:06:52.970 - 00:07:11.210

he implies by what he describes about their dress, and how they hold themselves, what kind of people they are, what their personalities were. And many of this is a study in medieval behavior, and medieval, how shall I say it, behavior of

00:07:11.210 - 00:07:31.640

manners. He actually leads you through the pilgrims from the highest social order to the lowest. And he goes from the knight all the way down to the ploughman, and therefore, he sets up the whole social structure of the Middle Ages.

00:07:32.260 - 00:07:51.790

Then the- the host of the Tabard Inn is so taken with this group that he says, “why don't I ride along with you to Canterbury, and ride along back. And what we'll do is, we'll have a story contest, and each one of you will tell a story on the way

00:07:51.790 - 00:08:07.570

down, and on the way back. And I will judge who the loser is, and the loser will have to buy everyone's supper at my Tabard.“ Now, the host's a pretty sharp guy, you can tell just from that. One, he wants to get away from his wife who is yelling at

00:08:07.570 - 00:08:25.420

him from inside the Tabard. Two, he has set himself up here to have all these people come back and give him quite a deal of money, since they will be returning to his inn to buy this huge meal and probably stay the night again. So he will be the

00:08:25.420 - 00:08:42.820

judge, an arbiter of these stories. Now, what is so interesting about these stories is that the stories reflect the personalities of the people who tell them, this is very, very modern in concept. Also, people who don't like each other, or

00:08:42.820 - 00:09:02.200

don't like the stories that are being told, tell stories to counter the stories that they haven't liked, or the people that they haven't liked. So it becomes an amazing tapestry of human nature, and it's just a brilliant concept, I think one

00:09:02.200 - 00:09:19.630

of the most brilliant concepts of all world literature. So let me go on with some of this opening and then I'm going to read the famous prologue in which he describes the- the other pilgrims and I will do some of this in Middle English

00:09:19.630 - 00:09:35.130

so that you get the difference, but I'll just do a few lines. So after he has done his short prologue, he goes on to tell you what this is all about. And he says this in Middle English: Bifil that in that seson, on a day, In Southwerk at the Tabard

00:09:35.130 - 00:09:53.610

as I lay Redy to wenden on my pilgrymage To Caunterbury with ful devout corage, At nyght was come into that hostelrye Wel nyne and twenty in a compaignye Of sondry folk, by aventure yfalle In felaweshipe, and pilgrimes were they alle, That

00:09:53.610 - 00:10:09.690

toward Caunterbury wolden ryde. The chambres and the stables weren wyde, And wel we weren esed atte beste; And shortly, whan the sonne was to reste, So hadde I spoken with hem everichon That I was of hir felaweshipe anon, And made

00:10:09.690 - 00:10:27.540

forward erly for to ryse To take our wey, ther as I yow devyse. And what he just said was, in English translation: It befell that one day in that season, as I was in Southwark at the Tabard Inn, ready to go on my pilgrimage to Canterbury with

00:10:27.540 - 00:10:43.710

the most devout heart, at night there came into that hostelry company of nine and twenty people, all sorts of people who had met by chance, and all of them were pilgrims who were riding toward Canterbury. The chambers and the stables were

00:10:43.710 - 00:11:00.030

spacious, and we were made most comfortable. And shortly when the sun had gone down, I had spoken with every one of them, so that I had soon become one of their group, and made an arrangement to rise early to be on our way, as I shall tell you.

00:11:01.950 - 00:11:18.360

But before he goes on his way, he is going to tell you about these people and what type of people they were. So let me read, if not all of these at least, some of them, here was the knight, and certainly, some are described more than others,

00:11:18.360 - 00:11:35.040

but just sit back and enjoy these descriptions of these people. I always like to read the way the difference in sentence structure was: "A KNYGHT ther was, and that a worthy man."

00:11:35.040 - 00:11:49.980

And what we have in the modern English is: There was a KNIGHT, a valiant man, who from the time when he had first begun to adventure out, had loved chivalry, truth and honor, liberality and courtesy. He had proved his

00:11:49.980 - 00:12:02.690

worth and his Lord's wars, in which he had written as far as any man, both in Christendom and in heathen lands, and he had always been honored for his valor. And of course, what we're talking about here are the

00:12:02.690 - 00:12:15.410

Crusades, and the knight as we will see is just coming back from the Crusades. He was in Alexandria when it was won. Many times he had sat at the head of the table in Prussia, about knights of all

00:12:15.410 - 00:12:33.260

nations. He had campaigned in Lithuania and in Russia more often than any other Christian man of his rank. He had also been in Grenada at the siege of Algeciras and had fought in Belmarie. He had been at Ayas and Attalia, when they were won,

00:12:33.470 - 00:12:50.510

and he had sailed upon the Mediterranean with many a noble host. He had been in 15 mortal battles and fought for our faith at Tlemcen, three times in tournament's and always slain his foe. The same worthy knight had also been at one time with

00:12:50.510 - 00:13:07.130

the Lord of Balat against heathen- against the heathen in Turkey, and always he had won the highest honor, although he was valiant, he was prudent and bore himself as meekly as a maiden. Never in all his life had he been rude to anyone. He

00:13:07.130 - 00:13:26.600

was a gentle, perfect knight. But to tell you about his array, his horses were good, but he was not gaily dressed, he wore a fustian tunic, much stained by his habergeon, for he had just come back from his expedition, and was on his way to make his

00:13:26.600 - 00:13:41.600

pilgrimage. So even though that the attire is not described very much, we get the picture of this ideal knight. Not only had he fought in all these battles during the Crusades, but the minute he gets

00:13:41.600 - 00:13:55.520

off the boat, he doesn't even change or get clean clothes, he immediately goes on a pilgrimage to Canterbury. Here's his son, is the next character: With him was his son, a young squire, or as they would say, in

00:13:55.520 - 00:14:15.230

Middle English sqúier. Here with him was his son, a young SQUIRE, a lover and a gay youth on his way to knighthood, with locks as curly as if they had been pressed. He was about 20 years old, I guess. He was of normal height and wonderfully agile and

00:14:15.230 - 00:14:31.520

of great strength. He had been on cavalry expeditions for a while in Flanders, in Artois, and Picardy, and in this short time, he had borne himself well in the hope of winning his ladies favor. His clothing was embroidered so as to look like a

00:14:31.520 - 00:14:52.010

meadow, all full of fresh flowers, white and red. He sang or fluted all the day long. He was as useful as the month of May. His gown was short, with long wide sleeves. He knew how to sit his horse well and ride beautifully. He could compose

00:14:52.010 - 00:15:08.450

songs and poems, joust, and dance too, and draw and write. So hotly did he love that at night, he slept no more than a nightingale. He was courteous, humble, and serviceable, and carved for his father at the table.

00:15:10.040 - 00:15:22.670

And so there you get more of a picture and more of a sense of purpose- of purpose. And here it comes, another ideal portrait. And in your mind, I ask you this now and I'll answer it later, who do you picture?

00:15:24.470 - 00:15:41.270

A YEOMAN was also with the knight, and no other servants at the time, so it pleased him to ride. The yeoman was dressed in a coat and hood of green. Beneath his belt, he carefully carried a sheaf of bright, keen peacock feathered- feathered

00:15:41.270 - 00:16:00.080

arrows. Well did he know how to take care of his equipment, his arrows never drooped with tired feathers, and in his hand he carried a mighty bow. He was a brown faced man with a close cropped head. He knew all there is to know about woodcraft. On

00:16:00.080 - 00:16:19.340

his arm was a fine wrist guard, and by one side a sword and shield, on the other a bright dagger, well mounted and sharp as the point of a spear. A silver Christopher metal shone on his breast, he carried a horn with a green baldric. I suppose

00:16:19.520 - 00:16:35.090

that he must have been a forester. Well, there you get a real picture, here is this man all in green, with a green hood, and a mighty bow and these beautiful peacock feathers, and at the same time, he has a silver

00:16:35.090 - 00:16:51.440

Christopher medal, so you can see the silver against the green. But here is the ideal picture of the famous English yeoman, the peasant who would win all the great battles at Agincourt and other places- [coughs] pardon me- with his

00:16:51.440 - 00:17:14.420

great bow and arrow, and would become the symbol of England, and of course, I hope, reminded you of Robin Hood, and his happy men, jolly men, oh, yes, Merry Men. And here's what I love, and this really takes it to the next highest person is a prioress, a

00:17:14.420 - 00:17:33.650

nun who is in- in power over and is the ruler of a nunnery. Listen to this, some description of her and we'll go over it, because this really starts to get us into descriptions of character from the way people dress.

00:17:34.650 - 00:17:55.320

There was also a nun, a PRIORESS, whose smile was modest and sweet. Her greatest oath was only by Saint Loy, she was called Madame Eglantine. She sang the divine service well, intoning it in her nose in a most seemly way. And she spoke

00:17:55.320 - 00:18:17.640

French well, and properly after the school of Stratford at Bow. For the French of Paris was unknown to her. Her table manners were admirable. She never let a morsel fall from her lips, nor wet her fingers too deeply in the sauce. Daintily,

00:18:17.640 - 00:18:35.310

she carried a morsel to her lips, taking care that no drops should fall upon her breast. She took much pleasure in proper etiquette. She wiped her upper lip so carefully that no trace of grease could be seen in her cup when she had taken a drink

00:18:35.310 - 00:18:53.550

from it. She helped herself to food in a very proper way. And certainly she was very cheerful, most pleasant and amiable in hearing and took great pains to behave in a well bred fashion, to be stately and mannered and to appear worthy of reverence.

00:18:54.720 - 00:19:12.330

But to speak of her tender feelings, she was so charitable and so full of pity that she would weep if she saw a mouse caught in a trap, and dead or bleeding. She had a few small dogs that she fed with roast meat, or milk and fine bread,

00:19:12.690 - 00:19:30.960

but she wept indeed if one of them died, or if someone hit it smartly with a stick. She was all feeling and tender heart. Her wimple was suitably pleaded, her nose well shaped, her eyes bright a glass, her mouth, very small and soft, and red, and

00:19:30.960 - 00:19:51.570

indeed, she had a fine forehead. It was almost a hand spoon broad, I believe, for certainly, she was not undersized. I noticed that her cloak was becoming. Around her arm she wore a rosary of tiny coral beads marked off with green and

00:19:51.570 - 00:20:16.270

on it hung a lovely golden brooch, on which was written first a crowned “A“ and then "Amor vincit omnia.“ Well, it's a very interesting description because we get this picture of this absolutely dainty nun who one could feel

00:20:16.330 - 00:20:35.050

reverence for, but it's almost too much. And we notice that she is very concerned with her looks, and her bearing and how she deports herself. Her manners are too good. And, obviously, what's what's coming into this description, is the fact that

00:20:35.050 - 00:20:48.970

she is more concerned with how she looks in this world, then she should be concerned with the other world. She was “all feeling and tender hearted“, well, maybe but she seems more concerned with dogs and how to feed them than with human

00:20:48.970 - 00:21:10.660

beings. And her dress, our dear author notes, sort of fits her very, very well, which nuns dress is not supposed to do. And finally, her rosary really is extremely showy, and is not- and remember the knight here, who has no extra servants and who

00:21:12.010 - 00:21:30.790

has no dress to really speak of at all. She is not only very well dressed, but she has this golden brooch hanging, and what's written is “love conquers all“. Now, that certainly would be what a good Christian nun would feel. But "love conquers

00:21:30.790 - 00:21:49.120

all" also is from a another medieval poem, which is talking about physical love. So we know something about this nun, that she is not what she looks. Even her French is not Paris, French, but it's French that she learned at school in England. It is very

00:21:49.120 - 00:22:06.400

interesting, we won't go into her story, but the story that she tells is one of the most brutal, vicious stories in the entire Canterbury Tales, and it really, again, shows her character. Well, what is her counterpart though, he's not

00:22:06.400 - 00:22:23.410

from her nunnery, is a monk who is the head of a monastery. And here is what the monk looked like. There was a MONK, a splendid sort, and inspector of his monasteries estates, who loved venery (hunting), a manly man

00:22:23.560 - 00:22:40.570

capable of being an abbot. He had many a dainty horse in the stable. And when he rode one might hear the bells on his bridle jingle in the wind, as loud and clear as the chapel bell in the place where this monk was in charge. As for the

00:22:40.570 - 00:22:57.130

rule of Saint Maurice, or Saint Benedict, since it was old and somewhat strict, this same monk let old fashioned things pass away, and held to the ways of the modern world. He didn't give a plucked hen for that text, which says that hunters are not

00:22:57.130 - 00:23:16.390

holy men. And that monk when he is heedless of duty is like a fish out of water, that is to say, a monk out of his cloister, but he held that text was not worth an oyster. And I said his opinion was good. Why should he study and drive himself mad,

00:23:16.540 - 00:23:32.560

always poring over a book in the cloister or work with his hands, and labor as St. Augustine ordered. How should the world be served, let Augustine have his labor to himself. Therefore, he was a really hard riding horseman. He had greyhounds as

00:23:32.560 - 00:23:50.200

swift as a bird in flight, riding and hunting the hare were all his joy, for he spared no cost. I saw that his sleeves were edged at the cuff with gray fur and that the finest in the land. And to fasten his hood under his chin, he had a very

00:23:50.200 - 00:24:08.290

intricate pin made of gold. There was a love knot in the bigger end, his head was bald and shone like glass and his face did too, as if he had been anointed. He was a fine fat Lord in splendid shape. His protruding eyes rolled in his

00:24:08.290 - 00:24:27.520

head and glowed like a furnace under a pot. His boots were supple, his horse well grounded. Now, certainly, he was a handsome prelate. He was not pale, like a wasted ghost. His favorite roast was a good fat swan. His palfrey was as brown

00:24:27.520 - 00:24:40.120

as a berry. Well, I think you could hear in that, this is not actually wha you would consider to be a monk This is a guy who is living of the fat of the land and doesn' even want to follow the dictate

00:24:40.120 - 00:25:01.120

of St. Benedict or the othe church fathers on ho monasteries should b maintained. And he just enjoy himself, dresses very richly eats very well because he has slick greasy face, etc, etc. Le me go over one or two mor

00:25:01.120 - 00:25:28.570

characters here. There are as said 29, and I did want to d a character who we will be r ading more about, and that is - I know have him here - the M ller. And this is the mill r. A miller is a person who ope ates a mill, and they ground

00:25:28.570 - 00:25:41.810

wheat into flour. So here s the description of the Me The MILLER was astound fellow- stout fellow indeed, he was rill- M huge, brawny and large boned t o. This was well proved

00:25:41.810 - 00:25:58.790

or wherever he came, he always on the ram at wrestling matches. He was short shouldered and bro d, a thick set knave. There was no door that he could not heav from its hinges or break at a run with his head. His beard as as red as a sow or a fox, a

00:25:58.790 - 00:26:15.980

d as broad as a spade as well. ight on top of his nose, he ad a wart, and on it stood a tu t of hairs, red as the bristles of a sowe‘s ears, his nostrils were black and wide. He wor a sword and buckler by his si e, his mouth was as wide as a gr

00:26:15.980 - 00:26:37.940

at furnace. He was a chatter an a teller of tavern tales, mos ly about sin and revelry. He k ew well how to steal corn nd charge three-fold. And yet he had a thumb of gold, pardee He wore a white coat and a lue hood. He could blow and pl

00:26:37.940 - 00:26:58.100

y a bagpipe well- bagpipe well, and to its tune, he brought us out of town. And then I guess I'm going to g into this, there is The Reeve. Reeve is a high administrator i in a town, in a town council,

00:26:58.790 - 00:27:12.040

o The REEVE was a slender, choleric man. His beard was shaved as close as could be, his hair was short around his ears, the top of his head was clipped like a priests in front, his

00:27:12.110 - 00:27:28.710

legs were very long and lean, like a staff, no calf was visible. He knew very well how to watch over a granary and the bin, no auditor could catch him short. He could calculate according to droughts and rains what the yield of his seed and

00:27:28.780 - 00:27:45.860

grain should be. His Lord's sheep, his cattle, his dairy, his pigs, his horses, his stores and his poultry were wholly in this Reeve‘s power. And under his contract he had given his reckoning since his Lord was 20 years old. No man could find him

00:27:45.930 - 00:28:03.080

to be in arrears. There was no bailiff, or shepherd, or other laborer, whose tricks and plots were unknown to him. They were scared to death of him. His home was a pleasant one, in a meadow. His place was shadowed with green trees. He was a better

00:28:03.150 - 00:28:19.680

buyer than his Lord, he had privately laid by considerable riches. He knew how to please his lord well, underhandedly giving and lending him the lord's own goods, and got thanks and a coat and hood besides. In youth he had learned a good

00:28:19.750 - 00:28:36.840

trade. He was a good craftsman, a carpenter. He sat on a very good farm horse, a dappled gray called Scot. He wore a long blue outer coat, and he carried a rusty blade by his side. This Reeve I am telling you about came from Northfolk near a town

00:28:36.910 - 00:28:54.090

which is called Bawdeswelle. His coat was tucked up around him like a friar's, and he always rode last in our company. Well the Reeve and the Miller now each other, and the Reeve does not like the Miller very much, and we'll talk about tha

00:28:54.360 - 00:29:07.200

in a moment. Let me read you on more character who will also b talking about, one of the mo t famous of the characters, nd that is the WIFE OF BATH nd we'll be talking about her ag in

00:29:09.970 - 00:29:25.240

A good wife there was from near Bath, she was somewhat deaf, Well, just slipped in there i the fact that she's been marrie which was a shame. She had such talent for making cloth that sh five times. She also is ver richly dressed, and she seems

00:29:18.670 - 00:29:30.370

surpassed the weavers of Ypre and of Ghent. In all the pa ish there was no wife entitle to make her Offering before her o be on too many pilgrimages, to too many foreign places fo and if one did certainly she w s so angry that she was out o

00:29:30.310 - 00:29:39.400

a woman during middle- medi val times. And what we will find all charity. Her kerchiefs were very fine fabric. I dare say out about her is, she is lookin for husband number six on that the ones that were on her head on a Sunday must have

00:29:39.400 - 00:29:50.290

weighed 10 pounds. Her hose was a fine scarlet r this pilgrimage. Anyway, we've been talking about Geoffrey Chau d, laced tightly, and her shoes ery new, and supple. Her face er's “Canterbury Tales“, bec use on this day, April 13, in 13

00:29:49.360 - 00:29:59.380

as bold, and handsome, and rud y. She had been a worthy wom 7, the “Canterbury Tales“ began That is Geoffrey Chaucer st n all her life. She had had fiv husbands at the church door asi rted his fictional accou t of the “Canterbury Tales,“ a

00:29:58.330 - 00:30:07.810

e from other company in her yo th, but of that there is no nee d everyone gathering together n April 13, 1387. We will cont nue with the show when we c to speak now. And three times ad she been at Jerusalem, she ha

00:30:08.290 - 00:30:24.190

crossed many a strange river she had been at Rome, and Boul gne, in Galicia at the shri e of St. James, and at Col gne. She knew much about wan ering, by the way. She was gap toothed, to tell the truth. On n ambling horse she said eas

00:30:24.190 - 00:30:41.260

ly, wearing a large wimple, on her head was a hat as broad as buckler or a shield. A foot antle was about her ample hips, nd on her feet a pair of sharp s urs, in company she could l ugh and gossip well, of r medies of love she knew pe

00:30:41.260 - 00:33:01.800

chance, for she knew that art's old dance And this is The Poetry Show and this is Morton Marcus and as you know, this time we devote to public announcements. But first, The Poetry Show on KUSP is supported in part by a grant

00:33:01.980 - 00:33:23.790

from Complete Mailing Service, direct mailing is what they do. Complete Mailing Service can be reached at 425-5556. Let me repeat that: 425-5556. Remember Sunday night at nine, right after The Poetry Show, KUSP presents "From The Bookshelf"

00:33:23.790 - 00:33:44.280

hosted by Gary Shapiro. Each week, Gary presents a spoken word program with stories, authors, and special guests; join us this evening at 9pm following The Poetry Show on Central Coast Public Radio, KUSP. And if you've just tuned

00:33:44.280 - 00:34:02.910

in the first part of the show, doing something we've never done before, and I don't know whether it will be of interest to anyone but me, and that is we are looking at the “Canterbury Tales“ by Geoffrey Chaucer because on April 13, this day in

00:34:02.910 - 00:34:27.930

1387, that is 621 years ago, the fictitious 29 pilgrims set off from the Tabard Inn for their pilgrimage to Canterbury in Geoffrey Chaucer's the “Canterbury Tales“. And what I did the first half hour was read from and comment on the- the

00:34:28.080 - 00:34:45.570

pilgrims. I only read maybe around five or six of the descriptions of them. But I talked about how their stories really reflected their personalities, and also their feuds or their angers or their joys at the people who are on

00:34:45.840 - 00:35:09.900

the pilgrimages with them. So what happens after all of the pilgrims are introduced, is that very properly, the Host tells the Knight who is the highest ranking social person, that is as far as the class system is concerned, asks him to tell a

00:35:09.900 - 00:35:32.400

tale. And the Knight tells a very, very long tale about chivalry, about the love of two friends for the same woman, and how they finally have to fight a joust which will be determined, so it was believed back then, by God who would be the winner and

00:35:32.400 - 00:35:56.250

who deserved the fair damsel. It is a tale of chivalry, it is a tale of knights, and the minute he finishes this long tale, the Miller who I described before and who was quite drunk, well, maybe what I should do is- is read that.

00:35:59.930 - 00:36:12.920

When the Knight had finished his tale, everyone in the company, young and old, and particularly the gentle folk, agreed it was a noble story well worth remembering. Laughing, the Host -- remember he is the judge, and arbiter of these stories --

00:36:12.920 - 00:36:26.450

swore "Believe me, we're on the right track. The bag's unbuckled. Now let's see who'll tell another story for indeed, the game's begun well. Sir Monk, if you can, tell us something to match the Knight's story."

00:36:26.450 - 00:36:44.990

Now, this is a very appropriate social mood- the- move, the next person in line socially is the head of the monastery who is the Monk. All right. So, he said to the Monk: Sir Monk if you can, tell us something to match the Knight's

00:36:45.020 - 00:37:01.010

story. The Miller pallid with drink, could hardly sit upon his horse. He hadn't got the manners to doff his hat or hood, or to wait for anybody, but began shouting and swearing in a booming voice like a stage villain‘s, "Christ's arms and

00:37:01.010 - 00:37:15.290

blood and bones, I know a splendid [unidentified] to cap the Knight's tale." Seeing he was drunk, the Host cried, "Hold hard Robin, old man. We need a better man to tell the next one. Pipe down and let's be sensible." "By God. I won't,"

00:37:15.290 - 00:37:33.590

said he, "I need to have my say or quit." "Well say on and be damned, then," replied the Host. "You're a fool and your wits are fuddled." "Hmm. Well, now listen, all of you. But first, let me admit, I'm drunk. I can tell by the sound of my voice.

00:37:33.770 - 00:37:49.970

So if I trip over a word or two, please blame it on the Southwerk ale. I want to tell you a story of a carpenter and his wife, and how he was made a fool of by a scholar. Well, remember what we read about the Reeve. The Reeve had

00:37:49.970 - 00:38:05.450

started off, before he became the head administrator of an estate, he had started off as a carpenter. And here's the Miller going to tell a tale about a carpenter who is- and his wife, who were fooled by a scholar.

00:38:05.780 - 00:38:22.100

So the Reeve interrupted, "Hold your noise, leave off your bumpkin, drunken bawdiness. It's sinful and also, it's remarkably foolish to slander a man and bring women into disrepute. You can talk about plenty of other things." The drunken Miller

00:38:22.130 - 00:38:38.090

retorted, "Dear old Oswald, when a man has no wife he's no cuckold. Now that I'm called- not that I'm calling you one. There are heaps of virtuous wives, a 1000 for every one that's bad, as you must know perfectly well yourself, unless

00:38:38.090 - 00:38:55.370

you're cracked. Now, why get so worked up about my tale. Excuse me, I've a wife as well as you, yet not from my whole team of plow oxen, would I take it upon myself to think I was a cuckold, unless I had to. And I'm pretty sure I'm not, a man shouldn't

00:38:55.370 - 00:39:12.840

poke too closely into God's secrets, or his wives, so long as he finds God's plenty in her, he has no call to be inquisitive about the leavings." And the the Miller goes on to tell his tale and it is one of

00:39:12.840 - 00:39:33.690

the most salacious tales in the “Canterbury Tales“, and it is about a scholar who seduces the wife of a carpenter in a rather ingenious way, and then has his come-up in some- in the end. But the carpenter is the one who's made the fool of. The minute it-

00:39:33.990 - 00:39:54.330

it ends, the Reeve is- is furious and insists on telling a story of his own, though now everything is out of social order. And it is a story which is about a Miller, and which he is really getting back at the Miller for telling his story

00:39:54.450 - 00:40:09.570

about a carpenter which he's taking very personally, probably for very good reason. So you've got this very wonderful modern interplay of character and character traits going on even in the stories as they're being told. And most of the stories

00:40:09.570 - 00:40:33.660

are fascinating. I'm going to read the Reeve‘s tale in a second, so under- understand that. Let's go on to what happens after the end of this story. So anyway, the Miller tells his story and:

00:40:33.520 - 00:40:50.200

When people stopped laughing at this absurd affair of Absolon and sly Nicholas, they made various comments, but chuckled with amusement for the most part. So far, I could see nobody took offence at the story, except Osewold the Reeve, it

00:40:50.200 - 00:41:04.930

left a spark of resentment in his heart, for he was a carpenter by trade. He began to carpet it a bit, grumbling, "Happened I could pay you bac properly, with a tale of swaggering Miller who got hi eye wiped if I wanted to tal

00:41:04.930 - 00:41:23.170

smut, but I'm old, too old fo that game. Grass time's over, i 's winter fodder for me now. T is white pole writes me down an ld man and my heart's jus as mildewed as my hair. I migh as well be a split [unidentif ed] or a meddler, and that's a f

00:41:23.170 - 00:41:40.150

uit that gets moldier and moldi r until it's rotten and laid p in muck or straw. Us old men re like that, mores the pity, ever ripe than rotten. So long a the world pipes, we‘ll keep o dancing for there's always this snag. We'd like a white

00:41:40.150 - 00:42:00.040

and and a green tail like a leak Even though our strength be gon , we love folly, just the same. nd when we can't do it, we'll alk about it, there's a spark et in our racked up ashes- rak d up ashes. I'll show you fo r live coals, greed, lying, an

00:42:00.040 - 00:42:18.490

er and boasting for embers t at belong to old age. We an scarcely move our old lim s. Desire never fails, and it's he truth on it. As for me, ther 's life in the old dog yet, tho gh it's many a year since my tap of life began to run. But sure

00:42:18.550 - 00:42:36.640

y, when I was born, death turned on the tap of life and let it fl w, and it's run ever since, t ll the casks almost empty. Now my life streams no more than a ew drops on the barrel edge. My poor old tongue may well r ng and chime of the follies of l

00:42:36.640 - 00:43:11.090

ng ago. There's nothing left ut dotage for the old." a cobbler. Tell your tale Reeve and don't waste time. See, there's Deptford and it's half past seven already; and Greenwich full of blackards over there. It's high time, you began

00:43:11.240 - 00:43:30.200

your tale." "Well, gentlemen," said Osewold the Reeve, "I hope you'll none of you take offense if I answer by pulling his leg a bit, tit for tat, it's only fair. This drunken Miller has just told us how a carpenter has made a fool of, perhaps to make

00:43:30.200 - 00:43:47.120

fun of me because I'm one myself. And if you don't mind, I mean to pay him back. I'll talk in his own bumpkin language. I wish to God he break his neck, he can see a moat in my eye, not a beam in his own."

00:43:47.990 - 00:44:07.010

Well, before we start, the interest here, beyond the tales themselves, is that having started in social order, with a tale of the Knight, the Miller breaks up the order, and tells, even in style, a much different story than the Knight. It is a

00:44:07.010 - 00:44:23.120

very bawdy story about peasants, and how peasants cheat each other. And what we are- what we're seeing, even that the Miller would have the nerve to do that, is the starting to break up of the old medieval order, because by 1387 we're in

00:44:23.120 - 00:44:39.560

the later Middle Ages. And now the Reeve, also out of order, remember, we should have the Monk after him, we should have the Prioress telling the tales, things have started to break down in the social order of this pilgrimage, which is really a

00:44:39.560 - 00:44:58.890

microcosm of the Middle Ages. Anyway, here is the Reeve‘s tale. So you get a sense of some of these. At Trumpington, not far from Cambridge, runs a stream with a bridge over it and on this stream, there stands a mill

00:44:58.890 - 00:45:16.080

where, and it's the truth I'm telling you, a miller dwelt many a year, he was proud and gay as any peacock. He could play the bagpipes, fish, mend nets, turn wooden cups on a lathe, wrestle, and shoot. A long cutlass and a keen bladed sword always hung

00:45:16.080 - 00:45:32.490

from his belt, while in his pouch he carried a natty little dirk. It was as much as a man's life was worth to go near him, and he kept a Sheffield knife in his stocking. Bald as a monkey with a round pug-nosed face, he was a thoroughgoing market

00:45:32.490 - 00:45:49.650

bully. Nobody dared lay a finger on him. He swore he'd make them pay for it pretty soon if they did. In fact, he was a crook, and a sly one at that, a habitual pilfer of corn and meal. His nickname was Swagger Symkyn. He had a wife who came

00:45:49.650 - 00:46:07.350

from a noble family, her father was the town priest. [And that is she was illegitimate.] He'd had to give a large dowry of brassware along with her to get Symkyn to make the alliance that is apriested. She had been brought up in a nunnery, for

00:46:07.350 - 00:46:21.420

Symkyn to keep his Yeoman status said he would not take a wife if she wasn't well brought up and a virgin, and she was proud and pert as a magpie. The two of them were something to see on Sundays when he strutted in front of her with his hood

00:46:21.420 - 00:46:35.970

wrapped about his head, and she followed in a red get-up matching Symkyn's stockings. No one dared call her anything but madame, or had the nerve to make a pass at her in the street, unless he wanted Symkyn to slaughter him with cutlass,

00:46:35.970 - 00:46:56.490

knife or dagger. Jealous people are always dangerous customers, or at any rate, that's what they want their wives to think. As her reputation was a bit smirched, she kept people at a distance. Ditch water does as much. With her- I'm sorry- with

00:46:56.490 - 00:47:13.680

her so supercilious distain, she felt it was considerations owed her on account of her family and because of her good upbringing at the nunnery. Between them they produced a daughter 20 years old, but no others except the six month old child, the

00:47:13.680 - 00:47:31.380

bouncing boy still in the cradle. The girl was well grown and plump with a snub nose, gray eyes, broad buttocks, high round breasts, and I must admit really pretty hair. And because she was pretty that town priest intended to make her the heiress of his

00:47:31.380 - 00:47:48.330

house and land, and was being difficult about her marrying because he wanted her to marry well into some worthy family of ancient lineage. The goods of Holy Church ought to be spent on blood descended from Holy Church, so he was going to honor

00:47:48.330 - 00:48:06.600

his holy blood, even if he had to devour Holy Church in the process. Be sure this miller levied a huge toll on the wheat and malt of the country around that came to his mill to ground, and in particular, there was a great college at Cambridge

00:48:06.600 - 00:48:25.000

called Soler Hall, whose wheat and malt was ground by him. Now, one day it happened that it's manciple fell ill and some- with some malady, and it was thought that he was sure to die. As a consequence, the miller began to steal 100 times more

00:48:25.000 - 00:48:40.060

meal and corn than before. Up until then he had been content with a polite pilfering, but now he was a bare-faced robber. The warden was annoyed about it, and made a great to do, but the miller didn't give a straw, he blustered and denied it point

00:48:40.060 - 00:48:57.670

blank. At the college I speak of there were two young students, head strong fellows, game for anything, just for the fun of it they pestered the warden to give them a short leave to go- to go to the mill and see their corn ground. They were ready to wager

00:48:57.670 - 00:49:16.630

their necks, the miller wouldn't be able to rob them by force or fraud of so much as half a peck of corn. And in the end, the warden of the college gave them leave. One of these students was called John and the other Aleyn. Both were born in the same town,

00:49:16.930 - 00:49:32.170

a place called Strother, somewhere in the Far North. Aleyn collected all his gear and slung a sack of corn over the horse, then Aleyn and John set out each with a good sword and buckler at his side. They didn't need a guide, John knew the way

00:49:32.320 - 00:49:48.250

and when they reached the mill, he threw down the sack. Aleyn spoke first, "How do, well Symond, how's the wife and lass?" "Welcome, Aleyn," said Symkyn the miller, "and on my life here is John as well. How's things? What brings you here?"

00:49:48.850 - 00:50:05.350

"Well, Lord almighty Symond, need knows no law," said John. "It behooves him that he has no help to help his self, or you're daft, as the learned say. Our manciple‘s near dying with toothache in his head. And so I've come with Aleyn to grind

00:50:05.350 - 00:50:22.690

our corn and bring it home. You'll hurry it up for us, oh, won't you, I hope." "I'll do that, trust me," said Symkyn. "But what will you do while I'm at the job at hand?" "I'll stand right under the hopper, by God" said Aleyn. And we- and see

00:50:22.750 - 00:50:44.170

how the corn goes in. I've never seen your hopper swinging about in my born days." "Do that" John answered Aleyn, "and then you can bet I'll be underneath to watch how the meal falls down into the trough. I'll play that game all right, for sure me and

00:50:44.170 - 00:51:01.030

you is the same sort, John. I'm as bad a miller as you." The miller grinned at their for chew- fatuity and thought, "This is all just a ruse, you think nobody can diddle them. But as I'm a miller, I'll hoodwink them yet," he said to himself, "for

00:51:01.060 - 00:51:16.510

all their clever philosophy of watching me grind their corn and malt. The more smart tricks they try, the more I'll steal from them in the end. I'll give them brand for flour still. As the mare said to the wolf one day, 'The most learned aren't always

00:51:16.510 - 00:51:34.540

the wisest.' I don't give a bean for all their book learning." When he saw his chance, he stole quietly out of the door and looked around until he found the students horse standing tethered under an arbor behind the mill. He went boldly up to the horse

00:51:34.540 - 00:51:49.660

and stripped of his bridle on the spot. Once loose, the horse turned towards the fin, where wild mares were running free. With a whinny it raced off through thick and through thin. The miller returned and said not a word, but went on with his job

00:51:49.660 - 00:52:05.020

and joked with the two students until their corn was well and truly ground. But when the meal was sacked and tied, John went out and he found their horses missing. "Help! Help!" he cried, "our horse is gone. God's bones, Aleyn, stir thy stumps, come out

00:52:05.020 - 00:52:23.530

man at once, we've lost one of the warden‘s palfrey." Aleyn forgot meal and corn and all, and the need for keeping an eye on things went clean out of his head, his mind. "What? Where's he gone?" he cried. The miller's wife came running in, "Alas your

00:52:23.530 - 00:52:40.000

horse is off to the wild mares in the fen as fast as he could gallop, no thanks to the hand that tied him up, you ought to have knotted the rein better, young man." Cried John, "Aleyn, for heaven's sake, take thy sword off, I'll do the same. God

00:52:40.000 - 00:52:55.400

knows I'm wight as a roe. Oh, Lord almighty, he'll not escape the both of us. Why didn't you put the neg in your barn, devil take it you daft Aleyn, by God." So, one of the students is blaming the other for not tying

00:52:55.400 - 00:53:09.910

the horse up, but we know what the truth is. And those two silly students ran off as hard as they could towards the fen. When the miller saw that they'd gone, he took half a bushel of their flour and told his wife to knead it into a cake. "I'll bet

00:53:09.910 - 00:53:25.300

those scholars beard for all his book learning. Let them run along, just watch them go. Well let the children play. They aren't going to catch him that easily or I'll eat my hat." [He‘s talking about the horse.] The poor students ran up and

00:53:25.300 - 00:53:39.490

down the fen crying “Watch out. Whoa, whoa, hurry up there. Watch out behind, you go whistle. I'll head him off.“ In short, no matter how hard they tried, the horse ran so fast they failed to catch it until nightfall, but they finally

00:53:39.490 - 00:53:59.470

caught it in a ditch. Poor John and Aleyn came back wet and weary as cattle in the rain. Said John, "I wish I'd never been born, I've been fooled, made a laughingstock, our corn stolen, I know, and they'll all call us fools, the warden and

00:53:59.470 - 00:54:14.800

our mates and the miller worst of all." Thus grumbled John, as he made his way to the mill leading his Bayard by the rein. He found the miller sitting by the fire for it was night and they could go no further. So they begged him for God's sakes

00:54:14.800 - 00:54:30.100

to give them lodging and shelter for their money. Said the miller, "If there is any, you shall have your share of it, such as it is, my house is pretty cramped. But you've been educated, you know how to argy-bargy and make out at a 20

00:54:30.100 - 00:54:47.620

foot space is a mile across. Now let's see if this place will do for you, you can always make it bigger by talking, as is the way of you learnered folk." "Now Symond," said John, "there you have us, you'll have your joke by St. Cuthbert, but as the

00:54:47.620 - 00:55:07.660

saying is, a man shall take any of two things, that is what he finds, or what he brings. Good host, let me beg you to get us some food and drink and make us welcome, we'll pay you on the nail. You can't catch a hawk with an empty hand. Look, here's

00:55:07.660 - 00:55:23.140

our brass ready to spend," and he showed them his coins. The miller roasted them a goose and sent his daughter to town for bread and ale, he tethered their horse so that it wouldn't run loose again and made up a fine bedspread with sheets and

00:55:23.140 - 00:55:37.270

blankets for them in his room, about a dozen feet from his own bed. Nearby in the very same room, his daughter had a bed all to herself. This was the best they could do for the simple reason, there was nowhere else to place- in the place to sleep.

00:55:37.840 - 00:55:52.060

They sipped, talked and made merry, and drank any amount of strong ale, then at about midnight, went to bed. The miller got himself properly plastered, he wasn't flushed, but quite pallid with drink. He had coughed and talked through

00:55:52.060 - 00:56:07.450

his nose, as if he'd asthma or cold in the head. Off to bed he went, his wife with him, and she was as merry as a [any jay] she'd wetted her whistle well and truly. The cradle was set at the foot of the bed, that she might rock it and give the child

00:56:07.450 - 00:56:22.450

to suck, and when they drained the jug, the daughter went straight to bed, followed by Aleyn and John. There wasn't a drop left and they'd no need of sleeping draught. The miller had certainly had a skinful for he snored like a horse in his

00:56:22.450 - 00:56:40.900

sleep, honking at both ends, and his wife joined in the chorus with a will. People could hear them wheezing away a quarter of a mile off, and the girl snored with them for company sake. After listening to this melody, Aleyn poked John and said, "Are

00:56:40.900 - 00:56:56.230

you asleep? Did you ever hear such a warbling before? Talk about evening prayers, the itch fall on them, it's the weirdest thing you've ever heard. They're going to come to the worst of bad ends, there'll be no rest for me this long night with all

00:56:56.230 - 00:57:13.360

that noise. But never mind, it'll all be for the best, for John, "said he, "you can take it from me that I will swink with your girl- with yon girl if I can. The law allows some compensation John, there's a law says if a man's harmed in one

00:57:13.360 - 00:57:31.750

way, he's to be relieved in another. There's no denying our corn was stolen, we've had bad luck all day, and since I'll get no amends against my loss, I'll take compensation with the girl. Lord almighty that's how it'll be." "Watch your step Aleyn!"

00:57:31.750 - 00:57:50.620

wavered- answered John. "Yon miller's a dangerous customer and if he wakes up suddenly he might do both of us mischief." "I count him less than a fly" answered Aleyn, and got up and crept over to the girl. She was fast asleep on her back. By the

00:57:50.620 - 00:58:07.450

time she saw him, he was too close, it was too late to cry out. In short, they were soon at one. Now I'll leave Aleyn to his fun and speak of John. John lay quietly where he was for a few minutes, then began lamenting to himself "This isn't much of a

00:58:07.450 - 00:58:23.890

joke. I can only say I've been made a monkey, while my mates had something for his pains. He's got the millers daughter in his arms. He took a chance and got his oats while I'm lying in bed like a sack of rubbish. And when this jape is told one day,

00:58:24.760 - 00:58:41.230

I'll look at chattel head, daft as a brush. I'll get up and chance it, muck or nettles now, as the saying is." So up he got and went softly over to the cradle, picked it up and quietly carried it to the foot of his own bed. Soon afterwards, the

00:58:41.230 - 00:58:55.000

millers wife stopped snoring and woke up. She went out to take a leak - pardon the expression people - came back and missed the cradle. Here and there she groped in the darkness, but couldn't find it all. "Oh dear," said she, "I nearly went wrong

00:58:55.180 - 00:59:11.590

and almost got into the student's bed. Bless us. I have found myself in bed- I would have found myself in bad trouble." And she moved on until she found the cradle near of course, John- John's bed. She kept groping for [unidentified]-

00:59:12.100 - 00:59:25.450

not knowing where she was in the dark, she fairly crawled in beside the student. She lay still and would have fallen asleep. But in a little while John came to life and threw himself upon this good woman, it was the best bounce she'd had in

00:59:25.450 - 00:59:41.410

years. He thrust away like a madman hard and deep, and so the two students had the time of their lives till it was nearly dawn. In the morning Aleyn began to tire of toiling all night long and whispered “Goodbye, sweet Malyne, the day is here. I

00:59:41.410 - 00:59:57.400

can't stay no longer. But as I live and breathe, I'll always be your own true lad wherever I am.“ "Then go sweetheart, and goodbye," said she, "but I'll tell you one thing before you go. When you're on your way home, past the mill just behind

00:59:57.400 - 01:00:10.780

the entrance of the door, you'll find a half bushel cake made of your own flour, which I helped my father steel. God save and keep you, sweetheart," and saying this, she nearly began to weep at his leaving.

01:00:11.980 - 01:00:27.100

And that is some- some of the ways that the students get their revenge. The story is not quite over yet. But our time is and so this is Morton Marcus saying tonight we've been talking about the “Canterbury Tales,“ because this is the 600th and 21st year

01:00:27.250 - 01:00:53.470

after that fictitious pilgrimage began by its great author, Geoffrey Chaucer. I'll see in three weeks This is The Poetry Show. Stay tuned for "From the Bookshelf." Gary Shapiro: Broadcasting in HD Radio 88.9 fm this is Central

01:00:53.470 - 01:01:11.170

Coast Public Radio KUSP Santa Cruz, and KBDH, San Ardo, streaming live and podcasting at Kusp.org. Hey, everybody, I'm Gary Shapiro and it's time for "From The Bookshelf."Simon Gary David Goldberg joins us tonight. He was the television writer and

01:01:11.170 - 01:01:22.330

producer who created "Family Ties" and "Spin City" and has now written a memoir called “Sit Loose Sit.“ Gary David Goldberg. Welcome to From the bookshelf. Gary David Goldberg: Thank you, Gary. Great to be with you. I

01:01:22.660 - 01:01:33.640

Gary Shapiro: I have to tell you, when I was a kid, I had a pal in Rosewood Elementary School who was really funny. He cracked me up every day. And his name was Matt and his dad was a comedy writer who became an important mentor to you, Nate

01:01:33.640 - 01:01:45.610

Monister. Gary David Goldberg: Oh, wow. Yeah, Nate Monister was the guy who turned- to change my life. Nate Monister was the guy who turned my life around, he was the first human being to say,

01:01:45.610 - 01:02:01.720

you know, maybe you could make a living as a writer so and Matt Monister very funny guy. In in LA, we had a book party there at Duttons books and I invited Matt and he came and I invited his mom, Gladys, and she came as well. So it was really a treat

01:02:01.720 - 01:02:06.460

for me. Gary Shapiro: I haven't seen Matt since the seventh grade. But he was a funny, funny kid. Gary David Goldberg: He looks the same.

01:02:08.280 - 01:02:18.090

Gary Shapiro: And now, and your daughter Shana, she wrote and produced many episodes of the very funny show "Friends." Gary David Goldberg: Yeah, Shauna ended up being the create- as the executive producer and head writer of

01:02:18.450 - 01:02:29.590

"Friends" along with her husband, Scott Silveira, who was the other head writer and executive producer. Gary Shapiro: So do you think comedy is hereditary? Gary David Goldberg: It seems to be in this limited sample that

01:02:29.590 - 01:02:40.820

you've discussed. The Monister Goldberg, me and family? Yeah. Gary Shapiro: What about your dad? Was he a funny guy? Gary David Goldberg: No, my dad was- he was you know,- he was just working. He was working in the post office. He worked two

01:02:40.820 - 01:02:56.570

jobs, sometimes three jobs. No, I wouldn't say he was a funny guy. He was a sweet and wonderful guy. My mother was caustically funny, you know, very, very smart woman. But, and I was not funny as a kid. I don't think anyone that knew me

01:02:56.570 - 01:03:09.140

went the way you knew Matt would say, well, Gary was really funny. So it was an odd life choice as it turned out. Gary Shapiro: Well, when you were a kid, I know you were obsessed with baseball. But were there comedians that you loved?

01:03:09.140 - 01:03:24.140

And did you like comedy? Gary David Goldberg: I didn't write comedy. I- yes, there were, you know, we had one Phil Silvers, the Colgate Comedy Hour and Sid Caesar show shows, Life of Riley with William Bendix.

01:03:24.140 - 01:03:39.650

But it was so far from for me being able to conceive of a thought that would connect me to that world, you know, it was so far outside of anything that was in our ability to even dream about, you know, it just seemed like that happened somewhere on

01:03:39.650 - 01:03:53.480

Mars, you know, and you couldn't ever find a way into that world. Gary Shapiro: Well, there's a certain rhythm that you- you mentioned music a few times in your book and in you do a great impression of Miles Davis, if it's possible to do an

01:03:53.480 - 01:04:06.150

impression in the book, you can do that. Gary David Goldberg: One, one not nice guy. Relatively genius, but not a very nice man, at least to waiters at the village ate in the 60s.

01:04:06.000 - 01:04:19.050

Gary Shapiro: And I want to talk about that a little bit. But let me ask you about comedy. You there's this there's a certain rhythm. And I think you're into music. So I don't know if those things are connected. But that rhythm is present in family

01:04:19.050 - 01:04:32.280

tiesa and that that rhythm is present in Spin City and, and- and in your book. Gary David Goldberg: Oh, it's interesting. Yeah, comedy is rhythm and a lot of comedy writers not not me are also very

01:04:32.280 - 01:04:46.710

good musicians. on our show, you know, Michael Whitehorn and Mark Lawrence, you know, really good musicians. Mike fox is a terrific musician. So that's not uncommon. There is there is a rhythm to it. There's a way to make it funny. There's a way to

01:04:46.710 - 01:05:02.040

make it not funny. Same words, delivered by different people. You- You laugh or you don't laugh when you get to the really, those old time comics guys like Rodney Dangerfield you know that you're laughing unsound, you don't even know

01:05:02.040 - 01:05:14.550

what you're laughing at. They can make you laugh at will. And Mike Fox when he was on a roll jack Benny, they tell you, you're, it's you can laugh now. Now you laugh and you can't help yourself.

01:05:14.970 - 01:05:28.260

Gary Shapiro: Well, having mastered that rhythm we've ever attempted to do stand up, or was your under the tree acting? Gary David Goldberg: Having been one of the worst actors ever? No, that's more attention than I then I, like, you know, and I'm

01:05:28.260 - 01:05:43.170

not sure that I'm a great stand up. Although going around the country, reading the book, reading portions of the book, I can make the audience laugh and know when they're going to laugh, you know, but I don't it what's been not difficult and

01:05:43.170 - 01:05:57.900

exciting at the same time, for me has been going around with the book, getting all this emotion and all this response coming directly at me, where normally I have actors between myself and the audience. And and now I know why because I don't

01:05:57.930 - 01:06:08.940

want I actually don't want that much attention and focus. You know, it's great to have it deflected through some, you know, brilliant people like Michael Fox, especially. Gary Shapiro: Is that why you hid behind a giant beard for so

01:06:08.940 - 01:06:19.170

many years? Gary David Goldberg: Perhaps, perhaps? And also, you know, I'd put on a lot of weight at that time. And there, there may have been some elements of that, you know, it's hard to say. Yeah,

01:06:19.200 - 01:06:30.720

maybe so. And even that middle name that I use, which is just this complete affectation, you know, it's just, I don't know what that was about. And then I got stuck with it. You know Gary Shapiro: People don't call you Gary David?

01:06:31.410 - 01:06:42.180

Gary David Goldberg: No, in fact, my my assistant would always know somebody would call. And Sam, very good friend of Gary David, she would know that I never met him, you know, because actually, no, you know, it was just like, I had screwed

01:06:42.180 - 01:06:55.230

up for all those years. In my 20s. I think when i when i resurfaced, I wanted people to know from the old neighborhood that that was me, you know, but no, that's a complete affectation that I'm stuck with now. And nothing I can do.

01:06:55.270 - 01:07:04.780

Gary Shapiro: It sounds like the name that your mother would yell at you when you- Gary David Goldberg: No, no one ever used it. My mother, you know, never used it. It was just completely forgotten I had a

01:07:04.780 - 01:07:18.490

middle name, you know. Gary Shapiro: So, let's talk a little bit about how you got into television. You, you met my pal, Matt's dad named Monister and he had written a bunch of television shows and movies,

01:07:18.490 - 01:07:29.410

including that "Touch of Mink" with Clark- I mean, put Gary David Goldberg: Cary Grant, right. Yeah. Gary Shapiro: Cary Grant. Right. And, and so you met him and he encouraged you to write and what happened?

01:07:30.100 - 01:07:33.250

Gary David Goldberg: And then, you know, Nate was just one of those angel [cut off]