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Unknown: Tonight an interview with Norman o brown on Rs. poetica. Good evening. I'm john Dotson hope you can stay with us. normandeau Brown is emeritus professor of humanities at the University of California Santa Cruz. In an article in the New

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Republic in June 1991 Alan wolf refers to Norman Oh brown as the professor of desire, and states normandeau Brown writing in America in the 1950s anticipated nearly all the themes that now dominate literary and cultural studies in the United States.

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Rarely has a thinker been so right in for seeing so much that is so wrong. Brown was the poet and the mystic. For the reality of politics, we must turn to the poets not to the politician, he wrote in love his body in 1966. Reading Brown was a little like

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taking drugs only it was a little more likely to lead to tenure. So it says Alan Wolf, in life against death, the book brown published in 1959, he wrote, humankind today is still making history without having any conscious idea of what it

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really wants, or under what conditions it would stop being unhappy. In fact, what it is doing seems to be making itself more unhappy and calling that unhappiness progress. History is shaped beyond our conscious wills not by the cutting of

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reason, but by the cutting of desire. In Apocalypse, the place of mystery in the life of the mind is famous Phi Beta Kappa speech at Columbia in May 1960. expressing something of his revolutionary intellectual agenda, the 60s, brown stated,

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the power which makes all things new is magic. What our time needs is mystery. What our time needs is magic. Who would not say that only a miracle can save us. There is a Dionysian Christianity and apocalyptic Christianity of Christianity of

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miracles and revelations. And there have always been some Christians, for whom the age of miracle and revelation is not over. Christians who claim the spirit, enthusiasm it's well last December with the special support of my associate Bob du

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Ford, I interviewed Norman o brown at his home in Santa Cruz, the major theme being to define the metaphor of Dionysian sacrifice for a new decade. Dionysus is the God of wine and drama and access for brown the God of unity and transformation

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who abolishes boundaries in the way Christ destroys walls that separate the Christian aspect of Browns thought as expressed in the need, and the call for sacrifice. In the interview that's coming up, brown describes his journey to reunite

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Hellenistic or Greek intuition and Dionysian power with Hebraic, Christian Eucharist and sacrament. We also discuss his efforts to bring the prophetic tradition in Islam into a new unity of life. He raises questions of the political

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economy that might reflect such a new worldview in the 21st century calling on William Blake and James Joyce and Finnegans Wake. Brown refers to the return in the 90s of something of the magic of the 60s a time in his view when the heavens seem to

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open with wildly intuitive clairvoyant perceptions, ecstatic outpourings of prophetic spirit in that generation in Dionysus in 1990, a chapter in his latest book, apocalypse and or metamorphosis. Brown writes, Dionysian

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consciousness is to discard the pseudo scientific posture of clinical detachment or political rationality and recognize madness as the universal human condition. We are all in one and the same boat or body. Political Economy needs a theory of

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sacrifice and the sacrifice necessarily involves the sacred, there is no telling how it will all turn out in the end. At the present moment in this phase of exploration, the picture is confused by the novelty of the situation. The predominance of

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vicarious entertainment in the life of the masses, spectral enjoyment, everything on TV, the Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous offering vicarious participation in spectacles of waste, democracy restricted to mass voting for media stars. The

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vision of exuberance requires identification with the exuberant life of the whole Night on rs poetica. Open your ears, and you shall hear the

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prophetic utterances of normandeau Brown, recorded last December in the study of his home in Santa Cruz. To start at the end, then, which is the beginning of things with from

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the book apocalypse and or metamorphosis, and the essay, Dionysus in 1990. Now, when you chose that rather prosaic title for the essay, did you have a sense of how the word the number is 1990 sort of

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ringing in our ears? Or was it simply a statement of fact, to hear you speak, of course, I think of the I don't know, the year of the beast in the apocalypse. But actually, I think what I was thinking of was Wasn't there a stage production

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in New York? Dionysus in 1969? I don't remember I think there was. And, and I was thinking of that title, but also a hidden, hidden

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topic of preoccupation of mine. And that is in the last year, and that is the the return of the 60s to which that book belonged and which my own work belonged. The now I don't have to, I don't know whether your audience will remember, but

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certainly you remember that fact. The generation of the 60s, especially the college generation of the 60s were a very Dionysian group. They were, they thought they were I don't know, I guess they could never spell the word diagnosis. They

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were mostly illiterate and didn't spell or and know exactly what they were doing. But my psychedelic drugs with weathermen with violence with communists and communal experiments and so forth. They were a pretty wild bunch.

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Excess excess. Now, I,

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I was, I guess there is one author on the landscape of the last year, who symbolizes as a writer, the the return of those of that generation in some sense, and that is the woman Camille Polya, who's, who's attracted sexual persona. Yes,

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she says in the book, but you will see like down there in the front of man, good show, I found of considerable interest. She says that, that she belongs to that generation. First of all, she says that, and she's been wandering in the wilderness in

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between. and now in some strange sense, the time wheel comes round, it says her honor again, so that she too was organizing her public appearances as if diagnosis is returning to his native America. She's organizing herself that way. And she says

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that, that her generation, which is the the generations of 60s was perhaps the first generation since classical antiquity to become to really understand what Dionysus meant. So that that

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the way I first associate to your question was is to to connect My, my title of Dionysus in 91, with Dionysus in 1969, which I think was an actual stage production on the New York stage, but tend to think more generally of the return of some

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of the tumult and turbulence of the 60s. In the 90s. I was thinking of that title by a bright young man in Washington DC called Fukuyama who bought it a year or two a year ago, he was saying the title of the essay was the end of history. And, and

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he was talking about the the collapse of socialism because at the end of the Cold War, and and he was seeing in this event, the the the triumph of Western values and Western politics and Western economics, Western democratic values and Western

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capitalistic values. And he was recalling actually the philosopher Hegel, who thought he wasn't he too thought he was living at the end of history. He couldn't see any further intellectual progress possible beyond himself. And Fukuyama,

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who works, I believe, for the State Department or one of the brains trusts in Washington could not see and publish this article. Anything beyond the triumph of the West, there was no public historical agenda that he could think of. They the the

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riddle of history that to say what was it all about the mankind finding itself to this goal? I, I was disagreeing I was rejecting that. And I guess it does connect with that other word in the title of my last book that you mentioned,

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Apocalypse, my imagination. My imagination is always gripped by the surprises and sudden reversals which take place. And I see, I see. And indeed, I tried to say some of the things

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in that last essay of that book that you refer to diagnosis in 91. I tried to say as well as see some of the reasons for why we are just beginning we are we have reached a point we mankind

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have reached humankind have reached a point where they can for the first time. Look at at very problematical. A very problematical future. In that essay, I think the first formulation is what does mankind have what the human beings

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really want? What do human beings really want now that in a certain sense, they the technical power is within their grasp to do almost anything they want? Well, what do they really want? And this is one way of elaborating, that team have

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access the the super abundance of, of material goods, the super the abundance, at least in the west of consumer goods, what does mankind really want? By tried in that last essay to to make that question, What does human beings really want to make

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it a way of bringing psychoanalysis to bear on the year 1991? I don't think still that at least for me, this has been a century of psychoanalysis and psychoanalysis is open, not closed, open closets and problems that hadn't been known

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before. And I think that the question of the nature of human desire, what do they really want? is a question which has been transformed and transfigured by the whole, the whole thrust of psychoanalysis in the 20th century.

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If you say desire is transformed and transfigured, and you're looking at the whole human species in terms of a time of decision, I suppose

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how the question is, how shall we burn? And when I read what you have written about Dionysus in 1990 I get new information, new signals, new prophecy as it were from your work? Do you feel that you have a prophetic sense of what is happening? We thought

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you did 22 years ago, I feel it now when I read your work now. What do you feel history and prophecy. I think that anyone who publishes a book as a title,

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apocalypse and or metamorphosis can simply repudiate the desire of the ambition or something to be prophetic i i i don't regard myself as I don't regard myself as being exceptional and people normally use the word profit as if they you the human race was

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divided into two speeches a very small minority who stood up and claimed to be profit or would like to be and and a mass of sheep who aren't and who make no such claim?

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Well, I guess I guess the best way to answer that would be to go to the shelf there and bring down Blake from from the runner the authors who

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have been with me the whole time all these years from life against death that you mentioned through loss buddy in between and through apocalypse and or metamorphosis. In fact, I've I've noticed that a red dot you can see that the this last book,

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rather, miscellaneous collection of essays is to some extent unified by a recurrent, not only a recurrent references to Blake, but actually two or three citations of the same passage in Blake for which which is, I have come to regard I have been

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forced to regard as essentially, they just come back and again and again. But the two epics I think it's the two epics that move Blake road, Milton and Jerusalem. I think it's the first one Newton, where he, they inscription, the super

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inscription as a quotation from the book of Numbers in the Bible. And he says, Would to God that all the Lord's people were prophets. That that's

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now if you look back on 68 One of the things that was fascinating and and move me to the depths of my being and in such context, as I had with younger people, was the extent to which there was I thought, a

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an outpouring of prophetic spirit. Mass, it was it was a mass prophecy, or if it was a prophetic movement. I think that's the flower power generation and all those weird phenomenon I think it can be if you read the, the down through

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the ages, the descriptions of ecstatic and wild outpourings of prophecy, it presents Both them. I think that, that these that you can say that there was an outpouring of prophetic spirit in that generation. I remember it, I remember it, I still have,

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I still have up in my office. The some of the work that students of that generation did. I came to Santa Cruz in 1968. And, and the most exciting Dionysian period was the precisely those first years, and I have never had this, I have

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never had the strength or the desire to throw away some of the work that students undergraduate students did for me in those days, in fact, I puzzle over the fact that I'm one of those students who did an absolutely mind blowing, as you might say,

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work for me. He has since become a local writer in one of the local journal journals. And it's it looks, it seems to me as if all the Dionysian fire and lighters disappeared from his light, as

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if there had been that moment, like 68 to 75, a moment from the heavens were opened. And there was a kind of mass outpouring of some of wildly intuitive clairvoyant perceptions, not all of them inspired by drugs either. But some of it was, and

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then, and then the the things the shades of the prison houses, the poet says, closed in on on that generation, and, and we had a more conservative period. I don't know. I don't know how, and in what manner nine to nine days will return to any kind of

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phenomenology that we knew from the 60s? Well, would it be fair to use your expression Theophany to apply somewhat to that period, a sense of Theophany or at least an intimation of the offering at that time? You use that in the

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new Yes, but they often as an appearance of God The question is, as far as God applied, and I guess I'm not I guess I would like to tell the

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world that he's more like Don ISIS than any other name I know where they should this book is available and in print for those who want to see the the god diet and ISIS named, right. God diagnosis his name in this book,

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and of course, it's I'm well aware of the absurdity of using a classical Greek god to indicate some pressing power in our own lives and in our own history. But it's it's not really an encouraging thought there may be no other name

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available. Well, then let's take it as you were referring earlier to the consistency of finding Blake. You find Dionysus at that center, which you circumambulate you also I was thinking Blake

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and wake you always you always find Blake and you always find Finnegans Wake I'm glad you mentioned Finnegans Wake, because that boss I left him out the aspect of Finnegans Wake that fits in with exactly what

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we're what we're talking about is the symbolism that he put into the into the the initials which for his chief character he called his chief character in Finnegans Wake h c II, which means here comes everybody. And that that's the way I would like

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to think of prophecy rather than an elite or group or a solo prophetic performance. Well, now that evokes for me very deeply. Your scholarly adventure in this book apocalypse and or metamorphosis

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of Islam now when you speak of whatever the fire was, Was that many felt in the 60s. And if you were mirroring a fire at that time,

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in your own work, and if it was a fire you were observing it was also a fire you were burning in, you helped. I mean, you were bearing there was a general conflagration there

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was a collusion Yes. collude and a playing together in the flame. To think that you find Blake and you find weak in Islam in the

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Koran. How did you get there? Why did you go there? And what have you brought back? You've given it to us in the book, but I asked you to say it once more. Well,

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I don't think I can know precisely what what how those things happen. I can I can say some things about it. The first essay in the book, apocalypse and or metamorphosis actually goes back to the 1960. And, and it was it was written just after

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I'd written life against death, and it was at the beginning of the 60s 1960. And, and, and it was a Phi Beta Kappa address of Columbia. And I, I guess my my

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impulse there was probably to be defiantly naughty. That or at least that was my interpretation of Don ISIS wanted me to be excessive in revolution, right? So I was dancing inappropriately for a Phi Beta Kappa ration, but out of that speech, it says that

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that that it ends with Blake and and and after it invokes the name of diagnosis, it's it then steps back and and wonders and opens the question of the relation between diagnosis and Christ. And I remember one phrase from that first chapter

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it says, Only a fool would take down ISIS and Christ to be mutually exclusive opposites. Which leaves Nietzsche in the cold and and you're very you're you're absolutely right, Blake

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and Nietzsche and and James Joyce Finnegans Wake, those are are my my constant companions and throughout this period, and they and they stay as my companions. But Dionysus versus Christ

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this topic this topic gets, gets merged or enlarge by another topic, which has been rather an academic one that I've had with me on all my academic life since about 1948. I have thought about and lectured about Hebrew ism and Hellenism. The title or the

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contrast between Hebrew ism and Hellenism goes back to a famous essay of the 19th century by Matthew Arnold. But I think it's a it's the word some the words talk to a dilemma or a a being pulled in opposite directions which I have felt throughout my

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whole life. And, and and explain some of the reasons why I've put so much energy really genuine energy into being a professor of the classics. I I have

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I have lived with that question of Hebrews in verses Hellenism I remember when I first taught 1948 when I first arrived at Wesleyan middle University, Middletown, Connecticut, that was at that time, a really Wesleyan Methodist school and

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they had required chapel and I thought I was being very daring when I In a humanities course that we used to have in those days when we had read the great books, and we put them in this big picture. I lectured on Hebrew yes and with Hellenism,

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and I came forward at that time as Mr. Hellenism as opposed to Hebrew, us and that's to say, I came forward I identify being Greek with being non Jewish. That's to say, being Greek was being pagan, and non Christian, so that I, my, in my first

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incarnation, I thought of myself as a pagan and a hellenist, as opposed to a Hebrew Bible man and a Christian. And, and this, this, this issue, the history of Christianity has and and its fate, and its fortunes its its metamorphosis, the metamorphosis

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of Christianity have been all through my teaching life or even adult life a, an abiding concern. It was I it was, perhaps something as vulgar and as well known as the commodity

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revolution in Iran, which pointed this underlying concern which gave this underlying concern on Christianity and classical culture, he brought us in and Hellenism Islam to some extent, functioned

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as a as a third option, neither Hebrew ism nor Hellenism bought a a contradiction to Christianity from inside the Hebrew Christian tradition. And then of course, the the Islamic

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recourse to Hellenism became of vital significance to me, not only the Sufi, but also the philosopher's interpretation. And and it remains in my mind as as one of the ways of breaking out off the

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the narrow it seems to me view which which identifies Christianity with all those who call themselves Christianity, it seems to me that that that Christianity includes I hope, also Dinesh Ian's also apostates, like like William

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Blake, and James Joyce, but also also Muhammad on who's named the pigs. He too, is as a as a as a, as I see him a a reformer of this tradition.

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I have a deep commitment. And I think one that I can't, I don't know where it comes from to, to, when to to find my way when feeling lost by looking for some kind of emphasis that would unify rather than diversify the the contents of this fragmented

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world. And I, I think that the the, especially during the period after the Islamic Revolution in Iran, I felt the antagonism between Western orthodoxy Western Christian orthodoxy and Islam to be exceptionally acute. And, and I

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felt like confronting it or fronting it by, by this attention to the Islam and its position in the world. I've never regretted it. But I must say that I reached a point where I could not pursue it. I reached the point where to pursue it

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further, I'd have to study Arabic and at my age that was not possible. Well, then let me see if I can connect here. When you say that you look for for the unity or that is one of your quests is

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the unity in the diversity, the unity that would even hold together the wake, that the unity in like, the unity that would would find like at home, in a prophetic tradition, the prophetic tradition and the on page 193. In Dionysus in 1990,

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the image you present, which is also throughout your work, of course, such metaphors, but you speak of a fraction, the solemn moment of consecration, the breaking of the bread over the cup in communion, on page 193,

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and, and then the as you have, so carefully developed, you summarize in one quotation, to eat and to be eaten, this is the union since desire is beyond measure. And do go on to write and we were talking you mentioned earlier about our

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changing times as a transformation and transfiguration of desire. But, but then here in 1990, you write these are all metaphors, to grasp the full reality of an embodied life of polymorphous bodily inter communication, to

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contradict the spectral world of entertainment, and the narcissistic dreams of pleasure without pain. These metaphors apply to even such incorporeal things as books. It is an approximation to the truth to see with Milton the Eucharist in

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every book consumption, the precious life lot of master spirit treasured up for a life beyond life. It is a further step forward to see the cannibalism in the Eucharist. The Dionysian is strong enough to take responsibility, the book

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sets the reader on fire, the meaning is fresh, fresh creation, the eruption of poetry, meaning is always surplus, meaning an excess extracted the too much, the far too meaningless of Finnegans Wake.

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That's quite a mouthful, isn't it? No, you have lived a life of poetry and your work always begins a journey that concludes in poetry, it commences in poetry,

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I think I'm actually just in the anti chambers. And, and not not in the real front courts of poetry. I hoped such people serve a good function. But I don't really regard myself as a poet on it. But I think it might be useful in my work is perhaps

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I have done something to demonstrate that you do not have to be a poet in order to be a poet, that these that that well that you can be, you can scissors and paste, what I do is collage what I do is what I do quite well as a collage. And I'm

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always writing on the back of poets and other people. And I I show, I think I help to show what can be done by people who don't have an original gift for any kind of authentic poetry, but who can ride piggyback on the poets who can't who are real

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poets and make some their own collage out of their readings in this, perhaps I've shown something along this line, well polymorpha these these phrases which you talk, so, many of us are polymorphous bodily inter communication. And then

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your your metaphor is, flame is is is burning and experiencing life with the full richness of the body without any splittings with with it Unity of flame that unites the prophetic tradition unites the poetic insight the poetic intuition.

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Well, it seems to me that I have set the agenda for you very well. We are as we look at diagnosis, soon to be 1992. Political Economy needs a theory of sacrifice and sacrifice necessarily involves

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the sacred. The unconditional splendor of material things is accessible only to a newborn sense of religious all, with Blake saying everything lives and everything that lives is holy. If the masses consolidate their presence on the stage of

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history, a new religion will emerge to take the place of the old religions administered by specialists in public consumption. It cannot be the obsolete nature worship that conservationism is vainly trying to resuscitate a sacred act must

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involve violence and rupture breaking the boundary. And human culture is human sacrifice. In that the end of that paragraph, you'd want to cite the heroic a frenzy of a of a Jimi Hendrix. So

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as I sense, those heroic words of normal Brown, as we enter the last decade of the 20th century, get a very profound sense that I am still learning from a teacher

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who has a very serious intuition of how desire can be transformed and transfigured. As we look at the evening, newscasts from all around the world, with all the questions that arise with this global economy, economy meaning household. I guess, again, the

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question is your feeling you're feeling about the new religion, as you say, you're a sense of Dayana Dionysus, as, as a name of God, that that can be known. And how could we live that? How could we know that

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you have read a number of paragraphs, several paragraphs from this last chapter. And therefore, people who are listening to this tape will have a good sense of the hyper character of the rhetoric which goes into this this piece, it's

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it's florid, it's high flown. It's exaggerated, it's excessive, it's excessive. I and I, I am pleased that I was able to do it. I told you that

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that a subsequent chapter is lying around this study right now. And in embryonic form. And I remember Wordsworth defined poetry as it as emotion

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recollected in tranquility. Well, I have wondered, I am now we are now in another year, and I'm going over some of this this area that is covered in high speed, and at a high altitude and some of the passages of which you you read a show, I

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think high speed and high altitude, excessive excitement and so forth. I'm going over this ground, in my own mind more slowly. And I asked myself did I go too far?

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The theme of success, of course, but is there such a thing as going too far? Or can I go further? And I am working on that subject right now. And I'm particularly the passage the second passage that you read there, had the beginning it

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began with a reference to political economy. Exactly. I am particularly Interested with the collapse of socialism, the triumph of capitalism, the uncertainty of the depression in the United States and everything. I'm particularly

00:45:12.180 - 00:45:33.120

interested to see if I can. Did I go too far? Or can I go farther? With regard to the economic implications of this, of this last chapter? I don't know whether you remember the last chapter of life against death. But now that we're

00:45:33.120 - 00:45:42.450

actually the resurrection body, no the last chapter, but one, which was on which I think is called filthy lucre, right, right.

00:45:42.540 - 00:46:06.390

And it is a very long study of political economy and, and the pathology of Avarice and greed and consumerism, I have been going over that, and thinking of ways in which I

00:46:06.390 - 00:46:28.680

might be able to trying to see if there are ways in which I can say something more sober, without, without violating the spirit of Dionysus. You know, there is a there is a in the mystical literature, I remember the Latin, the aim of the mystic

00:46:28.680 - 00:46:45.780

is so Bria embryol TAs, sober bird drunkenness, this is hard to attain. And I don't always make it and some of those passages that you read sound more like drunk than sober. But those are the ones that I'd love the most.

00:46:47.070 - 00:47:06.570

But that speaks for yourself. So I will do my own anthology of brown and I don't know whether you will approve it, or it'll be an unauthorized anthology. Well, you speak of sacrifice. And I want to ask this

00:47:07.440 - 00:47:26.130

course I'm thinking in the first place there are asking the first place of, of sacrifice as, as an ingredient and all political economy. That's a save what we have what we have to all of us have to do in order to balance our little budgets. I'm thinking

00:47:26.130 - 00:47:45.300

of sacrifices, economic sacrifices, which you all make an order to stay ahead sacrifices. So I'm also trying to relate that word to the Eucharist, the sacrifice at the other end. And we'll see

00:47:53.580 - 00:48:11.640

where are you going with a sense of sacrifice and world economy? Well, the Lord only knows. I can pick up some themes of what you said, Remember, we were

00:48:11.640 - 00:48:31.230

talking a short while ago, of, of my devotion to the theme of unity. And, and one of the the ways and you've been speaking about Christian theology and others, one of the ways in which this

00:48:31.380 - 00:48:51.000

theme of unity, one of the metaphors with which this theme of unity is articulated for me, is of course, the New Testament. phrase, we are all members of one body. We are all members of one body, by the way, you notice that the word body is that you

00:48:51.630 - 00:49:11.880

emphasized in one of the passages from the last chapter of that book, the word body is He did not say we are all members of one spirit, we're all members of one body. Now, that phrase, we are all members of one body is one of the points at

00:49:11.880 - 00:49:39.570

which it seems to me. The Christian theology and Dionysian theology overlap and intersect Dionysus is very much the God of unity and unification. Who, who abolishes the boundary separating people. And and that aspect, reappears in

00:49:39.570 - 00:50:07.500

Christianity in this quotation and and again, our guess is St. Paul, who says that Christ has destroyed the boundary walls separating us that that that is a Dionysian kind of affirmation. The third thing that I think that has to be that has obsessed

00:50:07.500 - 00:50:35.760

my mind, here unity, members of one body is sacrifice, I relate, I relate the flown, it seems to me that the that the to understand the manner in which we are members of one body, we have to think of of sacrificial of sacrifice rather than well,

00:50:36.960 - 00:50:55.170

rather than, I don't know what one has to think of sacrifice. There is a contrast here between I don't know what you haven't mentioned another chapter, another phase of the work that

00:50:55.170 - 00:51:12.960

goes into apocalypse and or metamorphosis, and that is my interest in Spinoza. A very difficult philosopher, but a philosopher who is not friendly to the idea of sacrifice, not friendly to the idea of sacrifice the way Blake is

00:51:12.960 - 00:51:33.150

friendly to the idea of sacrifice, for example. And I have he has meditating on that, but who is a philosopher above all of unity. You have, you have, I think, the most grandiose and greatest effort in the philosophy of spoke or

00:51:33.150 - 00:51:54.360

Spinoza, to articulate a philosophy of unity without the notion of sacrifice. And I looked at it very carefully, and I don't think it works. The reason why, my present notion, the reason is, the reason why it doesn't work is that because

00:51:55.170 - 00:52:13.170

Spinoza not only leaves out the idea of sacrifice, he leaves out the idea of death. I do not think that you can leave out the idea of death, and I do not think that you can make any philosophy of how we are members of one body, unless you realize

00:52:13.170 - 00:52:43.890

that each one individually dies, we are members of a unity of which in which is made out of we become one by dying. And this is still in keeping with with your central theme that I have always followed him when you have spoken of the

00:52:43.890 - 00:53:04.950

resurrection of the body and life in the body, that it is to be celebrated. It is to be explored as a unity that we are whole persons, that the body is never to be disregarded. Even in death, as the body is laid down, as it were, there is an

00:53:04.950 - 00:53:27.240

apotheosis apotheosis of the perishable. And as you write, and as your work is moving, celebrating life, life that longs for death by fire, love is all fire. And so Heaven and Hell are the same place. And you go on to connect this in these

00:53:27.600 - 00:53:52.230

wonderful intellect and terrible intellectual leaps about the transvaluation of economic value that we are experiencing yet, at this time into a new era beyond Marxism, beyond Freud, and you speak of creative destruction. You've also cited the worker and

00:53:52.230 - 00:54:30.780

creative imagination and fee often. There are so many themes here that let's think of me as Santa Claus. I bring a big load and it's overflowing. But it seems to me that that that you people

00:54:30.780 - 00:54:46.620

of a younger generation can take some of these goodies. But I've done something just by bringing on an overloaded cart into the market. Yeah. Well

00:54:49.170 - 00:55:13.140

May I speak for many in admiring that cart, and and that gift that you have given And I would like to close by quoting some of normandeau Browns words that I'm sure so many of our listeners will know

00:55:14.070 - 00:55:33.990

that words that have fueled the flame the antenna made between mind and body, word and deed, speech and silence overcome. Everything is only a metaphor. There is

00:55:34.020 - 00:55:48.240

only poetry. Thank you. Thank you, john. inflammatory words from a flame that burns ever so brightly. Thank you for your

00:55:48.240 - 00:55:48.690

time.