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Morton Marcus: Good evening everybody, this is Morton Marcus, and this is The Poetry Show. And that music introduces tonight's guest, an old friend, who personally hasn't been on the show for a long, long while, has a whole lot of new work, and

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that is the wonderful poet Robert Sward who has had 16 books out, the last of them was "A Much Married Man," a novel, and before that “Four Incarnations,“ his New and Selected Poems, I think that was probably around your second or

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third Selected Poems, wasn't it? Robert Sward: The Second, the second. Morton Marcus: We're going to talk later about a very interesting workshop that Robert is doing, but it's great to

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welcome him back here. And Robert, welcome, again. Robert Sward: A pleasure to be here. Morton Marcus: You and I've done around five or six of these shows over the years.

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Robert Sward: You had me on your show a few weeks after I came into Santa Cruz, something about 1985. Morton Marcus: What we really are going to be talking to you about here is a whole new work, which really is about your

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father, and it's called "A Rosicrucian in the Basement." And you gave a reading from the work, oh I guess it must be around three weeks ago now, and it just had everyone mesmerised for its humor, its insight, and the wonderful originality of

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your work and language, which I've been following for, dare I say how many years, it certainly was much, much longer than when you were here in- in Santa Cruz. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the "Rosicrucian in the Basement," because now I

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want everyone within the area of the hearing of this program to hear what's going on with you now. Robert Sward: Well thanks Mort. "The Rosicrucian in the Basement" poems I suppose began something like 12 months ago. I

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began hearing the voice of my father, who was born something like 100 years ago in Russia and died in 1982. And the poems began to come to me in the form of him saying things and then a voice, maybe not exactly my voice responding to what he was

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saying. The consequence of this is many of thiis- these poems have a strong element of dialogue in them. And I suppose I might characterize them as prose poems and one of the inspiration behind that actually is- is your own work. And I'm

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thinking here of the booklet "Why People Could Fly." My dad was born in Russia, as I say, as an Orthodox Jew, they came to America around 1904, the family had survived some pogroms; they'd had enough, they went to New York, they settled in

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Goshen, and then my dad eventually moved to Chicago where he became a podiatrist, a foot specialist. And so for the last 20 or so years of his life, he was a- he became a devout Rosicrucian, and it was a- fascinating, I mean to sit in

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the podiatry chair myself as his patient, and have him work on my feet and carve arch supports, and be talking metaphysics, be talking about the other world, be talking about angels, be talking about visitations, probably doing very practical

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tradesmen-like things with his- with his hands? Morton Marcus: Well, again, what the "Rosicrucian in the Basement" also has though is your incredible humour and with- that really, you know, pierces to a deeper spot. And if I don't

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know whether we share the prose poem origins, but we certainly share that the origins of that humor, which is Eastern European Jewish humor, which is the way our people have gotten through, you know, thousands of years, and which has become a

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trademark. Could we hear maybe the first poem to just let people know out there the flavor. Robert Sward: Flavor‘s the word. ROSICRUCIAN IN THE BASEBMENT

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"What's to explain," he asked. He's a closet meditator. Rosicrucian in the basement. In my father's eyes, dream. "There are two worlds," he says, liquid-filled crystal flask and yellow glass egg on the altar, he's the "professional man" – So

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she calls him, my stepmother, that and "the Doctor." ‘‘The doctor will see you now‘‘ she says, working as his receptionist. He's podiatrist – foot surgery a specialty – on Chicago's north side. Russian born Orthodox Jew with zaftig

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Polish wife, posh, silvery white starlet, Hilton Hotel hostess. This is a secret, this is where he goes when he's not making money. The way to the other world is into the basement and he can't live without this other world. "If he has to, he has

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to," my stepmother shrugs, keeps door locked when he's not down there, keeps the door locked when he is. "Two nuts in the minibar," she mutters banging pots in the kitchen upstairs. Anyway, she needs to protect the family. ‘‘Jew overboard,‘‘ she

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yells, banging dishes. ‘‘Peasant,‘‘ he yells back. "There are two worlds," he says lighting incense, ‘‘the seen and the unseen, and she doesn't understand. This is my treasure," he says, led cooking in an iron pan, liquid darkness

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and some gold. "Son, there are three souls: one, the Supernal, two, the concealed femal soul, soul like glue holds it all together." ‘‘And the third?‘‘ I ask. We stand there. "I can't recall." He begins to chant and wave incense, no tallis no

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yarmulke, just knotty pine walls, and minibar size of a ouija board, a little schnapps and shot glasses on the lower shelf, and I'm no help. Just back from seven thousand dollar trip, four weeks with Swami Muktananda, thinking, Now there

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is someone who knew how to convert the souls longing into gold. Father, my father: he has this emerald tablet, with the single word written on it, and an arrow pointing. Morton Marcus: Great. And I think that will allow people

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who- begin to get a sense of what's going on and the work- that language is, of course, also just absolutely marvelous. And for anyone out there, and of course, Robert has taught poetry, taught English, taught everything, you really get a

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sense of the- the perfect, specific details that are used that make the scene come alive. I mean, of all of the details you could have chosen, those are the perfect details to give, this tremendous dichotomy between the spiritual world and

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yet the very mundane household world. You know, the ‘‘knotty pine,‘‘ even the use of the word ‘‘basement‘‘ believe it or not. Really and that this is carried on in the basement, really, really is marvelous. What I would like the people out there

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to listen to, I might as well comment on this too, is the place that you have in these dialogues, and in these poems. That is, whether it is you or not, I don't know. But certainly it is the position of the son and the character of the son to

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the father. Could you talk about that a little bit? Robert Sward: My dad was a difficult person, he was a nine-to-five, eyelid shoe, this is very important if- it's an image that appears frequently in the poems. I would not have

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brought sandals into- into the home in Chicago growing up, this was just outrageous, I would- I sooner would have brought in a bottle of whiskey or something into the kitchen, you know at age 11 or 12. My dad, if you're asking about, like what- what

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sort of person this is? What sort of-? Morton Marcus: But also what type of person you are in the poem, or I say the son because this obviously is you, but not you. So because I see interesting things going on with

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the son in the poem, both literarily, what you had to do, and the position you think that the character of the son occupies in the poem, and maybe in reality also, which of course is the third dimension.

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Robert Sward: And sometimes the son is the straight man. Morton Marcus: There you go. You are the Abbott to your father's Costello. Robert Sward: And those are exactly the comedians who were

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among the dominant comedians, Jack Benny, Fred Allen in the late 40s, and 50s when much of this occurred, and I'm what? A pre-teen, teen, you know, when- when this is- what is it the word- was going on. Though at a point my dad eventually did move

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to Palm Springs, California. And so some of the poems are set in Chicago, Skokie, Illinois. Others, some of the later ones are set in in Palm Springs. I'd like to do perhaps- Morton Marcus: Sure

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Robert Sward: You know to take- take one more- Morton Marcus: Because that's what- we want to hear the poems, not so much my asking inane questions. Robert Sward: Hardly.

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A PODIATRIST'S son, which I think- Morton Marcus: There we go. Robert Sward: [Cross talk] has said that, ‘‘when our feet hurt, we hurt all over.‘‘ That's- I looked at- looked that up in a-

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in a book, encyclopedia, and that- that's been attributed to Socrates. "When our feet hurt, we hurt all over." 1. THE PODIATRIST‘S SON

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Mother: “One day the kid will wake up and come down to earth and enroll at the Illinois College of Podiatry.“ Father: “But look, his feet aren‘t on the ground.‘‘ ‘‘They've never been in the ground. He's a dreamer.‘‘ ‘‘Just look at that

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posture! And he toes in. Poor feet, poor posture. The boy lives in another world.‘‘ ‘‘Wait, I think he needs a new pair of shoes.‘‘ ‘‘Oxford's shoes that will support him, shoes with laces, shoes that breathe.‘‘ ‘‘Listen. Listen to

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your father,‘‘ she says. 2. HOW TO SHOP FOR SHOES “No loafers, no sandals, nothing without laces“ he says. ‘‘There are fifty-two bones in the feet, thirty-three joints; more than

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100 tendons, muscles, and ligaments...‘‘ We're on our way to Jackson shoes. ‘‘Fit for length, fit for width, get both feet fitted.‘‘ ‘‘People are asymmetrical. You'll find one foot, one testicle, one breast larger than the other...‘‘

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“Listen, listen to your father“ she says. ‘‘Feet swell, grow larger as the day goes on.‘‘ ‘‘So nu? shop when they're bigger, shop for the larger foot.‘‘ ‘‘Otherwise... heel pain, heel spurs, bunions and hammertoes....‘‘ ‘‘Remember,

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there's no break in period, shoes don't break in, buy what feels right now.‘‘ ‘‘Listen, listen to your father.‘‘ 3. GETTING THROUGH THE NIGHT ‘‘So the foot is the mirror of health. What's that smell? Let

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me see your feet. Oi! How many times do I have to say it. A pair of feet has 25,000 sweat glands, can produce eight ounces, a cup of perspiration in a single day. One quarter of all the bones in the human body are in the feet.‘‘ He sits at my

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bedside carving arch supports. ‘‘Take a flashlight. Never walk around in the dark. Most foot fractures occur at night... “Now remember your slippers“ he says as I head for the bathroom. In my father's house there are no bedtime stories.

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Morton Marcus: Yeah, well, you know, I had a coach, one of my coaches in high school and he would insist that we wear a certain kind of sneaker because- what I guess now they call an athletic shoe.

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Robert Sward: Right? And cross training shoes Morton Marcus: Because his great line with pointed finger was “you're no better than your feet are.“ Robert Sward: I like that.

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Morton Marcus: You can use that if you want. And I was thinking about that when I heard the reading, you know, three weeks, three or four weeks ago, I was thinking, oh yes, this is coach Haskins all over again. A lot of dialogue, a lot of dialogue in

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this, and it's great and it's terrific. And as you and I know, as writers, dialogue really makes people and situations come alive. Do you want to talk about that? Why- why so much dialogue? Well, what gave you the idea that it should be mostly

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dialogue? Robert Sward: Partly because that's- that's how the poems arrive, let's say with my dad's voice, and then the voice that- of my own voice, the quasi Robert responding to the- to his

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father's voice, so they are like little playlets. I mean, they're like one and two minute plays. And I've asked myself, I mean, I use dialogue in my poems, I have in the past, but never to this extent. I admire Robert Frost‘s use of dialogue in his poems,

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and I admire the way Elliot uses dialogue in his poems. Morton Marcus: So do you think these were- these were influences? Now that you look on it? I mean, obviously, these came out of a very intuitive, visceral sense of just getting

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the work done. But now that you think of influences, do you think there are those other influences? Robert Sward: There are those influences and in fact, I mean, some of what you do, and truly Mort, "When People Could Fly,"

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and the [unidentified] of the Baal Shem Tov are in there. But in addition to that I'm wondering, well, why so much dialogue? Partly because I'm feeling confident with it. And one reason I think I'm feeling confident with the dialogue is

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you know, as you know, I've worked as a as a journalist [unidentified] for the Globe and Mail up in Canada, as a food reviewer here into- interviewing people all over Santa Cruz County, as a matter of fact, I worked for a business to

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business network, recording their voices, writing down what they were saying, and paying attention to people when they're talking in a way that I had never done prior to having to earn my living as a freelancer.

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Morton Marcus: I mean, besides you have a great ear. I mean, this has been in your- both your fiction style and your poetry style, I mean, great sense of rhythm. But you've also written fiction.

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Robert Sward: That's right. Morton Marcus: And you know, you've got great dialogue in fiction. So, you know Robert Sward: It's a love of language, and it's a love of

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musical language of course, goes without saying, but also, I hear music when people speak, I'm really- I'm listening to the music, I'm sure you're doing the same thing of- of how they're phrasing things.

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Morton Marcus: I think- I think William Carlos Williams would have loved these poems, because he's always listening to the American voicebox you know, and this is very, maybe a very strong ethnic flavor to this, but it certainly is your dad

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speaking American. Robert Sward: Yeah. Morton Marcus: It's- It's- It's his own American. But- and so is your mom but- or the speakers who are here. I got to tell you

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what I'm doing out there, people. The people- though I'm saying that they're Robert‘s father and mother and the character here is Robert, that is never the correct thing to say. They are characters in poems, and Robert has shaped

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them, or any writer has shaped them to be who he or she wants them to be. So I keep correcting myself but I- that's how, I identify- Robert Sward: Thank you

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Morton Marcus: -so much. Let's hear some more. Robert Sward: ONE STOP FOOT SHOP "We walk with angels, and they are our feet." “Vibrating energy packets,“ he calls them. "Bundles of soul in

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a world of meat." Early warning system– dry skin, and brittle nails, feelings of numbness and cold, these are symptoms, they mean something, I see things physicians miss. All you have to do is open your eyes, just open your eyes and you'll see seven

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eighths that everything is invisible, a spirit inside the spirit. The soul is rooted in the foot. As your friend Bly says “the soul longs to go down." Feet know the way to the other world. That world where people are awake. So do me a

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favor dreaming no dreams. “A dreamer is someone who's asleep, you know the material world is infinite, but boring infinite,“ he says, cigarette in hand, little wings fluttering at his ankles. "And women," he says, smacking his head, “four times

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as many foot problems as men. High heels are the culprit.“ I may be a podiatrist, but I know what I'm about. Feet, feet don't lie, don't cheat, don't kiss ass. Truth is, people's feet are too good for them."

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Morton Marcus: Dare I say that these- the sequence of poems is quite a feat that you're pulling. [Laughter] I won't say it, okay. Let's get on to what Rosicrucian is all about. And this idea, he says in there, you know that “seven eighths of

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things are invisible.“ Now, you and I know that Yeats in his spiritual concerns, especially with Golden Dawn, also was borrowing from Rosicrucianism. So could you say a few words about the Rosicrucians, how they influenced your father, and

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maybe you know a little bit about Yeats as well. Robert Sward: When I'd come back from a visit with Swami Muktananda, my- my, you know, my Jewish, culturally Jewish, my- my dad is doing this, and I'm coming back from India and it

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takes- Morton Marcus: What year did you get back Robert Sward: Would have been late 70s, late, late 1970s. So I go into the basement and- Jewish North side of Chicago, for the

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first time to see my- my dad's life and this Rosicrucian altar, he's lighting incense, and so forth. And he's got the- what looks to me- I know a little bit about what the alchemists did. They got the merc- mercury, they got the salt, they got the lead

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boiling, and, you know, you're trying to convert the world of meat, the board of dross, I mean, all the things of us that are not going to fly, to help make them fly. And he's going through his- through his ritual, so there's- that- that

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fascination. Also, in my readings with the Yeats, I mean, earlier in graduate school, knowing that Yeats was- was involved with Rosicrucianism, and not wanting to do too much with it at that time, it didn't interest me that much. But when

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my dad made his- I don't know if it's a conversion or not, I then became increasingly interested in what Yeats had done in his own explorations with what was called at one time that- the Golden Dawn which borrowed from- from from the Rosicrucian

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imagery and Rosicrucian practice, and then Yeats has meditated- that they- sometimes they were told to meditate on the rose and all the different aspects of what- of what that might mean for them, whether it's a beauty, mystical union,

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transcendence, seeing- almost like a crystal ball seen through the rose into- into another world, and then have this blend of Christianity in it. Morton Marcus: And that's, you know, one of the things I want

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to get on, I mean, it's very, very Christian in the end. Robert Sward: Yeah. Morton Marcus: And of course, it's talking about the rose which is Mary and the crucifixion. And the symbolism

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is very, very heavy and really permeates so much of Western civilization, the culture from, you know, the later Middle Ages Robert Sward: [Cross talk] but Richard Ellmann, by the way i on.

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"Yeats, The Man And The M sks“ talks, a couple pag s of discussion abou Yeats's relationship wi h Madame Blavatsky, with Theos phy, the movement into Rosicruci Morton Marcus: Do you know the story about Yeats and Alistair

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nism and how important it was for- for Yeats, you know, for in tance to have this- the system of belief he was constantly l Crowley? Robert Sward: No, tell me.

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Morton Marcus: You know who Alistar Crowley is. Robert Sward: Of course, of course! Morton Marcus: Called maybe the most evil man in the world [laughter], who maintained that he had gotten his spirit guide

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when he was in the Cairo museum one day. Crowley tried to take over Golden Dawn. And it has been recorded that Yeats sat in the doorway on the stoop of the Golden Dawn temple for a week and kept him from crossing the threshold. And that's how

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committed Yeats was. Now, whether that's apocryphal or not, we don't know. What we do know is that no one can record where Yeats was that week. So there you go, you know, these wonderful little stories, but he did know Crowley and he did

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clash with him. And they did belong to the same- the same spiritual area. Robert Sward: One of the things I think what they told us in graduate school was- was perhaps as a way of not having to deal

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with Yeat's Rosicrucianism is that- well, he needed a system and this worked about as well as any, but I think it went a lot deeper than that, you know, with the- with- with Yeats. Morton Marcus: Yeah. Um, okay, we- I would like to hear some

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more poetry. Robert Sward: GOOD NEWS FROM THE OTHER WORLD. I'm sitting in my dad's podiatry chair, and now he's doing stuff with the arch supports and he makes us announcement, good news from the

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other world. This is when in Palm Springs “Dad you're looking good“ I say, “like the fountain of youth.“ His hands on my feet grimacing, weary, mercurial, wing footed 80 year old doctor, wears a denim shirt, bola tie, turquoise and

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ilver tip, tanned, tennis playing, macho... “Making m re money now, more than in Skok e. But you need arch supports,“ he says, encasing my feet in p aster. Damaged feet, feet out o alignment, four-times marri d 40 year old feet. “Well,

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good news from the other world, he says. “Really?“ “The void i Well, tell us where you think the Rosicrucian poems are going? nothing but people's breath “ “So something surviv s?“ I say. “Feet survive, feet a d breath survive,“ he says,

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people's feet and people s breath.“ “That is good news“ say. “Don't mock me“ he says, you know, you still toe in, th t your head pitches forwar . You're past the halfway mark, on. God is not altruistic you k ow, he doesn't make excep

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ions. Of course, things are d rk and light at once.“ Huh, who is he, whoever was my fathe ? Bloodied in some Russia pogrom. Nixon lover on the no th side of Chicago. Blue denim, bola tie republican. Rosicr cian cowboy in the promis

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d land. Do you think it's going to be in the end a book-length manuscript? It seems to be moving that way. As you may know, I've been

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working for some time on a manuscript called "Portrait of an LA Daughter," and I thought that was a completed manuscript. And just about the same point, I thought that that was a completed manuscript, maybe about 12 months ago, these

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Rosicrucian poems began to- began to happen. Morton Marcus: Now, let me stop you right here. Because as I remember, and catch me if I'm wrong, this is one of the ways that Robert Sward works, right? You have maybe two or three

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manuscripts going at the same time, and it may take years for each of them to reach fruition. Robert Sward: That's right. Morton Marcus: Yeah.

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Robert Sward: That's right. Morton Marcus: And it's a very interesting way to work, I can't do that. And I know a lot of other writers can't or can do it. But for people out there who are, you know, writers, I'm

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always sort of making comments for, everyone works in a different way and their minds work in a different way. I know novelists who can be working on three or four novels at the same time.

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Robert Sward: For me, that would be just almost impossible. Morton Marcus: Yeah, it's hard for me, but I know Evan Hunter, who has a lot of different names, is usually working on three or four novels at one time, and just, you know, just-

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and they're all getting out there. And they're all usually two or three novels published in a year, under different names and under different genres. So it's a very, very interesting way of walking- working because your mind, I think, would have

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to re-adjust to different ways of- of perceiving the world, maybe the lyric, maybe the narrative, and then you know different voices, different focuses. How did- how do you do this? Okay.

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Robert Sward: Well, what was specifically with with the "Portrait of an LA Daughter" book, that does have the unity of including many poems about family, grandfather, mother. I mean, one of the classes I love teaching is writing your life

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history and and this is- it's a labor of love, the teaching as well as this- this work. So as I say, I thought the "Portrait of an LA Daughter" book was- was complete and then I thought the side- something going on on the side in addition to that was the

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poems for- for my dad. It wasn't systematized, I mean, so I think if you're going to- if you're going to work on many different fronts, it's often helpful to have, okay, I know, you kind of have a blueprint in your mind, you have a plan, you have an

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idea where this is going to go, and this other project is going to go. But with the Rosicrucian poems, one came, and then the next came, and then the next. So I'm up to about 25 now, but at some point, it occurred to me, well, why not start the new book

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with the Rosicrucian poems itself. So it's like, not exactly spliced because that- they belong there, these are- these are- Morton Marcus: They're family.

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Robert Sward: Our family includes, you know, these- but then it also includes four poems for my son, Michael, which has to do with- with my own role as father, vis a vis my own son, I have five children.

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Morton Marcus: Totally went out of my brain what I was going to ask, but- Robert Sward: I have an effect on you, Mort! Morton Marcus: No, it had to do with something- so that's okay.

00:26:07.730 - 00:26:25.190

We have time for one more poem before the break. And before you start to read it, I want to say that Robert has written- for those people who are at the reading, he has written a new Rosicrucian poem, and will hopefully read it in the next

00:26:25.190 - 00:26:33.420

half hour. Robert Sward: After- after, after the break. Morton Marcus: Right. And we are talking with Robert Sward about the new sequence of poems called the “Rosicrucian in the

00:26:33.450 - 00:26:46.680

Basement,“ which he has been writing and which mesmerized a very large audience here around three weeks ago. So Robert, one more poem and then we're going to take our usual break. We'll hear more Klezmer music to keep the flavor going.

00:26:47.510 - 00:26:59.960

Robert Sward: Thank you Mort. ARCH SUPPORTS, THE FITTING Greets me in the waiting room, father with waxed five-eyelet shoes, son, too, with spit shine, five eyelet shoes. This

00:26:59.960 - 00:27:16.790

is how I was brought up, I do it to show respect, value your feet. “Okay un-sock those feet of yours,“ he says “let's see the felons.“ I unlace my Florsheims, moist feet emerging from their cave of leather. Father holds up arch supports,

00:27:16.940 - 00:27:32.810

curved knife in hand, he shakes his head as he trims just so. “Remind me, why do I need these things,“ I ask “weak feet-“ I‘m sorry- weak- ‘‘weak ankles and spine,‘‘ he says, ‘‘poor posture, your feet are fine. Truth is you should be more like

00:27:32.810 - 00:27:50.030

your feet, robust healthy feet. Take a lesson from your feet‘‘ he says. “Feet appreciate custom made, no Dr. Scholl's for these feet.“ Slips in the inserts, arch support like a shoe inside a shoe, leather inside leather. ‘‘Every step I take, you're

00:27:50.030 - 00:28:54.020

going to be there‘‘ I say. ‘‘Every step‘‘ he says. ‘‘Every step of the way.‘‘ Morton Marcus: This is the time when The Poetry Show gives you some local PSAs or public service announcements or what's

00:28:54.020 - 00:29:10.460

going on in the world of poetry. And then we will get right back to our interview and talk with Robert Sward. First of all, this program is supported in part by contributions from the community of pay- KUSP listeners and we thank you out there for your

00:29:10.460 - 00:29:30.260

support. This Friday, January 19, at 7:30 at Louden Nelson, there will be four readings, two fiction writers and two poets: Wilma Marcus Chandler will be one of the readers or Claire's Brett- Claire Braz-Valentine will be another, Peter Gray, a

00:29:30.260 - 00:29:49.040

fiction writer, and Elaine McCarthy will be the other fiction writer. So that is Wilma, Marcus Chandler, and Claire Braz-Valentine, Peter Gray, and Elaine McCarthy. Again were? Louden Nelson 7:30 this Friday, and that is the ongoing

00:29:49.040 - 00:30:06.620

poetry readings that happen usually the last week in January or maybe the third in this case So do keep those in mind. Als very, very interesting this Mon ay noon on "Radiogram" with ric Schoeck, Magical Realism m ets modern America on the next r

00:30:06.620 - 00:30:22.310

dio gram with authors Ana Cas illo and Dashka Slater. Ana C stillo discusses her latest nov l "Peel My Love like an Onion about a great American flamen o dancer who is physically disa led. And Dashka Slater discusses her novel "The Wishing Box," a y

00:30:22.310 - 00:30:40.910

ung woman's odyssey set in Cal fornia. Ana Castillo is one o my favorite Chicano writers, she's really marvelous. That's M nday at noon with also Eric S hoeck, who is one of my favorit s, stay tuned to KUSP, we've g t fascinating material and pr

00:30:40.940 - 00:30:58.190

grams for you all day long ev ry day. Well, we're back with Robert Sward. And Robert, we are talking about the "Rosicrucian i the Basement," the new sequen e of poems that you're writing which concerns your fathe who was both a podiatrist an

00:30:59.570 - 00:31:14.400

a Rosicrucian, maybe no Robert Sward: In the reverse order. [Chuckles] For- one t ing that I might want to a k him more about, the relationsh p with the father, but it- it must be difficult for parents

00:31:14.400 - 00:31:28.680

you know, say, a devout C tholic, an Orthodox Jew, to ave a child change religion and o in a very different directi n than what the parents might ha e expected. Not much has been aid really, what it's like from he point of view of the child.

00:31:28.680 - 00:31:43.050

I mean, for myself, for exam le, I would have been very happy to have had my dad just be Jewis and just continue the practic or, you know, what passed for ractice in the family. And the to, having to adjust to this this- this change. I talked

00:31:43.050 - 00:31:56.930

about of my sister, who's three ears younger than I am, and we' e- we're both perplexed. She eve more so, she didn't even want to talk about it. And she lived ith it long Morton Marcus: Well, I think you know that- I think it's what

00:31:56.930 - 00:32:15.620

you're talking about, our parents, especially our parents who come from such a suffering, poor background, I mean, real poverty that you and I can't imagine. And this goes on, you know, with Latino Americans, it goes on with every ethnic and

00:32:15.620 - 00:32:34.370

racial group where maybe the parent gets a foot in the economic doorway, and wants to give the child those opportunities. The child takes the opportunities and changes, and it happens all the time. And I know that in my visits to East

00:32:34.370 - 00:32:51.830

Europe, you know, Greece, and what was Yugoslavia, you see again, and again, these people who have left and returned, and they have no place anymore in their society. And it's- it's an amazing problem. And of course, part of it is this juggernaut of

00:32:51.830 - 00:33:07.190

American materialism, an American way of doing things, even Western ways of doing things, which really change the way people see things. And you get an old culture, no matter what it is Chinese, Japanese, Jewish, doesn't make any

00:33:07.190 - 00:33:20.090

difference, it just really wreaks change on the old cultural ways, and there's nothing that can be done about it. I mean, I think, you know, right now we're seeing with the Vietnamese, who we remember, you know, coming over here, many of

00:33:20.090 - 00:33:31.940

them on boats, are just getting over here, leaving their culture and you know, their children and their children's children now have become so Americanized that the grandparents, you know, can't even recognize them, and vice versa.

00:33:32.560 - 00:33:47.350

Robert Sward: But what would you say, you know, following up on your comments, I mean, to have, you know, say one of your relatives or one of your parents have gone and done something rather exotic, that is they've become Rosicrucian, Theosophy,

00:33:47.380 - 00:33:59.080

gone into the practice of yoga, for that matter? Morton Marcus: They would have been considered the black sheep of the family, and they would have been considered crazy. Yeah. Our kids, well, we think they're crazy too. [Laughter]

00:34:00.650 - 00:34:15.830

Robert Sward: So, well part of what's happening in the Rosicrucian book is- is exploring my father's inner life, his- his hidden inner life and he had an- actually go into a quasi cave, in this suburban house, but behind locked doors

00:34:15.830 - 00:34:23.000

as if it were practicing some- Morton Marcus: Right, so in this case, it's not necessarily you, it's- it's your father- Robert Sward: Exactly, exactly.

00:34:23.000 - 00:34:34.420

Morton Marcus: It's taking this- this deed, this exotic deed, this esoteric detour, that was exotic I guess. Robert Sward: And at the same time, he's doing this, here am I, this Bar Mitzvah son going off and going into India and

00:34:34.420 - 00:34:44.850

exploring different forms of yoga and starting a meditation center, even. Morton Marcus: By the way, I will say one thing about that, you know, the Jews have always maintained that they have kept

00:34:44.850 - 00:35:01.500

the purity of their cultural life for 2000 years, and that this will never ever be destroyed. Well, the fact of the matter is that because they were kept in ghettos, is the reason that's happened. The minute they can be assimilated however, it

00:35:01.500 - 00:35:18.720

is amazing how the Jews just like everyone else lose their, you know, their- their very, very strict customs, some of which are both cultural and religious. And of course I knew this a long time ago because I studied Chinese history, and the

00:35:18.720 - 00:35:32.100

Jews, I think it was the Tang Dynasty, 20,000 Jews came to the borders of China and were welcomed into China, were asked about their religion and then said they were told that they could settle there, they did settle there. And by the time

00:35:32.100 - 00:35:53.250

the 1930s came around- around, you know 1000 years later, there were 18 Jews left in China, and there was a synagogue in Beijing. But, you know, everyone there was Chinese and nothing about their forebears or anything like that. So that was

00:35:53.250 - 00:36:02.870

the great assimilation, you know, you just let them assimilate, they assimilate, you know, they don't want to keep on- on the fringes of whatever society they're in. Robert Sward: But there's a adness I mean, that- that, you

00:36:02.870 - 00:36:18.920

now, that kind of pulls at my eart, I mean, to hear that, and can- at the same time, in pite of my own wanderings and bservations of what my dad has one, is- did- is this awareness that- that I'm sure you have, and I have as well of people- of

00:36:18.920 - 00:36:29.450

Jewish people becoming more Orthodox even, there's a moveme t back to it. Morton Marcus: There's movme t back, yeah. I mean, to me, t ere's a sadness -- and this is w at I'm speaking about, you kn

00:36:29.450 - 00:36:45.890

w, the cultural Jewish ways - there's a sadness when we lose these cultures. I mean, th re's a lot of very, very narrow mindedness going on in them b t there is also an immemorial c ntinuation in them. And as this world becomes mo

00:36:45.890 - 00:37:01.280

e and more homogenized, mor and more, alas, maybe Americani ed, we are losing this sens of unique cultures. I know I w nt back to Greece after some years, and went to the islan of Crete, which I've loved nd visited many times, to find t

00:37:01.280 - 00:37:18.470

e Crete was not there anymor . And it was mainly because the airports now we're opening u directly to European trave through the European commu ity. And you could fly from Swe en to Crete, done within one r two hours, and suddenly, it w

00:37:18.650 - 00:37:34.280

s Sweden in the South Medite ranean. And they had lost everyt ing, they'd even lost the concep of how the family worked. And t e kids were just wandering arou d aimlessly all night long, hav ng no sense of purpose whatso ver anymore, and of course when

00:37:34.280 - 00:37:46.160

they weren't doing that they ere watching television, which as coming in from all over E rope and the United States. So i 's- it's sad when you see th t there is a great loss to t e way people have done things. A d as I said, there are drawb

00:37:46.160 - 00:38:03.770

cks. I don't want to romanticize it, but still, what makes peop e unique, what made them unique, what gave them their reasons f r being alive, are really just departing from us at Robert Sward: At the same time there is this great interest in

00:38:04.160 - 00:38:14.450

family history, life history, genealogy. Morton Marcus: Which is the going back we hope. We hope. Robert Sward: And then coming forward, discovery, rediscovering your roots and all that- that means.

00:38:14.480 - 00:38:24.350

Morton Marcus: Hope and hopefully that will go on. But we are getting away from the subject of poetry and I know you have many many more of the Rosicrucian poems to read to us so let's- let's hear some.

00:38:27.240 - 00:38:40.210

Robert Sward: GOD IS A PEDESTRIAN, Palm Springs podiatrist “Trust water son, you can't go wrong with water. See, and it's got dual arm rests, multi-directional massage jets,

00:38:40.240 - 00:38:57.250

pneumatic air switch, a four horsepower motor. So hold here, hold the grab bar, get in son, take a ride on the plumbing express. Good for the feet, good for the back. Foot problems, back problems that go together.“ I'm swept away. "Schlimazel,

00:38:57.550 - 00:39:11.680

hydrotherapy is your friend, hold the grab bar‘‘ he yells. ‘‘You want to know a secret?‘‘ he asks. ‘‘Please, dad, no philosophy.‘‘ ‘‘God is a pedestrian. God who is in heaven is also a man just like you and me.‘‘ “And what about angels?“

00:39:11.680 - 00:39:26.920

"I'm telling you, if they looked after their feet, they wouldn't need to fly.“ “Dad you're nuts.“ “Of course everything is imagination, Rosicrucian says.“ “Rosicrucian?“ “One saw the world in a grain of sand, so nu I see it in a pair of feet.“ “No

00:39:26.950 - 00:39:43.030

dad not feet again.“ “Yes, feet, feet, the sun and the moon and the stars, feet. Feet are heaven too, heaven filled with stars.“ Rosicrucian says, ‘‘the world is a man and the light of the sun and the stars is his body.‘‘ “This is Rosicrucian?“

00:39:43.630 - 00:40:00.580

“[unidentified] think“ he says, “the two are one. God exists in man, so body is a form of soul. Heal the soul and you heal the body. Heal the foot and you heal the soul. That world is in this world. And this world is in that.“ “So what are you saying

00:40:00.580 - 00:40:15.970

Dad? Maybe there is no other side?“ “What am I saying? Wake up, this is the other side, you're there,‘‘ he says handing me a towel, ‘‘right here, right now, you're home.‘‘ Morton Marcus: And that was the new poem you said. It is

00:40:15.970 - 00:40:27.910

delightful. The rhythms, you know, you talk about a prose poem, but the rhythms here are really the rhythms of poetry. And there's the- the beats are usually two beats to the line and even when the lines go longer as I'm reading them

00:40:28.180 - 00:40:40.300

there- he really is talking in two beat phrases all the time. Robert Sward: Essentially, there's like- there's a kind of editing going on, I mean, as- as one is listening to what people are saying, an ordinary conversation in the supermarket

00:40:40.300 - 00:40:54.910

line, conversations with your parents, conversations with your students. The lines that you might then hold on to, or remember, or sample and include in your own work, are often those that have a certain two beat, you know, element, you

00:40:54.910 - 00:41:07.960

know, to them. I've written free verse, I've written rhyming couplets, I've written syllabics, I mean, I have a whole lot, but there's- if it ain't got that swing, it don't mean a thing. And that applies to music as well as to- as well

00:41:07.960 - 00:41:22.750

as to poetry, and including prose poetry. Morton Marcus: Let me ask you about a revision, the lines in here which you revised, talk to me about the revision here and then go back to the line itself. I'll just read three lines, and

00:41:22.750 - 00:41:41.230

then you can read what you changed it to. Tt‘s the bottom of page one of ‘‘God is a Pedestrian‘‘ Okay? And it goes, ‘‘you want to know a secret?" He asks. “Not really.“ “Well, God is a pedestrian. God is in heaven.‘‘ Alright, now you

00:41:41.230 - 00:41:49.420

change ‘‘not really‘‘ there. Okay, could you tell us why you change ‘‘not really‘.‘ Robert Sward: Read that line with ‘‘not really‘‘ one more time?

00:41:49.450 - 00:42:03.460

Morton Marcus: Okay. ‘‘You want to know secret? He asks. “Not really?“ “Well, God is a pedestrian.‘‘ Robert Sward: It sounds more natural, that- that's what I was looking for there, more natural. I'm not sure that I'm reading

00:42:03.460 - 00:42:07.310

the current version. Morton Marcus: Oh, okay. Robert Sward: You may have the more current version. Morton Marcus: I see.

00:42:07.310 - 00:42:15.860

Robert Sward: But there was a revision. Morton Marcus: And what do you have there? Robert Sward: I have here ‘‘please, dad, no philosophy.‘‘ Morton Marcus: Yeah. And which do you- now, which do you like

00:42:15.860 - 00:42:24.520

better? [Cross talk] the first version? [Laughter] Robert Sward: I said, I'm still revising. The version I sent you sounds better to my ear right now. Morton Marcus: Well, what's so interesting is what it's saying

00:42:24.520 - 00:42:40.210

like "enough," you know? And instead of saying, “God no philosophizing,“ this says it without saying it, and it- but it really gives personality to the,- to the speaker so I said, “oh, isn't that interesting he changed that, I wonder why he

00:42:40.210 - 00:42:50.770

changed that.“ But as you say, I may have the more current version. Robert Sward: Now thinking about it, you have, you have the later version. And what I'm going to do is go back, I'm gonna go back

00:42:50.770 - 00:42:59.350

and- and the version you've got is the one I'm going to keep, I‘m changing positions twice on this, but- but- but- Morton Marcus: There's nothing new about that for any writer right?

00:42:59.380 - 00:43:05.750

Robert Sward: You hear- Read about- Morton Marcus: Endless. Robert Sward: You hear about it on the radio. [Laughter] Morton Marcus: I just did- I just went through a book with my

00:43:05.750 - 00:43:21.890

editor. We were on the phone for six hours a day for virtually two weeks and going through every single line. I mean, it was just unbelievable, it was a great, great experience. "But why did you do that?" And I'm rethinking everything, you know,

00:43:22.100 - 00:43:33.000

in terms of his questions. So you people out there, revision is endless, is endless. And things can sound to you one day, one way and another day, another. Robert Sward: And the book comes out, then the book appears and

00:43:33.000 - 00:43:42.210

you open it up, this is wonderful, this is marvelous, you're overjoyed, and you [cross talk] start revising the very book that's in your hand, Morton Marcus: People cannot believe that we do that. They

00:43:42.210 - 00:43:56.820

cannot believe that we do that but we do it all the time. And things get revised and poems you may have written 20 years ago, you know, it's a- In fact, this book I'm talking about, Selected Poems, so I'm looking at, you know, works that I did a long

00:43:56.820 - 00:44:11.220

time, I said, “oh, man, no, that's all wrong and I don't even need those four or five lines,“ you know, so it really is fascinating. Um, that's- that's great. Let's go on, let's read another one. Let's hear more about the irrepressible

00:44:11.220 - 00:44:25.770

father. Robert Sward: It‘s called, ‘‘He takes me back as a patient ‘‘ Various things come up working with these meditations on my dad. I mean, things I hadn't thought about for many, many

00:44:25.770 - 00:44:35.420

years. Morton Marcus: That was a question I was going to ask because it seems that there are details remembered in here. And is this really a way of, you know, bringing your dad back,

00:44:35.420 - 00:44:46.320

and your relationship with him back? Robert Sward: It is, it was an incomplete relationship, and in a way I feel to some extent, I'm recreating him. I mean, this is him, but it's also taken on a life of its own. You know, this

00:44:46.320 - 00:44:52.180

is- this is him and it's not him, this is me, and it's not me. Morton Marcus: Right. Robert Sward: It exists both ways. But one thing that did

00:44:52.180 - 00:45:07.090

happen was, I was as patient, I was 11,12,13 years old and he made me this pair of arch supports, just sent me on my way and I diligently wore them with my five eyelet shoes and made no progress. And he looked at my feet, looked at the arch

00:45:07.090 - 00:45:20.780

supports, and fired me, you‘re no longer- no longer my patients. So I'm taken back as a patient which hence the title HE TAKES ME BACK AS A PATIENT So there they are on a pedestal, your feet under lights, more

00:45:20.780 - 00:45:35.030

than they deserve. ‘‘You and those primadonnas, villains," he points a finger. "With normal people the socks come off and the feet talk but not these two, wise guys, too good for diagnosis huh? Too good for our supports, is that it? Your

00:45:35.030 - 00:45:48.110

x-rays show nothing, ultrasound, nothing, this is your last chance, this is it. Weak ankles, feet out of alignment, but there's something else, I see it in your posture, you're holding back, you and those feet of yours. Slippery feet, meshuge

00:45:48.110 - 00:45:58.910

feet, feet like no one else in the family. What's going on in there?‘‘ He asks. ‘‘Wake up, tell you what, we're gonna have you walk around the office. That's it. Head erect, back straight. No, no, look at you, look at you! You call that

00:45:58.910 - 00:46:14.600

walking? On the ground, on the ground, dreamer. You're fired. Your mother was right, you and those feet of yours are two of a kind.‘‘ Morton Marcus: Fathers will never appreciate us. That was

00:46:14.600 - 00:46:31.130

one of my favorite poems that you read that night. I really- I really, really liked it. You know it- was so interesting is of course to any listener he sounds like the ideal father, he's so humorous, and he's thinking, you know, he's

00:46:31.130 - 00:46:45.350

thinking on his feet, if you will. [Laughter] This is getting terrible, Robert. But- and yet, you can also see and, as you said, how difficult he must have been to live with, must have been almost impossible.

00:46:45.960 - 00:46:57.450

Robert Sward: A high standard. Actually, I'm thinking at this point of that poem of yours about the ‘‘Baal Shem Tov‘‘ who says these these amazing things. There's humor there, there's music there, there'- there's wisdom, you wonder where it's

00:46:57.450 - 00:47:09.690

coming from? Would you read that? I'd like to- I'd like to hear that. I was looking it over today. Morton Marcus: Well, I'd rather hear you actually, um, it's very nice of you to ask. I- maybe I'll just read part of it to

00:47:09.690 - 00:47:24.840

give the flavor of where your work is coming from. Robert Sward: Right. Morton Marcus: Because it is a- this- this is to me an influence, these stories of the Hasidim and- and the people out

00:47:24.840 - 00:47:44.310

there and I'll just read one of these, maybe just the first one where you just- where all of this comes from. And it comes from a very deep place where you and I really get the sense of dialogue and get the sense of story and humor and wisdom. And

00:47:44.850 - 00:47:55.840

so, out there, listen to Robert Sward as you're listening to me here because it's part of the same tradition Robert Sward: Same tradition. Morton Marcus: Okay. The Baal Shem was a great- he was

00:47:55.840 - 00:48:06.220

actually the originator of Hasidim- of the Hasids. And there are incredible stories about him, but I made up stories of my own. Alright, and I hope I can even see it here. So here we go:

00:48:07.240 - 00:48:19.270

[THREE LOST TALES OF THE BAAL SHEM TOV] Who has not heard of the Baal Shem Tov? Each of his tales is a leaf on the tree of his legend, a tree that shines like a shaft of flame in the shadowy garden of our imagination.

00:48:20.680 - 00:48:34.690

"Forget about how many angels dance on the point of a pin, or how many souls slide through the eye of a needle. Those problems are the syllogisms of tailors‘‘ he said. "The only question worth asking is whether the dead push us from the earth through

00:48:34.690 - 00:48:47.230

the tree so they can fly once more from the wings of the leaves. Or whether we're dragged upwards from the stones until like birds we sing the praises of God from the highest branches."

00:48:48.580 - 00:49:02.530

When asked in Berditchev, whether he thought we were shoved from below or tugged from above, he answered, ‘‘From above, it's God's way of glorifying the dead.‘‘ Another time, in Kamenetz, he answered, ‘‘From below, it's the

00:49:02.530 - 00:49:15.340

dead's way of glorifying us.‘‘ However, in Horodenko, he replied to a feeble old man leaning on his grandson, ‘‘Both, it's God's way of glorifying the dead and their way of glorifying us.‘‘

00:49:16.140 - 00:49:29.340

But when he was asked this same question in Sadigór by a drayman whose wife had recently died, he said, ‘‘Neither. What makes you think our lives are dependent on the whims of God or the dead and have nothing to do with us?‘‘

00:49:29.030 - 00:49:43.670

‘‘How can this be‘‘ cried Reb Tzvi-Hersh Sofier, the Baal Shem‘s lifelong scribe, as the crowd in the Sadigor marketplace stood astonished. "Two years ago you answered 'From above,' Last year 'From below.' Two months ago, 'Both.' And now, 'None of

00:49:43.670 - 00:49:54.530

the three.' The Baal Sham turned to his scribe, nodded toward the drayman's sad eyes and dishevelled clothes and said shaking his head ‘‘Tzvi, Tzvi!‘‘

00:49:55.170 - 00:50:09.840

Later that day, when they were walking alone on the road to Polnoye, the frustrated scribe trotted around his master and continued to upbraid him. "How could you say that God determines our lives in one place, that the dead do in

00:50:09.840 - 00:50:21.300

another, that both do in a third, and that we do it a fourth?" The master shrugged. "Tzvi, you never look to see whom I am talking to. For each of the four there was a correct answer that

00:50:21.300 - 00:50:40.630

wasn't correct for the others. Besides, I'm sure you think that at least one of the answers was right. So why quibble?" And that was just my picture of a man who is larger than any category you try to fit him into, you know, and he was

00:50:40.630 - 00:50:59.410

amazing. There's one story about him that he wrestled the devil and if he could defeat the devil in a wrestling match, you get rid of evil. He defeated him, decided to let him go because what would the world be without good and evil? Anyway, please

00:50:59.410 - 00:51:07.570

read on. Robert Sward: We have common ancestors. Morton Marcus: Yes. Robert Sward: WEDDING #2

00:51:07.570 - 00:51:20.070

I. TEMPLE PARKING LOT (short- fairly short poem in three short sections) My father says: "So, my son is getting married!" “For the second time Dad.“ "Yes, but weddings heal. The Talmud says a

00:51:20.070 - 00:51:35.490

wedding frees bride and groom from all past transgressions. A wedding fixes all that's broken." “You mean one marriage can fix another?“ I asked parking the old Plymouth. He grabs my arm, “a happy marriage gives eternal dispensation." His

00:51:35.490 - 00:51:51.930

eyes gather light, "The Talmud says intercourse is one-sixtieth the pleasure of paradise." I'm wearing five-eyelet Florsheims with new arch supports. "This is good." He waves to friends. "Just don't fumble the goblet." “The goblet?“ "The goblet you

00:51:51.930 - 00:52:02.710

break after the vows. This time use your heel. Smash it on the first try. People'll be watching. Miss it and they'll laugh- like last time. Don't fumble the goblet." II. TEMPLE STEPS

00:52:03.770 - 00:52:20.540

Leads with his chin. Visible and invisible. Chin trembling, his face shining. "I was an orphan." “Yes, I know, dad.“ "Did you know an orphan's dead parents are able to attend the wedding?" “But dad, I'm not an orphan.“ "Well, I just want you to know

00:52:20.540 - 00:52:34.340

if you were, we'd come anyway. You know, your grandparents will be there too." “How will they manage that?“ "What are you asking? They'll manage. These are your grandparents: Grandpa Hyman. Grandmother Bessie. It's a tradition, the Talmud says if

00:52:34.340 - 00:52:47.010

they have their bodies, they'll come with their bodies." “But they're dead.“ "So, they'll come without." III. TEMPLE WASHROOM “When a man unites with his wife, God is between them.“ I'm

00:52:47.010 - 00:53:03.540

telling you “lovemaking is ceremony.“ The Talmud says, “You, you're not holy, but your wife is. With her you go to a world outside the world." “So?“ "So wash your hands before not after. Wash for the pure and holy bride." “But what about

00:53:03.570 - 00:53:16.500

hygiene?“ "How did I bring you up? Shame on you. The socks come off and you make love.“ The Talmud says, “And you make her happy.“ Schtepp. Schtepp. “Do you understand? Forget hygiene! This is the pure and holy bride."

00:53:17.620 - 00:53:32.500

Morton Marcus: Yeah, great stuff, really terrific stuff. And I think, you know, you can hear, I hope the readers out there can hear, what I read in relation to what you read, and they really have tremendous similarity, they really come out

00:53:32.500 - 00:53:41.860

of the same traditions. Robert Sward: It's really interesting. Hearing you read that in context, I mean it's like a dialogue that I'm having in these poems with my- with my father. But then there's also

00:53:41.860 - 00:53:54.220

this dialogue between your poems and mine and between the “Baal Shem Tov“ and “The Podiatrist“. Morton Marcus: Right. Now, I know you're going to be teaching a class; I like to talk about that as we are almost finished

00:53:54.220 - 00:54:02.970

here. But you're going to be doing the poetry of William Blake, which I think is very interesting also, because a lot of Blakean ideas have been spattered here by your father. Robert Sward: It's amazing. Yes. [cross talk]

00:54:02.460 - 00:54:10.850

Morton Marcus: Can you tell us a little bit about it, when it's going to start and maybe one or two of the things you're going to do. Robert Sward: Well, it's it's called "Writers Study Writers,"

00:54:10.850 - 00:54:27.260

it's the seventh in a series, and it's basically an informal workshop that's set up for people who are really interested in writing, but also in reading classic authors closely in the company of other- other writers. You know, so we have

00:54:27.260 - 00:54:43.700

professional people, we have doctors, lawyers, we have quite a- quite a cross section, including housewives, anyone you name it, these people turn up at this workshop and they're also very serious writers and quite, you know, quite advanced. Were-

00:54:43.730 - 00:54:59.840

recommended reading includes "Blake: A Biography" by Peter Ackroyd, which I think is one of the best biographies I've ever read. If people have questions about it, they can simply call me 426-5247 again, 426-5247.

00:55:00.230 - 00:55:12.960

Morton Marcus: If they're out of the area, is there another number they can call? Robert Sward: Five- Let's see, (831) 426-5247, "The Poetry of Blake," February 9th, that's Friday night 7 to 10pm. And then

00:55:12.960 - 00:55:22.670

Saturday morning from 10am and it goes until 4:30 in the afternoon. Morton Marcus: Will this be one weekend only? Robert Sward: One weekend only. We'll probably have a second-

00:55:22.670 - 00:55:41.990

probably have a second, a follow up on Blake's poems. Morton Marcus: Okay. And when is the meeting going to be? Robert Sward: Again, Friday, February 9, 7 to 10pm. And then Saturday 10am to 4:30. And the cost of it, I think it's 135.

00:55:42.530 - 00:55:47.030

Which includes- Morton Marcus: We don't talk about- [cross-talk] Robert Sward: Right. That's right. This is- Morton Marcus: They can call you up for all

00:55:47.030 - 00:55:57.630

Robert Sward: Call me up for all the information. Morton Marcus: And that is Robert Swart, our guests- our guest tonight. Robert, we believe it or not come to the end of this very fast hour. How about- about one more little gem

00:55:57.630 - 00:56:12.780

from "Rosicrucian in the Basement"? And we have been talking with Robert Sward who will be leading the poetry of William Blake. And I hope that you appreciate these poems as much as I certainly do. And people who have heard them being

00:56:12.780 - 00:56:20.960

read, they‘re an ongoing sequence that Robert has been doing. How long have you been actually doing these poems? Robert Sward: It's about 12 months on this particular sequence stuff.

00:56:22.430 - 00:56:35.720

ROSIE CROSS FATHER Mother: “Yes, he still believes, imagine American Jews when they die roll underground for three days to reach the Holy Land, he believes that. “We're standing at the Rosicrucian minibar

00:56:35.720 - 00:56:49.490

listening, father with thick dark rimmed glasses, blue denim shirt, bristly white mustache, and domed forehead. ‘‘Your stepmother's on the phone with her sister‘‘ he says. ‘‘He thinks they can look into the invisible‘‘ she says from above.

00:56:49.820 - 00:57:03.740

‘‘He thinks he can peek into the other world, like Gods out there waiting for him. Meshuge.‘‘ She starts the dishwasher. “As above so below“ he says. ‘‘I'm not so sure‘‘ I say. ‘‘Listen, everyone's got some stink,‘‘ he says, grabbing my arm ‘‘you

00:57:03.740 - 00:57:17.420

think you're immune?‘‘ I shake my head. ‘‘To look for God is to find him‘‘ he says. ‘‘If God lived on earth,‘‘ she says, ‘‘people would knock out all his windows.‘‘ ‘‘Kibitzer‘‘ he yells back, ‘‘gotten you shiksa brain.‘‘ Father turns to his

00:57:17.420 - 00:57:33.770

apparatus. ‘‘Visual scriptures‘‘ he calls them, tinctures and elixirs, the silvery dark and the silvery white. We have the here and now, pay our respects to the invisible. ‘‘Your soul is a soul,‘‘ he says turning to me, ‘‘but body is a soul too, as the

00:57:33.770 - 00:57:49.160

poet says, 'We are the bees of the golden hive of the invisible'.‘‘ "What poet, dad? ‘‘The poet, goddamnit, the poet‘‘ he yells. He‘s 71, paler these days, showing more forehead, thinning down. We live in darkness and it looks like

00:57:49.160 - 00:57:57.260

light. Now listen to me. [cut off]