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Morton Marcus: Good afternoon everybody. This is Morton Marcus on The Poetry Show on a bright sunny day in Santa Cruz and in the background we are listening to Bessie Smith singing her most famous recording, which is "Careless Love." And that

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introduces this week's guest, the poet Lucille Clifton, who has been living in Santa Cruz now for around a year, isn't it Lucille? Okay and Lucille will be with us talking about her poetry and her

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children's books. And a lot of people do not know that Lucille has been living amongst us, but by the time this program is over, I think they will see that we have a rather extraordinary and life-loving, vivacious lady in our midst now in the literary

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world. Before I do that, I want to thank everyone down at Pacific Grove for the wonderful reception that you gave Claire Braz-Valentine and myself last week. And it was also great to know that you're listening to The Poetry Show and that we are

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being heard bright and clear by a lot of poetry fans in and around the bay. But right now, we're going to take Bessie and have her fade out, and we are going to begin our talk with Lucille Clifton, which will be punctuated by poems and maybe

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even a little bit of children's literature. Lucille, welcome to the show. Lucille Clifton: Thank you, thanks, Mort. Morton Marcus: And I wonder if you would tell us something

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about your past before you arrived in Santa Cruz? Lucille Clifton: Well, I came here from Baltimore, Maryland. I lived in Maryland for seventeen years. So I'm originally from Buffalo, New York. And in Maryland, among other things, I

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was Poet Laureate of Maryland for eight years. Morton Marcus: Now, that sounds interesting. Lucille Clifton: It sounds more interesting than it is. Morton Marcus: Well, why don't you tell us something about

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that. Lucille Clifton: Well, some of the- several states have poets laureate. I was appointed by the governor and by and large poets laureate in this country are hobbyists, but some states do,

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in fact, have people who try to think of themselves as in the, in the contemporary world of contemporary poetry. Gwendolyn Brooks is Poet Laureate of Illinois. Richard Eberhart's Poet Laureate of New Hampshire, William Stafford, Poet Laureate

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of Oregon and I like to think that- in- I was in that company as Poet Laureate of Maryland. Though one of the things I did say when I was appointed, first of all, is that I don't do supermarket openings, I don't do official poetry. And I think it

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was rather funny that when I was appointed by the governor, the governor's secretary called and I asked if the governor had ever read anything I'd written, and she assured me that he had not, which I thought was a good sign about the whole business.

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Morton Marcus: How did you get- how did you get chosen to be the poet laureate? Lucille Clifton: Well, from what I understand, an anonymous committee of people who supposedly were qualified to

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judge but we're not qual- we're not qualified to be Poet Laureate -- I'm not sure what that means -- some of the people were from Johns Hopkins I know that, which is a university in Baltimore, looked at the poets who were in Maryland and came up

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with me. I was amazed the Poet Laureate before myself had been a man who wore laurel leaves in his hair and who went around declaiming a lot of very strange poetry, so I was really amazed at that. I think my first reaction, in fact, was to laugh

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hysterically on the telephone. And then when I could see they were serious, I said, "I'll ge back to you," which I don't thi k they expected to hear. And I called two people, one w s Josephine Jacobson, who is a outstanding poet,

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distinguished poet in Maryland and the other was Gwendoly Brooks, who was Poet Laureate o Illinois. And I asked them bot what they thought, and they bot said, "Why not." So I then sa d, why not" and called them b

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Morton Marcus: Now what went along with these honors? I mean, did you have to give readings or certainly- Did you get, let's say, a stipend every year? Lucille Clifton: Well, Maryland is one of the few states that

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does, in fact, have a stipend for the Poet Laureate, but I never collected it. Morton Marcus: Oh. Lucille Clifton: Because in order to receive it, you have to

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go before something akin to a Board of Public Works and to justify receiving it and since I had no reason- I saw no reason to justify poetry before a Board of Public Works, I never received the stipend.

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Morton Marcus: What are some of the things that occurred, let's say, while you were- Lucille Clifton: I didn't have to do anything. I thought- I first of all defined it as trying by my work to bring some

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distinction to the state of Maryland. But among the things that did happen, I visited most of the state of Maryland, all parts of the state, including some parts I must say that the black woman Lucille Clifton would not have been terribly

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welcome. However, the Poet Laureate of Maryland was welcomed, so that was an interesting business. And then I also sponsored some poetry contests, senior citizens' contests, contests for children in schools and that sort of

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thing. Morton Marcus: Well, Lucille, the best way for our listeners to get to know who Lucille Clifton is for you to read some poems. Now, I know you've not brought poems from your books,

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but you have a new manuscript that you have with you so is there any chance that there's that wonderful poem on hips? Lucille Clifton: Well, you know I- that is not there but I do think I remember that poem and certainly hearing Bessie Smith I

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think I can recite that. I have to preface it by saying Bessie Smith is such a wonderful, wonderful human woman. And one of- a quote from Bessie Smith is gen- is one of my two favorite quotes. I have to tell you my two favorite quotes. The first

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one is from Flip Wilson as Geraldine, actually, and the quote is, Geraldine said once, "Even when I do things I don't want to do I only do them because I want to." And I think I live by that. And Bessie Smith once was- what someone said to

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her, "Bessie, you're big." And Bessie Smith replied, "Honey, I was not built for speed, I was built for comfort." And I think that as a larger lady, I think that's one of the things I live by also. But I have a poem, which is probably my most

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universal poem, or at least I have been led to believe so and it's a celebration, it's called: HOMAGE TO MY HIPS These hips are big hips. They need space to move around in.

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They don't fit into little petty places. These hips are free hips. They don't like to be held back. These hips have never been enslaved. They go where they want to go. They do what they want to do. These hips are mighty hips. These hips are

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magic hips. I have known them to put a spell on a man and spin him like a top! I think that's a poem that Bessie would relate to. Morton Marcus: I think so, and a lot of other people. [crosstalk]

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Let me tell you an addendum to the reading of that poem to the Chinese poets during that private- Morton Marcus: -literary meeting that we had with them. When I Lucille Clifton: Oh, yes-

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talk with [unidentified] later on, privately, a few days later, late at night over, believe it or not, a Chinese dinner, she said to me, "Now that poem, 'Homage to My Hips' that Miss Clifton read would never be allowed in China."

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Morton Marcus: That it was fa too sexual, far too much a cel Lucille Clifton: Oh, I'm sure. bration of the body and being and that the Chinese audi nce, not the poets, the audi nces are not ready to acce

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t it and she was not talk ng about government. So just a poem like this, which I'm sure delighted readers, list ners, I could hear all of the ittle Ah's and Oh's going on a l over the bay as I was hearing ou read in my special antenna t

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at I have here, as somethin that would shock people i China. You see this wonderful c ltural difference thats going on. Lucille Clifton: It's very interesting because there was a

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time of course when a poem like that would not be cons Morton Marcus: I'm gonna rebut this, don't worry out ther dered particularly seri usly, here. I have in readings I have several poems, and I do a little section that I call, "R

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ading About Body Parts." And t ere was a time when I think poetry, which translates lmost to the male poetry , say that this is not important, th se are not important subjec s for poetry. Well, one of the t ings I think a black poet an

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a black woman poet is about is redefining. In readings, I ten to say, well, I think that, t at men do not find these subject , the subject of body parts, in eresting, because they do not have many interesting body p rts. Whereas I think, I th

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folks nk- Lucille Clifton: But I think that the whole subject matte Morton Marcus: I think that that's it. It's not necessarily

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and the whole range of possi ility in poetry in the last, how long, twenty years maybe, h s just blossomed. the male establishment, though they were the power structure. It's the establishment per se.

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Lucille Clifton: Yes. Morton Marcus: But let me just add that I also in every one of my poetry readings have a section in which I read my body part poems.

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Lucille Clifton: Well, that's great, because it is, you know, it is wonderful now that we celebrate even- Morton Marcus: We're celebrating. Lucille Clifton: And even large size, which has not always been

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so, certainly. Morton Marcus: Well, the two people in this room right now represent- You know, the other thing is that it's just the word celebration, which was so absent from Anglo-American poetry

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because -- and that might be well Anglo-White poetry -- the sense of poetry did have to be very, very serious, very intellectual, and the celebration of one's basic humanity, one's body and the world around it, the only person

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we were hearing it from, let's say, in the white world was people like Dylan Thomas, and all the other poetries that did celebrate it, the Latino poetries and things like that, were just not at our disposal.

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Lucille Clifton: And how foolish to think that that's not serious? Morton Marcus: Yes, exactly. Lucille Clifton: Because of course I have fun in poetry a

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lot. I like to have fun in poetry, but I am tremendously, I am lifely serious. Morton Marcus: And in a very roundabout way, I met a teacher who had really changed my life around from being a city hood to

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doing something that has been rewarding for my life anyway, and that's writing. And I hadn't seen him since I was fourteen, and for some reason he drifted through this town two years ago, believe it or not, and I've been looking for him everywhere and

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couldn't find him. And we re-struck up our friendship. He actually remembered me, which was a shock to me. And he wanted to see all my books of poetry. He was very interested in all this, and he read my poetry and would never comment on it. And

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so before he was about to leave the area, which was around two months later, I said, "You know, you never said a word about my poetry. What do you think about my poetry?" And so he said, "Well, it's not really poetry is it?"

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Lucille Clifton: Well- [Laughs} Morton Marcus: And again, you see, he was talking from that notion- Lucille Clifton: Sure, sure.

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Morton Marcus: -of what poetry was in the 40s and early 50s and- Lucille Clifton: Sure. Now, I hear that kind of thing all the time because I have- I purposely, for instance, use a

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simple language. I don't use it because it's the only language I'm aware of, I use it because I choose to. I purposely write about themes that are people themes. My poetry is full of people, it tends to be full of me, but it's certainly full of

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humans. And I get asked all the time things like, "When are you going to write something serious? When are you going to write something hard? Do you always feel that you're going to be bound by black poetry? Will you always be a black poet?" The

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answer to that is I assume, I can only assume, but I assume- Morton Marcus: There'll have to be different types of transplants. Lucille Clifton: I'm not sure about what could happen but you

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hear that sort of thing all the time. Morton Marcus: Well, let's hear some more Lucille Clifton poems. Lucille Clifton: Well, I have some poems that were just written, as a matter of fact. I do a lot of poetry readings

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across the country. And I can tend to- tell when I'm a little bit tired because I first of all, I start getting silly, and I also start seeing things with several pairs of eyes. And recently I did the last poetry reading until September and this

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was in -- or the last one away from California -- this was in a little town in upstate New York. And by and large I'd say 95% of the poetry readings that I do are to audiences which have very few or no third world people. And so, this poetry reading I

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was thinking, I looked around and there weren't any third world people and I started seeing things and hearing things that people were saying and several- and diffused through being a black American, as well as being a black American woman

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poet. And so I wrote a series of poems and it's six poems, and the whole thing is called: IN WHITE AMERICA, which is in apology to Martin Duberman, and I'd like to read the six of them. One:

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I come to read them poems, a fancy trick I do, like juggling with balls of light. I stand, a dark spinner, in the Grange Hall in the library in the smaller conference room and toss and catch as if by magic, my eyes bright, my mouth smiling, my

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singed hands burning. Generally people will also give you something of the history of their town, and the town I was in was a town of five hundred people. And when you hear histories you think a lot of

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different things. This is number two: THE HISTORY Eighteenhundreds in this town, fourteen long-houses were destroyed by not these people here. Not these people burned

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the crops and chopped down all the peach trees, not these people. These people preserve peaches, even now. You also tend to receive a tour of the town, which I love. I lov to go to see places, see wha America looks like. And thi

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poem is a quote except for th last line. It's called THE TOUR And then of course, you'd see the place you're going to read, "This was a female school. My mother's mother graduated second

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in this instance it was in a church. This is four in her class. They were taught embroidery, and chenille, an filigree, ladies' learning. Yes we have a liberal history here. Smiling, she pats my darky han .

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THE HALL In this hall, dark women scrub the aisles between the pews on their knees. They could not rise to worship. In this hall, dark women, my sisters and mothers- Though I speak with the tongues

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of men and of angels and have not charity- In this hall, dark women, my sisters and mothers, I stand and let the church say, let the church say, let the church say: Amen. Five:

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THE READING I look into none of my faces and do the best I can. The human hair between us stretches but does not break. I slide myself along it and love them. I love them all.

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And six, the last of the series. It is late in white America. I stand in the light of the 7-11 looking out toward the church and for a moment only I feel the reverberation of myself in white America, a black cat in the

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belfry, hanging and ringing. Morton Marcus: That's a great last image. Lucille Clifton: I tell you what I like about that poem is I have a poem with the 7-11 in it.

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Morton Marcus: That does bring me -- even that last image though -- to a question that I had before you started reading the poem, which is that you say you read mostly to white audiences, you don't read for third-world audiences-

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Lucille Clifton: I haven't that often, I have not been invited that often. Morton Marcus: Interesting. Do you feel that the recognition that you've received, has in some way isolated you from one,

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the environment that you brought your poetry from, you got your poetry from, and maybe that you would like to really share it with you? Lucille Clifton: Well, I'm not sure. I have- in terms of not

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reading to that many audiences that are predominantly black, it's because they don't have the money. And they don't realize, I think, that I often will read to an audience of color for less, because I wish to- this is an audience that I read for, that I

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write for and with, and to as well. I'm not sure that I feel isolated from them but I must say, you know, I don't know, I don't understand the strange and interesting world of critics. I do know that I, for instance, was in "Who's Who in America"

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before I was in "Who'sWho in Black America," and I'm not sure why. And things like that I don't get too hung up about. I am known probably in the black community better as a children's author because I use such a particular kind of language in

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many of my- I've written twenty children's books, and the language tends to be very much spoken English, spoken by an urban black kid, and so I think they know that better. Morton Marcus: You were born in Buffalo, New York.

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Lucille Clifton: I was born in Buffalo, New York. Morton Marcus: So is that sort of the speech pattern that you follow? Let's say, industrial, New York City? Lucille Clifton: Pretty much, pretty much a city Upper New

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York State, which is different from, say, a city California, you know, and different from the South- Morton Marcus: In many ways. Lucille Clifton: The language across the country is so

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interesting, and one of the things I see in young writers is they don't realize the range of American languages. Morton Marcus: Well, one of the things that's happening is that Jack Gilbert said this, in fact in a program that Joe and I

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recorded that was presented a couple of weeks ago that people in the audience may have heard. But one of the things he said during that interview is that so much of American writing, and he was speaking about poetry in particular, sounds like

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translations. Morton Marcus: That no one's listening to the language anym re. They've all been reading Ner da and they've been reading H idobro and Cavafy and all these people, and they're not- th

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y're not listening to their own language Lucille Clifton: Mhm. Lucille Clifton: Exactly. I find that students often they're aware of those poets more than they're aware of, say, Carolyn

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Kizer, then the poets in our own country. And then young people, I think when they're writing, they listen to too much television, and I like televisio too Morton Marcus: Homogenized language and homogenized life

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and situations. Lucille Clifton: So it really is not the way people really talk, it's sort of script-talk which is different. Morton Marcus: Yeah, very true. Well, I want you to get into

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another poem, but I want you to tell us how you came from Maryland to be here in Santa Cruz. Lucille Clifton: Well, I gave a reading about in 19- I think 84, early '84 at the San Jose Poetry Center. And while there -- it's

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odd and interesting -- while there, one of the things they wanted to do was show me the area and so somebody said, "Lucille, you like the 60s; let me show you Santa Cruz." So I was driven through Santa Cruz and I thought, "My kind of

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town," but I had no idea of ever coming to the West Coast. I'm one of those people who believed that if you get too far away from New York Times, your head goes crazy. So I had no idea of coming here. And I received a call about a position at UCSC.

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And I was not tremendously eager to apply for it, but my family was at that time, my husband who never got here because he died, and I have six adult children. And I thought, "Well, all right, if they all think it's an interesting idea, and we can go

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West, I'll try for it." And I did apply, and after his death I did come out, and I'm now at UCSC. Morton Marcus: What are you teaching at UCSC? Lucille Clifton: I'm a professor of literature and creative

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writing, and I teach advanced poetry workshops, advanced fiction workshops, children's literature in- which really deals with race, racism, ageism, and sexism in children's books and picture books primarily, and black women writers. Hence very

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interesting. Morton Marcus: Have you been on Saturday's Child or know anything about Saturday's Child? Lucille Clifton: No, I think some work of mine has been on

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Saturday's Child but I have not- Morton Marcus: I ought to get you in touch with Joanne King because she really does a wonderful job and teaches children's literature out at Cabrillo, which is a real

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thriving course out there. Lucille Clifton: I understand s , I don't think- I think UCSC h I guess what you're talking about is the assumption of s not had children's l terature taught very often. A

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d the angle from which I a proach it is an angle that is i interesting because we talk a out books, which are Newbery, C ldecott Honor Books and w ll, these are well-known books and it's a whole new idea t the students that there could

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even be things like racism in t ese books, or sexism in these ooks. And they think that I'm a real iconoclast, for ins ance, when I talk about sexism i "The Giving Tree," which is one of the most popular children's books going now.

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Well in lots of things. "The Giving Tree," is a book about a tree, a female tree, the tree s always called she, which giv s up its life, really, for thi young man who asks, and I hav students who talk tell me tha that's all about wonder

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ul love, and love is like that. nd wouldn't you give up your l fe for your children? And my rep y is always, I would, in fact, b male-female roles, and- t I would rather they didn't sk me to do it, which is a who

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e different thing. And it's als about ecology, that the natura Morton Marcus: The Chernobyl rejection. world exists for humans to u e and I'm not sure that's true I don't think the natural worl would agree to that. I think ri

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ht now we're seeing the natur l world reject a lot of humans. Lucille Clifton: Yes, indeed. Morton Marcus: That's interesting. It's also a situation in the way blacks are portrayed in Hollywood films.

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They are always willing to give up their life. Lucille Clifton: Oh, that's one of the things that America loves best, a black person dying for a white one, especially a young white one. That's oh wow, how great, how noble. I urge us to

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have- I urge that we have the right to be as big a scoundrel and fool as anybody else. Morton Marcus: I think I'd agree with that. I'm all for scoundrels and fools, whatever race.

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Lucille Clifton: Whatever race. Morton Marcus: Anyway, how about another poem, Lucille? Lucille Clifton: Well, the thing about coming to Santa Cruz reminds me that I have a poem about the Atlantic Ocean,

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written because I saw the Pacific and I'm very fond of the Pacific Ocean. It is a great ocean. When I first came here, I was trying to explain to someone why I liked the Pacific so much, and they were trying to explain to me that the Atlantic is

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really the best ocean. And it was hard to explain how the Atlantic would seem to someone of my complexion, though, as I think that there are people who are oriental who would find interesting feelings about the Pacific but anyway, this poem's

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about the Atlantic. It starts with a church song: [ATLANTIC IS A SEA OF BONES] "Them bones, them bones will rise again. Them bones, them bones will walk again, them bones, them bones will talk

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again. Now, hear the word of the Lord." Atlantic is a sea of bones, my bones. My elegant Afrikans connecting Whydah and New York, a bridge of ivory. Seabed, they call it, in its arms my early mothers sleep. Some women left with babies in

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their arms, some women wept and threw the babies in. Maternal armies pace the Atlantic floor. I call my name into the roar of surf and something awful answers. Morton Marcus: There's so many echoes of so many things. I was

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thinking of a Mike Harper poem about a bay, I think it's in South Carolina, and all he sees in that bay is where a whole Lucille Clifton: There's always that dual- I was thinking the ship went down with every slave on board.

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only official poem I wrote in Maryland as Poet Laureate was a poem- was very difficult. It's a poem I'm not ashamed of, but I had a difficult time writing it because in Maryland, the theme, one of the themes was our happy colonial days. And as I say, I

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hadn't had that many happy colonial days. So it was really hard to do that. I wrote a little poem for myself in that time, and it was that- the poem is called: WHY PEOPLE GET MAD AT ME SOMETIME

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And I think it goes, "They asked me to remember but they want me to remember their memories, and I keep on remembering mine." That's something that people are thinking about. Morton Marcus: It's- that's the whole right there in what sounds

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like an epigram, is the whole change in what's going on in the study of history in this country in the last twenty odd years. Lucille Clifton: I am glad- a good change. Morton Marcus: Good change, good change. I want to hear another

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poem before we get to the half hour. Lucille Clifton: All right then, well, this is another sort of West Coast originated poem. It's because I made a friend here whose name is Lucille Hall and she's super. And I was visiting

00:27:19.150 - 00:27:30.820

her house once and we were looking at her photo album -- I'm very nosy and I love old photographs -- and I noticed that she had a Shirley Temple cup. And we started talking about Shirley Temple and how we were great Shirley- our mothers

00:27:30.820 - 00:27:44.140

had done this for us, to us, with us. And we thought it was funny because Lucille is Chinese and I'm black. And so this is called: ALBUM, for Lucile Chan Hall. And what it is really is four

00:27:44.140 - 00:28:10.300

photographs in a photograph album. I. It is 1939. Our mothers are turning our hair around rags. Our mothers have filled our Shirley Temple cups. We drink it II. 1939 again. Our Shirley Temple curls. Shirley yellow,

00:28:05.470 - 00:28:31.930

all. Shirley black. Our colors are fading. Later we had to learn ourselves back across two oceans into bound feet and nappy hair. III. 1958 and 9. We have dropped daughters, African and

00:28:31.930 - 00:31:46.630

Chinese. We think they will be beautiful, we think they will become themselves. IV. It is 1985. She is, she is, they are. [Recorded music playing]:

00:32:08.710 - 00:32:21.580

Morton Marcus: We're back with the Poetry Show and we're going to let Bessie sing behind us. And that sounds well, not quite [unidentified] but and I don't know who the piano player is, but we're gonna get back to our interview with Lucille Clifton

00:32:21.820 - 00:32:38.740

very, very shortly. And I hope you've been enjoying it. If you've just tuned in, stay tuned, we have a wonderful show today and Lucille has read some wonderful poems already, so stay tuned for that. But first, let me make some announcements.

00:32:38.980 - 00:33:00.100

First of all, tonight at the Portofino Cafe downstairs at 620 Lighthouse Avenue, Pacific Grove at 7pm- but I believe that that is wrong- I believe the time is really 7:30. Austin James, novelist, poet, and teacher at Monterey Peninsula College and

00:33:00.100 - 00:33:19.060

Naomi Clark, poet and teacher at San Jose State and the organizer of the San Jose State Poetry Center, will be giving a reading, that is tonight at 7:30. Austin James, Naomi Clark at the Portofino Cafe, 620 Lighthouse Avenue, Pacific

00:33:19.060 - 00:33:35.230

Grove. That is where Claire Braz-Valentine and I read last week and it is just a wonderful crowd there and wonderful audience, and I would urge everyone in the area and even people from Santa Cruz to go down and listen to these two

00:33:35.230 - 00:33:52.080

fine poets. I certainly know Naomi and I would suggest that you go down and hear both Austin and Naomi. Now, on Friday, which is May 23rd, at 7pm at Cowell Provost House, and that is on the UCSC campus. Beverly Dalen and Ted

00:33:52.160 - 00:34:11.340

Pearson will be reading from their latest books. Beverly is going to read from her book called "A Reading," and Ted Pearson, will be reading from his new book "Mnemonics." And both of the books have been very, very highly praised by

00:34:11.420 - 00:34:31.760

critics. That is this Friday, 7pm at the Cowell Provost house on the UCSC campus here in Santa Cruz. Here's an announcement, which I hope all of the women poets in the area will be aware of. Attention Santa Cruz women writers, submissions are now

00:34:31.840 - 00:34:49.540

being accepted for In Celebration of the Muse Six, which will begin again in September 1986. Writers interested in reading in the series should submit no more than three to five poems or pages of prose. This series

00:34:49.620 - 00:35:10.200

welcomes participation from women of Santa Cruz County and will benefit Metrix Women's News Magazine. It is a celebration of creativity, the muse and the written word. And many of you have heard the three programs we did last fall on the Celebration

00:35:10.290 - 00:35:30.210

of the Muse readings, and are familiar with them. So if you want to send submissions that's three to five poems send to In Celebration of the Muse, P.O. box 971, Felton, California 95018. Again, that's three to five poems, or pages of prose,

00:35:30.290 - 00:35:50.630

to In Celebration of the Muse, Post Office Box. 971 Felton, California 95018. So, also for more information you can call Patrice Vecchione at 462-1176. That's Patrice Vecchione, 461176 and deadlines for submissions are July 15th. But since you'll

00:35:50.710 - 00:36:10.390

probably forget it, I do it as quickly as possible. Okay, we are talking with Lucille Clifton as I said, a poet and a writer of- an author of more than twenty children's books, and the former Poet Laureate of Maryland, but that is not her

00:36:10.470 - 00:37:11.500

only distinction. Lucille was also nominated for a Pulitzer Prize. Why don't you tell us about that, Lucille? Lucille Clifton: Didn't win it! I was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize in- the book called, "Two-Headed Women," in 1984.

00:37:02.260 - 00:37:15.280

Morton Marcus: Well, great, why don't you read us a poem again, and we just get to hear more of Lucille Clifton this way. Lucille Clifton: Well, I have some poems as I say, somebody Interestingly enough, I judged the Pulitzer Prizes, I was one

00:37:13.550 - 00:37:20.830

told me I write series of poems. I hadn't thought about it before of the judges of the Pulitzer Prizes for poetry I think the that but I do try to explore things in poetry. And I have year before that- yeah, the year before- yes, the year before

00:37:20.690 - 00:37:29.740

some poems about a Lakota chief whose name was- who was called that, which was interesting. And I was pleased to be nominated. Crazy Horse. He was one of my favorite humans for many Judging was more interesting because I learned a lot about

00:37:28.760 - 00:37:36.640

reasons. I think the really mundane lowdown reason is what's going, on and how these things work, and what's because the great love of- though Crazy Horse was married happening in contemporary poetry today, and I thought that was an

00:37:35.660 - 00:37:45.580

to a woman called Black Shawl, the great love of his life was a interesting thing. "Two-Headed Women," also won the Juniper woman called Black Buffalo Woman. And being a Black Buffalo Prize given by the Massachusetts Review that year.

00:37:43.820 - 00:38:02.360

Woman, I feel very close to that. I feel very close to Crazy Horse. He was a visionary and he was very different from the notion, from many- what we think of as Native American warchiefs. He did not wear a warbonnet though he was entitled to; he

00:38:02.390 - 00:38:18.440

did not dance very much; he did not glory in killing. He was undefeated in battle and was the last word chief. I think of it a lot because the Dakota are one of- the Lakota but he was Lakota, are one of the nations that are grouped together. The

00:38:18.440 - 00:38:31.610

Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota people are grouped together under- under- white people call them the Sioux. And I always liked to call people by the name they call themselves, people and everything else, I guess. Anyway, this is something about

00:38:31.610 - 00:38:48.230

Crazy Horse. What you should know is, first of all that, it's important, it seems to me that Lakota people remember that they were Lakota and perhaps not Sioux; and also, Crazy Horse used to go into the Black Hills, and they believed that was the

00:38:48.230 - 00:39:01.670

center of the world. And he also believed that he could get into a trance-like state and was invincible. He believed that that was the real world and that the world people tend to walk around in was a shadow world. Wakan Tanka's the name given to

00:39:01.670 - 00:39:19.610

the Great Spirit. Anyway, this is called: THE DEATH OF CRAZY HORSE, SEPTEMBER 5TH, 1877, AGED 35 In the hills where the hoop of the world bends to the four directions, Wakan Tanka has shown me the path men walk is

00:39:19.640 - 00:39:44.990

shadow. I was a boy when I saw it, that long hairs and gray beards and myself must enter the dream to be real. So I dreamed and I dreamed and I endured. I am the final warchief, never defeated in battle. Lakota remember my name. Now on this

00:39:44.990 - 00:40:04.340

walk, my bones and my heart are warm in the hands of my father. Wakan Tanka has shown me the shadows will break near the creek called Wounded Knee. Remember my name, Lakota, I am the final warchief. Father, my heart never defeated in battle,

00:40:04.820 - 00:40:24.980

father, my bones never defeated in battle, leave them at Wounded Knee and remember our name, Lakota. I am released from shadow, my horse dreams and dances under me as I enter the actual world.

00:40:26.250 - 00:40:40.980

Another poem about him is called, "The Message of Crazy Horse." What you should know is, first of all, Crazy Horse told his young men, his young cousins, that he believed he believed that he would be killed, but he instructed the

00:40:40.980 - 00:40:54.330

young men that if he was killed, if they painted his body red and plunged it in fresh water, he would revive. But if not, he would wait until the world was ready for him to come, and then he would return. And I always think that Crazy Horse must be

00:40:54.330 - 00:41:06.870

standing around right now just, you know in run(?) position. Another thing you should know, as I said, he was married to a woman called Black Shawl, he loved a woman called Black Buffalo Woman and he gave his- he had one daughter that he

00:41:06.870 - 00:41:19.340

acknowledged, he had another child but he acknowledged only the one. And I think she had just a great name, she was called, They Are Afraid of Her. Anyway, this is: THE MESSAGE OF CRAZY HORSE

00:41:20.680 - 00:41:40.030

I would sit in the center of the world, the Black Hills hooped around me and dream of my dancing horse. My wife was Black Shawl who gave me the daughter I called They Are Afraid of Her. I was afraid of nothing except Black Buffalo Woman. My love for

00:41:40.030 - 00:42:02.860

her I wore instead of feathers. I did not dance, I dreamed. I am dreaming now across the worlds. My medicine is strong. My medicine is strong in the Black basket of these fingers. I come again through this Black Buffalo Woman. Hear me, the hoop of the

00:42:02.860 - 00:42:21.470

world is breaking. Fire burns in the four directions. The dreamers are running away from the hills. I have seen it. I am Crazy Horse. Morton Marcus: Crazy Horse is also one of my favorite

00:42:21.470 - 00:42:38.930

characters. We're sort of meeting a lot of things here and the audience, if the name seems familiar to them, what he is most famous for to the white man was the great victory for the Lakotas and the joint Sioux tribes, actually, as the French

00:42:38.930 - 00:42:53.060

called them, at Little Bighorn. A wonderful man, he was thought he was invincible in battle because he had that great spirit [unidentified[ in which this warchief was riding through the sky with all these arrows coming at him.

00:42:53.270 - 00:43:09.980

Lucille Clifton: And the horse was dancing under him, and of course he didn't call it Crazy Horse, that horse was dancing etc. as we would say, as if it was crazy, yeah. Marvelous, marvelous, man. I love small visionaries. Or visionaries of

00:43:09.980 - 00:43:21.970

any size. Morton Marcus: Anyway, how about another poem? Lucille Clifton: Well, let's see what else? Oh, okay, I have a- I have a couple of poems about South Africa, not nearly enough,

00:43:22.120 - 00:43:39.970

but I'm reminded of one of my favorite lines. I have many favorite lines from poems and there's a South African poet called, Keorapetse Kgositsile. And he is a South African poet and he talks a lot about what's happening in South Africa and

00:43:39.970 - 00:43:56.350

the last lines are, "And can you still say, someday?" I think that's wonderful, those lines are wonderful. I have a poem called, "Winnie's Song," dedicated to Winnie Mandela. And I was thinking about the word Mandela, their name, and the

00:43:56.350 - 00:44:08.410

word Mandala, which is an esoteric term for a symbol, and that symbol stands for the universe, and this was not lost on me. Anyway: WINNIE'S SONG

00:44:09.700 - 00:44:34.510

A dark wind is blowing the townships into town. They have burned your house, Winnie Mandela, but your house has been on fire a hundred years. They have locked your husband in a cage and it has made him free. Mandela, Mandela, Mandala is the

00:44:34.510 - 00:44:54.250

universe. The universe is burning. A dark wind is blowing the homelands into home. Another poem, something like that is about- I think about the women, the mothers of South Africa, and I think about both

00:44:54.250 - 00:45:06.550

sets of mothers -- both the mothers of the indigenous people of that country and the mothers of the white children of that country -- and well, it makes me think. This is a poem called: THERE

00:45:08.280 - 00:45:40.050

There in the homelands, they are arresting children. They are beating children and shooting children. In Joburg, a woman sits on her veranda. She sits on her veranda watching her child. Her child is playing on their lawn. Her man comes home from

00:45:40.140 - 00:46:09.930

arresting children. She smiles. She offers him a drink. Each morning, I practice forgetting that woman. When her sister calls me sister, I remind myself she is there. I suppose there's always that dual way of looking at things.

00:46:09.960 - 00:46:24.780

Morton Marcus: Well, let's just take that statement, "dual way of looking at things." Your poetry certainly is full of the world, the world of politics, the world of society, and what's going on with it. And so much of what I will term for want of a

00:46:24.780 - 00:46:40.830

better word "protest poetry," which does not define your poetry, I don't think, just winds up being rhetoric and it's not poetry. But what I hope the listener is hearing as Lucille goes on, is a really firm sense of imagery here and original

00:46:40.830 - 00:46:54.900

twists of mind and metaphor that makes you look at a situation in a way that you hadn't expected to look at it. The rhetorical poets who are yelling, you know, let the third world have the world, let the poor eat, you know, you say, well, that's a

00:46:54.900 - 00:47:06.000

nice sentiment, but you're not being shown the world in a different way that will make your heart jump or will move you emotionally to really see it and feel it. Lucille Clifton: It seems to me that to take some kind of

00:47:06.000 - 00:47:22.500

responsibility- I think the finest introduction I've ever had was very recently and I hope it's true. When somebody said, introduced me and said, this is Lucille Clifton, she is sane. Well, I hadn't been called sane very often, I thought that was a

00:47:22.500 - 00:47:36.390

good thing. But I do think that with young poets that I see, I think there's a lot of rhetoric, but if you're going to say you write poems, I think you have a responsibility to turn the rhetoric into poetry if you can, and you can still do the same

00:47:36.390 - 00:47:45.370

kind of thing. Morton Marcus: Well, again, I know you want to read some more Lucille Clifton: Well, hot dog! I'm a poet. That's good to know! poems. The poem about looking at the Atlantic Ocean. Okay, black

00:47:45.370 - 00:48:00.700

poets will look at the Atlantic Ocean and see the past history of those ships coming over from Africa. But the imagery there, bones turning into bridges, which are really- they're submerged bridges, they're not bridges over the water, but

00:47:58.330 - 00:48:09.610

[Laughter] Morton Marcus: And a sane one! [Laughter] under the water, and are the actual ocean beds. I mean, this Lucille Clifton: Sane too? This is too much. [Laughter]

00:48:04.690 - 00:48:15.220

is now moving on to a different order. And the same way that woman you do not acknowledge, wh is a sister, but you understat Morton Marcus: What a good day this! [Laughter] that. I mean, this is th difference, for those folks o

00:48:15.220 - 00:48:35.320

t there who are starting to wri e poetry, between a poet Good day, indeed! [Laughter] nd someone who is just writing er sentiments do Lucille Clifton: Well, okay, responsibility, this illustrates

00:48:35.350 - 00:48:49.180

it sort of. This is a poem- but I am very strong on on personal responsibility. And I'm very strong on recognizing that we have within us the seeds for all these things that we see as awful, which also means that we have the seeds in us for what is

00:48:49.180 - 00:49:02.410

good. If we are capable of awfulness, we are also capable of good, but we have to acknowledge it first, because if all the bad stuffs happening over there, then we don't have to do anything. So this is a poem that's sort of like that. I

00:49:02.410 - 00:49:15.130

read it somewhere on Long Island and it mentions Holocaust, and a woman said you should not mention the Holocaust. And I was trying to explain that you have to take that responsibility as well. Anyway, this doesn't have a title:

00:49:16.410 - 00:49:36.000

Cruelty, don't talk to me about cruelty or what I am capable of. When I wanted the roaches dead, I wanted them dead and I killed them. I took a broom to their country and I smashed and sliced without warning, without stopping, and I smiled all the

00:49:36.000 - 00:50:00.060

time I was doing it. It was a holocaust of roaches, bodies, parts of bodies, red all over the ground. I didn't ask their names. They had no names worth knowing. Now, I watch myself whenever I enter a room, I never know what I might do.

00:50:00.660 - 00:50:16.020

Morton Marcus: That's wonderful, that's wonderful. Let me advertise a movie in town also in relation to this. Several years ago, everyone was being amazingly moved by a Hollywood writer, as far as I'm concerned, that's William Styron and his

00:50:16.020 - 00:50:29.760

latest Hollywood novel -- "The Confessions of Nat Turner," was the one before that -- this one was "Sophie's Choice," and dealt with the Holocaust. And I was really infuriated at the film because it just made people emotionally sprinkle their eyes

00:50:29.940 - 00:50:42.330

around on their shirt fronts. But there's a film out now in town, I will not tell the name of the theater, of course, that I urge everyone to see on the same subject, but it is about this. How we are all, let's not single out people, but how we

00:50:42.330 - 00:50:58.860

are all human. And what would we do in this situation, the film is called, "Angry Harvest" and it is a German film. And may I suggest it to everyone out there, it is not pleasant but it is a wonderful piece of art and a human document, which is very

00:50:58.860 - 00:51:11.880

provocative. I would urge everyone to go see it, so anyway. Lucille Clifton: This is the same kind of thing, I guess. This is taken almost verbatim from a news report in- about a

00:51:11.880 - 00:51:28.170

camp in Lebanon. And the lady didn't want me to read this either, but one has to. She asked me, she said something to me about what is just and I thought, well, no horrible thing is just, whatever happened. But this is almost verbatim, it's

00:51:28.170 - 00:51:42.840

called: THE WOMAN IN THE CAMP, CBS NEWS, LEBANON 1983 They murdered twenty-seven of my family, counting the babies in the wombs. Some of the men spilled seed on the ground. How

00:51:42.840 - 00:52:05.310

much is a thousand, a thousand. I had a child. I taught her to love. I should have taught her to fear. I have learned about blood and bullets. Where is the love in my education. A woman in the camp has one breast and two babies. A woman in this camp has

00:52:05.310 - 00:52:31.620

breasts like mine, a woman in this camp watched the stealing of her husband, a woman in this camp has eyes like mine. Alive, I never thought of other women. If I am ever alive again, I will hold out my female hands.

00:52:33.930 - 00:52:50.040

And one more sort of like that, this is a poem that I wrote a while back, but I thought of it a great deal during the recent time when Colonel Qaddafi's child was killed. I have a mother and a grandmother and I take no joy in the killing of

00:52:50.040 - 00:53:08.910

children, whoever does it. And I thought about what children must think when they look at adults. This is called: SORROW SONG For the eyes of the children, the last to melt, the last to

00:53:08.910 - 00:53:34.110

vaporize. For the lingering eyes of the children, staring, the eyes of the children of Buchenwald, of Vietnam, and Johannesburg, for the eyes of the children of Nagasaki, for the eyes of the children of Middle Passage, for Cherokee

00:53:34.140 - 00:54:07.500

eyes, Ethiopian eyes, Russian eyes, American eyes, for all that remains of the children, their eyes, staring at us, amazed to see the extraordinary evil in ordinary men. Morton Marcus: Yes, indeed. We are coming up to five minutes to

00:54:07.500 - 00:54:23.710

the hour and we have been talking with Lucille Clifton. Lucille, can you read us a page of this vernacular prose, maybe some dialogue of a children's book. Lucille Clifton: This one I have here is probably the most- I

00:54:23.710 - 00:54:36.130

have a couple that are probably the languages most controversial. One is a book called, "All Us Come Cross the Water." I know about all of us come across the water but this is called, "All Us Come Cross the Water," and it starts:

00:54:36.850 - 00:54:46.990

I got this teacher named Miss Wills, this day she come asking everybody to tell where they people come from, everybody from the same place supposed to stand up by their selves, [unidentified] stays nothing, so that make all the other brothers

00:54:46.990 - 00:54:56.940

not say nothing too. Well, that's one kind of language. I have another called, "My Brother Fine With Me." And it's spoken by a little girl who's annoyed because she has a little brother and he's getting

00:54:56.940 - 00:55:09.980

on her nerves and that one starts: My brother baggy he going to run away, he say he tired a mom and daddy always telling him what to do. He say he a black man, a warrior, and he could make it by hisself so he goin' to run away.

00:55:10.710 - 00:55:24.690

And it goes on in that vein. This one is one that- I'll just read the first paragraph. It's a story about a child whose father's in prison. My agent said, Lucille, I don't know if there's a lot of call for children's books about people

00:55:24.690 - 00:55:37.890

whose father's in prison. But then again, who knows? You know, the prisons are full of people and they have children. And it was-it came to my mind after a visit to Auburn State Prison in Auburn, New York, which I enjoyed tremendously. It's

00:55:37.890 - 00:55:46.670

called: VISITING DAY Today is visiting day, mommy says I should wear my blue sweater and my jeans. Blue is my daddy's favorite color. "Wear

00:55:46.700 - 00:56:02.690

daddy's blue," is what my mommy says, "wear daddy's blue for him, Kanji." My name is Kanji. It means a lot of things, all of them good. My name means all good things and today is visiting day. Today is visiting day and I am sad. "We're going

00:56:02.690 - 00:56:16.270

to take your report card," mommy says, "we will take your card to show your daddy, Kanji." I am sad. And it goes on because she has a U in Talking. And she thinks her daddy won't love her anymore and her daddy's message to her is, I

00:56:16.270 - 00:56:26.450

can read that. "Kanji, girl, you listen to me," my daddy says, "now just because somebody has made a mistake, there's no reason to stop loving them. Love doesn't work like that," he smiles, "not for

00:56:26.450 - 00:56:37.330

daddy's or for Kanji's, too." And that's the message that I'm trying to get across, but I often use devious means to say what I'm trying to say. Morton Marcus: Lucille, I would like you to read one more poem

00:56:37.330 - 00:56:51.310

before we sign off. I'm going to- while you're looking for that, I'm going to take care of some business. Let me ask you though, I know it is very difficult because I have tried to get your books in this county. And I would urge the

00:56:51.310 - 00:57:02.600

listeners who have enjoyed this past hour to go into the local bookstores and say, "Will you please order Lucille Clifton's books of poetry," which are: Lucille Clifton: Oh, "Good Times," "Good News About the

00:57:02.600 - 00:57:18.020

Earth," "An Ordinary Woman," "Two-Headed Woman," and there's one being done that will be out in the early part of next year called, "Next." It's interesting that the library here has- I've read at the library though, and they said they're going to order

00:57:18.020 - 00:57:28.790

the poetry now because they had all the children's books, or most of them, but no poetry and I have one prose book called, "Generations." Morton Marcus: So you can get the children's books at the

00:57:29.000 - 00:57:33.080

local downtown library. Lucille Clifton: Oh, yes. Morton Marcus: Okay. And what about in bookstores? Can we get the

00:57:33.000 - 00:57:36.630

Morton Marcus: Capitola Book Cafe. Lucille Clifton: I think, "Two-Headed Woman," is Lucille Clifton: And I think, "Two-Headed Woman," will be available. Well, the children's books you might be able to get

00:57:36.660 - 00:57:52.110

in I think Bookshop Santa Cruz and also at Cafe- what is it there also. Morton Marcus: Okay. Let me just say that Leon is coming in here cooking up some good grub in the Jazz Kitchen just in a few

00:57:52.110 - 00:58:09.030

moments. Next week, Joe Stroud will be here with Pat Vecchione and they will be presenting children's poetry from the different schools around the county that is done through the SPECTRA program of which Pat is a master teacher, so do tune in

00:58:09.030 - 00:58:19.650

then. Lucille, thank you so much. It's been a delight for me and the last poem from Lucille Clifton, our guests for the day: Lucille Clifton: Well, this is just a fun poem in a way it's called:

00:58:19.650 - 00:58:37.410

MY DREAM ABOUT BEING WHITE Hey, music and me, only white. Hair, a flutter of fall leaves circling my perfect line of a nose, no lips, no behind. Hey, white me! And I'm wearing white history, but there's no future

00:58:37.680 - 00:58:42.270

in those clothes, so I take them off and I wake up dancing.