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Unknown: [Music] Morton Marcus: Good evening, everybody. This is the Poetry Show on KUSP. I'm your host Mort Marcus and before we begin tonight's proceedings, I'd like to thank Plaza Books on Pacific

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Avenue in Santa Cruz for a donation that partially made this program possible. The other donation of course comes from you, the listeners, and we thank you all. Sarah Vaughn in the background. We are going to talk tonight and hear the poetry of

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Harryette Mullen. And Harryette is the author of, "Tree Tall Woman." Her poetry and prose have appeared in many magazines and in the anthology, "Washing the Cow Skull," her work, and, "South by Southwest." She is an exciting new voice in poetry

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whose reading In Celebration of the Muse series, a year and a half ago, was rather sensational, I would say. And I would like to welcome her here right now at our Poetry Show. Harryette, welcome.

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Harryette Mullen: Thank you. Morton Marcus: Okay, now you- I think you're on the air. Let's try it again. Harryette Mullen: Okay, thanks. I'm glad to be here.

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Morton Marcus: We just had to punch up a little more. We are going to take Miss Vaughn and we are going to slowly take her voice down, and we're going to hear your voice from now on this evening. And we're also goi g to hear a little later from

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Nina Simone. Welcome to the P etry Show, Harryette. You ar not from California, are Harryette Mullen: No, I'm from Texas and Alabama. Morton Marcus: Alabama and then Texas?

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Harryette Mullen: Yes, born in Alabama and reared in Texas. Morton Marcus: Tell me, when did you move to California and what was the reason for your moving to California? I came out here in 1982 in order to attend UCSC.

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Harryette Mullen: And that was as a graduate student? As a graduate student in literature. Morton Marcus: What would you say about your poetry? We're not gonna be able to hear any of your early poetry, we're going

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to read- you're going to read mostly tonight from a new manuscript. Is there anything in the new manuscript, and if you have not prepared for this you can read whatever you want, that you would feel in a way introduces you to the radio

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audience? Harryette Mullen: This work is distant from some of my earlier work, it's- I'm writing in a different way and it's not really representative of me in the way that my earlier work

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was. Morton Marcus: Well, I think Harryette Mullen: Okay. I should say just maybe a little bit about this manuscript. It's called, "Trimmings," and it is

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about clothing, in a way, it started out as a list of items of clothing like stockings, and dresses, and shoes, and gloves, and purses, and belts, and it's a series of prose poems. And I should probably just read maybe a couple of them to get going.

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This one is called: BELT Becoming, for a song. A belt becomes such a small waist. Snakes around her, wrapping. Add waist to any figure, subtract,

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divide. Just the thing, a handy belt suggests embrace. Sucks her in. She buckles. Smiles, tighter. Quick to spot a bulge below the belt. And this is:

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GLOVES A tender white kid, or off-white tan. Snug black leather, second skin. Fits like a love, an utter other uttered. Bag of tricks, a slight hand preserved, a dainty. A solid color covers while

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rubber is protection. Tight is tender, softness cured. Alive and warm, some animal hides. Ghosts wear fingers, delicate wrists. Morton Marcus: Well, this certainly is very different

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poetry than you'd written before. Now, obviously, this seems almost like, well, how many poems do you have on clothing and things? Harryette Mullen: There are all together about sixty of them, I

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think, between fifty and sixty. Morton Marcus: Now, what do you think got you into writing poems about this subject or these subjects? Harryette Mullen: Well, one of the things is looking at

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fashion, looking at the magazines that are aimed at women. looking at the advertising and the way that fashion photography kind of veered over into the kinds of things that you used to see in pornographic photography. And

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thinking about how women, mold and shape themselves in order to fit into the garments, and not the other way around. And just thinking about, also, how we decide that things need to be a certain shape, not just a person's body, but a poem, a

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story, a novel, we have kind of preconceived ideas about how something should be. So these prose poems are ways of meditating on that idea about how we trim things to fit, you know. Trimming, I use- I tried to be playful, as well as

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serious. And so there are a lot of puns and word plays, and trimming itself, you know, that means things that you trim with frills, extras. And also trimming means beating, and trim is kind of slang term for women and having to do with their

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sexuality, so all of those things are included in this work. Morton Marcus: Uh huh. One more thing, before we get back- And these are prose poems, and I wonder if using, you know, the

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form of the prose poem had to do with the subject, like, in a way, the approaches and this is in no way a denigrating essay, right? Like you're really showing insights into what, let's say, the society has caused women to do because of

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fashions. So do you think that that form, using the prose poem had something to do with the intention here? Harryette Mullen: Well, I think I wanted a form that would allow freedom and because-

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Morton Marcus: Which wouldn't push you in. Harryette Mullen: Right, I didn't want to be constrained by a form, so I'm using a form that allows me to do whatever I want. Morton Marcus: Great. Let's hear some more then, and now that-

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especially as the audience has had, you know, some of this explanation, they will listen harder for certain things. Harryette Mullen: Okay, this is: PURSE

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Lips, clasped together. Old leather fastened with a little snap. Strapped, broke. Quick snatch, in a clutch, chased the lady with the alligator purse. Green thief, off relief, got into her pocketbook by hook or crook.

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Do I keep going? Morton Marcus: Lots of puns there. Harryette Mullen: Mhm. This is: SHOES

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A little tight, something spiked, tries on a scandal. One of a pair, vamps it up with a heel. If the shoe fits, another mule kicking, a fallen arch angel loses sole support. And there I was trying to think about kind of the gossip columns

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as well, you know, the- the tabloid way of telling a story. And, I mean, some of these things are just- I started with a list, basically, and I just started kind of playing around with what were the association, you know, it's easy to-

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Morton Marcus: Well, you know, listening to these, what comes to my mind immediately is, especially with the association that hits on so many different things, they're not just sexual puns, but they're religious puns, they almost at times seem

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as though, maybe I'm waiting or anticipating this, getting off into Mother Goose and then things like that. And this is like highly sophisticated rapping, you know, because so much of rapping is a play, especially the stuff that's come

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out of the Bronx is such a play on words. I mean, just to keep up with the associations that are going on sometimes is a trip and a half. Anyway, go on. Let's hear some more. Harryette Mullen: I would say that rapping as it's practiced

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on the street is already highly sophisticated. Morton Marcus: Yeah, okay, I stand corrected. Harryette Mullen: But that's a good connection, I like that. This is:

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HAT Brimming over eye shades cool complexion, delicate hue, the lid on, keeps a cool head under high hat. This is:

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PANTYHOSE Two shapely legs will stretch and run. Sheer magic, a box divided. One saw a woman cut in half, waving incredible feet. Morton Marcus: You know what I'm going to ask you to do, because

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these puns are so packed and they lead to others, I'm going to ask you to read some of these a second time. Harryette Mullen: Okay. Morton Marcus: Of the first ones, do you have any one that

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you would particularly like to read? Or, "Purse," which really, and maybe even the one after purse, which really hit me with a lot of very funny puns and well, the shoe with the the arch angel, I liked very much, the fallen arch angel.

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Harryette Mullen: So you want to hear, "Purse," and "Shoe," again? Morton Marcus: Yeah and that's just because this will allow the audience to hear it again and to pick up what they may have

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missed because they stopped on one pun and didn't go on with you. Harryette Mullen: Okay: PURSE

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Lips, clasped together. Old leather fastened with a little snap. Strapped, broke. Quick snatch, in a clutch, chased the lady with the alligator purse. Green thief, off relief, got into her pocketbook by hook or crook.

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Then that does have a children's rhyme, that jump rope rhyme about the lady with the alligator purse. This is: SHOES A little tight, something spiked, tries on a scandal. One

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of a pair, vamps it up with a heel. If the shoe fits, another mule kicking, a fallen arch angel loses sole support. Morton Marcus: That's great. I really like that one, that's got so much going on: the scandal for sandal and everything like

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that. Harryette Mullen: And a blues line too: "another mule kicking in my stall." Morton Marcus: Right, but I love that fallen arch angel, that's

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great. Harryette Mullen: Okay, so I can read some more. Oh, the, "Pantyhose," I could say that was the image of the pantyhose always did remind me of kind of a woman cut in half. So that

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obviously led to the magician sewing the woman in half. Morton Marcus: Well and since you're talking about it, why don't we hear it again? Harryette Mullen: Okay.

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PANTYHOSE Two shapely legs will stretch and run. Sheer magic, a box divided. One saw a woman cut in half, waving incredible feet. Morton Marcus: How did you spell that, "feet?" F-E-A-T or?

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Harryette Mullen: It's spelled F-E-E-T, but the other one is- Morton Marcus: I mean, I feel like I'm trailing after you, you know, and I'm sort of going in one direction, then as you go in another direction, I'm still off in that other direction, so

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whoops, you got to come back, you know? Harryette Mullen: Right, I wanted to have that sense of ranging back and forth. And including serious things and playful things all at once because I think that's the way

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the world is as we find it, you know, we can't always separate what's serious from what's comic, so I tried to include as much as I could in each one. This is called, "Pink," and this this one I could say is kind of my version of a painting by

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Manet that's called Olympia. And this actually was for me the kind of the birth of this whole manuscript. Morton Marcus: Okay, could you describe for us- Harryette Mullen: This painting shows a nude white woman. Her

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skin looks sort of pink to me, and she's lying on a couch or divan or something, and the light in the painting is all on her body. Then in the shadows in the painting is a large black woman dressed in a pink dress, wearing an apron, obviously her

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servant who's bringing her a bouquet of flowers. And you presume you know you can create this entire story about the lover or customer who has sent the flowers, you know, that are now being delivered. So that's the image of this poem:

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A light white disgraceful sugar looks pink, wears an air, pale PINK compared to shadow standing by. To plump recliner, naked truth lies. Behind her shadow wears her color, arms full of flowers.

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A rosy charm is pink. And she is ink. The mistress wears no petticoat or leaves. The other in shadow, a large pink dress. Oh, I should say also that there's a poem by Gertrude Stein which I cannibalized also here. And so I used all the words in

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her poem in this poem. Morton Marcus: But in different places, you just- Harryette Mullen: Right. Plus, I added other words that were not there.

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Morton Marcus: That sounds like a lot of fun. I've never done that before but that's great. You just get like a whole load of words to say, all right, these have to go into the poem somewhere.

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Harryette Mullen: Mmh. Morton Marcus: That's great, I got to try that one. Harryette Mullen: Yeah, I was trying to free myself, you know, this was a whole process because I was used to writing in a

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particular way. Morton Marcus: Well, I can see this has really caused your style to, what shall I say, well, not disperse, but certainly scatter. And yet at the same time, this is very,

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very precise, and you've cut the language down enormously from even what it was before. And it certainly wasn't ornate before, you know. So this is very interesting, and the reason I'm interested in the scattered words, I'm always interested in

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methods or games that will get people because since I teach writing, also, that will get people out of writing blocks, or those months, or weeks, or even days when suddenly you just can't write. And the words sound great. I've never thought of

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doing that before, so that's a good one. And I hope you're listening out there if you're having that trouble, and taking notes. Harryette Mullen: Okay, this one is:

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BODYSTOCKING The color 'nude,' a flesh tone. Whose flesh unfolds barely, appealing tan. Shelf life of stacked goods. Software inventories summer stock. Thin-skinned Godiva with a wig

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on horseback, body cast in a sit calm. Morton Marcus: And what was that again, why don't you do that one more time? Harryette Mullen: Okay.

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BODYSTOCKING The color 'nude,' a flesh tone. Whose flesh unfolds barely, appealing tan. Shelf life of stacked goods, software inventories summer stock. Thin-skinned Godiva with a wig

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on horseback, body cast in a sit calm. You know, body stockings are what actresses used to wear to do nude scenes- Morton Marcus: Right.

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Harryette Mullen: They weren't really that. And I also was always fascinated with the stockings that were called 'nude stockings,' you know, and if I wore them, they would not look good on me because they're for nude, the color of a nude white

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person, right? So part of what I was thinking about in writing this stuff is about beauty, about femininity. I mean part of the constraints, you know, are not just your shape, but also your color, and the texture of your hair and the color of your

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eyes. And all of that, because these standards do exist, these ideals, and when I think about how femininity is represented, or how woman is represented in poetry, you know, in the English language, so much of it has to do with the white woman as the

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standard. So I think at certain points I was trying to include examples of, or some kind of snatches or pieces that would refer to black women. And it was very hard to work those things in because I'm using scraps of language that already exists,

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and I'm just trying to work them around into a different form. But since I'm using the scraps that exist, you know, I'm sort of constrained, even though I'm trying to free myself, I'm still constrained because they already refer to white women, you know,

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in some sense, so- or they refer to whiteness or to a particular- Morton Marcus: Well, it was the thing that Eldridge Cleaver makes very clear and so on is, when he says, "All I had to watch on television were white women, and that's what was set

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up as my goal." You know, and so that's what he's advertised, that's what white men and- are always advertised, they don't think one thing of it, say. But this is very interesting and it's great the way you're going into this. I'm thinking while

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you're talking about how Olympia is the center of this whole book, because the white woman's in the foreground, right, and the black woman is in the background and she is presenting, she's giving something to this white figure,

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this nude white figure. Yeah and that sort of seems to say the whole thing, you know, and seems to get it perfectly. Harryette Mullen: Yeah, of course, Picasso drew a sketch; his version of Olympia has a black woman, naked black woman,

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lying on a couch and two white men are, you know, kind of flanking her. And so that's his comment I suppose about Manet's- I mean Manet was already ironically commenting on, like, Titian's painting, so I mean, it's a kind of an ongoing

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dialogue among the visual artists. Morton Marcus: Like, what is it? The passion of pilgrim to his love that just keeps going on through English literature? Everyone gets their shot at it for at least around a hundred

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years, then it gets dull. Okay, go on, fascinating stuff. Well, let's see what time we- oh, gee whiz, we've hardly been on at all. Harryette Mullen: Okay, this is:

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PETTICOAT In folds of chaste petticoats, chupamirtos. In a red sack with a silk ribbon, hummingbird, whose tongue is sweet. Charm for love, a captive beat, a flutter. Hidden under ruffles, secret

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heart, a red pouch tied with silk. Morton Marcus: Now that is sexy. Could you read that one again? Harryette Mullen: Okay. I could just say about chupamirtos, these were charms that were used in colonial Mexico. And people

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would take a dead hummingbird, I hope they didn't catch and kill these birds, but I imagine they did. That was part of the charm, you put a hummingbird in a sack and women wore them inside their petticoats to attract lovers. And when I read about this, I

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thought, oh, that is why in the painting, one of the paintings of Frida Kahlo, she's wearing a hummingbird around her neck. It's like- the wings are outspread, so it's like her version of a crucifix. And she's wearing, the necklace around her

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neck is thorns, and you can see the drops of blood coming out of her neck and then there is this hummingbird. And I- so she obviously is referring to that because, you know, this is her kind of love charm and she paints herself, you know-

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Morton Marcus: Well, before you go into this for the people out there who wonder who Frida Kahlo is, many people on this show have mentioned Frida Kahlo, and Claire Braz-Valentine, who I'm sure you know, is writing a whole play on her and may even

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have finished the play by now. Why don't you tell us who Frida was? Harryette Mullen: She was a Mexican painter, she also was married to a Mexican painter Diego Rivera, who, in many

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circles, is better known. He was a muralist, they were both very political, activist artists. And he painted on a very grand scale these huge murals and she tended to paint rather small paintings that were self portraits, partly because she was bedridden for

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much of her life, but she's one of my favorite artists. Morton Marcus: Yeah, all of this information has come to us in the last several years in a terrific biography, and I forget the name of it, but that's sort of what everyone is-

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Harryette Mullen: It's called, "Frida Kahlo," I think. Morton Marcus: Can't miss it on that, and that's K-A-H-L-O right? Harryette Mullen: Mhm.

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Morton Marcus: Yep, so anyone out there who's interested in this name that just keeps coming up on these shows, like every three or four shows someone's talking about her, just should go out and really hunt up her biography because it is really

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astonishing. And, of course, Claire has glommed on to the pain that she has had to endure in her life, which is very similar to Claire with her back. But yeah, so anyway, go back to this poem, which I think is extremely erotic.

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Harryette Mullen: Okay: PETTICOAT In folds of chaste petticoats, chupamirtos. In a red sec with a silk ribbon, hummingbird, whose tongue is sweet. Charm for love,

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a captive beat, a flutter. Hidden under ruffles, secret heart, a red pouch tied with silk. Morton Marcus: Well, obviously there are different styles in these prose poems, some of which are much more jagged and chopped

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up phrasing and phrases, in which maybe you just might use rhyme to hop from one rhyme to another, one pun to another, but that was very, very descriptive, each very orderly description, and as far as sentence structure was concerned, very different,

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but gorgeous, beautiful stuff. Harryette Mullen: Okay, this is: TEDDY Bare skin almost, underworn. Warm stitched-together soft torn

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toy. Stuffed and laced voluptuous imaginary mammal made of lovely lumps. Dear plump-cheeked plaything, taken to bed and hugged in the dark. Morton Marcus: Right, so the reason we can read these over

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again, also is that they're so short, that, you know, we don't really take up that much time to do it. And I think they certainly warrant two readings so if it doesn't bother you, for everyone out there who remembers their teddy bear, let's hear it

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again. Harryette Mullen: Okay. Morton Marcus: And listen to that first pun, and if you're wondering what we're talking about when we talk about these

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puns, just listen to the first line of this poem called, "Teddy," and I think you'll see what Harryette is doing, or at least hear. Harryette Mullen: Bareskin almost, under worn. Warm

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stitched-together soft torn toy. Stuffed and laced voluptuous imaginary mammal made of lovely lumps. Dear plump-cheeked plaything taken to bed and hugged in the dark. This is:

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SHIMMIES Releases from valises. Scientific briefs. Chemists model molecular shadows structure mimic dancers. Shirt on the line, a flapper's shimmy shake in a silk chemise. A

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shift, a woman's movement, a loose garment of man-made fabric. Polly and Esther living modern with better chemistry. Morton Marcus: Who used, "living with better chemists?" General Electric or something like that?

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Harryette Mullen: Are we supposed to do commercials on public radio? Morton Marcus: I was just remembering that as an old ad. Harryette Mullen: I think it was DuPont.

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Morton Marcus: DuPont it might have been, yeah. Harryette Mullen: Theirs was, "better living with chemistry." Morton Marcus: Yeah, that was it. Harryette Mullen: This is:

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SLIP Of a girl, in white, between the lines, in the spaces where nothing is written. Her starched petticoats, giving him the slip. Loose lips, a telltale spot, where she was kissed, and told.

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Who would believe her, lying still between the sheets. The pillow cases, the dirty laundry laundered. Pillow talk-show on a leather couch, slips in and out of dreams. Without permission, slips out the door. A name adores a Freudian slip.

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Morton Marcus: Could you read that one again? It's so loaded with stuff. Okay Harryette Mullen: SLIP

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Of a girl, in white, between the lines, in the spaces where nothing is written. Her starched petticoats, giving him the slip. Loose lips, a telltale spot, where she was kissed, and told who would believe her, lying still between the sheets. The

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pillow cases, the dirty laundry, laundered Pillow Talk Show on a leather couch slips in and out of dreams. Without permission, slips out the door. A name adores a Freudian slip. Morton Marcus: And now I will let you take a break so that you

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can get your breath back and we will listen to some Nina Simone. Let's listen to Nina Simone in the background. This is the Poetry Show, and tonight we are talking with Harryette Mullen, the author of well, we're not concerned with the book she was-

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well let me just ask one thing before we go on then. Harryette, is the book for sale anywhere in Santa Cruz County, "Tree Tall Woman?" Harryette Mullen: I have copies and I do sell them at readings.

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It's not in any book stores at the moment. Morton Marcus: Well, that's too bad. Why don't you just bring it into some of the bookstores; as I'm sure they'll probably be happy to handle some for you. It's really wonderful poetry.

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And anyway, we're hearing from a new manuscript tonight, which is called, "Trimmings." Before we get back into the talk with Harryette Mullen, let's do what we usually do at this time, which is talk about some readings that are happening. In

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San Jose, Derek Walcott, the most distinguished poet from the Caribbean will conduct an advanced poetry workshop on Saturday, March 14th at 9:30am to 4:30pm at San Jose State University. I'm sure he's reading. Oh, he will also read

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his poems at McCabe Hall on Thursday, March 12th, that's two days from now as part of San Jose's annual Arts Education Week. So that's Derek Walcott who will be at San Jose State on March 12th, McCabe Hall, as part of San Jose's Annual Arts

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Education Week, and that will be at 8pm. This is amazing, I'm getting another, hold it. Walcott will read his poetry on Friday, March 13th at 8pm in Memorial Chapel on the San Jose State University campus. He will also read his poems on Thursday,

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March 12th but he doesn't give a time on the March 12th reading. But he's also going to be over here, isn't he? Harryette Mullen: I didn't know that. Morton Marcus: Nobody knows it because UCSC keeps everything a

00:32:07.840 - 00:32:25.270

secret. If UCSC is out there, and if they would like to inform us of when Derek Walcott is going to read at UCSC, we would be very happy to know. We do not get any information from them whatsoever on the Poetry Show. Anyway, you will be able to hear

00:32:25.270 - 00:32:38.350

him and I think he really is a wonderful poet, I love some of his poetry very much. The, "Star Apple Kingdom," which is on sale right now, "The Fortunate Traveler," and then there's the Collected Poems 1948 to 1984. He will be reading on Friday night,

00:32:38.350 - 00:32:55.750

March 13th at 8pm in Memorial Chapel, and you see even the people on the record are happy to hear that. Also, I'd like to announce a Book Arts Workshop series. The first books were handwritten on animal skins and covered with wood. Centuries of

00:32:55.750 - 00:33:09.400

innovation leading to and beyond the invention of movable type in 1450 resulted in today's books, creations of technical and aesthetic beauty. An opportunity to create your own handmade book from start to finish is being offered as a series of workshops

00:33:09.400 - 00:33:21.130

by the Printer's Chapel, pronounced chapel, of Santa Cruz, I just pronounced it that way, an organization of artists who practice the book arts. Not only are they an organization, and they don't put this here, they are just about one of the

00:33:21.130 - 00:33:37.960

really wonderful national, I say national treasures, or county treasures that we have and that is the wonderful book binders and printers here in Santa Cruz, and they're the people mostly who make up the Printers Chapel. The series includes papermaking

00:33:38.620 - 00:33:54.280

with Peter Thomas, paper marbling with Polly Fox, letterpress printing with Felicia Rice, who I'm sure most of you know as the head of Movable Parts Press, and hand book binding with Constance Hunter. Instruction will take

00:33:54.280 - 00:34:12.850

place in the Artist Studios on weekends and evenings in March, April, and May. For further information please call Polly Fox at 429-5190. That's call Polly Fox at 429-5190 for this Book Arts Workshop series and if I had the time I would like to

00:34:12.850 - 00:34:27.130

take that too, that really sounds like a wonderful opportunity. Let me just get you ready for the San Jose Poetry Center spring residency this year. The conference is on poetry in the narrative and is scheduled for March 27th and

00:34:27.130 - 00:34:42.100

29th. Among the people who will be taking place will be Ursula Le Guin, the prize winning science fiction author and poet, Carolyn Kizer, the Pulitzer Prize winning poet, and not least, the wonderful Al Young, noted novelist, poet, and

00:34:42.100 - 00:34:54.130

screenwriter who also spends part of his time up at UCSC. So that should really be something to look forward to. We'll announce more about that. That's March 27th through 29th at San Jose State.

00:34:55.500 - 00:35:17.400

Well, let us get back now as we pop down Nina Simone. Let us get back to Harryette Mullen and this wonderful book of prose poems based on puns and rhymes and the many senses of what fashion has done to women. And not only women, but the

00:35:17.400 - 00:35:34.020

relationship between the sense of beauty in a white man's world, and how would I say it? The black sense of beauty, which really is not allowed to function within that world, and is different. And what about- are there poems in here that

00:35:34.020 - 00:35:51.470

really try to get to a sense of what maybe is essential feminine beauty beyond all of these different senses of beauty? Harryette Mullen: Well, personally, I don't think there is any essential feminine beauty. I think that, to me,

00:35:51.470 - 00:36:15.710

most human beings in good health are beautiful, you know? And I don't exactly know how to talk about beauty because I don't think that beauty is- I don't think beauty is something that we really need to worry about. I think, you know, we should worry

00:36:15.710 - 00:36:36.440

about things that we can do something about, and you know, beauty is something you have or you don't have, or that you see or you don't see. And I mean, I think that- I don't even think that art really is about beauty. I mean, people always say that

00:36:36.440 - 00:36:49.620

it is, but I don't think for me, that's not really what it's about. I mean, there's a certain pleasure but that doesn't have to come from beauty. Morton Marcus: Okay, let me ask you then, since we got on the

00:36:49.620 - 00:38:03.980

subject, what is art about then? As far as Harryette Mullen is concerned. No, just as far as Harryette Mullen is concerned. Harryette Mullen: Me and my big mouth. I think that artists are Well, the reason I ask is because the big movement was the

00:37:08.780 - 00:37:30.590

trying to get other people to see things the way we see them. I do think that, I think that that's part of what artists are interested in doing is that artists want to influence other people's perceptions of the world. And there are a lot of

00:37:30.590 - 00:37:54.110

other people who want to do that, too, obviously, Madiso Avenue wants to do that; Reag n wants to do that. But I thi k that artists are interested n something that's not just bas d on, "Get it now!" you know. An if people want to call that bea

00:37:54.530 - 00:38:16.970

ty, I don't think that, you k ow, for me- it's hard to t Black Is Beautiful movement, what fifteen years ago, it was that long ago? Well, how do you feel about that? Well, for the time, I think that it was useful. It was a useful

00:38:16.970 - 00:38:35.480

tool to get people to think about how beauty is represented, how people speak about beauty, the fact that because black people had been discriminated against, killed, you know, enslaved, oppressed, that, you know, having all of these things

00:38:35.540 - 00:38:59.930

occurre tends to make one feel, well, is there something wrong with me? I mean some people felt that their image was not worth, you know, it seemed as if the beautiful black person, you know, was excluded. But then again, now that I think about

00:38:59.930 - 00:39:22.430

it, black is beautiful, that is obvious, black is beautiful. I mean, any group has beautiful representatives, right? And I think that was a political movement, you know, to talk about internalized racism and self-hate and also images, how

00:39:22.460 - 00:39:50.600

images are kind of sent out into the world to represent humanity. And humanity is diverse, I mean humanity is multiple, it's not one thing, one image, one ideal, and we're all impressed by that. As long as there's an image of someone and it's not me, you

00:39:50.600 - 00:40:08.930

know, then there's a possibility I'll think, well, what's wrong with me? I don't have blue eyes or I don't have an hourglass figure or whatever it is at the moment, it's always changing, it's never the same, so someone is always going to be left out

00:40:09.230 - 00:40:29.270

of these things. Whether you're black or your hair isn't the right color, or you don't have the right shape of nose or, you know, you aren't wearing the correct garments. And I think that art, I think art in some ways contributes to some of

00:40:29.270 - 00:40:48.140

these things, but in in other ways, I think artists are trying to at least multiply the number of images and to give people more of a sense of there being, you know, that humanity is full, and that-

00:40:50.070 - 00:41:03.540

Morton Marcus: You're doing a great job. Harryette Mullen: Yeah, but this is hard stuff for me to talk about because it seems very abstract or something I- Morton Marcus: No, it doesn't at all to me; I think you've made

00:41:03.540 - 00:41:12.690

it very clear. Let me just add one addendum, have you seen "Myth America" that's been playing down there? Harryette Mullen: I read Ross' review, but I haven't seen that film, no.

00:41:12.720 - 00:41:23.280

Morton Marcus: Yeah, tried to put it on [unidentified] it's very much some talking about this. Obviously, that's what the demonstrations were about. And it's very interesting, it's so interesting because if you think you know what you're going to

00:41:23.280 - 00:41:39.240

think going in there, it really mixes you up because the other side, whatever the other side may be, really has good arguments. In other words, it's a very, very fair kind of documentary, and it's not loaded at all, and it's very

00:41:39.240 - 00:41:51.060

interesting. Anyway, with that idea, and I think that was a very interesting idea, let's get back to the poetry and hear more of it. Harryette Mullen: Okay. This is called:

00:41:51.060 - 00:42:09.300

BIKINI Tiny binary aftermath figure. Navel baste playmates with ultimate breeder of nuclear families. Suburban bombshell shelters magazines, big guns aiming to sell inny things or

00:42:09.300 - 00:42:16.870

nothing at all. Morton Marcus: Please, I want to ask you to read that again. Harryette Mullen: Okay. Morton Marcus: And if there are young listeners out there who do

00:42:16.870 - 00:42:33.070

not know it, I wonder what those puns in there might possibly be about. After World War II, one of the major tests of atomic weapons went on at Bikini Atoll. And the minute you said Bikini, I said, I wonder if she's going to start to play with those

00:42:33.070 - 00:42:50.460

ideas, and it's really terrific. So with that in mind, listen to this description of a bikini bathing suit. Harryette Mullen: Tiny binary aftermath figure. Navel baste playmates with ultimate breeder of nuclear families. Suburban

00:42:50.460 - 00:43:04.560

bombshell shelters magazines of big guns, aiming to sell inny things or nothing at all. Morton Marcus: That's incredible. I mean, even navel baste on the second time around I realized how that can be taken

00:43:04.560 - 00:43:17.640

two ways. It's terrific. Harryette Mullen: Okay, this is: SKIRTS Step into a gathered floral. Sashay and flounce out. Take to

00:43:17.640 - 00:43:41.820

any length, skirt's sweep, her furbelow. Or slit, tight. Wrapped skirt, a shirttail tucked. Cowgirl, hips suede. Leather fringe skirts, a border. A stiff, fine crinoline. Straight seams, hemmed, and binding. Warm hands, felt skirt.

00:43:42.150 - 00:43:59.000

An issue of blood, she pleated. And after, "Skirts," comes: BLOUSE Heartsleeve's dart bleeds whiter white, softened with wear. Among

00:43:59.300 - 00:44:19.310

blowzy buxom bosomed, give us this -- blowing, blissful, open. O most immaculate bleached blahs, bless any starched, loosening blossom. Morton Marcus: How long, and these are short, obviously, how

00:44:19.310 - 00:44:31.100

long does it take you to write these? I mean not just to get them down, but I mean to really work on them and polish them? I'm sure that people out there would be interested in what kind of revision do these things go through, or how actually you

00:44:31.100 - 00:44:54.870

work, especially on these poems. Harryette Mullen: Well, since it was kind of a different process from how I was used to working, it took me a while. In fact, I was working on an independent study with Tillie Shaw at UCSC.

00:44:55.020 - 00:45:17.640

I had started thinking about them and I wanted to keep on working on them and still be able to go to school. So, it's hard to know- some of them were written very quickly actually because I've been thinking about this group. Once I had decided I

00:45:17.640 - 00:45:34.740

was going to write about clothing, I had a list that I kind of carried around with me and if I would have, you know, if something would occur, an association, or a pun or something, I would just add it to my list. And I would circle

00:45:34.740 - 00:45:50.430

things and draw lines. And so I had various little lists and diagrams that I was working on all the time. And there were certain things that I wanted to work in, and I was just looking as, you know, I saw this as a whole, looking for the right

00:45:50.430 - 00:46:01.860

opportunity to work it in. And then as people that I knew, you know, they would see me with my little list, and they'd ask what I was doing, and they'd say, you know, when they knew I was writing about clothing, they'd say, "Well, have you written

00:46:01.860 - 00:46:17.760

about socks yet?" You know, or "I'm sure you're going to include, you know, a brassiere." And so some things I hadn't thought about got added to the list. And there were certain, you know, there were certain kind of obvious puns that I

00:46:17.760 - 00:46:34.590

wanted to throw in, like, with the shoes, I mean I knew I was going to have something about a heel and a vamp. You know, I mean, that was the basic thing. I said, oh well, I think shoes are always in pairs, so obviously, I think about the old

00:46:34.590 - 00:46:52.080

shoe, you know, a married couple, and you know, what happens when that is disrupted, and when especially thinking about vamp and heel, because of course, things have to be disrupted when you have vamp and heel. So it was just allowing

00:46:52.530 - 00:47:16.560

the puns and the words and the patterns that are already kind of in our collective, you know, advertised, you know, Mother Goose consciousness, you know, or unconscious, you know, memory, let them create these little stories. I mean, I didn't

00:47:16.620 - 00:47:27.430

know where they were going, and I don't know- some of them were fast and some of them I worked on for a long time. And so, you know, I just- Morton Marcus: See what I- what I was thinking about was, okay,

00:47:27.460 - 00:47:41.800

you got it down; first draft, you did it; and then you see more possibilities, possibly later that you left out. Let's say Bikini, as an example, all right. Now, did that all come out just the way it was? Or did you you know, come back and work

00:47:41.800 - 00:47:57.760

on it, add more things to it? Harryette Mullen: I did, I kind of I knew I was going to have at all, you know, like bikini atoll. And, and I sort of had a general idea that I was going to- it was going to have to be

00:47:57.760 - 00:48:16.090

about that nuclear explosion. I mean, I could not in this kind of work mention bikini without it being a reference to that. I mean, the bikini was invented, you know, as a French designer, who decided to kind of commemorate the nuclear age, you

00:48:16.090 - 00:48:27.650

know, by creating this sensational garment. Morton Marcus: That's right, thgat's right. I forgot that. Harryette Mullen: So I mean, that is part of the history of the bathing suit, you know, or whatever it is. I don't think

00:48:27.650 - 00:48:45.860

people actually necessarily swim in them, but- So I think that there were, you know, if I could think of another connection to make, I would throw it in and I'd started thinking about the bomb shelters, and bombshell, bomb shelter occurred to me,

00:48:46.160 - 00:49:04.820

and, you know, I thought about, you know, what do people do with these bomb shelters now? Do they put their own playboy magazines in there and stack them up, you know? And so, there are kind of- they end up being kind of very compressed narratives, in a

00:49:04.820 - 00:49:19.640

sense, but- And I'm not really answering your question, but yes, I do go back and layer in more things when I can. Like the "Skirts." I worked on that, you know, in fact, it might have too much in it. But um-

00:49:20.000 - 00:49:27.280

Morton Marcus: It's the one that ends "she pleaded?" Harryette Mullen: Yes. [Laughter] Morton Marcus: I love it. Harryette Mullen: Because I I couldn't resist some of those

00:49:27.280 - 00:49:42.970

things. I mean, I wanted to try to get in as many- I knew I wanted "warm hands, felt skirt." I mean, before I ever wrote anything on skirts, I knew I wanted "warm hands, felt skirt," that was kind of the beginning of thinking about that. And I

00:49:42.970 - 00:49:55.240

kept adding more and more. Morton Marcus: That's terrific. I, I think that this is an invaluable show. I mean, you really are giving us, you know, when we are stopping and talking, you're giving us

00:49:55.240 - 00:50:05.680

enormous amounts of information into the poems and also into the way you work, the way your mind works. I think you're answering the questions even more than I hoped. Let's have some more poems.

00:50:05.830 - 00:50:21.140

Harryette Mullen: Okay. This is: TROUSER Menswear, the britches. Rosie flies off the handle. Jeans so tight. she pants. Wants to cool out, slacks off.

00:50:25.430 - 00:50:43.140

As a tribute to Rosie the Riveter. A DRESS Of what material softness folds to hold her, under when over, inside or out, where air is, makes a difference in motion,

00:50:43.410 - 00:51:07.740

living here- or walking. Taking off, putting on her flimsy garment. Holes breathe and swallow. Openings, hem, sleeve. Borders on edges where skin stops, or begins. Fancy trim. Sew buttons on, but they are slow to open flowers. Imagine

00:51:07.740 - 00:51:32.800

the color. Loose skirt, a petal, a pocket for your hand. My dress falls over my head. A shadow overtakes me. This is RED DRESS When a dress is red, is there are a happy ending. Is there

00:51:32.830 - 00:51:58.600

murmur and satisfaction. Silence or a warning. It talks the talk, but who can walk the walk? distress is red. It sells, shouts, an urge turned inside out. Sight for sore eyes. The better to see you. Out for a stroll, writing wolf-tickets.

00:51:59.740 - 00:52:09.280

Morton Marcus: Let's do that one again. Okay, and that certainly did get us back to- Well, it's not Mother Goose, but it's a famous fairy tale. Harryette Mullen: Red Riding Hood.

00:52:10.140 - 00:52:31.500

RED DRESS When a dress is red, is there a happy ending. Is there murmur and satisfaction. Silence or a warning. It talks the talk, but who can walk the walk? Distress is red. Its sells, shouts, an

00:52:31.530 - 00:52:50.360

urge turned inside out. Sight for sore eyes. The better to see you. Out for a stroll, writing wolf-tickets. Morton Marcus: Terrific. Did you see that film, "The Red Dress?" Sounds like this is a description right from it.

00:52:50.570 - 00:53:01.730

Harryette Mullen: Oh, really? Morton Marcus: A film from the Netherlands. Yeah, maybe I don't get all that. Let us hear maybe two more poems. And so choose them well.

00:53:02.120 - 00:53:11.090

Harryette Mullen: Okay. Morton Marcus: And we may even have time to read one of them, possibly two of them over. Harryette Mullen: Okay. Let's see.

00:53:15.890 - 00:53:35.320

I'll read: BANGLES Akimbo bimbos, all a jangle. Tricked out trinkets, aloud galore. Gimcracks, a stack. Bang and whimper. Two to tangle. It's

00:53:35.320 - 00:53:42.070

a jungle. Morton Marcus: Oh, that's so beautiful as far as sound is concerned. They get that sense of the bangles why don't you read that one again. That's lovely.

00:53:42.310 - 00:53:57.820

Harryette Mullen: Okay. Akimbo bimbos, all a jangle. Tricked out trinkets, aloud galore. Gimcracks, a stack. Bang and whimper. Two to tangle. It's a jungle.

00:54:02.140 - 00:54:18.510

All right. I'll read: BLACK LACE Papt babes with peekaboo webs. Preying widows, spiders in black

00:54:18.510 - 00:54:34.710

weeds. Smouldering glance in a drop-dead dress. Witches burning at high stakes. Blackened virgins, selling the sizzle. Morton Marcus: And I'm going to ask you to read that again. Oh, do you have another one you want to read?

00:54:34.770 - 00:54:41.150

Harryette Mullen: Oh, I'll read it again. Morton Marcus: Okay, why don't you read it again? And you had another one you wanted to end with? Harryette Mullen: Ah, yeah, sure.

00:54:41.180 - 00:54:53.420

Morton Marcus: Okay, so why don't you read this, and then before you end with it, I will sign off. We will then hear you read the poem, and then Nina will come on again, and then it will be time for Tim Folger and "Things Ain't What They Used To

00:54:53.420 - 00:55:02.420

Be." Harryette Mullen: Okay. This is: BLACK LACE Rapt babes in peekaboo webs. Preying widows, spiders in black

00:55:02.420 - 00:55:19.370

weeds. Smouldering glance in a drop-dead dress. Witches burning at high stakes. Blackened virgins, selling the sizzle. Morton Marcus: And before our guest for the night reads the last poem, let me say that you have been listening to the

00:55:19.370 - 00:55:32.330

Poetry Show. I'm your host, Mark Marcus for this week. Next week, as you know, is St. Patrick's Day, and I would be very surprised, though he has surprised me before, if Joe does not -- who will be your host next time -- does not have some

00:55:32.330 - 00:55:47.960

wonderful Irish poetry for you. Again, I would like to thank Plaza Books on Pacific Avenue in Santa Cruz for making this program at least in part possible. Tonight we have been listening to, and I have had a wonderful time, and have had

00:55:47.960 - 00:56:01.700

some very profound words from our guests, Harryette Mullen. Harriet, thank you very much for being here. And you get the last word with what I take looks like maybe the last poem in the book. Harryette Mullen: It's an- It's nearly the last. This is:

00:56:01.660 - 00:56:20.560

NET STOCKINGS A fish caught, Pretty fish wiggles for a while. A caught fish squirms. A freshly licked fish sighs. Gapes with holes for eyes. A wiggling fish flashes its display. A pattern over

00:56:20.560 - 00:56:43.780

whiteness. Bareness comes with coverage for peeking through holes to see flesh out of water. Cold holes where eyes go. The sea is cold. Her body of foam, some frothy Venus. Or strayed mermaid, tail split, bleeds into the sea. With brand new feet

00:56:43.990 - 00:57:41.100

walks unsteady on land, each step an ache. Unknown: [Music]