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Dennis Morton: Mort, we're ready. Morton Marcus: Good evening, everybody. This is Mort Marcus and this is a very special Poetry Show, I'm joined by my co-host, Dennis Morton.

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Dennis Morton: Howdy. Morton Marcus: And tonight we have a real legend of his time, but also a legend of Santa Cruz, and that is the great George Hitchcock, who has taught 20 years as lecturer at UCSC. But

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more important, in his lifetime was an activist, a- an actor of tremendous repute. In fact, the first time I ever saw him was the actor'sworkshop production of Chekov in San Francisco. A wonderful poet, but one of the great organizers I have ever

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come to actually work under, and a short story writer. He did Kayak magazine in the 60s, 70s, and into the 80s. And it was one of the landmark literary magazines, I think, really in the world. We will talk about that but George, welcome to this

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show where you which you've been on many times before. George Hitchcock: Thank you. Thank you, Morton, very much. It's a pleasure to be back here again. Morton Marcus: George is living in Oregon now, and he spends

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part of his time in Oregon and part of his time in Mexico. George we are- actually have you here tonight because some um you- they've- Storyline Press has just come out with a wonderful collection of your work. It's called ‘A George

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Hitchcock Reader‘ and it's named ‘’One Man Boat‘’. And could you tell us what the significance of the title of that book is? George Hitchcock: ‘’One Man Boat‘’ no doubt refers to Kayak and Kayak is the name of the magazine, which I edited for 20

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years, largely out of Santa Cruz. And it's distinguished by carrying one steersman and the ideals set up only one passenger as well. Morton Marcus: So, therefore, the- the taste that was

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reflected in this magazine was one man's taste, one man's vision, if I can say that also- George Hitchcock: You're allowed to say that. Dennis Morton: And I have to be allowed to say something right

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now too, I have to remind our listeners that they are listening to KUSP, 88.9 FM, and KBDH San Ardo serving the central California coast with public radio. We forgot to do that Mort.

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Morton Marcus: I thought that was already done. Okay, fine. So, George, you're not only here to honor this book, but you're going to be giving a reading on Tuesday and- George Hitchcock: It says Tuesday evening as the- what a

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weird hour of 6 pm at the McHenry Library, that's the main library at UCSC in Santa Cruz. Morton Marcus: And we'll be mentioning that again. But again, it is the main library up at UCSC from six to seven, and

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it'll be in the foyer of the library. No one can miss it, you just get up there, park your car. George Hitchcock: Following that, there's a reception and I hope there's something to drink or something to eat, and you're

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all invited to come anyway. Dennis Morton: We'll be there. George Hitchcock: Wonderful. Morton Marcus: George, tell us a little bit about how you

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actually started writing. And to me, you're just really such a protean human being, because you create in so many ways, and how did- I know you came to San Francisco in the 30s and- George Hitchcock: 1930- in 1935

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Morton Marcus: Right, and you met Kenneth Rexroth there. George Hitchcock: Yes, I met Kenneth Rexroth in a Chinese restaurant where he was having a big argument with somebody over, I think Dylan Thomas, and I was in the next booth. And so I was

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the beneficiary, the unintentional beneficiary of his- his remarks, which seems so cogent to me that I went to the next booth and introduced myself and we became very good friends. Dennis Morton: And how long did you know Rexroth?

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George Hitchcock: Well, I knew Rexroth from 1936 to his death. God knows how long that was. Let's see, I could go back and calculate it. Dennis Morton: He- he didn't get this- to San Francisco too much

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before you, did he? George Hitchcock: Oh, well he came to San Francisco in his 20s. Dennis Morton: Oh, that early! I didn't realize that.

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George Hitchcock: He left Chicago I think in 1927 or 28, and was in San Francisco where he spent the better part of his life. He then moved down to Santa Barbara for the last years where he was lecturing at the University of California in

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Santa Barbara. Morton Marcus: Did you ever publish one of his poems? George Hitchcock: Oh, of course. Dennis Morton: Hmm. Um, when you were-

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George Hitchcock: We very good friends for a long period of time. We once spent two- two weeks together in the High Sierras. He was a great outdoorsman, camp cook, traveler, rock on [unidentified]. A very good

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person to go for long hikes with. Dennis Morton: If- if sometime during the show you can remember one of those stories, perhaps you could lay it on us. George Hitchcock: Well, it's possible but I think I'd better

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not. Morton Marcus: Okay. And that time when you came to San Francisco, what was- what were you actually doing as far as the arts were concerned or any political commitment.

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George Hitchcock: While I worked in the labor movement for a number of years as an organizer and general lecturer. I worked in the California Labor School for four or five years and was variously a lecturer there and then the head of their art

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department, which at that time had- was perhaps numerically the biggest in San Francisco. This was right after the war. Dennis Morton: Why did HUAC become interested in you? George Hitchcock: Well, because of my radical affiliations at

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one time or another. I don't know why, they were just fishing, I think they generally were. This was in 1957. Dennis Morton: Yes, in the- in the new book in ‘’One Man Boat‘’, there's a lengthy section.

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George Hitchcock: Well, thanks to Joseph Bednarik, one of our editors who dug it up out of the Congressional Record, he found the transcript of my testimony, such as it was in front of The House Un-American Activities Committee, which was notorious

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for- I mean, the testimony was notorious for its insolence. Dennis Morton: Well, I would say- George Hitchcock: From a comedic sense, perhaps I like to think- Dennis Morton: Well, you handled them that's- that's for sure. As

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anyone who reads this new book, which has just been released, I understand. George Hitchcock: It's just out this month and from Storyline Press. It's a beautiful book, it's a big long one. It has in

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addition to about 80 or 90 pages of poems from- collected from various volumes, it has two of my six or seven produced plays, and it has a couple of long short stories, and then a lot of documents such as The House Un-American Activities

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Committee, courtesy of the Congressional Record, and they even include a whole section of Kayak rejection slips and those are articles about Kayak by various people. Dennis Morton: Well, what struck me first, of course, was the-

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the painting on the cover, and I was telling my friend about it. And then I happened to mention it a few days later, to Mort. I think I said to my friend that if I could- if I could paint, that's the kind of painting I would like to paint. And then I

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mentioned That‘s very sweet of you. I mentioned it to Morton, then he told me that you were, you painted it.

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George Hitchcock: Yes, that's true, I perpetrated that. Dennis Morton: What, what- what don't you do? George Hitchcock: Well music, I don't do music at all. Although I'd once spent the better part of eight years at least on the

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weekends, being the stage director and acting coach for the opera program at the Conservatory of Music in San Francisco. So that qualifies me as a music lover anyway, but I- Dennis Morton: That's pretty close, yeah.

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George Hitchcock: I- I have no talent in the direction of music. But I've always had a certain degree of talent and typically in the theater. I worked in a theater for many years

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Morton Marcus: Right, now when- um, okay in the 30s, you arrive in the 30s, were very active. But what was the first art field that you went into? George Hitchcock: Acting

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Morton Marcus: Yep and - George Hitchcock: Acting I played and I worked backstage on the world premiere of John Steinbeck's ‘’Of Mice and Men‘’, which was done in San Francisco at the old Theater Union in the

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North Beach before he took it to New York. And I played in a number of shows at the old Theater Union in San Francisco. Morton Marcus: Well, it was- I don't know if it was the Union, but it was a when I first came to San Francisco, I saw you do

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some Chekov and I- I mean, I didn't even know who you were at the time. And I was just absolutely mesmerized. As everyone can hear, George's voice is- George Hitchcock: Oh, that's very sweet of you, Morton.

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Morton Marcus: Well, and I actually I think I told you before and you said, Oh, go on. But actually, you and I met as I was telling you tonight when the Artists Liberation Union was formed

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George Hitchcock: In the 60s Morton Marcus: In the 60s and you were the chair of the neighborhoods‘ committee to get art into the neighborhoods, and I was your vice-chair, and I assumed the position that I have

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assumed for you ever since which is being your gopher. George Hitchcock: Oh, oh, fortunately, fortunately, I've forgotten all that. Dennis Morton: What was that talk about polishing shoes at

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dinner, Morton? Morton Marcus: Oh, that was just kidding. George Hitchcock: Just kidding. Dennis Morton: Oh, just kidding, oh.

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Morton Marcus: Because you see, and I will read a description of what went on in the collating parties for Kayak. So anyway, you were an actor and you were invited to go back to New York, with Blau when they were going to Lincoln Center, but you

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wanted to stay in San Francisco. George Hitchcock: Well, it would be nice if that were the case, but I wasn't invited to go back. And I at the time had strong differences with Herbert Blau, although I was a member of his

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company and much admired him, but I really thought they were walking out on this- their pledges to the San Francisco company by accepting- and accepting the direction of the Lincoln Center Theatre in New York City, and taking with them

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maybe four or five of their favorite actors. I wasn't invited, so I don't know where you got that. Morton Marcus: Okay, that clears that up. George Hitchcock: Because I had- in any event, had already left

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the company with a considerable argument about leaving everybody in the lurch. And it turned out in the event that they- they couldn't make it, they couldn't hack it with the New York critics and Herbert Blau stayed there for one year and then left

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or was fired. And Jules Irving, who was the managing director, came back to the West Coast and started working in television. And then, of course, is his- he's the father of Amy Irving- Morton Marcus: And then-

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George Hitchcock: And he had a heart attack and died at an early age. Alas, a fine director and a fine- fine theatre person. Morton Marcus: It was about this time when they left, you were already editing poetry for the San Francisco Review.

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George Hitchcock: Yes. Morton Marcus: And when did you decide to break off and do Kayak? George Hitchcock: Well, I didn't break off, the San Francisco

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Review was an excellent idea, and it was run by three of us. I was sort of the Associate Editor without any financial responsibility because I didn't have any money. But the magazine sort of ran out of steam after about 10 or 12 issues, and we

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put out a final issue in collaboration with Jay Laughlin and ‘’ New Directions‘’, which I helped edit, did the major part of the editing, and then there was no San Francisco Review. But by that time, I'd been hooked a bit and I thought, Well, I'll

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start my own magazine. Morton Marcus: How long have you been writing poetry at this time? George Hitchcock: Oh, a few years only. I didn't- prior to

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that, I've been mostly writing plays. I've- I looked at- looked up the record a few days ago or a week or so ago and it turns out that I've had 36 different productions of plays of mine. Not anymore recently, but I had a lot of experience in directing

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and writing for the theater. And those plays are still around they're- there are a total of about six or seven plays, but they've been produced all around the country. Morton Marcus: And then when Shakespeare Santa Cruz started

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in Santa Cruz, to jump years later, you were one of the featured character performers. George Hitchcock: Yes, I went into Shakespeare Santa Cruz. I was teaching at Santa Cruz at that time, but I went in as an

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actor the second year, I played Falstaff and then the "Merry Wives of Windsor and scored a sufficient success because I had a hand- had a hand up on it because I already played the same role at the Shakespeare Festival in Marin County a few

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years before. And after that I played with the Shakespeare Santa Cruz for a number of years, six or seven I think, till I threw in my [unidentified] and slippers, decided not to act anymore.

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Morton Marcus: Well, I remember one performance, you're going to deny this and- George Hitchcock: All right, I'll deny in advance, Mort, and save you-

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Morton Marcus: That- that you were doing Polonius and I was sitting in the second row, and you came to my side of the stage, you were sitting and you winked at me. George Hitchcock: Oh, I might have done that, but that's very

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likely true. I was playing Polonius with Paul. Morton Marcus: That's right. George Hitchcock: Who was doing Hamlet. It was a good production, excellent production, I thought, and

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Polonius of course, the juicy role, all you have to be is sufficiently bromidical. It's not hard to do, was done in a modern dress anyway, I played in a banker's double-breasted pinstripe suit.

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Morton Marcus: And it was- it was in a Southern state, it was a new plantation actually, as I remember. George Hitchcock: Well, I don't know. Morton Marcus: And then Castro arrives in the end, as Laertes,

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Laertes is now sort of a Castro Cuban. George Hitchcock: I think that's your imagination. That certainly wasn't the director's intention. Morton Marcus: Well, there were in fatigues.

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George Hitchcock: Yes, that yes, there were agents from the CIO- a CIA loitering around the King's Court, all dressed in fatigues, that much is true, but I don't think Castro figured in it at all.

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Morton Marcus: See I would- well I really enjoyed that play. Alright. Dennis Morton: Rewriting the script. George Hitchcock: Even if you miss read it, you want to hear a

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poem now and then you can ask some more questions. Morton Marcus: We would love to hear a poem, George. George Hitchcock: Good. I'll read one or two or three poems from this new- new book called ‘’One Man Boat‘’ but the poems

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themselves are fairly old. I'm not writing poems now, I'm a painter. These two poems for travelers, with the first one, is: LAST CALL

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Hurry up, hurry up, friends. We've got to get a move on. A train loud- a trainload of open mouths is waiting for us at Rockabye Station. Move along, move along, please. I've come to herald the chromatic revolution. I've come to announce the age of

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implosion. We mustn't be late for the barricades. No time, no time left for marzipan, no time for badminton or RSVPs. Someone just tossed a brick through the plate glass window and the naked mannequins have all come down with AIDS. So pack your comb and

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some drip-dries, don't forget your Rolex. We've got to be there on the dot when the chameleon leaps from the brakeman's pocket and begins its final dance. The second is:

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JUST KEEP GOING Where to now? Look at the map. It's smudged. It always was. I left my glasses. Where? At the motel. Well, we can't go back. Why not? We can't, that's all. Which way then? Adelante. That's

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the only way? That's the only way. Despite, despite it all, despite the rancid air, the smog, the dead fuchsias, the crutches, the burning navels, and the tired hats of filthy snow? In spite of everything. All right, take up your pack.

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I've got it. Adelante? Adelante. Morton Marcus: When did you write those George? George Hitchcock: I can't remember, Morton Marcus: Roughly?

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George Hitchcock: A long time ago. Dennis Morton: A long time ago. George Hitchcock: Probably 40 years ago, 30 years ago perhaps. To tell the truth, I haven't written any poems in the last 15

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or 20 years. I've been spending my time entirely painting. Right. Lying on my back looking upward through the sumac leaves, the air sparkles with moats and the fleecy pavilions of flying spiders. A hundred feet toward heaven, the new fronds of the

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redwoods are the lighter green in the dark tracery. A friend is hurling oak sticks at an eager black dog, which given its will would devour the forest branch by branch. What is important is not to pursue love for it will always elude you, rather to make

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yourself worthy to receive it; should, like these shimmering webs in the afternoon sun, it to be silently offered. Morton Marcus: Aw, that's a nice one. George Hitchcock: And now for a slight change or something

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totally different as Monty Python says. NURSERY RHYME The dog stands up in its chair and howls to the moon in fear. The forks won't play, the dish runs away, and as for the

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platters, no point in hanging around, where everyone who matters has already drowned. Black ribbons on her fingers, black ribbons on her toes, nightingales in shop windows, perched in plaster rose. The leaf falls under the plow, the

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pedals crumble too. Jack be nimble, Jack be quick, she whom we loved on Monday is under the oil slick now Alright, that's enough poems for the moment. Morton Marcus: Well, and that okay, it's a really great way to

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open the conversation about Kayak because after the San Francisco Review you became your own editor. You didn't have to work with anyone else and you began this magazine called Kayak, which really was one of the great changes and even how

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poetry was presented in a literary magazine. So could you tell us a little bit about how you started Kayak and what your idea was behind it? George Hitchcock: Oh, that's a large question. I started

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because I was hooked on publishing after working my five years part-time on editing the San Francisco Review, and I felt that a poetry magazine that matters has to reflect the passions and feelings of one editor. So I started it as a

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dictatorship. I never changed the fact that it was a dictatorship, that is I made all- ultimately all the artistic decisions. Morton Marcus: That's why I polished the shoes, you say.

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George Hitchcock: Yeah. Well, I think you know, I'm not for dictatorships at all, but I do think that in artistic matters, that a dictatorship is the only way to go. Because it- unless a magazine reflects the personality and the prejudices,

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the biases, loves, passions, and so forth of an editor, it's no good, it's useless really. I know most university magazines, most literary magazines are edited on entirely different principles, by committee, and by faculty and so forth and so on,

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and they don't- they don't stand for anything. And here I was about to launch a magazine, which would be populated largely by- at the start, at least largely by the works of poets with whom I was already in contact through the other

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magazine. And I would make the judgments on them, and if people didn't like it, they didn't like it, that's all right. Now the only other way you can do this really is to control your costs as far as publishing is concerned, and the- most

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magazines are sunk by the cost of printing, so I taught myself printing. I'm a bit of a mechanic anyway because I carry a joiner and shipfitters card and it worked in factories, or had worked in factories a good bit. So I taught myself how to

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print and I did it by buying a secondhand monolithic dresser graph machine and tearing it all apart, and putting it all back together- oiling it and putting it all back together again, piece by piece by which time I knew how it ran. And so I did

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all of the printing and during the 20 years we published Kayak, I printed every single issue. And for a while, I was setting the type, and finally, we got a little more money coming in from a variety of sources, mostly subscriptions, why I was able to

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draw out the typography but the press work was always done by me. And then the- us correlating and assembling of it was done by our friends, which is makes it- makes it a community effort. Morty participated, I know.

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Morton Marcus: Endlessly. George Hitchcock: A lot of good people participated, including Ray Carver and Charlie Simic when he was in town. Morton Marcus: And we will actually talk more about that

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when we come back. And we will come back. We are talking with George Hitchcock, the former editor of Kayak, the wonderful poet who is in town after years to read from his new book, ‘’One Man Boat‘’, a George Hitchcock reader. And it'll be again and

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we will announce this again, six o'clock, from six to seven in the foyer of the McHenry Library up at UCSC, this Tuesday Dennis Morton: The 27th Morton Marcus: Tuesday the 27th, so we will tell you more about

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that. Keep listening, there are more fascinating stories with fascinating and very famous writers. But now we will take a break. And we are back again on The Poerty Show with a very special

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show with George Hitchcock who is in town to give a reading this coming Tuesday at six pm in the foyer of the McHenry Library up at UCSC and it is also all about his one man- his reader called "The George Hitchcock Reader, One Man's Boat‘’. We are

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talking about Kayak and we're going to talk very shortly about another reason why George is here. But I wanted to read what some of these collating parties were like. Dennis Morton: Well Morton, before you do that we've got- we

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can't skip by the announcement part of the show. Morton Marcus: Oh, okay Dennis Morton: The- the obligatory part that we're very happy is obligatory, we'd like to say that "From The Bookshelf"

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hosted by Billy Harris, will bring us a local writer Vinnie Hansen to read excerpts from her book ‘’Rotten Dates‘’ immediately following the poetry show this evening at nine o'clock. We'd also like to thank our contributing listeners for

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30 years of supporting Central Coast Public Radio KUSP. And I also need right now, Mort, to let folks know that the Poetry Santa Cruz reading series continues, and on June the 10th visit Professor at UCSC Sesshu Foster from the LA area will be

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reading with Dion Farquhar. And that will be Tuesday, June the 10th at The Bookshop, Santa Cruz as part of the continuing Poetry Santa Cruz reading series. Now we can get back to George, Morton.

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Morton Marcus: Okay, I just wanted to read, which is from a memoir that actually Ray Carver and I wrote, about those collating parties, and this is the early ones, which happened on Laguna Street in San Francisco four times a year, and

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they went like this: The collating parties were done by poets, there were usually 20 of us, an interchangeable group of contributors, friends, actors, and writers, or painters passing through all turned into

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happy workers by George Hitchcock, a commanding presence with a voice like a wave booming in a sea cave, who directed us to collate and staple pages, stuffing address envelopes and encouraged us to meet each other while he kept bread, cold cuts,

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beer, and pie stacked on the kitchen table. And we would just go for- all day long. It was just- it was just continuous and it was one of the really- it was the closest thing that I have ever been to a soirée, American style, anywhere in this country.

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And you were liable to meet anyone who was coming through town, W.S Merwin would come through town, David Ignatow was there at one point, anyone who was coming through San Francisco would be at this collating party at this magazine, which suddenly

00:28:37.730 - 00:28:51.820

just became an instantaneous international hit is- in literary terms, and was literally showing up in libraries all around the world. So- Dennis Morton: Well, I understand, George that you- you

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published one of my poetry heroes Charles Simic you were the first to publish his book or to- you published his first book, is that right? George Hitchcock: I published his first two books.

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Dennis Morton: His first two books. What was it "Milk Lit?" What what what was the name of that first book? George Hitchcock: Well, you're supposed to tell me Dennis Morton: I stumbled over something about a "lit by a

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glass of milk" something. [crosstalk] George Hitchcock: The third one. Dennis Morton: That's the third one. Oh, well, Morton Marcus: "What the Grass Says," I think-

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George Hitchcock: "What the Grass Says" is one of them. Yes. Dennis Morton: You were just testing me. George Hitchcock: No, no, I can't remember the names of all the books I've published because we did a lot, we did 36 of them.

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And I know the first two of Charles Simic I published and was happy to. Morton Marcus: Jim Tate was another one. George Hitchcock: Jim Tate, well, Jim Tate had won the Yale

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Younger Poet's Award, so I can't say that I discovered him but he was a very good friend and a regular contributor to Kayak. Dennis Morton: Bill Knott. George Hitchcock: Bill Knott, I think I published one or two of

00:29:49.210 - 00:29:59.510

his things. Yes. Morton Marcus: And George was my first publisher, he did my first book of ‘’Origins.‘’ George Hitchcock: Mor- Morty's first book. Yes. That's true.

00:30:00.020 - 00:30:02.980

Dennis Morton: You did a Phil Levine book? Morton Marcus: Oh! George Hitchcock: Yes. Dennis Morton: ‘’Red Dust‘’

00:30:03.010 - 00:30:15.700

George Hitchcock: I did one called ‘’Red Dust‘’ a beautiful book of Philip Levine. Dennis Morton: Well, I suppose it uh list- George Hitchcock: Levine has more than amply repaid me for

00:30:15.700 - 00:30:35.540

whatever kindnesses I showed him during that time by his charming and most generous introduction to the book that he has written. Dennis Morton: Well, it's a beautiful introduction and he seemed very, very happy to have the- the honor to do it, it-

00:30:35.720 - 00:30:48.680

he's quite humble in it about- about himself and your role. George Hitchcock: He's a very good poet. He's a better poet than I am. Dennis Morton: He certainly is a fine poet. But you- you have an

00:30:48.680 - 00:31:01.550

article in ‘’One Man Boat‘’ that appeared in the Carlton Miscellany along with I guess 19 other articles about- about publishing small poetry presses, right? George Hitchcock: As I recall, yes.

00:31:01.600 - 00:31:17.110

Dennis Morton: It- well, it is in there. I remember reading that yesterday. And you talked about this dictatorship that you've mentioned a few minutes ago. And you said that any- any poetry editor worth his or her salt does the same thing, that

00:31:17.110 - 00:31:34.930

the- the poems reflect your- your taste. But that, that's- that being said, you had a finger on the pulse of some of the greatest poets in America, and you were- you were there almost at the beginning, and if not the beginning.

00:31:35.630 - 00:31:42.800

George Hitchcock: Well, that's very flattering. I don't know if it's true or not, but- Dennis Morton: Well, it seems to be true? George Hitchcock: Is it true? While I'd love it to be true,

00:31:42.800 - 00:31:52.780

it'd be very nice. Morton Marcus: It's true, but again, you know, as George was saying, at dinner, I mean, these were- these were very, very particular kind of poems. They were poems, and I- George stop

00:31:52.780 - 00:32:10.120

me because I know I'm gonna limit it too much, but they were poems really dedicated to the image, and all aspects of the image as well as outrageous, irrational outbursts, politics of all kinds, and just really wild, wonderful, imaginative

00:32:11.230 - 00:32:23.800

uses of the imagination and that's- George Hitchcock: I think it's important and editing poetry or indeed in writing and not to take oneself too seriously. And so if- if things sound outrageous, wonderful then.

00:32:24.500 - 00:32:36.500

Morton Marcus: And- and humor was- was a part of everything that went on in Kayak, even the way George described, you know that the kayak is a one-man vessel. I mean, all of this was done with a tremendous sense of humor. And one of the things

00:32:36.500 - 00:32:49.580

that made Kayak so great with the illustrations that first George did, and then a whole lot of people would send in wonderful, hilarious collages, mark articles, mark poems. Dennis Morton: All of a sudden, I've remembered little bits and

00:32:49.580 - 00:33:01.370

pieces of this two-page article that appeared in the Carlton Miscellany. It's as if it could have been written right now for our times right now. You've got- you conclude- can I read the final paragraph?

00:33:01.840 - 00:33:16.030

George Hitchcock: Please do, I'd love to be entertained. Dennis Morton: Well. Finally, Kayak is interested in the political poem, a genre which has been neglected in America since the 30s. Although Robert Bly has done yeoman's service in

00:33:16.030 - 00:33:33.670

re-vivifying it during recent years, the poet today inevitably functions as an enemy, whether covert or avowed of the society in which he lives and expressions of that antagonism which do not sacrifice poet- poetry to polemics are very much

00:33:33.700 - 00:33:43.900

in order. George Hitchcock: Hear, hear! Dennis Morton: Yeah and- and the opening part of this, of this- really is as if it could have been written two months ago when

00:33:44.110 - 00:34:02.590

Poets Against the War were starting up, the Sam Hamill. Morton Marcus: Well, Sam didn't realize it, what he- was what was going to happen at the time, but it really was a call that people in their unconscious remember from the Vietnam days,

00:34:02.920 - 00:34:17.650

and it had a response that was even like no other because it did recall that this did once happen. George Hitchcock: Well, I think that Sam has to be very much commended for taking the initiative, you know, and

00:34:17.980 - 00:34:30.040

bringing out what seems to maybe obvious. Dennis Morton: Well, yes, what something like 13,000 poems in two weeks, flooded that website. Morton Marcus: And now a new anthology for that rather-

00:34:30.040 - 00:34:44.470

George Hitchcock: What frightens me, you think 13,000 poems? How many of them could possibly be good? Dennis Morton: Well- well, he said that- that was a problem of question. But the- the very, you know, the very numbers, the very

00:34:44.470 - 00:34:53.470

response itself suggests that there's a deep undercurrent of dissatisfaction and- George Hitchcock: Well, of course, a poet doesn't exist except to be dissatisfied.

00:34:53.680 - 00:35:02.370

Dennis Morton: Yeah. George Hitchcock: We're all dissatisfied, or we wouldn't write poetry Dennis Morton: But what are you dissatisfied with, George?

00:35:02.700 - 00:35:18.180

George Hitchcock: Almost everything. Morton Marcus: And he always has been. To the benefit of a lot of the arts and a lot of people now, George, tell me if I'm wrong about this, I heard the story which I've never verified

00:35:18.180 - 00:35:30.270

with you that when you were an activist, one of the ways that the color barrier was broken in North Beach was through your efforts. George Hitchcock: Oh, that's not true.

00:35:30.270 - 00:35:42.510

Morton Marcus: Not true. Okay. George Hitchcock: No, no, I- I have always fought against the color barriers and things of that sort, but my contribution was very minimal compared to that of many people.

00:35:44.040 - 00:36:00.270

Morton Marcus: Well- George Hitchcock: Don't exaggerate, don't exaggerate. Oh, it's all right. All I can say is that it runs in my family because my great-grandfather was assassinated by the disbanded

00:36:00.270 - 00:36:12.190

Confederate soldiers for being the chairman of the first Negro voting rights Congress in New Orleans. Morton Marcus: Wow George Hitchcock: In 1866 and my whole family, from that time

00:36:12.190 - 00:36:30.100

down to the present has always been against racial prejudice and stereotyping and that sort of bullshit. Morton Marcus: Right on. Well, after your Kayak did its years in San Francisco, you came down to Santa Cruz and-

00:36:30.000 - 00:36:48.720

George Hitchcock: I was, I was invited by James B Hall, a short story writer and- and a poet, wonderful man who was the first Provost of what is now Porter college, what was then called College Five at UCSC, to come down and give a- actually come

00:36:48.720 - 00:37:09.630

down as a Regents Professor and give a class on the editing and production of literary magazines, which I did and then I liked Santa Cruz, so I moved down and became a part-time lecturer at Porter College, teaching- teaching lots of

00:37:09.630 - 00:37:28.110

things, but working only part-time, because I was writing the rest of the time or acting or doing other things. And when I finally left the 18 or 19 years later why- out of the kindness of their heart, they made me a professor of English

00:37:28.140 - 00:37:45.500

or literature or something. And they were very nice to me and I've been attempting ever since to pay it back a little. Morton Marcus: Well and let's talk about that because you did leave here, went back to Oregon where you were from, in ‘89. And

00:37:46.400 - 00:38:04.270

what is the other reason for your being here? George Hitchcock: Oh, well, we're having committee meeting on the, what is euphoniously called the Hitchcock Poetry Fund, which has been set up at Porter College by me in

00:38:04.270 - 00:38:27.040

collaboration with a Porter College exec and with the- the pro- the provost of Porter College, David Evan Jones, who is himself a composer, an artist, and a musician. And we have set up a poetry fund in order to assist in developing

00:38:27.040 - 00:38:44.950

modern poetry through readings, prizes, competitions, commissions, and the like. And we have a committee here, which advises the Provost of Porter on it and every once in awhile I put in an appearance, but that's about all.

00:38:46.180 - 00:38:57.460

Morton Marcus: Well, that's really great. And I know that next year is gonna be the first year where a whole load of these grants are going to be exercised. And one of which you told us about tonight, really thrills me tremendously and that

00:38:57.460 - 00:39:10.570

is my old friend and terrific poet, Clem Star will be down here sometime next fall as Poet in Residence. George Hitchcock: I believe he's coming down for a couple of weeks, although the details haven't been finalized.

00:39:10.570 - 00:39:17.350

Morton Marcus: Yeah. It'll be marvelous. Dennis and I actually have been trying to get- Dennis Morton: We certainly- we certainly hope he will come out Morton Marcus: I’ll bet he will

00:39:17.740 - 00:39:27.520

George Hitchcock: He would be very fine with the students and the community at large. Morton Marcus: One of the great readers, of the handful of readers of which you are one, who I think are great readers,

00:39:27.520 - 00:39:42.670

Clem Star is another one. Incredible. George Hitchcock: Fine poet, fine poet, and he also has other skills which poets ought to have. He's one of the great experts in the Northwest on door closing machines. What other

00:39:42.670 - 00:40:03.310

poet does? If you- if you have any candidates who can do it? He's- he's a specialist, he's a carpenter specialist for the University of Oregon State College or Oregon State University in Corvallis where he supervises the repair and

00:40:03.310 - 00:40:20.170

replacement of all the doors in the entire university, true occupation for a poet. Now he is finally retiring from that meritorious occupation and is available, I might say is available to both peers and poets.

00:40:20.210 - 00:40:29.490

Dennis Morton: We've got a lot of doors here in Santa Cruz, some of them open. And some- George Hitchcock: When he comes down, why- get after him because he's really an expert at it, he knows it up one side and out on

00:40:29.490 - 00:40:45.290

the other. And he's also written a charming book called ‘’Learning Russian on Company Time‘’, which shows that even while he's putting in doors, he's educating himself Morton Marcus: And went over to Russia and actually worked-

00:40:45.590 - 00:40:56.690

George Hitchcock: Actually, yes, Morton Marcus: But I dedicate- I've dedicated several poems to Clem over the last 40 years we've known each other and one of them was called the ‘’The True Cross‘’ and it talks about

00:40:56.690 - 00:41:12.590

Christ as a carpenter and I sent it to him and it‘s in two my books. And he wrote back and he said, "You know absolutely nothing about how to put any pieces of wood together." I said, "Well that's very nice. Thank you Clem."

00:41:14.960 - 00:41:24.410

George Hitchcock: Well that's leads me to a poem here which seems rather appropriate and it's called ‘’Hammer, Nails, Saw‘’. Dennis Morton: Oh, I've got that on my list as you read. Yes I do

00:41:24.410 - 00:41:40.790

George Hitchcock: All right, here it goes: HAMMER, NAILS, SAW A hammer goes to the river looking for nails. The fish dart away, they're not illiterate those fish. A saw comes by on

00:41:40.790 - 00:42:01.100

the back of a swan singing: we must learn to nail the water, we must learn to saw the air, we must learn to undress the clouds. There are gods inside waiting to get out. The mole rushes snicker, the smart fish hide in deep pools, they know a

00:42:01.100 - 00:42:21.830

thing or two, those fish. They've heard that talk before. This life isn't easy, says the hammer to the saw. I'm just doing the job I was hired to do, says the saw to the speechless river. The river with a rip down it's back, not even nails can

00:42:21.830 - 00:42:30.200

mend. Morton Marcus: I love that last line. Dennis Morton: Yeah, that was first on my list of poems to ask you to read.

00:42:30.200 - 00:42:41.240

George Hitchcock: Well, I'm glad I divined that. Dennis Morton: Do you think you could read ‘’The Swim‘’ or ‘’Records‘’? I don't have them here and- Well, I happen to know just what page they're on in the- in the

00:42:41.240 - 00:42:48.880

book. George Hitchcock: If I can read that type, I‘ll do it. Dennis Morton: Okay. Well, Morton, why don't well I'm trying to find these poems. Why don't you carry on?

00:42:49.510 - 00:42:57.490

George Hitchcock: Okay, I have another good poem here. Read with Dennis Morton: Okay. George Hitchcock: This is called:

00:42:57.520 - 00:43:12.490

THE MOUNTAINS The mountains gallop through the sky, their manes combed like saddle cinches, their saddle cinches tightened. The mountains have nostrils of ice, and their eyes are glacial lakes. I am the

00:43:12.490 - 00:43:36.340

moraine. They're bridled by wanderers with secret violins in their saddlebags, dreamers who thirst for the nectar of stones. Pilgrims who asked forgiveness of their basalt teeth who asked the mountains where they're going, and whether it's true

00:43:36.550 - 00:43:55.960

they're daughters of midnight. The mountains don't answer. They shake their white heads and pour the valleys with granite tubes. They've written far these mountains, they know a lot. They keep threatening to turn into constellations and lose

00:43:55.960 - 00:44:12.900

themselves in the vast pastures of the Milky Way. Morton Marcus: Yeah. All right. Dennis Morton: Well, here's- here's ‘’The Records‘’. And it may be- the prints too small and hold it for you there.

00:44:13.830 - 00:44:21.040

Morton Marcus: And if you've just tuned in we are talking with George Hitchcock, that's his mellifluous voice you're hearing in the background. George Hitchcock: Oh yes, well, this- this is "The Records," and

00:44:21.040 - 00:44:42.690

it's very short: RECORDS Another Russian has returned after 2 million miles in orbit. Today I sat motionless for 28 minutes while a butterfly folded

00:44:42.690 - 00:45:00.330

its trembling wings and rested on my knee. Dennis Morton: Thank you, George. Morton Marcus: So, George, you are now on your way back to Oregon from- from Mexico.

00:45:00.870 - 00:45:12.330

George Hitchcock: Yes, in a couple of days. Morton Marcus: And as we've said that you've now become totally absorbed in painting, and have actually, well, for the last 14-15 years.

00:45:13.170 - 00:45:28.590

George Hitchcock: Yes, I've been doing painting almost steadily. Dennis Morton: Including the beautiful cover on ‘’One Man Boat.‘’ I love that painting and it didn't occur to me that that's a computer that guy is typing on.

00:45:28.590 - 00:45:41.160

George Hitchcock: Oh, yes, he's typing on a computer. Dennis Morton: Yeah. And I, I had to get a- an eyeglass or- to read the last one. Well, I don't have one with me. So I can't tell you either.

00:45:41.160 - 00:45:49.110

Morton Marcus: It says, ‘’A is an apple, B is Bees. George Hitchcock: C as in comes- conundrum. Dennis Morton: Yeah. George Hitchcock: And then you can add your own last fourth

00:45:49.110 - 00:46:04.110

line because it's so small. I can't read it. Dennis Morton: Nor can I, that's the one I couldn't see. Well, let's see. I have others here. But probably- George Hitchcock: I‘ve shown a lot of paintings, I'm- Both in

00:46:04.110 - 00:46:25.740

Oregon and in Mexico, I had a big exhibit at the State Museum and Baja California Sur La Paz where I live. A one-man show there were some 65 paintings, and exhibit a lot there. My exhibit, I guess, I do most of my exhibiting in Mexico, but a

00:46:26.220 - 00:46:42.060

certain amount in and around Eugene. We're living outside of Eugene, 18 miles away in a small town in a country called Harrisburg after the capital of Pennsylvania. Dennis Morton: And you're- after Tuesday, you're driving up?

00:46:42.600 - 00:46:54.600

George Hitchcock: We're driving up where you're stopping off at my publisher's in- in Southern Oregon and see some friends and then we'll be on home by the first or second, by my birthday anyway.

00:46:55.050 - 00:47:04.410

Dennis Morton: So you mentioned at dinner that this book is a work of love on the part of the three editors, that- George Hitchcock: Yes Dennis Morton: I really wasn't your idea

00:47:04.390 - 00:47:22.000

George Hitchcock: Wasn't my idea at all, that's quite right. Since I haven't been writing any poetry for the last 10 years or 12 years, I felt it was a little presumptuous to try to bring out a book. But as I say, the two of the editors Robert McDowell and

00:47:22.000 - 00:47:42.880

Mark Jarman are both well-known poets today and were students here in the 70s, and friends. They made a poetry selection and were originally going to bring out a collected or selected work of poetry, but then they got Joseph involved. That's Joseph

00:47:42.880 - 00:47:56.950

Bednarik, who is the marketing director for Sam Hamill, Copper- Dennis Morton: Copper Canyon George Hitchcock: Copper Canyon Press, and is an old friend, and collector, and he's responsible for all the prose and actually

00:47:56.950 - 00:48:11.310

is responsible for proofreading, and the very careful attention that was paid putting this book together, he‘s the main editor. And they did it and I said, just go ahead, do what you want. Dennis Morton: What was the book-

00:48:11.000 - 00:48:23.750

George Hitchcock: I didn't- didn't read- I didn't read anything until I got final manuscript galleys. And then I promised that I- I wouldn't tinker with the text or the selections.

00:48:23.780 - 00:48:32.180

Dennis Morton: So that it comes back- George Hitchcock: Waiting for typo- typographical mistakes. Morton Marcus: Right, you became the editor's dream. Well, you reversed roles.

00:48:32.180 - 00:48:38.360

Dennis Morton: That's right. Morton Marcus: That's just amazing. I don't know whether I can- Dennis Morton: You know what else is a little bit amazing

00:48:38.360 - 00:48:52.910

George Hitchcock: What were they going to do with the book? And they're investing their time, their money, and their energy, and then I'm glad to have an editor edit, get rid of a lot of poems which neither one of them liked enough to put in a

00:48:52.910 - 00:49:04.610

book. As it is a great many of poems, they got 90 pages of poems, probably far too many. Dennis Morton: No, I don't think so. They're- they're fine poems. I've been having a great time reading.

00:49:04.610 - 00:49:15.950

George Hitchcock: It goes without saying they're fine poems. I wrote them! Dennis Morton: I was thinking, here you have Mark Jarman and Robert McDowell were associated with the new formalism movement.

00:49:15.980 - 00:49:30.140

George Hitchcock: Yes. We'd never- never agreed on poetic theory. Dennis Morton: All right, not at all , what they wrote that book ‘’Ingest‘’, what was it called? ‘’Ironclad Rules, What you Can't

00:49:30.140 - 00:49:37.800

Do in Poetry‘’. What was the- George Hitchcock: I don't know. Dennis Morton: I'll think of it. George Hitchcock: This shows you how little I‘m- I appreciate

00:49:37.800 - 00:49:47.000

the- Dennis Morton: A book of sardonic essays, ‘’thou shalt never write a poem about poetry.‘’ A whole lot of- George Hitchcock: That's a good piece of advice.

00:49:47.030 - 00:49:57.390

Dennis Morton: That was one of the best pieces of advice. Morton Marcus: But I mean, they- they were also prize students of yours though. Morton Marcus: Yeah, they really were and I- you know- knowing

00:49:54.140 - 00:50:08.730

George Hitchcock: Yes, they were. that you are hired to really talk about magazine publication, I mean, they're just the two sterling examples. They went right into it and certainly, you know, Robert is kept on with it

00:50:09.120 - 00:50:16.500

and Storyline Press is a very, very respected small press. George Hitchcock: But did- did Mark Jarman go into publishing? I didn't realize- Morton Marcus: Early on yes.

00:50:16.500 - 00:50:25.920

George Hitchcock: Well, early on he- he worked with the- with his friend Robert McDowell on a lot of things. Morton Marcus: And a magazine they put out. George Hitchcock: A magazine

00:50:25.950 - 00:50:35.940

Morton Marcus: Was it? What was it? Um, it was some death in- Dennis Morton: "The Reaper Essays," this is the book of essays I was talking about, "The Reaper Essays" Morton Marcus: It was from the Reaper magazine-

00:50:35.940 - 00:50:42.510

George Hitchcock: Exactly Dennis Morton: Right. Morton Marcus: They put that out in- from Indiana. Dennis Morton: He's quite right. But I think the point I was

00:50:42.510 - 00:50:55.350

trying to make is that if you read "The Reaper Essays," you'd think they'd never get close to a poem of yours, George but in fact, they obviously love your poetry. George Hitchcock: Well, they love it enough to choose what

00:50:55.350 - 00:51:05.790

not to run. Dennis Morton: Well, what's that- What are we looking at the clock there Morton, I can‘t see it Morton Marcus: Looking around three or four minutes. I'd love

00:51:05.790 - 00:51:13.110

George to read a few more. Dennis Morton: It would be nice if we could go out with a couple of poems- Morton Marcus: We should go out with announcing the reading and

00:51:13.650 - 00:51:23.100

one more time. Dennis Morton: When is that reading Mort? Morton Marcus: Well, let's do it after George reads some- some more poems because this program is also about letting people

00:51:23.100 - 00:51:37.770

know out there that we- that George Hitchcock is in town to give a reading from his poetry, first time since probably 1989. Dennis Morton: Mort, I've been here 20 years and I've heard about this guy from all over the place. You know, he really is a

00:51:37.770 - 00:51:44.250

legend and it's such a privilege to be sitting here talking- George Hitchcock: And I‘ll read one more poem. Dennis Morton: Alright. George Hitchcock: And this right this is- this my friends is a

00:51:44.250 - 00:52:00.570

found poem. And it's from the examination- a found poem is something which wasn't intended to be a poem but it was there, and all I did was take it and rearrange the lines a little bit. Add nothing, that nothing was added to it. The lines were

00:52:00.570 - 00:52:18.970

rearranged. That's all. And this one is entitled: THE CALL OF THE EASTERN QUAIL. And it's from the examination questions in Agnes Woodward's "Whistling As an Art" 1923. Morton Marcus: Oh yes, I know that one.

00:52:21.600 - 00:52:44.850

George Hitchcock: Naturally. What is the Huey chirp? How written by note? What is triple tonguing? The reverse chirp, how expressed? What are the [unidentified]? Define the [unidentified], define the [unidentified]. What is the

00:52:44.880 - 00:53:09.720

[unidentified]? How made, how expressed? Define the ascending and descending yodels, flipped, dipped, yodels, and quivers? What are the two liquid bird figures? What is the [unidentified]? What is the [unidentified]? How made, how

00:53:09.720 - 00:53:37.620

expressed? What is the call of the Eastern quail? What is the call of the Western quail? With tongue and teeth whistlers, what can be substituted for the yodel [unidentified], what is the way? On what pulsation do we stop?

00:53:40.900 - 00:53:54.220

Morton Marcus: And we have been Dennis Morton and I have been talking with George Hitchcock for the last hour. George is in town because his new book ‘’One Man Boat, The George Hitchcock Reader" is out, he will be giving a reading, mark this:

00:53:54.490 - 00:54:13.450

Tuesday at 6 pm, six to seven at the McHenry Library foyer you up at UCSC. So please make it up there, he is one of the great readers of poetry, one of the magnificent, as you could tell, users of language, a legendary figure in American letters. This

00:54:13.450 - 00:54:21.070

is Mort Marcus saying good night, Dennis. Dennis Morton: Good night, Morton. Good night, George. Thanks for being with us George. George Hitchcock: Good night to you all. Good night too, as

00:54:21.070 - 00:54:26.470

said, Tiny Tim. God bless everyone.