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Ellen Bass: MIGHTY STRONG POEMS, for Billy Collins. What mighty strong poems, he said, and I repeat it all day, staggering under sheaves of rejections. But my poems, oh yes, they are brawny. Even now I can see them working out at the

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gym in their tiny leopard leotards, their muscly words glazed with sweat. They are bench-pressing heavy symbolism, heaving stacks of similes, wide-stanced and grimacing. Some try so hard, though it's a lost cause. Their wrinkled syntax, no

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matter how many reps they do, will sag, but doggedly, they jog in iambic pentameter, walkmans bouncing. Some glisten with clever enjambments, end rhymes tight as green plums. Others practice caesuras in old sweats. But they're all there, huffing

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and puffing, trying their best. Even the babies, the tender first drafts, struggling just to turn over, whimpering in frustration, none of them give up. Not the short squat little haikus, or the Alexandrians trailing their long, graceful

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Isadora Duncan lines. While I fidget by the mailbox, they sail off in paper airplanes, brave as kindergarteners boarding the school bus. They're undaunted in their innocent conviction, their heartbreaking hope. They want to lift cars off pinched children,

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rescue lost and frozen wanderers. They'd bound out little whiskey barrels strapped to their necks, they dream of shrugging off their satin warm-up robes and wrestling with evil. They'd hoist the sack of ordinary days and bear it aloft

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like a crown. They believe they're needed. Even at night when I sleep, and it looks like they're sleeping, they're still at it, lying silently on the white page, doing isometrics in the dark.

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Morton Marcus: That was Ellen Bass who we'll be talking to tonight on the occasion of her new book, "Mules of Love," and her reading this Tuesday night at the Bookshop Santa Cruz. This is Mort Marcus and I'm here with Dennis Morton, my wonderful

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co-host and tonight we're here together because we are also pitching. This is pledge week at KUSP and we want to remind you that we are here through your donations. And we want to remind you to call up, support the Poetry Show, more important,

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support all the programming on KUSP. You can reach us at 476-5900, and Dennis, where else? Dennis Morton: Where else? 476-5900. What is that other number, Howard?

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Howard Feldstein: Our toll-free number is 800-655-5877. And they can also reach us on the web, www.kusp.org. Dennis Morton: Well, Howard, we're thirty years old this this month, aren't we?

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Howard Feldstein: Just a few days ago we celebrated thirty years of KUSP. Dennis Morton: On the 17th of April, that's my birthday. Howard Feldstein: Happy birthday to you and KUSP.

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Dennis Morton: Coincidence there. Howard Feldstein: And you're not a day over thirty yourself. Dennis Morton: Oh, maybe a few days. Howard Feldstein: Right.

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Dennis Morton: What's our goal here for the pledge drive, Howard? Howard Feldstein: Our goal for this pledge drive is very ambitious: $120,000 in ten days and we are now winding up the

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fifth day and we're in a very good pace. We're at $55,000 in change. Our goal tonight is to make it to $56,000, that will keep us on pace. Dennis Morton: It looks like our goal here at the Poetry Show is

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about $500. Howard Feldstein: Exactly. Dennis Morton: Our fair share. Howard Feldstein: Exactly. Each program makes a contribution to

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KUSP, and each listener makes a contribution. We're asking you to do your share and make your one phone call. That's all you're responsible for, you're one phone call. Call 476-5900, or toll-free 800-655-KUSP or again, go to our website KUSP

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dot org. Morton Marcus: And what are the pledges that people can make, Howard? Howard Feldstein: It's totally up to them. It's all on the

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honor system. What is the programming worth to you? Is it worth a $1 a day? Well, you can make that pledge. Is it worth $10 a month, you can make that pledge and you can do it all at once or parcel it out like that. We can do increment, we can do

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bill your credit card $10 a month for example, six pennies a the day- Dennis Morton: This member card level two looks pretty good to me. That's the one where for eighty bucks, you get a member

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card from KUSP that entitles you to two-for-one meals at more than thirty restaurants in the area. My gosh, I think the mathematics of that are that three or four times out, you'd save what you're paying to KUSP just in meal costs alone.

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Howard Feldstein: That's true. Dennis Morton: And- but you know to me, it's always just, in way, saying thank you, we lik what you're doing at KUSP, th many local programmers who pu in their time and their love o

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music, their love of poetry their love of the spoken word and just so many other thing that go on here, plus ou wonderful connection with NP and the different programs w get there. So this pledging which happens two or three time

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a year, very important to kee the level also of quality an the things we get from Nationa Public Radio going. So again the number is 476-5900 and we'r going to have a regular progra tonight, but we will be breakin in the middle to talk to yo

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again and then at the end. Bu right now, let us welcome ou wonderful guest. Dennis, you'v got something Yeah, I wanted to mention one more thing: the guests that I have on the Poetry Show, who com from afar to be here in Sant

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Cruz to read poetry for us an to talk with us on the Poetr Show, tell me that there aren' a lot of shows around th country on the radio devoted t poetry. And you and I wer Morton Marcus: You know, that's really true. And as I travel

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talking the other evening tha The Poetry Show is at leas twenty-two, maybe twenty-thre years old and it's right her continuously on KUSP. One o the- this is really one of th finest public radio stations i the whole of the United States

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And around and tune in to the different community radio stations, it is amazing. First of all, most of them are fed by NPR almost totally, and hardly any poetry shows on them at all.

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This really is one of the last bastions of live poetry, and we present wonderful local poets who are certainly not local in quality and are known throughout the country, such as tonight's guest, Ellen Bass and people come through and talk with you

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and come through and talk with me. We're having great fun doing it, but also it's really serving what you and I feel is important because we love poetry so much, and the three of us, including Ellen Bass and including Howard, feel that poetry is so important

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at all times and especially these times. Dennis Morton: We're here in the middle of this and we sometimes take it for granted but it's just not a typical thing out there in the country, so.

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Howard Feldstein: With that in mind, let me give the phone numbers, I'll jump off the microphone and take the call or the lovely and talented Billie Harris will take your call or Karen, others. 476-5900 or toll-free 800-655-KUSP or if you

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want to keep listening to the poetry, you can pledge on the web while you're doing that at KUSP.org. Morton Marcus: And by the way, that very cool professional voice, who we address as Howard is Howard Feldstein, who is the

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real pro here of the four of us. Thanks for being on and helping us out, Howard. Ellen, it's so wonderful to have you here and on what a great occasion. A beautiful looking book and it's just filled with celebrations of life, love poems, meditations, a

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sense of life that really is very positive, but is in many, many times, very, very hard-won positive sense of life. Some of these poems are very tough minded. Ellen Bass: Thank you, thank you and I'm so happy to be here. And

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you know, you're the person who introduced me the very first time I read poetry. Morton Marcus: I remember, that was a long time ago. Ellen Bass: 1974

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Morton Marcus: You were still so young, how could that be! Ellen Bass: I was just thinking the same thing. Morton Marcus: Oh, could you read us some of the poems that you would really want people to hear out there? I mean, the book

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is divided into love poems, domestic poems, poems of memory, and as well as these meditations on the world, some really tough poems like mutilation of children and things like that and growing, and nature, and the life force just keeps moving

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again and again in these poems. So, please take it away and read some. Ellen Bass: Oh good. Well, I'll start with one. That's one of my favorite poems, it's called, "Jack Gottlieb's In Love." And

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it is, I think, a love- it's definitely a love poem, and it's also one of the hard-won, talk about hard-won love poems. JACK GOTTLIEB'S IN LOVE I'm talking to Jack Gottlieb's son, my childhood friend from

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Pleasantville. He was a skinny, dark-haired guy with a neck thin as the stalk of a dahlia. We lived in railroad apartments over our parents' stores, "Jack's Army and Navy, Hy-Grade Wines & Liquors." Now he's balding, and quadriplegic from

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the kiss of an eight axle truck. "My father's got a girlfriend," he tells me, "he's having more sex than you and me and both our neighborhoods combined." I picture Jack Gottlieb, eighty-six, stroking the loosened skin of his beloved,

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puckered as fruit left too long on the limb, skin softened the way I once read a pregnant woman, stranded alone in a hut in Alaska, softened to hide for her baby's birth, chewing it hours and hours each day. Life has been gnawing Jack Gottlieb

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like that. First his son, stricken, stripped down to sheer being, his daughter dead of brain cancer, and his wife following like earth into that grave. Comes love and all the cells in Jack's old organ stir, the heart, which had been ready

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to kick back and call it a day, signs on for another stint. The blood careens through the crusted arteries like a teenage skateboarder. He kisses each separate knob of her spine, the shallow basin of her belly, her balding pudendum, crowning it

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like a queen. The sad nave that's hung between his legs, extraneous and out of date, ill fitting as his old vest is now steam-pressed and ready for the ball. Comes love, Jack Gottlieb enters her over and over, he's a child sledding down a hill and

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climbing up again, face flushed, hot breath visible in the twilight. He can't believe her goodness. Life, that desperate addict has mugged and robbed him on the street and then she appears, taking his head in her palms. He handles her reverently

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as though she were the Rosetta Stone, revealing what lies beyond hope. He scoops her into his hands and she pours through his fingers again and again. Morton Marcus: Wow, that's wonderful. And one thing this

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book has, I always have difficulty describing the sexual organs, but I've never read so many varieties of describing sexual organs so perfectly original and beautiful. Dennis Morton: Which reminds me, Mort, we might as well say right

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now that there- it's possible that some people listening to the show tonight could be offended by certain words. And if there are those out there who think they may be among them, they should probably tune out for the next forty-five minutes.

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Morton Marcus: Yeah, and, unfortunately have to say that. But don't tune out because you're gonna miss some really beautiful poetry and all of the descriptions are just full of love and joy, sometimes a sad joy but joy, so hang in there.

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That poem, by the way, gets expanded later on in the book in, "I Love the Way Men Crack." Ellen Bass: Yes. Morton Marcus: And that's a marvelous poem. You don't have

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to read that but it widens in scope then and Jack Gottlieb is just one of many. Dennis Morton: I want to ask Ellen a question. First of all three cheers for Jack Gottlieb. Three cheers for you for letting

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us know about Jack Gottlieb. But here's a question: some poets that I talked to say, "how dare you assume that anything that's in my poems is actually real?" and others will say, "well, of course, everything I write about is real." Where do you come in

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on that spectrum? Ellen Bass: Well, some are and some aren't. Sometimes when I read that, when I do preface it by saying that it's a true story because it is. And my friend Dan told me that his father spent

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most of his inheritance on Viagra. And he, Jack, died recently. And- Morton Marcus: I mean, you can buy worse things, Ellen. Ellen Bass: That's right. So, that's a true story. One of the

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things I'm finding and some of these poems are written in the first person and in my voice, but they're not my experience. And actually I'm finding more and more that that's happening for me, and I was a little bit hesitant at first because there

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are poems, you know, we're very familiar with persona poems where the poet really takes on the voice of someone else. But this is a little bit different because it is my voice, it sounds like it's me, but I'm really using somebody else's

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experience. And I find that I'm only doing it when I can feel, when I do feel so taken by that experience, and when it has enough resonance, then in some way, I feel like I can make it be mine, I can, I guess maybe it's imagine myself into their

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experience. And sometimes it's also mixed in with things that did happen to me, but not all of it did. So I find that in my early years, pretty much all of my poetry at least had its basis in something that happened to me, but it's changing now and it

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doesn't. Morton Marcus: That's great and Dennis knows that I've been talking about this, the loss of the imagination in a lot of American poetry that I'm finding as I go around and teach

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workshops that people can't imagine that there's more than the confessional poem, and the imagination has suddenly began to atrophy. Ellen Bass: Yeah.

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Morton Marcus: And I think that's really too bad. But then this is great to hear, you know, that these voices are taking over. I use the old idea that voices are dictating through me and so that and this new book of mine is just full of different

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voices, which can sound exactly like me, except some of them are three hundred years old. Ellen Bass: Right. Morton Marcus: We're talking from the French Revolution, so

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it's a little impossible. Anyway, let us go on to another poem. Ellen Bass: Okay. How about if I read this one about, well, it has a very long title and it's from an account that I actually

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read in our own local paper, the Santa Cruz Sentinel, and the long title gives you the facts from that newspaper article. The title is: IN WHICH A DEER IS FOUND IN A BUBBLE BATH, HAVING ENTERED THE

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HOUSE, TURNED ON THE FAUCET, KNOCKED OVER THE BOTTLE, AND STEPPED IN - NOT NECESSARILY IN THAT ORDER Did he hear splashing as he tossed his keys on the counter, or was the deer composed by then, on all fours, suds

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swirling around its delicate ankles like a person standing in shallow surf? Or did it lower itself like a sphinx, the line of wet fur dark around its neck trimmed with an Elizabethan collar of foam? Perhaps, when it felt the water warm as sunshine,

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smelled the rose-scented froth, it leaned back, resting the separate knobs of its vertebrae on the plump plastic cushion, relaxing like a woman after a long shift at work. If so, did the man know what to do? Did he pour two gin and tonics, carry

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them on the silver tray his mother left him, along with a stack of ecru towels, then sit on the lid of the toilet and ask her about her day? Dennis Morton: And it's great fun, but there are, throughout

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these poems, just these wonderful phrases and images. The suds about her neck "like wet dark fur around its neck trimmed with an Elizabethan collar of foam." I mean, just one poem after another just astonishing moments of very

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brilliant, vivid description and wonderful phrasing. So it was just a joy for me to go from one poem to another and just see this and we will be hearing this. And out there, you know, hear it and as I always say to the young poets out there,

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listen to how concrete and how hard Ellen has searched for the exact right word and phrase here to really render the experience. It really is worth just reading this book as a how-to in writing poetry I think. "Mules of Love," is what Ellen is reading from,

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her new book. And we'll say it again but might as well say it now, on Tuesday at 7:30pm, Ellen will be reading with Alison Luterman and just all everyone show up. It is one of the four Tuesday nights of poetry-

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Five Tuesdays. Morton Marcus: I'm sorry., that Dennis and his Poetry Santa Cruz is putting out, why don't you tell us a little bit about them? Dennis Morton: Well, this is in honor of National Poetry Month,

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April is always National Poetry Month. And there are five Tuesdays in the month of April this year. And Bookshop Santa Cruz was kind enough to let us use the bookshop venue for five successive poetry readings and Ellen's is the penultimate

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reading to be followed by the Poetry Marathon a week later on the 30th of April. This was April, yes, it is. This is April. April the 30th year of the of the beginning of KUSP Public Radio.

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Where we are also pitching tonight and if you are interested, just call in your pledge, it can be anything you want. You can talk to the people here about that. 476-5900 but now, we're going right back to our guests tonight, Ellen Bass.

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Ellen, another poem. Ellen Bass: I'd like to read this poem. It's called: AND WHAT IF I SPOKE OF DESPAIR And what if I spoke of despair? Who doesn't feel it? Who doesn't

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know the way it seizes, leaving us limp, deafened by the slosh of our own blood rushing through the narrow personal channels of grief. It's beauty that brings it on, calls it out from the wings for one more song. Rain pooled on a fallen oak leaf,

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reflecting the pale cloudy sky, dark canopy of foliage not yet fallen. Or the red moon in September, so large you have to pull over at the top of Bayona and stare like a photo of a lover in his uniform, not yet gone. Or your own cell as a

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child on that day your family stayed at the sea, watching the sun drift down, lazy as a beach ball and you fell asleep with sand in the crack of your smooth behind. That's when you can't deny it. Water, air, they're still here like a mother's

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palms, sweeping hair off our brow, her scent swirling around us. But now, your own car is pumping poison, delivering its fair share of destruction. We've created a salmon with the red, white and blue shining on one side. Frog genes spliced into

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tomatoes, as if the tomato hasn't been humiliated enough. I heard a man argue that genetic engineering was more dangerous than a nuclear bomb. Should I be thankful he was alarmed by one threat, or worried he'd gotten used to the other. Maybe I can't

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offer you any more than you can offer me, but what if I stopped on the trail with shreds of Manzanita bark lying in russet scrolls, and yellow bay leaves, little lanterns in the dim afternoon and cradled despair in my arms the way I held my own

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babies after they'd fallen asleep, when there was no reason to hold them, only, I didn't want to put them down. Dennis Morton: That's a beautiful poem, Ellen. That's really beautiful. It's a political poem that manages also

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to be a celebration of nature. It's quite amazing. Morton Marcus: And so many of the poems are like that. And this whole sections she's reading from, which is number four, does have this uniting of the political and the outer

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world that's going on. Hey, let's have you read a real hard poem right now, which is called, "Bearing Witness." And I think this really is, you know, as I've also been saying, we have to be timely as poets and yet timeless at the same time, and

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I'm afraid this is all too timely now. Ellen Bass: I wrote this poem – it's dedicated to a woman named Jackie B. – and I wrote it because she asked me. I was going to talk about it- I was going to speak at a conference

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some years back for survivors of child sexual abuse and people who work with them, and she asked me if I would speak about extreme abuse, ritual, sadistic abuse, because even at conferences for survivors, often, that was avoided. And I

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said that I would, and it made me want to write this poem. I didn't get it written in time for the conference but I did keep working on it. It was a very hard poem for me to write because I've worked in this field for a long time but it is

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hard for me, it's very hard to write political poems that don't get just kind of polemic, you know, just kind of rhetorical and just kind of, you know, going- going on and on with my ideas about things and instead really become poems, so I worked

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on it for a long time and it's called: BEARING WITNESS, and it begins with an epigraph from Holly Near: "If you have lived it, then it seems I must hear it."

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When the long-fingered leaves of the sycamore flutter in the wind, spiky seed balls swinging, and a child throws his aqua lunch bag over the school yard railing, the last thing, the very last thing you want to think about is what happens to

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children when they're crushed like grain in the worn mortar of the cruel. We weep at tragedy, a baby sailing through the windshield like a cabbage, a shoe. The young remnants of war, arms sheared and eyeless, they lie like eggs on the rescue

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center's bare floor. But we draw a line at the sadistic as if our yellow plastic tape would keep harm confined. We don't want to know what generations of terror do to the young who are fed like cloth under the machine's relentless needle. In the paper,

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we'll read about the ordinary neighbor who chopped up boys; at the movies we pay to shoot up that adrenaline rush, and the spent aftermath, relief like a long-awaited piss. But face to face with a living prey, we turn away, rev the motor, as though

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we've seen a ghost, which in a way we have: one who wanders the world, tugging on sleeves, trying to find the road home. And if we stop, all our fears will come to pass. The knowledge of evil will coat us like grease from a long shift at the

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griddle. Our sweat will smell like the sweat of the victims. And this is why you do it. Listen at the outskirts of what our species has accomplished, listen until the world is flat again, and you are standing on its edge. This is why you hold

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them in your arms, allowing their snot to smear your skin, their sour breath to mist your face. You listen to slash the membrane that divides us, to plant the hard shiny seed of yourself in the common earth. You crank open the rusty hinge

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of your heart like an old beach umbrella. Because God is not a flash of diamond light. God is the kicked child, the child who rocks alone in the basement, the one fucked so many times she does not know her name, her mind burning like a star.

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Dennis Morton: And we are talking to Ellen Bass, who is reading from her poems, "Mules of Love," and who will read this Tuesday at 7:30 with Alison Luterman at the Bookshop Santa Cruz in downtown Santa Cruz, try to make it. I also want to say

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that Ellen Bass teaches classes and has for years and years been celebrated. I would call them seminars in poetry. And if you are interested in getting in touch with her, you can call 426-8006, that's 426-8006 or you can get in touch with her by

00:27:30.900 - 00:27:50.220

internet www dot Ellen Bass, that's E-L-L-E-N-B-A-S-S.com. It's www.EllenBass.com. And we will continue talking to Ellen after we take a break, give you more public announcements, and also talk to you about one of the things we're doing here

00:27:50.220 - 00:29:01.340

tonight, which is pitching for the Poetry Show. Howard Feldstein: Listen to KUSP, Santa Cruz, Monterey, San Benito, San Luis Obispo, and on the web at KUSP.org. We're halfway through the Poetry Show, we're also about halfway through

00:29:01.340 - 00:29:15.380

our pledge drive here at KUSP, we're raising $120,000 in ten days, or less, if we can keep the momentum going. We're about halfway there. We're looking for your call to keep this going. You're support of the poetry show and all of the other

00:29:15.380 - 00:29:26.960

programs here in KUSP, the station that brings you the Poetry Show. We also bring you From the Bookshelf coming up at the end of this program at nine o'clock, Billie Harris will be here to host Thomas Pistole for a return visit reading, more of

00:29:26.960 - 00:29:39.290

the hilarious stories of Linda Berry. That's at nine o'clock tonight. Also, in the literary vein, we bring you the program Radiogram every Monday at noon, and tomorrow Eric Scheck welcomes Laurie King back for another installment of her

00:29:39.290 - 00:29:53.450

compelling Mary Russell Sherlock Holmes novels, the latest is called, "Justice Hall." Also Dan Bessie discusses his new edited book of his father's memoir, "The Spanish Civil War Notebooks of Alva Bessie." That's Radiogram tomorrow at noon right

00:29:53.450 - 00:30:06.080

here on your listener supported radio station KUSP. And Eric Scheck always is sure to include that little line in his promos for his programs, your listener supported public radio station, that's what we are. We depend on you, the listener, for support.

00:30:06.650 - 00:30:24.530

Morton Marcus: And we definitely do and this is a pitch night on KUSP. Dennis, we are asking the people out here to give us around $500 tonight so that we can get up to what we hope will be $5,600-

00:30:24.680 - 00:30:35.930

Howard Feldstein: $56,000. Dennis Morton: You know, the last time I looked at that board, we had about three calls in from the last flurry of calls when we made our appeal at the top of the hour, and that

00:30:35.960 - 00:30:44.520

amounts to about $220. We're considerably short of where we need to be right now. Morton Marcus: We have the names of any of those Howard Feldstein: Let me think, yeah. Actually we're kind of on

00:30:42.350 - 00:30:53.160

people. target with three calls the first break and we're gonna have another break here, we can get three or four more calls will get us to our goal. I want to thank Climbing Son of Aptos.

00:30:53.460 - 00:31:04.680

Morton Marcus: I love Climbing Son. Howard Feldstein: Yes, he's a continuing supporter. As is Susan of Ben Lomond and Wilma of Santa Cruz. Morton Marcus: Wilma of Santa Cruz, interesting name.

00:31:04.680 - 00:31:13.210

Dennis Morton: There are many Wilmas in the world, Mort. Morton Marcus: That is true. Howard Feldstein: Also on the web we had Andy check in, also from Santa Cruz, pledging support. So all of that, we

00:31:13.210 - 00:31:24.040

thank each of those people. We want to thank you as well if you're one of the folks about seven hundred who have pledged so far this drive, we thank you and your part is done. But if you have not yet contributed, now's your chance to call

00:31:24.040 - 00:31:40.070

476-5900, or 800-655-5877. Morton Marcus: And now is the perfect time to do it before we get back to Ellen Bass and have her read more poetry. There are some more announcements that we have to make. One is this Friday

00:31:40.070 - 00:31:56.240

night at 7:30 at Louden Nelson in the Louden Nelson Poetry series. There's someone who's taking their cue perfectly. They say we don't want to interrupt Ellen Bass' poetry. But this Friday at 7:30pm at Louden Nelson Poetry series, Tillie

00:31:56.240 - 00:32:15.140

Shaw, wonderfully original poet will have a book out soon, will be reading with Jennifer Pittman, the wonderful Karen Yamashita and Micah Parks, I'm sorry, Perks. Micah Perks. Okay, I got that and destroyed that nicely. So, that is another

00:32:15.200 - 00:32:31.730

regular series that is going on in Santa Cruz and has been going on for years, 7:30 this Friday at Louden Nelson. One of the things that Dennis has established with a great deal of energy are the Tuesday readings, usually the first or the second

00:32:31.730 - 00:32:43.280

week of every month, but now five times this month because it's National Poetry Month. Tell us about what's going to happen this week and maybe in a week or two. Dennis Morton: Well, this week the 23rd of April at 7:30 at

00:32:43.280 - 00:32:59.780

Bookshop Santa Cruz, Ellen, our guest this evening, Ellen Bass will be reading in celebration of, "Mules of Love," her book, her new book from Boa Editions in Rochester, New York and some of the blurbs on the back are just wonderful. Some of the- som

00:32:59.780 - 00:33:11.230

of the biggest names in America poetry have seen and loved thi book and Morton Marcus: And my old buddy, Dorianne Laux , has written a marvelous introduction to this. In fact, Ellen now joins the

00:33:11.230 - 00:33:27.640

three graces as I call them, which is Dorianne Laux, my dear friend, Kim Addonizio, and now you are really the third eminent woman author that I know that Boa is handling so, congratulations. And Ray Gonzalez, of course, is handled

00:33:27.640 - 00:33:36.790

by Boa, just a marvelous, marvelous line of poetry books. Ellen Bass: Really good company there. Morton Marcus: Very good company. Dennis Morton: Dorianne will be reading as part of this series

00:33:36.820 - 00:33:50.140

in June. I think it's June 25th. Wait, Mort, we also have readings on the fourth Tuesday, not at Bookshop usually but somewhere in the county. We usually sponsor a reading on the fourth Tuesday of every month.

00:33:50.140 - 00:33:59.380

Morton Marcus: And everyone can hear about that by just listening to the Poetry Show every week. Dennis Morton: All right, you know, I should probably give the URL for Poetry Santa Cruz website. It's

00:34:00.790 - 00:34:14.110

www.PoetrySantaCruz.org. It contains most of the information, more information than you'll probably want to know about what's happening on the local poetry scene, not just readings sponsored by Poetry Santa Cruz, but the reading on

00:34:14.110 - 00:34:25.170

Friday night and every piece of information we can get about poetry goes on that website. Morton Marcus: And I bet that it is going to have, if it doesn't yet, the fact that on April 30th, which is also a Tuesday,

00:34:25.410 - 00:34:43.590

Ellen is going to be reading at 7pm at CSU Monterey Bay, the wonderful new college that's down near Monterey, in a series that I just in fact attended two weeks ago. That's CSU Monterey down there, all the people in that part of the bay can hear

00:34:43.590 - 00:34:55.630

Ellen Bass on Tuesday at 7pm. So- Dennis Morton: Which explains why Ellen won't be reading in the Poetry Marathon this year, which is also on the 30th at Bookshop Santa Cruz. The Poetry Marathon will have about thirty

00:34:55.630 - 00:35:13.660

poets reading this year. All right, we need to remind our listeners that we're looking for more calls of support. The number here is 476-5900, or you can call toll-free 800-655-5877. We'd love to hear from some folks who are listening courtesy

00:35:13.660 - 00:35:26.770

of KBDH, which stretches all the way into San Luis Obispo County. The Poetry Show is going right down the coast. Who's our poet friend down there in San Louis Obispo? Michael Hannon! Morton Marcus: Michael Hannon, sure.

00:35:27.220 - 00:35:36.600

Dennis Morton: So- Morton Marcus: And Jean [unidentified] is down there also. I mean, a lot of poets down there, a really very active scene, it's a wonderful town. [Cross talk] down there, San

00:35:36.600 - 00:35:41.200

Luis Obispo. Dennis Morton: Yeah. Morton Marcus: It's here you said what poetry I- Dennis Morton: Let's hear something from San Luis Obispo.

00:35:41.230 - 00:35:59.080

And in that case, just call toll-free 1-800-655-5877, again 1-800-655-5877. Howard Feldstein: I have another person to thank, want to thank Len from Santa Cruz for his contribution so he joins the

00:35:59.080 - 00:36:08.320

others in supporting the Poetry Show. It says he loves the Poetry Show and loves the news as well. Whatever it is that you like about KUSP, we're the station that brings you the Poetry Show every week, not only with Morton Marcus and Dennis

00:36:08.320 - 00:36:15.210

Morton, but also with Kim Nelson. Dennis Morton: Yes. Howard Feldstein: As part of the cohosting team here. Dennis Morton: Thank you for mentioning Kim's name, [cross

00:36:15.210 - 00:36:23.590

talk] amiss not having mentioned it. Howard Feldstein: And she brings a whole other dimension to it on her turn every third week. It's your support that makes it possible. We thank you if you called in, but again, if you

00:36:23.590 - 00:36:38.860

haven't, now's the time to do so. 476-5900 or toll-free 800-655-5877, or you can go to the website KUSP.org. It's secure, you can do it while you listen to Ellen Bass and Morton Marcus and Dennis Morton doing the Poetry Show.

00:36:39.010 - 00:36:49.750

Dennis Morton: Howard, we know that most of the people who call in to support KUSP don't do it in expectation of something coming back to them other than the knowledge and the good feeling that they've supported KUSP.

00:36:49.780 - 00:36:57.780

Howard Feldstein: Well, it's the great programming, that's what they get. Dennis Morton: Well, that's what they get, yes. But this KUSP two for one card just amazes me. I mean-

00:36:58.200 - 00:37:02.160

Howard Feldstein: Several callers have taken advantage of that. Dennis Morton: Yeah. Howard Feldstein: Pledge $80 or more, every pledge of 80 o

00:37:02.160 - 00:37:12.210

more will receive this card which entitles you to a free inner when you buy one at any ne of the thirty or Dennis Morton: Thirty restaurants in our area, and there will probably be more.

00:37:12.240 - 00:37:20.550

Howard Feldstein: Correct. Morton Marcus: You know, can we get back to- Howard Feldstein: I'll just give the numbers and we'll return to Ellen. 476-5900 or-

00:37:20.610 - 00:37:36.720

Dennis Morton: Or 1-800-655-5877, or you can reach us on the web KUSP.org, www.KUSP.org. All right, we'd love to hear those phones ringing and I'm sure that it would be music to Ellen's ears, like a chorus in the back.

00:37:36.720 - 00:37:50.860

Ellen Bass: It would indeed. Morton Marcus: I'm just sitting here and I just sort of put it in like that. Ellen, I would like to to read another kind of poem that you do, which is poems about your children, poems about

00:37:50.860 - 00:38:07.750

your lover, but there's one here that's just so marvelous. It's just such a wonderfully simple but poignant little insight, why we cry at weddings, you know? You always wonder, you see people are breaking up in tears, men and women, what is the

00:38:07.750 - 00:38:20.430

reason that people are crying at weddings? And you have a just, boy, it was just so wonderful to read this. The name of the poem that I'm looking for it here, I just had it- Ellen Bass: "After Our Daughter's Wedding."

00:38:20.430 - 00:38:34.150

Morton Marcus: Yes, that's- Ellen Bass: Sure, I'd like to read this one. AFTER OUR DAUGHTER'S WEDDING While the remnants of cake and half-empty champagne glasses lay

00:38:34.150 - 00:38:54.430

on the lawn like sunbathers lingering in the slanting light, we left the house guests and drove to Antonelli's pond. On a log by the bank I sat in my flowered dress and cried. A lone fisherman drifted by, casting his ribbon of light. "Do you

00:38:54.430 - 00:39:13.540

feel like you've given her away?" you asked. But no, it was that she made it to here, that she didn't drown in a well or die of pneumonia or take the pills. She wasn't crushed under the mammoth wheels of a semi on Highway 17, wasn't found lying

00:39:13.540 - 00:39:33.280

in the alley that night after rehearsal when I got the time wrong. It's animal. The egg not eaten by a weasel. Turtles crossing the beach, exposed in the moonlight. And we have so few to start with. And that long gestation, like carrying your

00:39:33.280 - 00:39:52.150

soul out in front of you. All those years of feeding and watching. The vulnerable hollow at the back of the neck. Never knowing what could pick them off, a seagull swooping down for a clam. Our most basic imperative: for them to survive.

00:39:52.720 - 00:40:03.030

And there's never been a moment we could count on it. Dennis Morton: Oh, Ellen. Jeez. Morton Marcus: That's something. Dennis Morton: There's not a parent alive who doesn't just

00:40:03.030 - 00:40:14.490

vibrate to that. Morton Marcus: Or who never realized, you know, why they were crying, what they, you know, the poet again puts it in words and what words! I mean, just again, that's- what is

00:40:14.490 - 00:40:28.180

poetry in the end? It's language. And that's what really gets the whole thing over and there's just not a wrong move in that whole poem. It's just beautiful, the rhythms, go on. Dennis Morton: That line, "that long gestation, like carrying

00:40:28.180 - 00:40:40.060

your soul out in front of you," it's- gosh! Morton Marcus: It's just one phrase after another in this book, just in every poem, there are three, four, or five of them, just really marvelous. Let's hear some more.

00:40:40.090 - 00:40:54.970

Dennis Morton: Well, you know, before we read some more poems, I'd like to ask Ellen some questions. I- you know, because this is a rare opportunity for, you know, at least a thousand listeners out there to hear Ellen talk about how-

00:40:55.000 - 00:41:07.190

Morton Marcus: Sure, I thought it was some forty thousand? Dennis Morton: Well, there are about a thousand listeners to the Poetry Show. I mean, that's what I understand anyway. And you know, folks, I don't know how I got that wrong, Mort.

00:41:08.390 - 00:41:14.710

Anyway, there are at least a thousand and maybe forty thousand- Ellen Bass: Maybe a million,. Dennis Morton: Maybe a million!

00:41:14.980 - 00:41:24.070

Morton Marcus: I think so. Ellen Bass: The whole country basically! Dennis Morton: We could have the whole world listening on the web, we don't know. But it's a rare opportunity to have Ellen

00:41:24.070 - 00:41:37.930

respond to some questions about writing and the book itself, because hopefully, people are going to have a chance to hear Ellen read her poems on Tuesday night or the following Tuesday in Monterey, or some other time, but how often do we get to ask

00:41:37.930 - 00:41:48.320

you questions? This book is how long in the making? Ellen Bass: Eighteen years. Dennis Morton: Eighteen years? Wow. You know, the only other poet around here I know who can say the same thing is Joe

00:41:48.320 - 00:41:55.520

Stroud. His last book was eighteen years in the making. Ellen Bass: Is that right? Dennis Morton: Yeah. Ellen Bass: Well, yeah, it's been eighteen years since I

00:41:55.520 - 00:42:15.470

published a book of poetry. And I mean, in a way, it's not quite fair to say eighteen in the making, because some of those years, I really wasn't writing because I was writing non-fiction books and working in other ways. But I would say

00:42:15.470 - 00:42:28.870

really a good ten years of working at it. Dennis Morton: What's the longest you've gone without writing a poem? Ellen Bass: I don't know for sure. But I do find it almost

00:42:28.870 - 00:42:48.250

impossible to write poetry when I'm writing a non-fiction book. My brain, at the end of the day of working mentally that hard on making sentences – which I think every sentence is hard to write, for me, there are no easy sentences – so at the end of the

00:42:48.250 - 00:43:01.510

day, even if I have something I'd like to say in poetry, my brain says, "You've got to be kidding!" Dennis Morton: So as a writer then, there's- I mean, you write both poetry and non-fiction. Is there a large emotional

00:43:01.510 - 00:43:23.910

difference between the two? Ellen Bass: Totally for me. A poetry for me is very personal and it's really, it's a passion. And it's the deepest thing that I want to do and it comes from my own need. And the non-fiction

00:43:23.910 - 00:43:44.460

books that I've written are not personal in that way. I mean, obviously, I put a huge amount of myself into them, but they're really about having something that I think other people need to read, and I have the ability to write so that they can have

00:43:44.460 - 00:43:58.830

it. But so that they are really- it's really service, the non-fiction books that I've written have been service. They haven't been what I just wanted to do with my time. Dennis Morton: So, the poetry you write for yourself?

00:43:58.830 - 00:44:12.570

Ellen Bass: Yeah, it's really about what I want to do, it's totally, you know, my mud pie. Morton Marcus: Okay, it's your mud pie, but how does it get from, let's say, being journal-writing to poetry?

00:44:12.000 - 00:44:31.290

Ellen Bass: Well, that yeah, journal-writing does not interest me much anymore. I mean, in the very early years of writing it did, but what's really the exciting thing to me is the craft and, you know, working the language, and a lot

00:44:31.290 - 00:44:46.440

of that is about the reader. I mean, you can't make a poem- I mean it's for me, but it's for the reader. Morton Marcus: See, so many young poets don't really realize that, that the craft is really about how you communicate-

00:44:46.440 - 00:44:49.110

Ellen Bass: Right Morton Marcus: What is most private- Ellen Bass: That's right. Morton Marcus: -to the other.

00:44:49.140 - 00:45:02.640

Ellen Bass: Exactly. Morton Marcus: And that's where the art comes in. Ellen Bass: That's right, yeah. Because you are trying to, well, I'm trying to find these places, find words for what I experience

00:45:02.640 - 00:45:19.890

and what I feel. And I find that in general conversation, it doesn't communicate very well, you know, I often feel that I haven't even begun to communicate at all, you know, something to me is, for example, very funny and I tell somebody

00:45:19.890 - 00:45:44.160

about it and they don't laugh. But in the poem, I can, you know, keep working it until what seems so funny to me, just a crack up to me, you know, somebody else, even somebody I've never met, can see that it's funny. So, you know, that's

00:45:44.160 - 00:45:58.440

really, really satisfying. Dennis Morton: Ellen, would I be putting you on the spot to ask you to attempt to give us the ABCs of advice that you'd give to aspiring writers, young or old, but people who are maybe

00:45:58.440 - 00:46:14.960

just starting out? Ellen Bass: Well, persevere, that's a really big one. Because I think that writing is deceptive like, we wouldn't expect ourselves to sit down at a musical instrument that we've

00:46:14.960 - 00:46:33.050

never played before, and fool around for a few hours, and really get competent at it or even for a few weeks. You know, we have this understanding that it's a skill and you have to study it and you have to keep with it. But because we all

00:46:33.050 - 00:46:49.700

speak and we all write, we have a kind of feeling that we ought to be able to just, then, write. And there are some talented people who do that. I mean, they sit down and they, you know, write an amazing first novel that they didn't even try

00:46:49.700 - 00:47:08.030

beforehand, and you know, we all just are spellbound. But for me, and most people, that's not what happens. And so, to be willing to persevere and be willing to be a beginner, really your whole life, I mean, you know, it is that Zen mind, beginner's mind,

00:47:08.030 - 00:47:29.270

I mean, the more you can see yourself as a beginner. And with my students, at a certain point, almost all my students walk in one day, look at me and say, this is really hard. And at that point, I always just light up with a huge smile, because I

00:47:29.270 - 00:47:41.390

know that they're hooked. I know that they're really starting to get what it's about when they say that, and they might have come in incredibly discouraged, but I'm just like, laughing, you know, and they look at me like, what are you laughing at? And I

00:47:41.390 - 00:47:49.800

go, you know, you've got it now. You're really going to come forward. Dennis Morton: Can you see the fruits of that perseverance in your own writing?

00:47:50.050 - 00:48:07.960

Ellen Bass: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And the second advice would be, to be really, really discriminating about the help and support that you get, but to get it, and that's made a huge difference. I started studying with Dorianne Laux about, well,

00:48:07.960 - 00:48:24.580

not sure how long ago now, maybe about four years ago, and becoming a student again and having a mentor and really, you know, getting the right person for me, she's just been an incredible teacher, has made all the difference in the world.

00:48:24.580 - 00:48:43.870

Because I was really stuck at a certain level of a certain plateau where I had my strengths and I had my weaknesses and I couldn't do anything about the weaknesses. I just couldn't. I mean, the only way- every time I tried to move forward, the ways

00:48:43.870 - 00:49:00.490

that I was trying to adress the weaknesses would screw up the strengths. And, you know, my strength is, I think, a kind of a very personal conversational voice. It's very accessible, but the weaknesses were a kind of sloppiness in- I mean, I've

00:49:00.520 - 00:49:17.170

always had a lot of good metaphors but there was a sort of sloppiness in the language and a kind of rangey-ness in the poems and the conversational voice kind of sliding off into a very ordinary voice that was not- yeah, it was natural but it

00:49:17.170 - 00:49:31.600

wasn't interesting. But as I would try and address that, I would lose what I had. So, it was just kind of you know, try to pick up one thing and something else falling off. And it wasn't really until I started working with Dorianne that I

00:49:31.600 - 00:49:41.530

started to get a sense of how I could work with that. Morton Marcus: Could I- did you go to Oregon? Ellen Bass: No, we worked by phone. Morton Marcus: Oh, really?

00:49:41.530 - 00:49:54.100

Ellen Bass: Yeah, we worked by phone several hours a week for maybe a year and a half and then less after that. Morton Marcus: She's just marvelous. Ellen Bass: She's amazing.

00:49:54.100 - 00:50:03.130

Morton Marcus: And her poetry is just skyrocketing. Ellen Bass: Amazing, she's breathtaking. Oh, and she's an incredible teacher. Morton Marcus: Great.

00:50:04.270 - 00:50:18.910

Dennis Morton: So this is rare to have a poet be able to talk about the advice in terms of her own development. So, you should ask this question more maybe? Well, I do ask this, but this was a unique response to it.

00:50:19.440 - 00:50:34.380

Ellen Bass: Yeah, I needed a teacher really desperately. I went to Dorianne and I sent her my manuscript and asked her for help. And she said, yes, but she was busy. There were a number of things happening in her life. And I said, okay, and so I

00:50:34.380 - 00:50:47.910

called her back three months later, and she said yes, it's at the top of my list, but you know, this, this and that. And I waited another three or four months, I called her back and I said, Dorianne, I'm grown up. I can wait and wait and wait,

00:50:47.940 - 00:51:03.090

that's alright, but you have to tell me that a day will come when you can help me and if you tell me that, then I won't, you know, I won't give up. I'll just keep waiting. And she's- of course really cracked up and she said, hang up right now, call me

00:51:03.090 - 00:51:11.010

back in half an hour. I'll read what I can read in half an hour and we'll start to talk. Morton Marcus: She wasn't putting you off. She is so busy. Ellen Bass: I know.

00:51:11.790 - 00:51:23.550

Morton Marcus: It's amazing. Ellen Bass: So for many, many weeks, I'd call her Tuesdays at ten and hang up. I'd say hi, Dorianne, it's time to start reading, and she'd say, okay, Ellen, and we'd hang up and then

00:51:23.550 - 00:51:35.790

she'd read for half an hour, an hour, and then we'd work. And it was many, many, many weeks before I didn't have to, you know, do the initial call, but she was willing to, and she's so generous, so generous.

00:51:35.790 - 00:51:50.370

Morton Marcus: Marvelous story. Dennis Morton: Okay, you know, this is a fascinating conversation. I wish we had an hour but one of our purposes tonight also, Ellen, is to raise money for KUSP and to get some

00:51:50.370 - 00:52:06.180

support for the Poetry Show from those who are listening. So, let's see, to repeat your ABCs of advice, we've got perseverance, and find the right mentor, the right teacher. Ellen Bass: And I guess if I had to just throw out one more

00:52:06.180 - 00:52:25.050

thing, it would be some advice that the wonderful poet Galway Kinnell, gave to a workshop that I was a participant at once and he said, "You might as well write what you want. You only live once and, you know, it's too short to not say what you

00:52:25.050 - 00:52:41.850

have to say and don't write what you think you can be successful at. Risk and take a chance and try and do the things you think you can't do." And I think that's courage, you know, to just say what you have to say, and don't worry about it.

00:52:42.960 - 00:52:55.890

Dennis Morton: Thanks, Ellen. You know, feel free to jump in here while Mort and I and Howard talk about how our listeners can demonstrate their support for KUSP right now- Morton Marcus: Because this is pitch night, believe it or not,

00:52:56.070 - 00:53:10.050

for the Poetry Show. We had scheduled Ellen, we just said, we just got to have her on one way or the other, and the peopl at KUSP were always behind us You know, they said, go righ ahead, just let's have pitchin of maybe be three or four times

00:53:10.050 - 00:53:18.570

So, we're there at this time an what we're Howard Feldstein: But before we do that, why don't we get the particulars about the upcoming events at Cal State Monterey and in Santa Cruz as well.

00:53:18.720 - 00:53:35.010

Morton Marcus: Okay. This Tuesday night at the Bookshop Santa Cruz, Ellen Bass, who we've been talking with tonight, will be reading with Alison Luterman. And that starts at 7:3 and is part of the Poetry Mont Celebration that Poetry Sant

00:53:35.010 - 00:53:49.980

Cruz is putting on at Booksho Santa Cruz. Then on April 30th Ellen will be reading down a CSU Monterey Bay for all th people down the south part o the county and that will star at 7pm. That also is Tuesda night, in fact, it's th

00:53:49.980 - 00:54:09.600

following Tuesday night. I wan to remind people also that thi Friday at 7:30pm, the Loude Nelson Poetry Series wil feature Tillie Shaw, Jennife Pittman, Karen Yamashita, an Micah Perks. So let us get bac to the telephone numbers

00:54:08.790 - 00:54:18.780

Howard Feldstein: That said, we have a Billie Harris and the Dennis Morton: Or 1-800-655-5877, or you can reach equally lovely and talented Karen Schomburg standing by to answer your phone calls at 476-5900 or toll-free

00:54:18.810 - 00:54:30.390

800-655-5877. We have just a few minutes before Billie comes on to host her program, From the Bookshelf, another favorite here at KUSP. Show your support for Billie, for Mort, Dennis, Kim Nelson, Ellen, and all the programming, twenty-four hours a

00:54:29.760 - 00:54:54.030

us on the web at www.KUSP.org. We've got about three minutes to day here at KUSP. Again, he numbers 476-5 hopefully raise at least another $200 and meet our minimum target this evening. It's very, very possible isn't it, Howard, for a

00:54:54.030 - 00:55:03.840

flurry of phone calls to- Howard Feldstein: Just a couple of calls will do that. We set a goal, a reasonable goal, of $500 for this program, which will take us to $56,000 for the drive so far, it's our fifth day.

00:55:04.410 - 00:55:18.030

We've got four calls for $300, we'd like to get a couple more. I mean any one person can pledge as much or as little as they want, each call counts. The most important is that you do call but at $80, for example, you can get that two for one dinner

00:55:18.030 - 00:55:21.030

card. Dennis Morton: That's a beauty. Howard Feldstein: Yeah, two or three calls like that will reach our goal.

00:55:21.240 - 00:55:30.180

Dennis Morton: Yeah, use that card three times and you've paid for the card. Howard Feldstein: And $120 here might sound like a lot, that's just $10 a month, thirty something cents a day, to

00:55:30.180 - 00:55:48.210

support program like this. Is Poetry Show worth that to you? Is KUSP worth $10 a month to you? Give us a call and tell us, 476-5900, or toll-free 800-655-5877. Dennis Morton: I know the- I personally know the amount of

00:55:48.210 - 00:56:01.620

preparation that goes into putting these shows on, Mor does, and so does Kim. A lot o effort goes into putting on th Poetry Show and we'd appreciat a call or two just to go out o a good note

00:56:01.000 - 00:56:14.020

Morton Marcus: To go out on a good note though, we should have some poetry and I wanted Ellen to read, "Insomnia," but we don't have time. So could you read, "The Thing Is," Ellen Bass?

00:56:14.260 - 00:56:27.290

Ellen Bass: I'd be happy to. THE THING IS To love life, to love it even when you have no stomach for it and everything you've held dear crumbles like burnt paper in

00:56:27.290 - 00:56:47.510

your hands, your throat filled with the silt of it. When grief sits with you, it's tropical heat thickening the air, heavy as water, more fit for gills than lungs. When grief weights you like your own flesh, only more of it, an obesity of grief,

00:56:48.080 - 00:57:06.530

you think, how can a body withstand this? Then you hold life like a face between your palms, a plain face, no charming smile, no violet eyes, and you say yes, I will take you, I will love you again.

00:57:08.310 - 00:57:18.630

Dennis Morton: Oh, Ellen, thank you very much for being our guest on the Poetry Show tonight. We must have at least thirty, thirty-five seconds left for a flurry of phone calls to get us to our target, don't you think?

00:57:18.660 - 00:57:28.570

Morton Marcus: I think so. Ellen, thanks again. Just marvelous congratulations on the book. Ellen Bass: Oh, thank you. It's my pleasure to be here. Dennis Morton: Well, we'll have you back again when we can do a

00:57:28.570 - 00:57:35.200

whole show with you. Morton Marcus: Yeah. Dennis Morton: All right, I guess- Howard Feldstein: This is KUSP Santa Cruz, KBDH San Ardo. It's

00:57:35.260 - 00:57:49.420

straight up nine o'clock, stay tuned for Billie Harris and From the Bookshelf, and while her theme music playing, go to your phones, call 476-5900, or use our toll-free number 800-655-KUSP, support public radio, support spoken word

00:57:49.420 - 00:57:52.180

programming, and the arts and literature here at KUSP.