00:00:36.870 - 00:00:49.470

Joseph Stroud: Well that was Hamish Moore and Dick Lee, "The Bee's Knees," and welcome to the Poetry Show which comes your way every Tuesday evening from 9 to 10. I'm Joe Stroud and with me in the studio tonight is the co-host of the Poetry Show, none

00:00:49.470 - 00:01:04.440

other than Morton Marcus himself and we have two really very special guests with us tonight. One of them is George Hitchcock, who is a very dear friend of both Mort and me. He was a member of the Bay Area literary

00:01:04.440 - 00:01:19.950

scene for many years back in the San Francisco Renaissance days, where he knew Kenneth Rexroth and William Everson, and was active as a poet among the Beats. George was also a member of the Santa Cruz literary scene for over twenty years. He's a

00:01:19.950 - 00:01:43.260

teacher up at UCSC. He is a man of many talents: he's a poet, a novelist, short story writer, he's a playwright, a director, an actor, an artist, a publisher, an editor, a printer, and a teacher. And among his published works, there are

00:01:44.460 - 00:02:01.110

plays, five plays, from Jazz Pop A Buck Press, "The Counterfeit Rose," and "The Discovery and Ascent of [unidentified]." His books of poems include, "Poems and Prints," "Tactics of Survival," "The Rococo Eye," "Ship of Bells," "The Dolphin

00:02:01.110 - 00:02:17.550

With A Revolver In Its Teeth," "Lessons In Alchemy," "The Piano Beneath the Skin," "Mirror on Horseback," "Cloud Taxis." His collection of stories are titled, "Notes of the Siege Year," his novel out, "Another Shore." George is also the

00:02:17.550 - 00:02:37.500

founder and publisher and editor of Kayak Books and the very influential literary magazine of the Sixties, Kayak magazine. And I should say that I first met George when I was a student at San Francisco State. George was one of my teachers. And he

00:02:37.500 - 00:02:56.310

taught a poetry workshop there at San Francisco State, this is back in the mid Sixties. And at that time, Kayak Magazine was going strong and well, and my first poem was published in Kayak Magazine, and I am still thankful for that to this day.

00:02:58.050 - 00:03:10.360

Mort, do you want to add anything to the introduction here? Morton Marcus: Well, I know George gets uncomfortable with all this. But you've covered most of it there. It's just

00:03:10.360 - 00:03:32.350

interesting to me that there was an article last week in Good Times that talked about the poetry scene here in Santa Cruz today. It seemed so sketchy and skimpy, that scene, and it said a few words about the history of Santa Cruz poetry. And in the

00:03:32.350 - 00:03:50.980

last several weeks, we've had Mary Norbert Körte, who hasn't been here in twenty years. Now, we have George, and Marjorie Simon. These are people who really made Santa Cruz into an electric poetry scene down here twenty odd years ago and going

00:03:50.980 - 00:04:05.740

on through the Seventies. And, I mean, this is when this place was really hopping and young poets from up on the hill were just learning so much from George in so many areas and from Everson and from Mary. It's just wonderful to see these people

00:04:05.740 - 00:04:20.740

back to tell the people out on the airwaves, who were not here then because there's so many people in this new community, some things that went on then, talk to you about what you're doing today. And I want to add something which George figured

00:04:20.950 - 00:04:38.740

in my life -- if he did Joe's first published poem, and that is a gorgeous poem by the way, I still read it all the time -- George was also the publisher of my first book at Kayak Books. And he knows that, but what he doesn't know is, I consider him

00:04:39.490 - 00:04:55.750

one of my mentors and I learned so much from him not only about poetry and editing, but being able to do things on a shoestring. I was down in the cellar in San Francisco when he would show me how you do illustrations for a book. I just

00:04:55.750 - 00:05:15.550

marveled at his creativity. And then I was also his assistant president on the neighborhood's committee and the Artists' Liberation Front, and he taught me how you run an organization, and: don't do much work. But he was really an amazing

00:05:15.550 - 00:05:27.280

inspiration for me. So welcome, George and welcome, Marjorie. George Hitchcock: Pleasure to be here, Mort. I don't know what I'm supposed to say after that. That introduction's a very hard one to follow.

00:05:29.020 - 00:05:40.570

Morton Marcus: Well, let's put it this way: and I know that you don't like to hear this kind of praise but there comes a time- George Hitchcock: Well, obviously, I love it. Morton Marcus: There just comes a time when you know people

00:05:40.570 - 00:05:55.090

should say the marvelous things that you've done and should say them to your face, besides behind your back all the time. Joseph Stroud: Well, I'll start some questions rolling in. I was- you know, Morton and I were talking about this evening, you

00:05:55.090 - 00:06:09.280

know, what we might do, and Mort had spoken with you on the phone a few days ago. And Mort mentioned to me that what you're doing these days is a lot of art. And before the program tonight, Marjorie was saying that, you know, you're turning

00:06:09.280 - 00:06:21.770

out an art piece just about every day now. And I'm just curious what, you know, what's happened to poetry? Did you- have you just given it up forever, or-? George Hitchcock: I think I've given it up forever, yes. The

00:06:21.770 - 00:06:41.510

last thing that I've written is a novel, "The Racket," which has just been published by the Storyline Press in Brownsville, Oregon, just published last September, and it's an extended piece of prose, I guess, not poetry. But I'm not writing

00:06:41.510 - 00:06:54.020

poetry anymore and- Joseph Stroud: Do you think it's a young man's art, George? [All laugh] George Hitchcock: Well, not necessarily, but I do feel

00:06:54.020 - 00:07:10.520

probably that I've said what I've had to say, or what was in me to say as far as poetry was concerned. And I wrote a lot of poetry during a period in my life, and in the life of California, I guess, when there was a lot of activity and there

00:07:10.520 - 00:07:30.200

was a lot of incentive to write it in terms of readings, of little magazines, publications, and a lively movement, which it seemed to me at the time that poetry was more or less at the epicenter of whatever winds were whirling around the literary

00:07:30.200 - 00:07:42.680

culture of the state. You felt like you're doing something, and I don't feel that anymore. And if you don't feel any particular joy in doing it, then I think it's suicidal to continue writing it.

00:07:43.290 - 00:07:56.830

Morton Marcus: Yeah. Just to give some people out there a sense of what George Hitchcock has really done, he really started out as an actor and a playwright. George Hitchcock: Yes, well, no, actually, I started out writing

00:07:56.860 - 00:08:14.530

four novels, which I tore- all of which have been torn up, fortunately. But I spent a long time writing novels unsuccessfully. And then I turned to- back to my one of my first loves, to theater and started working as an actor, and

00:08:14.530 - 00:08:30.100

from being an actor I rapidly progressed into being a director and then a playwright. So I wrote a number of plays, and I had the good fortune to have all of them produced various places around the United States, but particularly with the theatre

00:08:30.100 - 00:08:47.950

companies, both which I was working at the time, and the theater seemed to me very alive at that time. I'm not going to go into the subject of playwriting because I think the American Theatre seems to me being pretty much at a dead end,

00:08:48.700 - 00:08:59.470

the live theatre, not in terms of its productions but in terms of the capability of developing new playwrights and- Of course, maybe I'm just old fashioned. I don't know, but you don't see very much.

00:08:59.500 - 00:09:09.700

Joseph Stroud: I think many of them are going into Hollywood and TV and that sort of thing. George Hitchcock: If I were young again and had a little capital, I'd certainly go into making movies.

00:09:09.880 - 00:09:25.510

Joseph Stroud: Yeah. George Hitchcock: I think that's the art form of the century, the dramatic art form of this century anyway. My own personal predilection is towards the live theater. But that's because I've

00:09:25.510 - 00:09:37.500

spent so many extraordinarily happy and creative hours in the live theater as an actor or as a theatre person, set designer, what have you. Morton Marcus: And had great success.

00:09:37.890 - 00:09:43.930

George Hitchcock: Well, not great success- Morton Marcus: I always get this wrong, it was Actor's Studio in San Francisco? George Hitchcock: Actor's Workshop.

00:09:43.920 - 00:09:52.240

Morton Marcus: Actor's Workshop, I always get that wrong, and t e first time I ever saw you, y u were in "Uncle Vanya." George Hitchcock: Well, no, I didn't play in "Uncle Vanya." Morton Marcus: "Cherry Orchard"?

00:09:52.780 - 00:10:08.950

George Hitchcock: I played in the "Cherry Orchard," yes, I played a good deal of Chekhov, I played in the "Cherry Orchard," and I played in San Francisco a couple of productions of "The Seagull." But you didn't see me in "Uncle Vanya," that was

00:10:08.950 - 00:10:21.280

Robert Simons. Morton Marcus: Okay, and then- check me if I'm wrong, but you will anyway, you then were one of the editors for the old San Francisco Review.

00:10:21.310 - 00:10:30.370

George Hitchcock: Yes. Morton Marcus: And then- George Hitchcock: I got the bug with doing literary magazines out of that, so I taught myself printing since I was determined

00:10:30.640 - 00:10:47.290

to do a magazine that was economically feasible and the only way to do that is to cut down on your printing bill, which means ultimately, to do it yourself. So I learned to print and started Kayak Magazine and from that point, naturally,

00:10:47.740 - 00:11:04.570

having a press flowed the opportunity to bring up books and pamphlets and the like. And so I founded Kayak Books, and I think, brought out about thirty- ive volumes of poetry over the ife of that pr

00:11:04.660 - 00:11:17.260

Morton Marcus: And most of those poets either are right now recognized as our most important poets. They would- Joseph Stroud: Except for one. [Laughter] Morton Marcus: Except for one, who will go unnamed, but I mean

00:11:17.260 - 00:11:29.770

Kathy Fraser's, I think she's having her Selected Poems, Charlie Simic has won the Pulitzer Prize. George Hitchcock: Well, let's see, here are some of the people that- for whom I published books or booklets, and Charles Simic

00:11:29.830 - 00:11:49.960

is one; and we get Kathleen Fraser, as you say, is another; Ray Carver's first book of poems; I published a book of Robert Bly's; I published a book of Bill Merwin's; and, "Red Dust," by Phil Levine; oh and the late Burt Myers, I published

00:11:49.960 - 00:12:04.910

a couple of books of his -- I think he's a wonderful poet, but not very much recognized -- and many, many other poets. Morton Marcus: And it got enormous distribution, the Kayak books got enormous distribution to places. I mean, I found them

00:12:04.910 - 00:12:16.760

in Holland, I found my book in Holland, I found it in England, I mean, it's just, you know, things just are astonishing. And the magazine, I remember sending it out, we would always when we get together to send them out, I'm sure Joe was one of them,

00:12:16.760 - 00:12:27.920

we'd always look at the strange addresses over in India, and everywhere else where that magazine was going. It was really something. George Hitchcock: It had a fairly extensive distribution

00:12:27.950 - 00:12:44.260

considering that it never ran to more than 1500 copies per issue. Joseph Stroud: Yeah, I think that perhaps what a lot of our audience doesn't know is that when George would put an issue of Kayak together, he would have what he would call a Collation

00:12:44.260 - 00:12:58.360

Party. And all the local poets and friends from San Francisco would come down, and local poets in Santa Cruz would go over to George's house where he had his printing press, and everyone would assembled a magazine, and it was quite a good time, you

00:12:58.360 - 00:13:07.690

know, we had a chance to talk to other poets and friends and get together and- George Hitchcock: I also got an immense amount of free labor. Joseph Stroud: That's true. I think there was also- didn't you

00:13:07.690 - 00:13:18.140

throw in a few cans of beer or something like that? George Hitchcock: I think it was necessary for some of the workers. [Laughter] Morton Marcus: It was a Tycho Brahe feast was what it was, I

00:13:18.140 - 00:13:34.160

mean, slabs of meat, cheese, and delicious stuff. And when Marjorie came into it, I mean, it just swelled even more. Yeah, the largesse was amazing. Yeah, so it was a good time. And there were also people who were always coming through. And I remember

00:13:34.160 - 00:13:48.860

David Ignatow, I met him at one of the collating parties, and he was coming through the West Coast for the first time. So there are many, many people who would come to- I have Merwin. I believe Merwin was there once, twice, and it was just really an

00:13:48.860 - 00:14:04.430

important part, I think, of American literary history and it will be, you know, remembered that way, but that's just me. Anyway, let's get back to this idea that- I didn't want to interrupt that, about, you know, the difference here, Joe

00:14:04.640 - 00:14:16.810

humorously put it as "poetry, the young man's work," what has happened now with you suddenly being inspired to go to a visual medium? George Hitchcock: Well, it's not so sudden. I've been working in

00:14:16.810 - 00:14:34.180

Visual Media for years doing monoprints, I've exhibited monoprints in four or five galleries in Northern California. And then of course, I was a book designer, and I've done a lot of set design. And there was one time in my career

00:14:34.180 - 00:14:50.320

when I was working for the old California Labor School. I was in charge of the art department for a couple of years. So I've lived with artists all my life and I've been a sort of quasi artist in the graphic sense all my life too. But now I have the

00:14:50.320 - 00:15:10.960

time and I've always wanted to develop my own imagination visually. And I don't know, perhaps it's with age that you're not- Verbal work is harder, let's put it that way, it demands more concentration over a longer period of time and

00:15:10.960 - 00:15:29.650

sometimes your memory isn't up to it and your mind isn't up to it, you don't feel it. But on the other hand, to come into painting as a naive, as a person who is utterly untrained, it's mentally stimulating, it's immense fun, I enjoy it. I enjoy

00:15:29.650 - 00:15:50.320

painting and I've been painting now, I've been doing painting and stone carving for the last four or five years, and I've enjoyed a good deal of success at it too. I've have a permanent gallery representative in the Northwest, and I've had shows up

00:15:50.320 - 00:16:11.050

there and sold a lot of paintings, and I've just come from two shows in Mexico which were a lot of fun. Well one of them was in the municipal gallery, the Galleria Municipio in La Paz in Baja California, and the other was in Todos

00:16:11.050 - 00:16:30.160

Santos in Baja California at the Casa de Cultura, and opened by the mayor of the town. We get the kind of community participation in Mexico that you just dream of around here, you don't ever see it here. It's true the level of sophistication

00:16:30.160 - 00:16:44.350

may not be the greatest, but the heart is there and the reception for the art is there. And I don't know, as a painter I consider myself half Mexican anyway. Joseph Stroud: Well, you live in Mexico half of the year now.

00:16:44.470 - 00:16:53.180

George Hitchcock: Half the year, yes. Joseph Stroud: In La Paz? George Hitchcock: Yes, we're on our way right now back from La Paz to Eugene, Oregon for the summer.

00:16:53.810 - 00:17:04.940

Morton Marcus: And you know, this is a perfect time to say which we have- what we've not said yet, though George always passes through Santa Cruz, there's going to be a special event tomorrow that people out on the airwaves should know

00:17:04.940 - 00:17:13.580

about. What's going to happen tomorrow and at what time and where, George? George Hitchcock: Well, I'm not quite sure what's going to happen because I never make up my mind with what's going to

00:17:13.580 - 00:17:35.450

happen until I see the faces of the audience. But theoretically, I'm either giving a reading of some passages from the novel, "The Racket," or a discussion, or mixture of both at the Porter College Provosts House at four o'clock in the afternoon, an

00:17:35.450 - 00:17:49.280

event for Porter College and for the general public. Free, I might add. You're all invited to come and find out what I'm going to say because by that time perhaps I will have discovered myself.

00:17:49.870 - 00:18:05.170

Morton Marcus: And that Porter College is of course up at UCSC. Just drive up there in the farther side of the campus, don't come in the main gate, it will be the first college on your left. And then just ask anyone where the Provost House

00:18:05.170 - 00:18:14.890

is and they'll be able to tell you. Joe? Joseph Stroud: Well, also with us tonight is Marjorie Simon and she has brought some poems. Morton Marcus: Joe wants to hear some poems.

00:18:14.890 - 00:18:18.260

Joseph Stroud: I want to hear some poems. You know, this is the Poetry Show. George Hitchcock: It's a poetry program. Joseph Stroud: Right.

00:18:18.290 - 00:18:32.820

Marjorie Simon: I'm just going to jump right in and read poems? Joseph Stroud: Well, how have you been, Margie? It's been a long time. [Laughing] Jump in! Marjorie Simon: Very well. I was going to add on the collating

00:18:32.820 - 00:18:46.480

there was always somebody who was out in the cutting room who would get into conversation and we'd never see them again when we were working to collate. Morton Marcus: Why are you looking at me, Marjorie?

00:18:48.220 - 00:18:58.600

[Laughter] George Hitchcock: She was thinking of Ray Carver. Morton Marcus: George was always yelling at me for something I had done wrong, you know, putting together fifty magazines

00:18:58.600 - 00:19:09.480

with upside down pages, something like that. [Laughter] Marjorie Simon: Well, I never caught that, Mort, but I always thought you were one of the most diligent workers. Morton Marcus: Tell him, tell him.

00:19:10.260 - 00:19:23.600

Marjorie Simon: He really was, George. Morton Marcus: Marjorie, obviously, because some- you have a book of poems out but you've got open pages there, you have been writing poetry?

00:19:24.110 - 00:19:39.320

Marjorie Simon: I finally got back to writing poems this year. It's something each time we go back to La Paz, I say, this year, I'm going to write more poetry and somehow or other I just get involved with living, and havn't been working. But

00:19:39.380 - 00:19:52.400

this year, I very happily got back to writing and it just feels so good. Morton Marcus: Well, without further ado, why don't you read us one, tell us about it.

00:19:53.390 - 00:20:09.440

Marjorie Simon: Well, this is really what La Paz means to me and I call it, "Every Full Moon," although all these poems are new and they're all subject to change and so are the titles but for now it's

00:20:10.160 - 00:20:31.280

EVERY FULL MOON Bones beneath the ocean rise and try to find their former selves. If you swim through silver swaths you see sand stir, hear those ossified remains wonder in the moonlit silt. Fish, not

00:20:31.280 - 00:21:17.430

those first to pick them clean, dart their eyes, mouth, not I, not I. But the bones lost eyes, ears and only know Morton Marcus: Beautiful. Marjorie Simon: Thank you. Well, there we are on the Sea of

00:21:17.520 - 00:21:34.200

Cortez and it really seems to get to me and I suppose all the Morton Marcus: It's marvelo s. Read creative juices flow. Marjorie Simon: The book that I'm working on is called,

00:21:34.230 - 00:21:56.280

"Ghosts," for now, and these are some of the ghosts: OLD LOVES They call you from the depths of first sleep, I love you, I loved you. Trumpets, from lips on walls that throb in the moonless

00:21:56.280 - 00:22:20.850

night where hearts listen and wait. They surround your bed, walls of forgotten romances still singing the same song, I love you, I loved. You strain to find faces for lips curled with old kisses. If you reach for the light, you'll know they'll

00:22:20.850 - 00:22:38.010

disappear with your secrets, you whisper from your pillow in a language you can't translate. Joseph Stroud: We're listening to Marjorie Simon and also with us tonight is George Hitchcock, here on the KUSP Poetry Show.

00:22:38.370 - 00:22:51.690

And Marjorie has a book out called, "The Long Distance Oatmeal Eater," a book of poems and I just want to ask Marjorie, how did you come to poetry? What- Who do you connect there with? How long have you been writing?

00:22:51.750 - 00:23:06.530

Marjorie Simon: Actually, it's rather ridiculous. I stopped smoking and I could no longer sit at the desk long enough to write stories or novels or articles. Morton Marcus: That will inspire a lot of people out there.

00:23:06.920 - 00:23:20.670

That's what we tell them in classes, you know, if you want to stop smoking, just start writing poetry. Thanks a lot, Marjorie! [Laughs]. It's great, go on, continue. Marjorie Simon: Well, there were a lot of factors that entered

00:23:20.670 - 00:23:42.360

into it. We went to poetry readings all the time, of course, George was instrumental in setting up a lot, and W.S. Merwin came through and so many poets. And I think that what really inspired me was Bill Merwin because there was

00:23:42.360 - 00:24:04.860

something so very simple about his poems. I sat there and thought, gee, I could do that. And I really think that he was more instrumental in getting me to write poems than almost anyone else, although I think I caught a lot of poetry through

00:24:05.250 - 00:24:13.100

osmosis. Morton Marcus: So you had not written poetry before you met George then? Marjorie Simon: Oh, yeah, I started writing poetry when I

00:24:13.100 - 00:24:27.550

was six or seven years old, but somehow, just every so often would write something but never really seriously. Joseph Stroud: Why don't we hear one more and we'll take a little musical break?

00:24:29.260 - 00:24:42.900

Morton Marcus: One more poem. Marjorie Simon: YOU STILL TALK, FOR RAY CARVER, WHEREVER HE IS NOW Last night, I dreamed you talked to me. You weren't

00:24:42.930 - 00:25:02.190

one-dimensional like some other dreams, but fully fleshed. I marveled at how well you looked. You asked, where do you separate the poet from his words or any person from his work? And I remembered that last time, another workshop where we always

00:25:02.190 - 00:25:23.700

seemed to meet. You were building stories, fortresses made of clean, hard-packed snow. We were guests in a house that shuddered in the night. You told us in the morning that your bed collapsed, how it did wonders for your dreams. You've been

00:25:23.700 - 00:25:43.440

dead five years, why come back now and talk to me of meanings? Perhaps that article I read before I went to sleep about the Holocaust, and who knows how the mind connects. One survivor carried away bodies every day, thousands in his arms, memories

00:25:43.440 - 00:26:00.780

of the living live. Maybe that's part of what you told me when you talked to me last night. We keep our private Holocausts inside, what matters is letting go. Joseph Stroud: That's a marvelous poem. Now there's a

00:26:00.780 - 00:26:16.170

ghost that is going to be haunting a lot of people, it seems to me, Ray Carver, through his work. I mean, I don't know how you all feel, but I just did a program of Ray's poetry but two or three weeks ago, and I think he's a marvelous poet as

00:26:16.170 - 00:26:28.680

well as obviously one of the, in my mind, one of the best fiction writers, short fiction writers, of the second half of the century in America. Marjorie Simon: Oh, I thought so too. I loved his poetry and I

00:26:28.680 - 00:26:40.050

loved his short stories, I thought they were so clean and forceful. Joseph Stroud: Fierce. George here, any ideas on Ray these days?

00:26:43.960 - 00:26:59.800

George Hitchcock: Well, I don't know if there's anything I can add. And Ray was a very good personal friend of mine for a number of years. I saw him through some tough periods in his life, when he was doing technical writing over at Palo

00:26:59.800 - 00:27:22.600

Alto or someplace, and living from one rather dingy apartment to another, always one or two steps ahead of the Pacific Telephone Craft Company and light company and the power company whose bills he rarely if ever paid. So I don't know, I

00:27:22.600 - 00:27:38.890

have particular memories of Ray, but they aren't literary. Joseph Stroud: Not a part of literature, which is a part of literature. Mort, any more to say? Morton Marcus: About Ray? Well, and I've written a long article,

00:27:38.890 - 00:27:52.600

it's appeared in different places, but I met Ray and became good friends over at George's and in that article, which I think I gave you both a copy of- George Hitchcock: Yes, I saw it.

00:27:52.600 - 00:28:07.090

Morton Marcus: -there's a whole block there that just talks about George and about the Kayak Collating Parties because Ray is one of the people that I met there. Yeah, but he's I think, and what I said about Ray now in that one was, you know, his

00:28:07.090 - 00:28:27.820

poetry was so natural and so unpretentious that that is the thing that makes it so effective to anyone who reads them. It just seems so simple, you know, it's an amazing facility. Joseph Stroud: Well, you are tuned to KUSP, the Poetry Show

00:28:27.820 - 00:28:37.790

and I think we'll take a brief musical interlude and come back with some announcements, and then back to a discussion and chat and reading with Marjorie and George. [Music]

00:34:27.400 - 00:34:45.070

Moore and Dick Lee on a CD titled "The Bee's Knees," and you're tuned to KUSP, the Poetry Show. I have a few announcements to make and then we'll get back to our guests this evening, George Hitchcock and Marjorie Simon. As part of the Louden

00:34:45.070 - 00:35:01.540

Nelson Community Center reading series, Friday, April 29th at 7:30pm they will feature writers and their work. Ellery Akers, Sarah Rabkin, Patrice Vecchione, and Steve Wiesinger and that'll be a really fine reading. That's the Louden Nelson Community

00:35:01.540 - 00:35:17.890

Center reading series, they're free. This will be Friday, April 29th 7:30pm at the Louden Nelson Community Center. Ellery Akers, Sarah Rabkin, Patrice Vecchione, and Steve Wiesinger. That should be, as I said, a wonderful read. Coming up this weekend, Galway

00:35:17.890 - 00:35:33.280

Kinnell, winner of the Pulitzer Prize in 1982 for his book of Selected Poems, he will be reading at the San Jose Center for Poetry and Literature. And that'll be Sunday, May 1st 5pm and the location it says will be- to be announced. Well, they

00:35:33.280 - 00:35:50.410

better announce it pretty soon because people are going to need to know where this reading is going to be since it's just this Sunday. So it'll be over the hill, somewhere in San Jose, Galway Kinnell, 5pm, will be reading. Later in May, Jane

00:35:50.410 - 00:36:04.780

Hirshfield, a really fine poet will be reading at the San Jose Center for Poetry and Literature. She'll be at the Montalvo Center for the Arts on Thursday, May 26th at 7:30pm. She's not only a fine poet in her own right with two really

00:36:04.810 - 00:36:19.570

good books out, but she's also a translator, a wonderful book, an anthology of love poems by Japanese women, "The Ink-Dark Moon," which is a great book. Well, Mort, here we are again. Mort and I are very rarely

00:36:19.570 - 00:36:38.410

together anymore on the show, but we are here tonight for a very special occasion that's to talk with George Hitchcock and Marjorie Simon, our friends from a long ways back. As I said, George was my teacher, published my first poem, and it's really

00:36:38.410 - 00:36:50.260

good to have you here. And George, you've got a new novel out, "The Racket." And you will be- that'll be tomorrow, you'll be reading and talking about that? George Hitchcock: I'll be reading probably, you know, two

00:36:50.260 - 00:37:03.790

or three chapters from it and talking about it a little tomorrow at four o'clock at the Porter College Provost House at UCSC campus. Joseph Stroud: Can you say anything about the novel? I

00:37:03.790 - 00:37:17.510

noticed that it stars a tennis player who was ranked 224th in the world. George Hitchcock: It's the West Coast of America and many of the characters are the West Coast of America seen through the eyes of

00:37:17.510 - 00:37:36.140

a traveling Mexican tennis player who is on his way from Victoria, British Columbia to his sister's wedding in Ensenada and is passing through the United States as a tourist. And it's inspired perhaps by all of the novels that I've looked at

00:37:36.140 - 00:37:54.800

and infrequently read, which are American tourist novels abroad where you have an American ingenue traveling through Europe or older cultures, or the like. I thought it would be very entertaining to reverse this and to show at least a part of

00:37:54.800 - 00:38:16.430

America as seen by a young Latino. In this case, as you see, 224th ranked tennis player who has recently been playing matches in Osaka and Tokyo and is on his way back, all the way to Mexico City and then to Montevideo where he's been

00:38:16.430 - 00:38:34.670

living in Uruguay. And it's not about him so much. He's the narrator and he sees everything. It's about what America looks like in the 90s, at least on the West Coast. I'm not an Easterner, I can't talk about what it looks like in the East

00:38:34.670 - 00:38:43.490

with any degree of authenticity. Joseph Stroud: Is it a tragedy or a comedy? George Hitchcock: It's a comedy, don't worry about that. Morton Marcus: George, is it a realistic novel?

00:38:44.450 - 00:38:52.850

George Hitchcock: Is it realistic novel? Well, it purports to be. No, it's absolute and utter fiction but- Morton Marcus: No, you know what I mean because I'm- George Hitchcock: No, I don't know what you mean.

00:38:52.880 - 00:39:08.320

Morton Marcus: Okay, then I'll tell you what I mean [laughter] and that is, you also have written much surrealism and- George Hitchcock: Oh, well, this is not- no, no this is not surrealistic, it's in straightaway simple prose with a

00:39:08.320 - 00:39:22.120

lot of dialogue. It's eminently and easily readable even by the critics who seemed to, many of them seemed to have enjoyed it, which is perhaps not a good sign. Morton Marcus: Now it has been out since September and

00:39:22.150 - 00:39:37.410

obviously by your last comment, it's been getting good reviews. George Hitchcock: It's got- it's gotten excellent reviews where it's been reviewed. I don't know what's been happening recently because I've been, in the last six months, in Mexico, and the

00:39:37.410 - 00:39:53.260

mails there don't send me reviews but- Morton Marcus: How about the females? [Laughter] George Hitchcock: Alright. I s e you're as bad a punner as ver. But it's an enjoyable novel, I enjoyed writing it an

00:39:53.260 - 00:40:06.430

readers tell me they enjoy r ading it very much. And it's a little about tennis, but i 's about tennis as a Joseph Stroud: And it's out by Storyline Press- who does Storyline Press?

00:40:06.810 - 00:40:20.010

Morton Marcus: Robert McDowell, George Hitchcock: Lisa McDowell, and Joseph Bednarik are the publishers. Morton Marcus: And again, Robert, a fine poet in his own right, was a student of George's.

00:40:20.280 - 00:40:32.400

George Hitchcock: Many, many years ago. Morton Marcus: Many years ago, and then taught for a while the University of Indiana, came back here, and set up Storyline. Actually he had already set it up in a magazine that he did

00:40:32.430 - 00:40:36.720

model I think after Kayak? George Hitchcock: What? It didn't resemble- You mean The Reaper? Morton Marcus: Yeah.

00:40:36.720 - 00:40:48.160

George Hitchcock: Which did not resemble Kayak in any way. Morton Marcus: Right, that's what I mean. George Hitchcock: Ideologically or- it could hardly be said to be modeled after Kayak. It might have been inspired by the fact

00:40:48.160 - 00:40:54.980

that I put out Kayak, but it wasn't modeled after it. Joseph Stroud: Yeah, Mort, be a bit more accurate in your observation. Morton Marcus: George will keep me straight. [Laughs]

00:40:59.660 - 00:41:15.380

Joseph Stroud: George, of all the many hats that you have worn as an artist, poet, novelist, prose writer, playwright, director, actor, all of these, which of them, for you, has been the most satisfying? Is that a fair question?

00:41:15.000 - 00:41:31.410

George Hitchcock: It is a perfectly fair question and there's a perfectly fair answer to it too. And the answer is the one in which I'm currently engaged because I am not an autobiographical artist, or one who likes to look back. I mean,

00:41:31.410 - 00:41:49.380

I very much enjoy what I'm doing at the time, so at the moment, yes, that- the appropriate hat is that of a painter. Morton Marcus: You know, I'm sure that Joe has heard him say this too, when George would come into classes and things like

00:41:49.380 - 00:42:04.380

that, he would say what he tried to do as an artist was to keep his consciousness heightened for as many hours per day as he could, and I gather you feel that's happening now in the whole visual realm. Or do you no longer prescribe to that idea?

00:42:04.570 - 00:42:23.020

George Hitchcock: No, I subscribe to that idea all right, but age takes its toll. You can take- now I feel that I can really concentrate for about four hours a day, the rest of the time I tend to meander and give television interviews and-

00:42:23.590 - 00:42:31.360

Morton Marcus: And radio interviews. George Hitchcock: Waste my time. Joseph Stroud: Search for the perfect oyster bar in La Paz. George Hitchcock: Yeah, search for the perfect oyster bar, and

00:42:31.360 - 00:42:44.890

so forth. But for the four or five hours that one is capable of real concentration, I very much agree with that. I actually said it? Morton Marcus: You actually said it. In fact, you said it a

00:42:44.890 - 00:42:57.080

number of times, believe it or not. George Hitchcock: Obviously, I've forgotten. Joseph Stroud: Any memories from the Fifties scene in San Francisco, George? And there's a lot of people now that are

00:42:57.080 - 00:43:08.030

writing about that, you know, the Beats and the San Francisco Renaissance, what was it like to be- Were you around Ginsberg when he did, were you at that reading where he did, "Howl," or were you part of that scene?

00:43:08.510 - 00:43:23.480

George Hitchcock: That, no, no, I knew Alan, Dan and later and I admired much of, "Howl," but I was never really a member of that group. Joseph Stroud: You were friends with Rexroth though?

00:43:23.570 - 00:43:36.860

George Hitchcock: Kenneth Rexroth was a very dear friend of mine and was my inspiration as a poet when I started writing poetry, certainly. I knew Kenneth in the Thirties. Joseph Stroud: Oh really?

00:43:37.200 - 00:43:56.700

George Hitchcock: Oh, yes. Kenneth and I tramped through the Kings Canyon section of the Sierras in 1937 together, he was a wonderful mountaineer, excellent botanist, and he taught me what I know, which is virtually nothing about

00:43:56.700 - 00:44:13.110

rappelling and rock climbing. [Laughter] He insisted that I go out on some obscene rock someplace and lower myself over the edge kicking. [Laughter] It was the only time I've ever done it, I've never done it since then. It would take a, you know,

00:44:14.010 - 00:44:30.100

prodigiously energetic and inspirational person like Kenneth Rexroth to get me to do it, but I knew him very well at that time. Joseph Stroud: He was one of my- I was a student of Rexroth, too,

00:44:30.100 - 00:44:40.950

for a very brief period of time when he was teaching at San Francisco State. He did a seminar on the arts there. And I've always really admired and loved his poetry as well. George Hitchcock: He was a very fine poet.

00:44:40.980 - 00:44:54.480

Joseph Stroud: Oh, he's a wonderful poet. George Hitchcock: I know he read aloud the greatest section of the first book that Macmillan did for him before it was published to me and a couple of other people in 1939 and 1940

00:44:56.220 - 00:45:14.700

and I was tremendously impressed by it. He has not received the recognition, but perhaps because he was a Westerner and perhaps because he also was kind of an autodidact and extremely arrogant and a fabricator too, like-

00:45:15.210 - 00:45:27.780

Joseph Stroud: Indeed. George Hitchcock: Like Ezra Pound, he made things up which weren't true, you could never believe from one day to the next what he said, but it was a vast and wonderful outpouring of

00:45:27.780 - 00:45:48.930

knowledge, poetry, feeling. A great man. Joseph Stroud: Indeed. Morton Marcus: Well, Marjorie, you've got poems ready there and you are sort of like the muse's accompaniment to this evening.

00:45:49.650 - 00:46:05.380

Tell us some more about the poems you're doing and then read a couple. Marjorie Simon: Some of them, as I said before, are inspired by La Paz. I have one here called, "General Márquez de Leon Comes

00:46:05.380 - 00:46:18.100

Home," and I'm not sure if it's a very good poem, but I had fun doing it. And if you like-? Morton Marcus: Who is the general? Marjorie Simon: George?

00:46:18.670 - 00:46:43.000

George Hitchcock: Well, General Márquez de Leon was one of the leaders in the Juarez struggle against the French and against Maximilian, in lower California, is a native of Baja California, I think of San Antonio or Todos Santos, and is buried there.

00:46:43.860 - 00:46:54.110

Marjorie Simon: Well, he's buried there now. George Hitchcock: Yeah, they brought his bones back from someplace else, or what purported to be his bones. Marjorie Simon: And he's very famous.

00:46:54.120 - 00:47:09.290

George Hitchcock: He's a local national hero. Marjorie Simon: Streets are named after him. So this is: GENERAL MARQUEZ DE LEON COMES HOME Everyone waits for the bones of General Márquez de Leon. He is a

00:47:09.290 - 00:47:28.940

hero interred where he fell, but his roots, heart, street named after him, lie here in La Paz. The city fathers dug him up. Now in the morning sun, Mexican flags, marching bands, loudspeakers celebrate his coming, and at last, he speeds

00:47:28.940 - 00:47:48.200

by in a bus. The crowd pushes to see the box that holds the general. He rises, climbs out, he doesn't look so well. He's been dead too long. But his spirit's good, he was a revolutionary, he has something to say. Drummers drown him out.

00:47:48.380 - 00:48:05.870

He can't be heard above the tumult of loudspeakers on old Ford trucks. Ribboned officials beg him to get back inside his box, they have speeches to make. No one wants to deal with the ghosts of old bones. "We never would have brought you back if

00:48:05.870 - 00:48:26.880

we knew," they cry, but General Márquez de Leon has no ears, he's not listening to anyone now. But it's so nice and warm and sunny and beautiful and the shadows in the afternoon are so long, I really think it's

00:48:26.880 - 00:48:39.200

conducive to writing poetry. Joseph Stroud: Marge, do you have a kind of scheme that you go through when you write, in the morning or in the afternoon? Did you set yourself a special time to do your work or is it

00:48:39.200 - 00:48:50.940

just whenever? Marjorie Simon: I try to write in the morning and I have a favorite place to sit and outside my window is a hummingbird feeder and the hummingbirds are very busy and

00:48:50.940 - 00:49:16.170

some orioles come by to eat, to drink out of the feeder. And I work very hard writing a poem and I'm usually very dissatisfied because it's always on a rather superficial level. But somehow it isn't until I get into fifth gear that the poems

00:49:16.170 - 00:49:41.120

come and they never seem to happen until I work very hard on nothing first. But I have to kick into fifth gear before something happens and it's usually in the morning. Joseph Stroud: George, in your many readings and travels and so

00:49:41.120 - 00:49:59.750

forth, who in your opinion, who do you feel are the important poets of our time in English? American poets? I think I'll stump you with this one. George Hitchcock: I'm utterally stumped with it, I really don't

00:49:59.750 - 00:50:12.290

know. Joseph Stroud: Marjorie, who do you read that you like these days? Who you've been reading? Marjorie Simon: Well, I still like W.S. Merwin, and when she

00:50:12.290 - 00:50:23.930

was writing poetry I liked Margaret Atwood very much. Joseph Stroud: Yeah, I don't know. I haven't seen any poems from her for a long time. She's pretty much novels and short stories.

00:50:23.960 - 00:50:44.300

Marjorie Simon: Yeah, she's been very busy. She used to say that there's a time for everything, that there's a time when writing poetry happens because this is what's on the agenda, what's in her mind and then there's a time for writing novels. But it seems

00:50:44.300 - 00:50:55.660

to me more and more of her time is with novels. I like Galway Kinnell a lot. Joseph Stroud: Yeah, I do too, I like Merwin as well. In fact, Galway will be coming. I should mention this one more time:

00:50:55.660 - 00:51:06.800

Galway will be coming to San Jose, the only problem is exactly where no one seems to know. Morton Marcus: Do you have a phone number down there where the listeners can-

00:51:06.840 - 00:51:22.710

Joseph Stroud: I do have a phone number, thank you, Mort. For further information and reservations, you may call area code 408-292-3254. That's Galway Kinnell who will be reading Sunday, May 1st at 5pm at a location to be announced. Well,

00:51:22.710 - 00:51:33.840

why don't we announce one more time tomorrow's reading that George is giving at the Provost house and then we're just about out of time here. Morton Marcus: Another very all too quick hour talking to

00:51:34.080 - 00:51:50.580

Marjorie Simon and George Hitchcock, who are once more traveling through as they come up from Mexico to greet the spring in their house in Oregon. And George will be reading from his new novel published last fall called, "The Racket," and

00:51:50.610 - 00:52:07.950

that will be tomorrow at UCSC and the Porter College Provost House. Again, that's at the Porter College Provost House at 4 pm. The reading, discussion, whatever it will be, will be free. George is one of the great readers and you've heard his

00:52:07.950 - 00:52:28.140

great voice and I would urge you to come out and just see this amazingly diversified artists, really an inspiration, he just is always doing something new. And that's at Porter College Provost House tomorrow at 4pm, it is free. And I know I'll be

00:52:28.140 - 00:52:40.050

there and I'm sure Joe will be there and many other people, so do make it up there. Joseph Stroud: A few words about people, critics' comments on "The Racket," Clemens Starck had said that, "It's a dazzling

00:52:40.050 - 00:52:51.960

succession of lobs and smashes, jointly served up by an old pro." I don't know about the "old" but I certainly think that- that George is a real pro. He's old too, I guess. Morton Marcus: Yeah, what the hell, we're not going to let him

00:52:51.960 - 00:53:03.810

get away with anything. [Laughter] Joseph Stroud: Well, that's the Poetry Show for tonight. I'd like to thank George Hitchcock and Marjorie Simon for being our guests, it's been a real pleasure seeing the two of you

00:53:03.810 - 00:53:11.830

again back in dear old Santa Cruz. Marjorie Simon: This is so nice to see you again, Joe and Mort. George Hitchcock: Thank you, Joe. And Mort. [Laughter]

00:53:12.070 - 00:53:20.010

Morton Marcus: Thanks, George. Yes, don't forget me. [Laughter] Joseph Stroud: Thank you, Mort. George Hitchcock: Mort sounds aggrieved. [Laughter] Morton Marcus: You know, again, and so many people say this, we

00:53:20.010 - 00:53:34.540

really have got to start doing more shows together and I know that our time is so limited, but we really have to do it. Joseph Stroud: Okay, that's the Poetry Show for tonight. You're listening to KUSP Santa Cruz, Monterey, Salinas at 88.9. Stay

00:53:34.540 - 00:53:48.050

tuned for "Out Front Outback," a very fine jazz program with Larry Blood. And I think we'll just go into some of- what are we going to be listening to, Larry? Larry Blood: Don Poland(?) and Jane Bonnet(?).

00:53:49.290 - 00:53:50.520

Joseph Stroud: Well, you heard it, here we go.