00:00:00.000 - 00:00:14.580

Unknown: welcome everybody here tonight to Friday night socialist forum. We have a special treat this evening. In fact, we have a special treat both tonight and tomorrow night. We're having a special series of talks, one tonight, one tomorrow

00:00:14.580 - 00:00:33.770

night, by Frank kofsky. The two talks are jazz, the Cold War and the establishment tonight and tomorrow night's talk, which will be held here at the forum at Deb's Hall. At the same time, revolution in jazz, the new black radicalism. Before I

00:00:33.770 - 00:00:54.090

introduce tonight's speaker, I'd like to bring to your attention Another special feature that is coming up in the near future, the weekend of July 30, we're going to have a special socialist weekend conference here in Detroit. We're going to

00:00:54.090 - 00:01:10.050

have a series of three talks on the dynamics of the world revolution, given by Barry Shepard. The talks will spread over Friday and Saturday, one talk being given Friday night at the regular forum time, and Saturday at 11 and two o'clock

00:01:10.100 - 00:01:27.920

they'll be given two talks. The speaker at the socialist education conference will be Barry Shepherd, who is presently Managing Editor of the militant and as a former national chairman of the Ysa, the speeches, or the topics of the

00:01:27.920 - 00:01:43.140

speeches under the dynamics of the world revolution will be the colonial world Friday night worker states and the Capitola countries. Now, if anybody wants to find out more about the nature of the talks. You can pick up a leaflet in the back

00:01:44.700 - 00:02:00.770

now, as well as the special feature weekend with free talks by Barry, we're going to have a special, extra special feature, and that feature is going to be a dreamer. That is an evening with Bertolt Brecht. The Debs Hall players are going to put on

00:02:00.770 - 00:02:19.290

a series of sketches about the life of Bertolt Brecht, certain plays dealing in an anti war theme and certain of his poetry. And that will be a separate entity in itself, and there'll be a separate admission for that. Each of the talks, we will

00:02:19.290 - 00:02:34.950

have 50 Cent admission. And as well as the drama and the evening with rodeo Brecht, on Sunday, we're going to have a picnic. It's a full weekend. The Picnic will be held at Kensington Park, and there are directions here on how to get

00:02:34.950 - 00:02:53.000

there. It's quite a nice place, and I'm sure that it would end up the weekend quite well if everybody joined us out in Kensington Park? Frank Kofsky, our speaker tonight is presently an instructor of History at the University of Pittsburgh and the

00:02:53.000 - 00:03:07.940

author of many articles and publications such as jazz magazine, new university thought, monthly review and the National guardian. The two talks he will be given during the series are adapted from a book that he is presently writing

00:03:09.780 - 00:03:35.960

I'll give you now Frank Kofsky for the first talk jazz the Cold War and the establishment. Frank Kofsky: You Thank you, Madam Chairman, before I begin, I'd like to say that it's a special treat for me

00:03:35.960 - 00:03:54.460

to be in Detroit tonight. It's my first visit to Detroit, and I've long looked forward to coming here for a number of reasons. I've been fascinated by the city because I think in some respects, politically, it's unique. And here I'm referring

00:03:54.460 - 00:04:16.980

to such developments as the freedom now party, which hasn't been duplicated anyplace else on the same scale as it took root here. Can you hear me, by the way, little louder, right? And also, because artistically, there are things happening in

00:04:16.980 - 00:04:30.680

Detroit, which I see happening very few places elsewhere. And here I'm thinking of such a thing as the artists workshop group, which certainly we in Pittsburgh could use. Is this better now? Louder still,

00:04:36.560 - 00:04:57.640

finally, finally. I feel particularly honored in being asked to speak here, because I regard this as somewhat of a socialist shrine since the assassination and martyrdom of Leo Bernard and the wounding of his two comrades, Jan Garrett

00:04:58.000 - 00:05:17.160

and Walter Graham and. I think that future generations will come to see this hall as one among many monuments in the struggle for socialism. Henze, I feel that it is an honor to be asked to speak here, and I'm proud to be able to do so

00:05:17.160 - 00:05:42.640

tonight. So much. Then, for preface, the thesis, or one thesis I want to present tonight is that jazz is utilized by the government of the United States as an instrument in Cold War diplomacy, and I think a good

00:05:42.820 - 00:06:04.260

way as any by which to get into this topic is to look at an interview with Willis Conover, which was reprinted in jazz magazine in the summer of 1965 in the course of talking To the editor of jazz. Willis Conover, who was the jazz consultant for

00:06:04.260 - 00:06:20.600

the Voice of America, reported that a European musician had told him, and I quote, the uncommitted people may very well be committed, I'm sorry, may very well indeed be attracted to the American Cold War position by your broadcasts of American

00:06:20.600 - 00:06:38.840

music. And meanwhile, Conover himself added, our music helps maintain contact with people already inclined to sympathize with the United States. End of quote, subsequently criticized, I guess I should say that I wrote a letter attacking Willis

00:06:38.840 - 00:06:53.140

Conover, at that point, subsequently criticized for employing jazz to counteract the increasingly unfavorable impression created by United States foreign policy, especially United States foreign policy in Vietnam. Conover

00:06:53.140 - 00:07:08.760

issued a disclaimer the conversation quoted above had taken place, quote, some years ago, before we were in Vietnam, end of quote, leaving aside the fact that the United States involvement in Vietnam goes back to 1948 when this country began

00:07:08.760 - 00:07:25.220

to assume roughly 70% of the cost of France's war against the Vietnamese people. Conovers Dennis is implausible on the face of it, this is made quite clear by an examination of his employer, the Voice of America. The Voice of America grew out of

00:07:25.220 - 00:07:40.840

the Office of War Information, a central Ministry of Propaganda of the sort established by every wartime government at the close of the Second World War, as the US began to transform its policy vis a vis the Soviet Union, from one of cooperation to one of

00:07:40.840 - 00:07:58.900

military containment. The Voice of America was converted in conovers words into quote the radio arm of the United States Information Agency, close quote, which, as is well known, supervises the dissemination of pro United States and anti

00:07:58.900 - 00:08:15.720

socialist propaganda throughout the world. In short, then the USIA is strictly an outgrowth of the Cold War. And were that war to end tomorrow, the USIA would vanish in less time than it takes to tell taking with it the Voice of America, nonetheless,

00:08:15.780 - 00:08:31.580

Willis Conover maintains that his efforts at the Voice of America do not amount to Cold War propaganda. Quote, my purpose in doing the Voice of America program is to show us as we are close. Quote, one may be permitted to express a modicum

00:08:31.580 - 00:08:49.180

of doubt. Conovers version of the United States as we are will hardly be recognized by any serious person. He insists, for example, that quote, what's changed is the circumstances most of us live in changed for the better and continuing to

00:08:49.180 - 00:09:05.280

change for the better. And that quote again, in 10 years at the most, there'll be nothing but a few illiterate old Die Hard racists left in a few backwoods southern shanties as the last vestiges of second class citizenship and segregation.

00:09:06.360 - 00:09:21.500

What does Willis Conover give us, by way of evidence to support this contention? Now, he tells us, Sarah Vaughan and I can dance at the White House, whereas 20 years ago, when Washington was note the past tense, when Washington was a

00:09:21.500 - 00:09:40.840

segregated southern town, we had to go to an illegal uptown after hours club. Clearly, things are changing for the better, at least for Willis Conover, whether Sarah Vaughan shares that opinion, is open to debate. Conovers, distortions of life in

00:09:40.840 - 00:09:55.960

the United States are not merely accidental. They are, in fact, part of a larger United States Information Agency attempt aimed at picturing this country and its black white relations in particular in the most rose colored of tones. As I was

00:09:55.960 - 00:10:10.920

completing the final draft of this article, I read Kwame and Cruz. Neo colonialism, the last stage of imperialism in which the deposed president of Ghana had this to say about the United States Information United States Information Agency and its

00:10:10.920 - 00:10:25.340

broadcasts. He described these broadcasts as, quote, the chief executor of us psychological warfare, glorifying the United States while attempting to discredit countries with an independent foreign policy, an obvious reference to Ghana

00:10:26.000 - 00:10:41.560

planning and coordinating its activities in close touch with the Pentagon, CIA and other Cold War agencies, including even Armed Forces intelligence centers. Dr Nkrumah also reveals that when governments in Togo and the Congo Leopoldville

00:10:41.800 - 00:10:56.200

wished to permit information centers from the Soviet Union as well as from the United States. Quote, Washington threatened to stop all aid, thereby forcing these two countries to renounce their plan. Close. Quote, The evidence is that Dr in Cruz,

00:10:56.200 - 00:11:11.820

picture of the USIA is an accurate one. The deputy director of USIA, Donald M Wilson, told the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee that his agency had quote, very close, close quote, relations with the CIA, quote, we have daily

00:11:11.820 - 00:11:26.840

contact with them here, referring to the CIA and other intelligence agencies on a number of levels. That quote comes from the book by David Wise and Thomas B Ross the invisible government. The authors of the book add further

00:11:27.080 - 00:11:41.440

that the Voice of America is quote the official voice of the United States government. It should be obvious, they continue that it's broadcast across national boundaries to other nations, particularly behind the Iron Curtain are among the

00:11:41.440 - 00:11:58.780

mechanisms of United States foreign policy. Close quote, all of which, however, disturbs Willis Conover, not in the least. What is wrong he wants to know with presenting a good music program. What? Indeed, but as was illustrated by a pair of

00:11:58.780 - 00:12:12.600

recent events in such widely separated spots as Lisbon, Portugal and Dakar Senegal, the Voice of America, United States Information Agency complex is not the only official governmental agency to make use of jazz and furthering Cold War

00:12:12.600 - 00:12:29.540

diplomacy. In the first of these incidents reported in the jazz magazine downbeat under the headline quote, jazz halts Viet protest, a scheduled protest by students at the Lisbon University Medical Faculty against United States actions in

00:12:29.540 - 00:12:47.560

Vietnam was quote called off after a concert at the university by a jazz sextet from the Springfield a US Sixth Fleet cruiser in Lisbon for a five day port call. The second item dates from a few weeks later. Again, the headline from the store from

00:12:47.560 - 00:13:04.620

a story in The New York Times. 31st April 1966 is most enlightening on the way in which Washington views the Cold War utility of jazz. The headline reads, Soviet poets fail to capture Dakar subhead Duke Ellington, the winner in

00:13:04.620 - 00:13:21.560

propaganda skirmish. The win of Ellington's referred to, had taken place at Senegal's first World Festival of Negro arts. And to underline the point that more was involved than merely art for art's sake, the story's author, Lloyd Garrison wrote

00:13:21.560 - 00:13:36.440

that Soviet poet Yevgeny Yevtushenko, quote, had been urgently summoned for from Moscow to do for Soviet propaganda what Duke Ellington had done for the Americans. Close quote, It is, of course, saddening that the works of

00:13:36.440 - 00:13:49.780

artists of the stature of Ellington and Yevtushenko are debased into ideological counters in the Cold War, rivalry between antagonistic social systems. What makes it even more disturbing as far as the United States is concerned,

00:13:49.780 - 00:14:04.380

is a degree of hypocrisy involved. For if the Soviet Union brings to bear its poets, its dancers and its musicians in the propaganda battle, it at least pays these artists the elementary courtesy of giving them a decent livelihood and an

00:14:04.380 - 00:14:19.500

honored position in Soviet life, contrary to our own practice, the Soviets do not send their artists and intellectuals abroad as roving ambassadors, only to consign them to second class citizenship at home. Instead, there, the artist is generally

00:14:19.500 - 00:14:34.040

considered on a par with the scientist, the professional, the government bureaucrat and even the Communist Party member. This, I think, is true even despite the deplorable persecution of artists in the Daniel sinaiwski trial. I think

00:14:34.040 - 00:14:49.720

on the whole that despite this persecution, artists are, from a material and a psychological standpoint, better off in the socialist countries than they are in this one. But regardless of whether this is true for artists in general,

00:14:49.720 - 00:15:02.760

I think it is undeniable for jazz musicians. And I'll try to bring out why I think that and what follows, would that this were true in the United States. That is, would that artists were given the same honor? Position. If the Times had wanted to be

00:15:02.760 - 00:15:18.540

more thorough, not to say more honest or more ironic, it could have followed up its account of Ellington's triumph in Dakar by pointing out that the same Ellington had be had been rejected for a Pulitzer Prize in music less than a year ago. This

00:15:18.540 - 00:15:33.920

juxtaposition not atypical, just more glaring than most exemplifies the unwritten rule that jazz may be eminently serviceable for Cold War campaigns abroad, but when it comes to winning acceptance at home there, the prospects are

00:15:33.920 - 00:15:51.460

considerably more grim. So far as the cultural intellectual establishment is concerned, jazz is the unwanted stepchild of the arts. It is utilized for Voice of America broadcasts. Its practitioners are eagerly sought for State Department tours. Yet

00:15:51.460 - 00:16:04.380

should it be proposed to the representatives of the establishment who are so concerned with the worsening us image, as they call it, that a jazz musician should receive a foundation grant, a visiting professorship or a Pulitzer

00:16:04.380 - 00:16:20.060

Prize, the response would be one of shock and dismay. Possibly the best way to get a perspective on just where jazz stands with respect to the establishment is to look at the position that occupies, or rather doesn't occupy, in the

00:16:20.060 - 00:16:36.080

university. The reason I say this is that the university is in some ways, a microcosm of the establishment as a whole. We now know from studies produced during free speech controversies in campuses all over the country, and here, I'm thinking

00:16:36.080 - 00:16:49.240

of especially Marvin garcin's excellent essay on the Regents of the University of California, reprinted in the book by Hal Draper Berkeley, the new student revolt. We now know that, if we didn't know before, that universities are governed by a

00:16:49.240 - 00:17:01.320

board of regents trustees. What have you on which set representatives of the dominant business groups in the community? In a general way, the curriculum, curriculum of the university is molded so as to conform with the desires of this

00:17:01.320 - 00:17:16.200

corporate elite to turn out mid level technicians with all of the approved social attitudes, an idea most frequently propounded by Clark Kerr in his concept of the Multiversity. Consequently, if one wishes to see the value which the

00:17:16.200 - 00:17:29.660

corporate elite, that is the pinnacle of the establishment, the ruling class, the value which this elite places on jazz domestically, as opposed to the value placed on it as a Cold War instrument. One could do worse than begin by looking at the

00:17:29.660 - 00:17:46.120

university curriculum with this in mind. Then I carried out a short survey of 50 college and university catalogs chosen at random. Of these 50 institutions, only three offered courses in jazz and no course title mentioned jazz by name,

00:17:46.420 - 00:18:05.880

the more respectable euphemism, stage band being preferred. It should be emphasized moreover that the dearth of jazz on the campus is not to be explained by its relative newness as forms of art, photography and jazz are roughly the same age, but

00:18:05.880 - 00:18:21.200

photography, perhaps because its origins cannot be traced to black people, has been able to breach the walls of the university, whereas jazz, aside from some very rare exceptions, has not in the same 50 colleges And universities already

00:18:21.200 - 00:18:35.600

referred to, there were eight with courses in photography almost three times the number of those giving courses in jazz. UCLA, for instance, has an entire graduate department in Cinematic Arts, while Yale now offers a course in the esthetics

00:18:35.600 - 00:18:51.340

of filmmaking. But neither one of these makes any mention of jazz in its catalog at California State College at Los Angeles, where I taught history in 1964 and 1965 one may take up to seven courses in photography, including one in Motion Picture

00:18:51.340 - 00:19:08.460

photography, a technique less than half a century old. Of jazz courses, however, not a one for that matter, the opportunity for music students to play jazz for academic credit is so limited at Cal State Los Angeles, that alto saxophonist Jimmy Woods, who

00:19:08.640 - 00:19:22.160

worked for a while with Chico Hamilton's group, preferred sociology to music as his major, there are no grounds for believing that conditions elsewhere are any better as the experiences of John handy at the other end of the state

00:19:22.160 - 00:19:36.380

California State College at San Francisco had testified, despite the fact that he was regarded by his music professors as their outstanding student and a model for the others. Handy, an inventive saxophonist who worked with bassist Charles Mingus

00:19:36.380 - 00:19:48.820

before forming his own group, found that his insistence in trying to obtain courses that offered credit for jazz playing resulted in nothing more than a head on collision with the department. Ultimately, he was forced out before he was able to

00:19:48.820 - 00:20:06.240

obtain his master's degree for every case of a university like North Texas, state that offers a jazz oriented education to the Tara musician, handy story or. Story of Jimmy woods, could, I am sure, be repeated several times over? The bias against

00:20:06.240 - 00:20:18.420

jazz extends beyond the music department per se. Every four year, college and university presents a series of performances and lectures by visiting artists and writers, but virtually never jazz. I realize that Wayne State is

00:20:18.420 - 00:20:33.080

somewhat of an exception. There is, for instance, a committee on arts and lectures abbreviated c, a, l, or Cal, which plan such programs at the University of California. Well, do I remember an hour of fruitless wrangling I spent with one of the upper

00:20:33.080 - 00:20:49.480

echelon administrators, administrators of Cal on this subject around 1960 why? I wanted to know were jazz artists never featured in the Cal programs. That was simple, jazz was entertainment, not art. Against this arbitrary verdict,

00:20:49.480 - 00:21:03.060

I protested in vain, until sensing the futility of that approach, I shifted ground, perhaps then there was an explanation I had overlooked as to how the inclusion of comedienne Anna Russell in the series for the coming year could

00:21:03.060 - 00:21:18.240

be justified under the heading of art. If Anna Russell, why not say the vocal trio of Lambert Henze and Ross at this juncture, the conversation disintegrated completely. My opposite number began spluttering about how everyone loved Anna Russell. One

00:21:18.240 - 00:21:31.520

couldn't take these things too seriously after all. Of course, you understand, perhaps next year and so on, until finally, unable to bear it anymore, I simply walked out. Thus jazz had to wait for its introduction on the Berkeley campus until the

00:21:31.520 - 00:21:44.800

spring of 1960 when the students for racial equality sponsored a concert to benefit what was later to become the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. Naturally, the Kerr administration refused to let the students take the money off

00:21:44.800 - 00:21:57.160

campus to aid their fellow students in the south. But that's another story whose narration properly belongs in an introductory chapter to a history of the Berkeley Free Speech Movement that claim, by the way, of University of

00:21:57.220 - 00:22:16.620

California administrators, that students at Berkeley were always allowed to take money off campus is nothing more than a blatant lie. It simply is not the case. For brevity sake, I've concentrated on the university,

00:22:16.800 - 00:22:32.300

but other equally meaningful indicators could have been employed. Instead, one might look, for example, at the establishment intellectual magazines, periodicals like Harper's Atlantic Saturday Review, New York Times Magazine,

00:22:32.420 - 00:22:47.020

even the New York Review of Books, and compare the amount of space devoted to jazz in these periodicals with that given over to European music, usually misleadingly labeled, classical music, painting, books, or any other art of which the

00:22:47.020 - 00:23:01.620

establishment approves and deems of value. The results of such a survey would not be much different from what has already been stated with respect to the academy. Very few of these periodicals discuss Jazz at all, fewer still, with any

00:23:01.620 - 00:23:18.180

regularity, contrary to what might be expected, moreover, the smaller circulation magazines of the liberal and radical left offer no dissent from the establishment view of jazz. If anything, there is less coverage of jazz in such journals as the

00:23:18.180 - 00:23:31.880

liberal nation and New Republic or in the radical monthly review and national guardian, who can be read in Harper's or the Saturday Review. This, I might point out, has been a considerable and a continual source of disappointment to me

00:23:32.000 - 00:23:46.840

personally, because I regard my constituency or my potential audience as radicals. Having begun with that optimistic assumption, I've been forced to make several drastic revisions in it when I found that radical magazines are simply not

00:23:46.840 - 00:24:02.640

interested in jazz. If you feel as I do, that this is not a just situation, perhaps you will think of some steps that can be taken to change these policies. But the differences between the establishment magazines and the liberal and radical left

00:24:02.640 - 00:24:16.740

magazines are, in any case, negligible in the face of the overwhelming lack of respect for jazz, which all of the above named periodicals exhibit. Why this intransigent hostility to jazz on the part of establishment educators,

00:24:16.920 - 00:24:33.020

administrators, arbiters of culture and patrons of the arts. The answer, as I previously hinted, lies in the origins of jazz, particularly its black origins. Regardless of whether jazz came up the river from New Orleans or was born at Harlem

00:24:33.020 - 00:24:49.000

rant parties, or both, the popular white stereotype of it is bluntly nigger music attitudes of white intellectual supremacy and European ethnocentrism are so thoroughly ingrained in whites that is impossible for many of us, even

00:24:49.000 - 00:25:06.240

intellectuals, to conceive of a negro art as equal in esthetic value to a white. One to be sure, one may occasionally find a piece of African sculpture in the home. Of some white intellectual that is quaint or primitive. Undeniably, it is now

00:25:06.240 - 00:25:20.180

fashionable to own the recordings of Negro performers like lighten and Hopkins or Big Bill brunsey. That is folksy. But what is absolutely too threatening for most of us to bear, it seems, is the notion that American Negro artists can

00:25:20.180 - 00:25:33.200

produce a music which rivals European music in its complexity and demands on the listener's intellect. So when the grants are handed out, the visiting professorships dispensed, the awards announced for the American artists judged

00:25:33.200 - 00:25:49.360

outstanding, one will scan the list from beginning to end without encountering the name of a single jazz musician. I don't deny that there are occasional exceptions to this rule, but these are more apparent than real. Almost always. If a

00:25:49.360 - 00:26:04.740

musician is to be honored, he will be white, and therefore such a triumph will be will be an exception, nothing more. It's extremely important to understand why I say this, why rewards for white musicians cannot be taken as a vindication

00:26:05.040 - 00:26:20.180

for the music itself. It is not that whites are incapable of playing jazz. Clearly, this is not true, although nearly all whites, of necessity, choose Negro models to imitate. The point is that whites are not now, nor have they ever been, a

00:26:20.180 - 00:26:35.540

seminal force in developing the music. Two or three white jazz musicians at most have been able to leave a permanent imprint on the jazz that came after them. The major innovations have always stemmed from the black ghetto. This generalization is

00:26:35.540 - 00:26:52.660

as applicable today as it was in New Orleans in the 1920s in Chicago in the 1930s in New York in the 1940s a simple tabulation of the more than 200 instrumentalists listed by name in the 1965 International Jazz Critics Poll published by Down

00:26:52.660 - 00:27:09.420

Beat 12 August 1965 shows that over 70% of the artists considered most distinguished are Negro, and even that statistic probably understates the case nonetheless, for the same causes that have prevented jazz from assuming its rightful

00:27:09.420 - 00:27:24.920

place among the other arts, whenever the establishment seeks to acknowledge the achievement of a jazz musician, invariably it is a white hand that reaches out To grasp the prize most Negroes involved in the music rightly view such occasions as a

00:27:24.920 - 00:27:48.880

victory, not for jazz, but over it. Quote at this point a couple of questions that are asked time and time again. Why the almost systematic exclusion of qualified Negro jazz men from collegiate jazz programs. Why in a list of 30

00:27:48.880 - 00:28:04.440

teachers listed for a summer jazz clinic, are there only three Negroes? Even more ridiculous is the low percentage of Negroes teaching jazz in the college and universities that offer or specialize in jazz courses. Flows quote that comes

00:28:04.440 - 00:28:18.960

from Dave Baker in an article jazz the Academy's neglected stepchild, which downbeat published last year. The author, who is, needless to say, a negro played trombone with an avenue guard sextet led by George Russell before becoming a music

00:28:18.960 - 00:28:34.400

educator at the college level he knows then whereof he speaks. By way of further illustration, take, the case of two jazz musicians whose versatility and schooling in the European masters are roughly comparable. Pianist Cecil Taylor and

00:28:34.400 - 00:28:50.980

trumpeter Don Ellis can both boast of an extensive legitimate education, and the use of that word itself is revealing, because it implies that other kinds of music besides European are clearly illegitimate. Insofar as these two men differ,

00:28:50.980 - 00:29:07.080

it is because Ellis is white, Tara black. Need I say which one received a visiting professorship at UCLA, a Rockefeller Foundation grant and regular employment at Shelley's manhole in Los Angeles, to boot, with all due appreciation for

00:29:07.080 - 00:29:22.100

Ellis's talent, his good fortune must be held a monstrous injustice to Taylor and to jazz. The history of jazz in the 1960s cannot be written without a chapter devoted to the influence of Cecil Taylor. In that same history, Don Ellis would merit a

00:29:22.100 - 00:29:36.440

footnote, and yet it is Ellis who obtains the academic appointment and who works steadily while Taylor is deprived of all but sporadic employment, and thus he forfeits the opportunity so necessary to the creative jazz musician to

00:29:36.440 - 00:29:51.160

have his music interact with an audience. Invitations to the White House for jazz musicians provide a second index of the way in which the establishment channels its rewards primarily to whites. To my knowledge, the jazz performers who have

00:29:51.160 - 00:30:07.860

received such invitations in the last few years are Sarah Vaughan, Duke Ellington, Jerry Mulligan, Stan Getz, Paul winter, Dave Brubeck, the lamb. Matter four out of six white while I have respect for all of these artists, it is simply a

00:30:07.860 - 00:30:21.380

willful perversion of reality to argue that they represent a cross section of the best or most interesting or most vital or most relevant that the music has to offer. Why Jerry Mulligan or Dave Brubeck when the contributions of either

00:30:21.380 - 00:30:34.520

Thelonious Monk or miles Davies, both of whom are black, have been universally proclaimed in jazz circles of much greater significance? Why Paul winter, of whom nine out of 10 jazz followers have never, probably even heard, his outstanding

00:30:34.520 - 00:30:47.440

accomplishment to date having been a State Department trip to Latin America rather than the revolutionary innovations of John Coltrane. I don't have foolproof answers to these questions, but my hunch is that the groups that were invited

00:30:47.440 - 00:31:00.720

were judged to be more acceptable on both musical and social grounds. After all, one can if one doesn't know much about jazz, one can still sit and appear to be enjoying Paul winter's rather superficial music without ever bothering to

00:31:00.720 - 00:31:16.920

pay much attention. Yet you imagine responding that way to Coltrane or to miles Davies, who are not only so preoccupied with their art as actually to sweat while they play really sweat at the White House, but are, but are further guilty of the

00:31:16.920 - 00:31:31.580

unforgivable sin of having been born black. Those of you who have seen Coltrane play, particularly play in front of a black audience, will know what I mean. That kind of emotional intensity the White House is simply not yet ready for, and

00:31:31.580 - 00:31:48.820

may never be. After I finished this article, by the way, I found a material for an interesting footnote, which I'll now introduce, even within the jazz world itself. Now here, I'm not talking about the establishment. I'm talking about

00:31:48.880 - 00:32:04.380

the so called hip people who know what's happening, baby, even within the jazz world itself, the policy of white makes right prevails. This can readily be inferred, for instance, from the list of musicians chosen by Dan

00:32:04.380 - 00:32:21.620

Morgenstern, an editor of the jazz publication downbeat, to play at the series of jazz in the garden concerts sponsored by the Museum of Modern Art each summer in New York. The artist selected by Morgenstern in 1966 to represent jazz quote from

00:32:21.620 - 00:32:39.560

Dixieland to the avant garde. Closed quote, quote were according to The New York Times, Ruby Braff, Lee Konitz, Jimmy Jeffrey, the saints and sinners and Earl Henze, all but the last white the inclusion of Henze in this list, moreover, has a

00:32:39.560 - 00:32:54.820

special significance which will not be apparent to those who are unfamiliar with recent trends in jazz. Immediately after World War Two, when radical stylistic changes were taking place in the music, a coterie of white critics and entrepreneurs who

00:32:54.820 - 00:33:09.000

were unable to follow the innovations of young black bebop musicians attempted to launch a counter movement of their own, the figure they hit upon to head their movement was bunk Johnson, an aging, retired Negro trumpeter who had to be pulled

00:33:09.000 - 00:33:25.400

from obscurity and fitted with a new set of teeth before he could serve the purpose. In context, Johnson symbolized the good nigger, a negro who knew his place and didn't offend the white folk by insisting, as the bee boppers did, that his music

00:33:25.460 - 00:33:39.620

had to be treated as an art on its own terms, while Earl Henze is a gifted performer whose talents are infinitely superior to those of Johnson. It is nevertheless the case that the extraordinary revival of interest in his playing on the

00:33:39.620 - 00:33:55.480

part of white critics, beginning around 1964 is indicative of his selection as the current good nigger symbol. Accordingly, around him are rallying all those whites, such as down Beatrice editor Dan Morton Stern, who are unable to keep

00:33:55.480 - 00:34:09.900

pace with the revolutionary developments in jazz in much the same way the bizarre spectacle of Sonny Liston being presented to the boxing public as the new white hope was the result of Cassius Clay's announcement of his membership in the Nation of

00:34:09.960 - 00:34:26.600

Islam. This pattern of whites obtaining a disproportionate share of whatever fitful recognition the establishment is willing to bestow on jazz is anything but a new one, regardless of the almost exclusive creation of the music

00:34:26.600 - 00:34:41.560

by Negroes, they have never been the ones to reap the most lucrative returns. In the 1930s it was Benny Goodman, instead of Count Basie or Duke Ellington, who grew wealthy on the craze for swing music. And two decades later, it was Goodman and a

00:34:41.560 - 00:34:58.360

sometimes drummer, Gene Krupa, who had movies made out of their lives, not Ellington nor Basie, not Johannes nor Lionel Hampton, though all of these men had more to do with the genesis of swing than Goodman or Krupa put together, the situation has not

00:34:58.360 - 00:35:13.140

changed appreciably in. Interim in the 50s, Dave Brubeck preceded Thelonious Monk on the cover of Time magazine by several years. Brubeck, of course, is white monk black, despite the fact that monk's music antedates Brubeck by at

00:35:13.140 - 00:35:26.960

least a decade and has exerted a much more powerful pull on the ultimate critics of the music, the musicians themselves further when Time Magazine finally did get around to doing a feature on monk, there was a marked difference in the way it treated

00:35:26.960 - 00:35:42.880

him as compared with the way it viewed Brubeck. The latter was handled as a respectable middle class citizen with all of the conventional bourgeois virtues and only one minor idiosyncrasy, that of being a jazz pianist. Monk, on the other hand, was

00:35:42.880 - 00:35:56.560

presented to time's readers as a combination of Mad savage he wears funny hats and he does little dances and some sort of pharmacological eighth wonder of the world. If you read time, you got the idea that monk's three meals a day were all composed of

00:35:56.560 - 00:36:13.260

span jewels. The closing paragraphs of time story on. Monk then went on to depict several other Negro jazz luminaries as if they were performers in a side show. John Coltrane was portrayed as a vegetarian mystic. Miles Davies,

00:36:13.260 - 00:36:31.700

it was implied, teaches boxing to his children so they can attack whites and so on. Henze, it. But of course, time had nothing to fear from this approach. After all, unlike the case with Brubeck, here, they were only

00:36:31.700 - 00:36:46.240

dealing with niggers, it is worth stressing that more than mere honorifics are involved in the differential reception of whites and blacks by the establishment, the performer's whole way of life can be altered depending on the response his

00:36:46.240 - 00:37:02.220

music obtains. Benny Goodman has been able to retire from the ignoble occupation of jazz musician to the rarefied heights of Mozart clarinet concerti, but Duke Ellington and Count Basie are still forced to continue presenting their artistry in

00:37:02.220 - 00:37:18.180

dance halls and dingy nightclubs under a schedule of one nighters that No self respecting, legitimate artist of their stature would ever dream of accepting. A great deal of Jazz's history. Can thus be summarized with the observation

00:37:18.180 - 00:37:31.580

that despite the sweeping changes in the music which have occurred since the time of Goodman, the distribution of economic benefits has not substantially been altered, not withstanding the repeated assertion of many white jazz

00:37:31.580 - 00:37:48.160

journalists that all artists, or all avant garde artists, if they are, the ones under discussion, have as the cliche runs the same problems. There is little basis for this inane bit of conventional wisdom. Bill Nixon, an avant garde trumpeter,

00:37:48.160 - 00:38:02.160

composer and the principal organizer of a short lived musicians cooperative, the jazz composers guild, states unequivocally that white avant garde musicians are treated, quote, significantly better than our black musicians. Close,

00:38:02.160 - 00:38:16.920

quote, adding, I quote, again, white players have an economic leverage which Negro players do not. Many whites also play in symphony orchestras or work with other avant garde white musicians and a non jazz idiom and get grants and subsidies

00:38:16.920 - 00:38:34.340

from that. Don Ellis fits that bill admirably. Those white cats may be criticized a lot, but they are recognized as artists. Close quote. Nixon's argument has particular relevance to the area of what is called studio work that is semi permanent

00:38:34.340 - 00:38:48.700

employment by one of the large recording firms, television studios or motion picture corporations in New York City or Hollywood, the two centers of the music studio. Work is highly valued among jazz musicians because it provides a safety net

00:38:48.760 - 00:39:04.560

of economic security against the possibility of hard times, and also because it enables the musician to avoid the hazardous, grueling and debilitating experience of going on the road, but with some minor exceptions, such as Clark Terry and Richard

00:39:04.560 - 00:39:20.360

Davies in the east, or Harry Edison and Benny Carter in the West. Employment in the studios for jazz musicians is in general, restricted to whites. Alto saxophonist Sonny Chris a negro told a reporter from downbeat quote, talk about Los

00:39:20.360 - 00:39:39.980

Angeles. I lived here since I was 25 a period of 20 years, and never saw the inside of a movie studio in France. Within six months, I was on the Riviera playing in and for a high budget film with Tony Perkins making $200 a day. So it's well worth

00:39:39.980 - 00:39:57.520

it, if you can get inside a studio, we see who can and who can't, it would be no trouble at all to compile a prodigious catalog of experiences of black musicians similar to those of Chris for example, George Russell, a talented and much

00:39:57.520 - 00:40:12.240

admired avant garde composer and theoretician. And now expatriated to Europe. George Russell has written of, quote, dreary subway trips to Macy's or scrubbing floors or washing dishes in a Harlem Bronx or Brooklyn luncheonette to keep

00:40:12.240 - 00:40:31.400

alive. Until last year, he continues, I held a membership card in local 1199, retail drug Workers Union of New York, a statement that few white musicians of any persuasion could duplicate. Indeed, the situation for Negro avant garde

00:40:31.400 - 00:40:46.840

jazz artists in particular has become so bleak that one of them, the gifted and iconoclastic pianist Andrew Hill, has been reduced to the expedient of calling on readers of downbeat to send him $1 each quote so that I can survive and

00:40:46.840 - 00:41:04.380

that will be appreciated in the true spirit of brotherhood. Close quote. One concludes from this chilling survey that the attempt of the establishment to utilize jazz to win Cold War propaganda victories like that of Duke Ellington and Dakar has

00:41:04.380 - 00:41:19.140

not resulted in fundamental improvement in the black jazz musicians social status or economic well being. On the contrary, this is but the most recent in a series of expropriations by which the black community has been

00:41:19.140 - 00:41:34.460

deprived of the fruits that should have accrued to it from its musical innovations. But although the status quo has not been materially altered, the response of black artists has consciousness of the exploitative conditions under

00:41:34.460 - 00:41:51.280

which jazz musicians are forced to create has, of course, always been present, but it has been only recently that protest against them has become explicit and unremitting. In the early 50s, an anonymous California musician bemoaned the plight of

00:41:51.280 - 00:42:05.520

the black man in jazz to German critic Johannes barent In despairing tones, I quote you see, as soon as we have a music, the white man comes and imitates it. We've now had jazz for 50 years, and in all those 50 years, there has not been a

00:42:05.520 - 00:42:19.380

single white man, perhaps leaving aside big spider back who has had an idea. Only the colored men have ideas. But if you see who's got the famous names, they're all white. What can we do? We must go on inventing something now new all

00:42:19.380 - 00:42:33.740

the time. When we have it, the whites will take it from us, and we have to start all over again. It is, it is as though we were being hunted now, however, the tone of despair is gone, replaced by one which mingles militant discontent. We are not

00:42:33.740 - 00:42:49.660

angry. Young men, tenor saxophonist Archie Shep told one interviewer we are enraged and political radicalism in equal proportions. Quote, The Black people are becoming more and more dissatisfied, and if changes don't take place, within

00:42:49.660 - 00:43:06.720

10 years, there'll be a revolution. Close. Quote, Those are the words not of some aggressive a favorite term among white writers, upstart, but of trumpeter Dizzy Gillespie, one of the most popular and widely respected jazz musicians ever to

00:43:06.720 - 00:43:22.880

put horn to lips, and incidentally, one most often chosen by the State Department to go on tour. As shocking as Gillespie's statement has seemed to some in the jazz world, it pales beside the sentiment heard from the younger generation of

00:43:22.880 - 00:43:39.080

black avant garde artists, it is widely rumored, for example, that prominent avant garde musicians on the west coast have affiliated themselves with the WEB DuBois clubs, while in New York, Archie Shep voices his denunciation of quote, these

00:43:39.080 - 00:43:53.860

United States, which, in my estimation, is one of the most vicious racist social systems in the world, with the possible exceptions of Southern Rhodesia, South Africa and South Vietnam. For a moment, a helpless witness to the bloody massacre of my

00:43:53.860 - 00:44:09.660

people on streets that run from Hans Ville through Harlem shebb demands of his readers. Don't you ever wonder just what my collective rage will be like when it is as inevitably it must be unleashed our vindication will be black as the color of

00:44:09.660 - 00:44:27.320

suffering is black as Fidel is black as Ho Chi Minh is black. It is thus that I offer my right hand across the worlds of suffering to black compatriots everywhere when they fall victim to war, disease, poverty, all systematically imposed. I fall

00:44:27.320 - 00:44:42.580

with them, and I am a yellow skin, and they are black like me, or even white for them and me, I offer this prayer that this 28th year of mine will never again find us all so poor, nor the rapine forces of the world in such sanguinary

00:44:42.580 - 00:44:58.360

circumstances. End quote here speaks the new radicalism of the black jazz musician, given this degree of political sophistication and the willingness to articulate it, one suspects that as an establishment weapon in the Cold

00:44:58.360 - 00:45:35.960

War, jazz may yet. Turn out to be a sword with two edges. You Unknown: before we proceed with the rest of the this evening's discussion, I'll have a few announcements. The first announcement is that we will proceed for the next period that

00:45:35.960 - 00:45:52.060

is as much discussion as necessary, as many questions that you have of Mr. Karski and after that, everyone is invited to have coffee, talk cake and whatever we have in the kitchen and browse and get their nose in the literature that we have in

00:45:52.060 - 00:46:05.520

the back of the room of a special interest, dudie nice form, which does deal with the revolution that is black radicalism, although specifically with jazz, we do have quite a bit of literature that deals generally with the

00:46:05.520 - 00:46:20.300

black revolution in this country. We have quite a few pamphlets by Malcolm X, and much other literature available. So just get your nose in there, and maybe you'll pick up something you like. Tonight. I'd like to mention to all those who came in

00:46:20.300 - 00:46:34.940

late that Mr. Coxky will be giving the second Hawk of a series of lectures here at the forum at eight o'clock tomorrow night. And the topic tomorrow night will be revolution in jazz, the new black radicalism. We will also use some music to

00:46:34.940 - 00:46:51.280

illustrate some of the points that he's going to make. I'd also bring to you, like to bring to your attention the latest issue of the militant which you can pick up in the rear. There's a great deal in the latest issue about the war in Vietnam,

00:46:51.580 - 00:47:07.200

dealing with the new escalation of the Johnson administration and the need to build a real big international days of protest throughout the country and throughout the world. There's an article of special interest in terms of the radical movement,

00:47:07.320 - 00:47:21.380

or you may call it the radical movement, I'm not too sure in this country that is, there's a extensive article on the Communist Party and the convention that they just recently had. And also, there's a special article by Puerto

00:47:21.380 - 00:47:36.920

Rican who's a member of the Puerto Rican independence movement on the movement that is going on now in Puerto Rico to maintain its independence from American imperialism. The latest issue of the bring the troops home now newsletter is also in

00:47:36.920 - 00:47:51.640

I'm sure everybody has read it, and I'm sure you're going to rush to the back and pick it up as soon as you can. There's a special article there on three GIs who have refused to go to Vietnam and fight. And there probably will be a big campaign

00:47:51.640 - 00:48:10.680

made nationally in defense of these three GIs who are refusing to fight in Vietnam. I guess we cannot proceed to the question and answers. And I would urge you everybody to keep their comments as brief as possible, to give everybody a chance for

00:48:10.680 - 00:48:29.600

some discussion with Mr. Koski. Are there any questions, though, I don't remember you're mentioning Toby, and every time I newspaper Kees, but he's one of the favorites that sends over Linley to ask,

00:48:31.400 - 00:48:47.020

especially Henze, who are the villages. And I thought maybe comment on Frank Kofsky: his role. He has a nice smile and a big set of teeth. Do it. Louis Armstrong comes from the generation of

00:48:47.020 - 00:49:01.020

jazz musicians who are who think of themselves as entertainers, not as artists, since this is what the white public in general wants. This is why Louis Armstrong represents no threat to their consciousness, and why it is perfectly safe to

00:49:01.920 - 00:49:16.380

celebrate Louis Armstrong, even while you have full intentions of maintaining patterns of white supremacy, I don't see that there's any much this man has no critique of Louis Armstrong. He is as much the product of his environment as anyone else. But

00:49:16.380 - 00:49:43.720

the point of view, fact of the matter is that this is the way he is viewed by the white public, did I see another Question? I didn't see one. Oh, yes. It Unknown: was like, simultaneously don't like the

00:49:43.720 - 00:49:57.940

way they've taken it over when they've taken over. But then, if you want to support it, what would you turn Frank Kofsky: times for? Well, my real position is complex, and

00:49:57.940 - 00:50:17.040

what I say is this, that. It, what I what I object to more than anything else, as I say, is the hypocrisy of using Jazz as a Cold War weapon on the one hand, and then excluding the people who are the creators of jazz from any of the economic

00:50:17.040 - 00:50:33.620

benefits on the other now, I realize that there are limitations to the support which the establishment can give to Cecil Tara. Guggenheim for Cecil Taylor, I would much rather have Cecil Taylor supported by a socialist state than I would by

00:50:33.620 - 00:50:46.900

a Guggenheim grant. But those at the moment that is not the viable alternative, the viable alternative, the viable alternatives for Cecil Taylor are the Guggenheim grant or starvation, and since they are broadcasting the music of Cecil

00:50:46.900 - 00:51:00.220

Taylor and other black musicians over the international airwaves, I feel that an elementary step towards rectifying this injustice would be that Guggenheim, With the long range end still kept in view so

00:51:04.140 - 00:51:19.980

Unknown: you, yes. Few years ago, I read that Charles Lincoln stated that he was tired of either going on tours or playing Black Henze and played the streets Weldon Kees for the people

00:51:22.620 - 00:51:37.580

there and people there. I was wondering, since Frank Kofsky: has there been any effort? Yes, there has. One of the myths of white critics is that the revolutionary black

00:51:37.580 - 00:51:57.820

music has no popularity among Black people, but it is a creation of white, neurotic Bohemians in Greenwich Village lofts. This is, for example, the position of Mr. Ira Gitler. This is not true, actually, given, well, given the limitations of

00:51:58.060 - 00:52:14.580

white recording company executives, it's fair to say that there is as much black support for the new music as can be expected or reasonably anticipated. There have been attempts, moreover, to wed the ghetto to the new black music,

00:52:14.700 - 00:52:31.100

black arts. Leroy Jones' black arts theater school, while it was still in existence, was carrying this out, and it presented concerts by several of the newer musicians, like Albert Ehler, Marion, brown, sonny, Murray, son, Ra and so on. Now

00:52:31.100 - 00:52:45.280

the black arts theater school has broken up, but there are other black arts groups. There is one in Washington, and there's even an attempt to form one in Pittsburgh, and there's one in Newark, New Jersey. So the answer is yes, but the

00:52:45.460 - 00:52:57.820

degree of effort that's gone into bringing the new black music into the ghettos and involving it specifically in the lives of the people there, which is what its practitioners want, which is what Cecil Taylor has gone on record explicitly as

00:52:57.820 - 00:53:14.400

calling for the effort so far remain rudimentary. The problem is here, one of economic wherewithal, most, the support of jazz comes in large part from white pockets. That's easy to understand. There are more whites than blacks, and whites

00:53:14.400 - 00:53:28.580

have more money. In general, all you have to do is look and see where most jazz clubs are located, or the bulk of them are located and they're located in white areas. So it isn't enough to bring jazz to the black ghetto. It's also a problem of,

00:53:28.580 - 00:53:59.380

once you've got it there, how do you keep black musicians alive? Unknown: A respected musician and the artist in Soviet Union. And recently, I spoke to someone who was brother, was over in the Soviet Union, had a conference with suzyn, and he

00:54:00.700 - 00:54:21.540

said that stroudinski was not able to speak really. He was clear that the room was about and that the visual artist there was not able to change. And how can you say that someone that an artist was given support from such a place and seemed going to

00:54:21.540 - 00:54:37.700

classical type form of the artist? And not Frank Kofsky: the new graduate. Well, I admit I went out on a limb on that point, and it isn't by any means clear cut exactly how one can generalize. There are I would be a fool and a liar

00:54:37.700 - 00:54:49.840

to attempt to deny that there are constraints placed on artists in the Soviet Union. For those artists who feel they can work within these constraints without violating their integrity, they have, I think, a larger degree of self respect

00:54:49.840 - 00:55:05.040

than artists in this society, and certainly they have more economic well being the case of artists who don't, who cannot operate inside those constraints. It's a difficult case. And if you look at that, then it's obviously, it's

00:55:05.040 - 00:55:17.460

obvious that here is a limitation of my generalization. All I would say at this point is even so the situation of American artists is not necessarily any better. Archie Shepp, for example, tells me that he is followed by the FBI

00:55:17.460 - 00:55:32.960

and that his phone has been bugged. And as far as freedom to speak out, it's notorious that what jazz musicians will say in private they will not say in public, because they fear being to coin a phrase, blacklisted. They fear being kept out of

00:55:32.960 - 00:55:50.140

nightclubs and kept out of the kept away from recording contracts. What I was trying to do there is strike a balance and look at the artist in the Soviet Union as a whole, and compare him with the status of the jazz musician in this country. And I

00:55:50.140 - 00:56:04.980

think that even though there are exceptions and the generalization is faulty, if you push it to the extreme, I think that as a generalization, it will stand up that even the very fact that the artist is restricted and constrained in

00:56:04.980 - 00:56:20.100

the Soviet Union, argues that people take art seriously, which I think is not an argument that you could push with much validity about art in the United States, and particularly about the art of jazz and the establishment at that point, all

00:56:20.100 - 00:56:46.840

I can add Is that you're free to disagree if you reject my estimate of The situation, California. Unknown: Poland there's been a great deal more freedom of the arts than the Soviet Union witnessed by the Experimental

00:56:47.680 - 00:57:00.940

Film Art coming out of Poland, and there's been evidence. There's been a great deal of freedom in Cuba and even in Poland. I was wondering if you have any knowledge of the element of Afro Cuban music in Cuba

00:57:02.860 - 00:57:22.280

to Cuban? Frank Kofsky: No, I really don't it's very difficult to get information on artistic developments. The only person I know who would be competent to report on that would be Saul

00:57:22.460 - 00:57:33.440

Landau, who, and I don't even know if Saul Landau has any background in music, I'd like to send I'd like to see Professor Timothy Harding go there, because Timothy Harding is, although he's a professor of history, he's also an expert

00:57:33.440 - 00:57:47.200

musicologist and ethno musicologist, and he perhaps could come back and say what is happening, but denied any first hand information or any recordings. I have no idea what's happening, except I read that there is a revitalization

00:57:48.280 - 00:58:01.140

of the dance in Cuba. I'm glad, by the way, that you mentioned that there are other socialist states beside the Soviet Union. I guess I really handicap myself by restricting my discussion to that. And what you've illustrated there, I think is

00:58:01.140 - 00:58:32.600

something that I once read about called the law of combined and uneven development. Unknown: Did you get the relationship between fear now? How many of the areas do true that an awful lot of

00:58:32.840 - 00:58:54.640

these fishes, at least have had some Frank Kofsky: experiences? Yes, that certainly, well, I really don't know. I'm not an expert on that, and I'm not prepared to say all I can talk about is the situation in

00:58:54.640 - 00:59:08.040

the United States. I had a friend, Milton Ramey, who, when I was living in Los Angeles, was working in Santa Ana with three other musicians, and he said that the police on the Santa Ana freeway had a special radar built into their car that they

00:59:08.040 - 00:59:27.740

used to detect black people because he was stopped every night on the way home. Can you imagine Glenn Gould being clubbed around the head by policemen outside of, say, the Lincoln Center. Well, that that happened to miles Davies in, oh,

00:59:27.740 - 00:59:44.860

I don't know, six or seven years ago, I discussed this with a white piano player, Steve Kuhn, when I participated in a forum on jazz and revolutionary black nationalism in New York in December, and Mr. Kuhn assured me that this could have been an

00:59:44.860 - 00:59:58.000

accident. Well, of course, it could have been an accident, but somehow I'm skeptical of that explanation. Yes, black jazz musicians are afraid of the police. I don't think that it's necessary to refer to dope addiction, because most of

00:59:58.000 - 01:00:13.080

especially most of the younger jazz musicians. That I know of are in the vernacular clean. In fact, many of them are health food fans and are very convinced of the importance of maintaining a proper diet and maintaining a healthy regimen. But

01:00:13.080 - 01:00:28.100

nonetheless, that doesn't mean that they cannot be accused of and in many cases, convicted of carrying narcotic or marijuana by the police, if the police want to use this as A means of harassing them. Yes,

01:00:40.000 - 01:01:42.440

Unknown: American, basically American now, was getting the most sedimentary. Around like Kees or something like that. But anyway,

01:01:42.440 - 01:02:21.260

Western and Frank Kofsky: school? Do they? Well, I guess because they're not hip. It seems to me, before, if you if you wish to return to the days of Khrushchev as an art

01:02:21.260 - 01:02:35.240

critic, and use that as an instance. It seems to me that before Mr. Khrushchev could turn the statements of black jazz musicians against the United States, he would first have to be aware that there was something called Jazz, and he

01:02:36.080 - 01:02:51.880

would have to understand something about it. And I think this is a highly unlikely development you'll have to ask Myra Tanner Weldon about that. I'm not an expert on that. They're working in

01:03:02.620 - 01:03:28.040

Unknown: Africa. Frank Kofsky: Business. I think, I think I understand what your question is. The question is, why don't socialist block countries use jazz then, if it is a double edged weapon, why

01:03:28.040 - 01:03:39.980

isn't it turned against the establishment? Well, I really, I wasn't joking when I said I didn't think that the people in the Soviet Union who were in charge of directing policy were him. I mean, they're not basically, they are bureaucratic

01:03:39.980 - 01:03:51.280

and mentality. And if you wanted to pick a word to describe the way they think, they think like squares, they think like in this regard, at least, they think like white American squares, although politically, they of course, have different points of

01:03:51.400 - 01:04:02.520

view. I would expect, if there is a movement to use jazz in this way, that it would come from Cuba. It would not come from the Soviet Union. It might come from Poland. There is a great deal of interest from Poland, of interest in jazz from

01:04:02.520 - 01:04:15.420

Poland. But as we all know about the Soviet bureaucracy, they are uneasy, and they are nervous, and they are especially suspicious of anything that comes from the West, which they regard as an incipient threat to their prerogative. So it's not

01:04:15.720 - 01:04:41.540

surprising that they haven't picked up on the significance of jazz, nor would I really expect that they would? Did you have a question? Oh, okay, but you have a statement. Unknown: When you knock chapter six, you talk about part of the

01:04:41.540 - 01:04:59.920

culture, Chinese, the Japanese. You talk about jazz, you're not jazz and you're not part of the subculture of Afro American. Okay, not good. So why wouldn't you not say, why wouldn't I say?