00:00:01.760 - 00:00:29.360

Unknown: Understand he's had a breakdown in Pittsburgh. Yeah? Freddie Harper was with him, you know? Yeah, I know. I think he left. I think he left. He might go back to a thing when I understand also he's had certain domestic problems that probably

00:00:29.360 - 00:00:52.060

has affected him as well he's raised for the first question some writers have the music. What do you think about the phrase the new black music as a

00:00:52.060 - 00:01:07.440

description of some of the newer styles that younger musicians are playing? New black music? Well, some writers have used that phrase. Yeah. Well, about, let's see, four and a half, no three and a

00:01:07.440 - 00:01:31.700

half, four years ago, when I was playing with our Blakey, they used to, they used another term. Then it may not have anything to do with what they call black music today, but they sort of dubbed a few musicians with the term hate music or something

00:01:31.700 - 00:01:57.640

like that, or angry Music, rebel music. But this was to say that music itself was being presented by musicians who were angry and just drugged with all kinds of situations. But the terminology black music today,

00:02:00.040 - 00:02:18.240

I think is an offshoot of that, and that's how my thinking goes. When it was called hate music. Do you think that was an accurate description? I don't know. I don't know really, who gave it

00:02:18.240 - 00:02:35.420

that name? Was it the musicians who called it that? Or nothing that came out of listeners and critics. And maybe some musicians even agreed with other musicians, but some musicians had, they had a faction. What do you call it?

00:02:35.420 - 00:03:00.540

Faction thing going between them for a while, and I think it was, it was a term which which came out of many from from many different sources, and a lot of people just hooked on to it to be in tune with the times. So I think maybe that was a starting

00:03:00.540 - 00:03:16.380

point for what you might call black music today, for yourself, would you ever use the term Latin black music or black music description of what you're doing? You don't think it's inaccurate description?

00:03:16.740 - 00:03:35.480

No, I don't think so. In fact, for me, really doesn't mean anything, except for the fact that some people are tagged with it, and that's as far as it goes. You can be tagged with it, and it's

00:03:35.480 - 00:04:02.460

up to the person who's tagged to live and I and write and play accordingly, regardless of the tag. But I don't think I try to stay away from labor because it's too restricting if I try to live a label, if I agreed with black music and tried to live it

00:04:03.120 - 00:04:19.320

in my own way, that would be very restricted as a whole person. Well, do you see the music as having any social or political implications?

00:04:20.220 - 00:04:54.520

Yes. Yes, I can see, whereas music can be used just as anything can be used as a tool for some sort of social breakthrough, political breakthrough. And I don't think that music should be used solely as a tool for that. Music is

00:04:54.520 - 00:05:25.940

used for many different reasons. I believe I. But one of the most accurate expressions that I've heard from a major composer, Igor Stravinsky, was it music expresses itself. And that's

00:05:25.940 - 00:05:42.400

what he as a composer, was trying to do. Someone asked him, What are you trying to express? And he said, I'm not trying to express anything. I'm trying to formulate the music so that he can express itself. In fact, in other words, I think he was

00:05:42.400 - 00:05:57.280

trying to get as close to creation as possible, leaving himself out of it. So I think he was by dancing, all the social things, the implications, the tools and instrumentation, you know, using music.

00:06:00.640 - 00:06:14.340

Do you think it's wrong for musicians to try and express social and political ideas in music? No, I don't think it's wrong, but there has to be something more than that.

00:06:16.140 - 00:06:33.500

So yes, I think if they want to express the social environment, the social the times, the current events and all that, and protest through music or something like that. I think they should keep moving, because it's part of a journey. But if

00:06:33.500 - 00:06:49.960

they stop and stay right on one groove and keep protesting and protesting through music, I think they'll have to reckon with whatever happens all by themselves. Because I say that because I don't know what's going

00:06:49.960 - 00:07:08.160

to happen. You mean happen in a musical sense or happen in a social sense, happen in musical and social because they may get hung up in the social thing musically, and they may the thing that they're

00:07:08.160 - 00:07:21.500

progressing against may turn around. And then I don't, I say, Is it their music might become out because the conditions would change,

00:07:21.860 - 00:07:52.960

I'm thinking, I'm thinking that if the conditions change and they stay too long within the testing bag, then other veins of music will be far in advance, and the happiness therein, you know, may be lost if this one particular musician is still

00:07:52.960 - 00:08:10.800

protesting, even though the conditions have changed, he's protesting musically, and Then his instrument is no longer useful to him. So in other words, to be valid as art as well as protest, one

00:08:10.800 - 00:08:41.800

has to keep pace with the developments in the art as well as with what's going on around you in the society. Yes, I think at the world the same old phrase, I guess you heard a lot of times, getting smaller the earth, and we have a lot of

00:08:41.800 - 00:09:03.240

problems in certain areas of the Earth, but we have to keep our eye on the whole earth, the whole spirit. And this, if we do that, I'm speaking of artists, maybe we will be able to approach

00:09:03.540 - 00:09:19.920

creation. Let me ask you this, do you think that there's any significance in the fact that Malcolm X, when he was alive, was a lover of jazz, love music and a friend of many musicians?

00:09:19.920 - 00:09:35.060

Do Yes, I think it had a lot to do with his his growth, because he he met a lot of musicians when he was a young youngster. I'm a

00:09:35.060 - 00:09:54.760

teenager, and I imagine he talked with a lot of them about their travels and experiences and things like that. And a lot of these issues have been around the globe, many, many times. And I think this was a seed in the back of his mind, which

00:09:55.240 - 00:10:15.180

eventually led him to travel for another cause, not for music, but another cause. Because he knew that the world was bigger than Roxbury, Massachusetts, 1/25 Street in Harlem. We talked about ideas being put in the music. Do you think that

00:10:15.180 - 00:10:27.380

any of the ideas that he stood for can be found in this new music? Yes, I think a lot of his ideas are very obvious in some of the so called new music. I call it that

00:10:27.440 - 00:10:49.840

for lack of a better name, but I don't see his ideas in the new music as being what he called violent, the violent reaction musically, or the anger I see in some of the new music his

00:10:52.060 - 00:11:11.640

the change that he went through after he came back from from Mecca, later travels I see some of the music. Some of it, I see more onerous culmination,

00:11:17.040 - 00:11:33.020

have musical results, and it's hard to say whether the composers of this new music, the composer was really sitting down and thinking about Malcolm X. I think maybe the influence of Malcolm X's ideas just

00:11:34.580 - 00:12:00.520

illuminated, and some of us were touched without knowing it. And I guess maybe we can see it in some paintings, poetry, his illumination and illumination of many other men, I guess his illumination can be mistaken for anger. I

00:12:01.420 - 00:12:21.500

mean that black Muslim influence bad nigger. So that's only if you're looking for only which a lot of people are. Yeah, would you ever consider dedicating one of your compositions to Malcolm X, but

00:12:22.340 - 00:12:38.780

for that matter, to anybody in public life, yes, I would. I have, I have dedicated this blue album, which is coming out at the end of September or beginning of October. It's a

00:12:38.780 - 00:13:07.200

nine piece group. And I dedicated it to the Creator. I bypass man for a minute just to think about the creator for a second. And I call the creator the all seeing eye. Of course, I've dedicated some things to my wife, my child, but this is the

00:13:07.200 - 00:13:29.240

first album I've made which I really tried to think about something beyond man, and yet something which is part of man, it can be a part of his imagination. Some of us imagine creator, but I've been thinking about 30 people lately. You

00:13:29.240 - 00:13:47.260

know, I can write something and dedicate it to someone, without saying it, without labeling, without having it written on the back of the album. Who else that would be publicly known inspires you that way. This may

00:13:47.260 - 00:14:18.060

seem. I may seem to be a surprise, like a surprise, but there's one, one man's name keeps rolling over my mind ever since he made a visit here, with his first visit here, and he made a

00:14:18.060 - 00:14:37.580

speech at the UN now I'm still thinking about what he said, and I'm watching him, watching what he's what he's doing, what he's talking about. I don't know if I'm going to dedicate any music to him or anything like that, but his name, his name, and his

00:14:37.580 - 00:14:45.580

image and what he's talking about is still rolling around in the back of my mind. Let me guess. Let me see if I can guess who it is. Fidel Castro

00:14:51.760 - 00:15:14.640

visited here and spoke at the UN Yeah, I had other ideas about Catholicism and. Pope, you name it, and I'm just beginning to realize that I'm gonna put it this way,

00:15:14.640 - 00:15:33.920

even a pope can have a lot of insight, especially a pope during these times. I think he came along at the right time. Now we just have to sit and wait and see what which way he goes from from,

00:15:33.980 - 00:15:55.060

from the supposedly good start that he's had. I think John knew knew what was happening, too. I think he knew. He knew about Paul before he died, he knew a lot about him. I guess he knew that Paul could do some things that he couldn't. So I'm

00:15:55.060 - 00:16:15.360

starting to stretch my mind think beyond the confines of United States borders or any border of any country. Speaking of the border of the United States, some musicians have said that this music is born

00:16:16.620 - 00:16:34.460

out of conditions of oppression and suffering, and that it's opposed to these conditions, and because of that, it's also opposed to what the United States is doing in Vietnam today. Do you have any thoughts about that statement? You can

00:16:34.460 - 00:17:03.720

separate it into two parts if you want. I think that if Ho Chi Minh could play a bass fiddle well enough to fit him with a jazz group, and he bring your Kees

00:17:05.640 - 00:17:18.120

play a trumpet well enough to sit in with a jazz group. Johnson, all the heads of the nations could play some kind of instrument and sit in with the same jazz group and play together.

00:17:21.120 - 00:17:42.940

This is, this is kind of satirical, but they just get together and have a jam session. I think a lot of things will be cleared up, but this is impossible, I know, but they're not dealing with music. They're

00:17:42.940 - 00:18:18.060

dealing with politics and all that. But I do hear little bits of frozen Hans in music concerning to be in the Vietnam War. A lot of musicians against the war. Lot of artists in general, artists all over they're just against all kinds

00:18:18.060 - 00:18:31.400

of war. Yeah. The consensus seems to be that art is for humanity and opposed to senseless killing of innocent people. I found that among

00:18:31.400 - 00:18:49.480

musicians, even the musicians who don't like to think about politics at all, will have something to say about the war and something pretty unfavorable to the United States policy. Even if they don't, they don't always put it in the most direct

00:18:49.660 - 00:19:06.240

terms, but if you read between the lines of what they're saying, this is fairly clear. I just say war and war and music, war and art don't really go together unless you

00:19:08.640 - 00:19:24.020

want to paint a picture of a great big battle scene and sell it for $30 million a masterpiece of people getting wasted. Picasso did that in the 1930s in Spain. I mean, not to sell it for $30 million dollars to depict the tragedy that was then

00:19:24.020 - 00:19:42.220

being inflicted on the Spanish people by Franco fascist in that sense too. Yeah. What are your opinions, in general, on working conditions for the musicians? Do you feel that, on the whole, they are

00:19:42.220 - 00:19:57.700

treated as artists deserve to be treated, and if you don't think they are, I'd like to know why you think they are treated less well than they deserve. They are not treated as artists in this country, especially,

00:19:57.700 - 00:20:25.220

they're not treated. As artists, meaning they're not treated as not special people, overly special people. They're not treated as human beings who have something to give, something to say. Evidence of this you can get from a movie many movie

00:20:25.220 - 00:20:48.220

stars, too, movie stars that make a lot of money, and they still talk about the dressing rooms in the theaters on Broadway, Uptown. I mean Midtown, Broadway, midtown Manhattan, dressing room, cramp, no real accommodations. And I've

00:20:48.280 - 00:21:05.340

heard from some greatest, biggest stars in the United States, Academy Award winners, they say the same thing, no matter how many academy awards they may win how much money they make when they come to Broadway. Dressing rooms still the same

00:21:05.340 - 00:21:33.500

and getting good musicians, we limited to nightclubs and concerts, and now they have jazz and Museum of Modern Art, now different places, but it's not enough. Now, you know what nightclubs usually look like. Kitchen we shouldn't have to

00:21:34.400 - 00:21:51.340

play music in competition with jingling cash registers and liquor and all that all the time. Do you feel that the fact that the musicians who play music, by and large, have been negro? Do you feel that this makes it

00:21:51.340 - 00:22:09.060

easier for the people who control the music to abuse the musicians, to treat them poorly? Negro element, because they're dealing with second class citizens generally. Oh, yeah. Well, that

00:22:09.060 - 00:22:21.260

makes it easy. That even makes it easier to be treated as such as, see they have to get the first step first, be treated as a human, and then

00:22:22.460 - 00:22:36.860

look into the particular attributes of the human, of the human involved. You mean artist versus non artist, something like that. Yes, first you have to respect the person as a human building,

00:22:36.860 - 00:22:53.080

and then then you can open up that other eye and see what his gifts are, if he has any. Because if you don't respect black people, then it's essentially you're not going to treat black artists particularly

00:22:53.080 - 00:23:07.140

well, right? Because if you do and you don't respect a person as a man, as a human being, or a woman as a woman, and you talk outside of your mouth say, Oh, he's a great, he's great, he's great.

00:23:07.320 - 00:23:24.800

It's hypocritical person. I'd rather somebody come to me say he's human. He's human, yeah, in this music in particular, do you think that white musicians are given a significantly better treatment

00:23:25.100 - 00:23:43.360

than black? You mean musicians who say, I don't like to say specialize in jazz, but play the art called Jazz, primarily Yes, and nine times out of 10 Most musicians today can play jazz

00:23:43.780 - 00:24:19.440

and sit in a century or do a lot of things when the word jazz comes into the mind of people I have seen musicians here's what I'm trying to say. I know that there are certain people I couldn't name, but you can see, you can you can tell,

00:24:19.560 - 00:24:42.220

by the way, the structure, the structure of this country warrants their start. The Caucasian musician playing jazz in the United States, I think would be a victim

00:24:45.280 - 00:25:09.180

of the society. Inversely, there will be, would be, there will be people unknown to the musician who would try to. Hold him up above the degree and get him out of the way of the hard times and

00:25:09.180 - 00:25:27.680

everything the right. Hoa, yeah. They put money in certain places, publicity and certain push publicity in certain areas to to push they might say, our time now the musician, the Caucasian

00:25:27.680 - 00:25:45.580

musician, he wants to be. I know a lot of them who want to be just musicians and play, but I know and they know that they are inversely victims of people who want to do good for them,

00:25:47.560 - 00:26:04.140

because they shouldn't have to suffer. Yeah, now I know Caucasian musicians, I'm talking about intelligent enough to know that they don't have to say, Well, look, I'm going to suffer to prove that I'm cool with you, with all my

00:26:04.740 - 00:26:27.560

black brothers, I'm cool. I'm going to go through some basic dudes. I'm going to do this and do that, intelligent enough to know that they don't have to do that. But I do know that like say, since the 60s, the late 50s and 60s, a lot of the younger

00:26:28.700 - 00:26:56.260

musicians, right? They sort of turn their head to the money that's handed out to them, the young ones they want to play. And the only way they can prove anything, not to US Colored musicians or anything like that, because I'm

00:26:56.260 - 00:27:10.620

thinking the same way, I have to prove something, just to myself, to themselves, right? And the younger people all over, not only musicians, but the students. Wow. The whole thing, everyone's like measuring themselves against themselves.

00:27:10.620 - 00:27:23.360

They don't want A's in plays. I'm talking about the money that people want to give you money. It's like giving you an A because it's like you're all kind. That doesn't count as much as convincing yourself that you you

00:27:23.360 - 00:27:36.260

have some Yeah, and at the same time they don't have to, they're feeling now that doesn't have to. Tom to us this inverted, inverted Uncle Tommy, I mean, that thing we all just get rid of that time.

00:27:38.120 - 00:27:48.580

That's why I can sit here and talk to you straight. That seems also to be the consensus among the black musicians that I've talked to. They say, Well, it's true, no white musician will play the way a black musician will play

00:27:48.580 - 00:27:58.720

because they have different background, different environment, but as long as they come into the music and play themselves, that's all that anybody wants. If they're good musically, nobody beyond that point, nobody cares.

00:27:59.980 - 00:28:12.840

Yeah, because what you have to look for is the human thing kind of got play or not, yeah? Train has a very interesting way of putting that. He says, Well, to me, a man, a man is his voice on the instrument, and that's all,

00:28:16.440 - 00:28:33.620

yeah, yeah. That's a good that's a good way of putting it, because that's like, I say the human thing, like, if you don't hear, say, a light musician staying up there, playing in the

00:28:33.980 - 00:28:51.100

microphone, listening. Now, if he's thinking narrow, he might say, Well, this guy ain't got no soul, but I'm thinking that that what he's listening for is his background. Yeah, his the thing that he's he's gotten

00:28:51.100 - 00:29:12.300

around to as a child, the thing that he's heard in church and everything. But he opens up his mind. He'll hear his musicians background, of course, he'll hear his thing. So I think what I'm trying to say is, right now, in the 60s, everyone's ears

00:29:12.300 - 00:29:30.380

like, got people with big ears now minds, thanks to a lot of young people. Yeah, right. But the thing is, there is that tendency outside of the music or on the periphery, to uplift the white musicians, to give them a

00:29:30.380 - 00:29:42.280

better break, to protect them against the circumstances and so forth, yeah? Like, if you have a fellowship to give out at UCLA, you'll give it to Cecil Taylor, I mean to Don Ellis instead of the CESA

00:29:42.280 - 00:30:01.680

Tara, that kind of thing, even though there's no question much more in terms of contributing to the music. These are Lou gooders, the people around who push back. Foundations and the universities

00:30:01.680 - 00:30:19.020

and the establishment generally. And they think along traditional lines. Usually they think that way, unless the students change everything around which they've been doing very effectively. I think when I say students,

00:30:19.020 - 00:30:32.600

that's another label, just young people, young people who refuse to live by outgoing conventions and their parents want to twice stop on them. Yes, because their parents are the ones who are actually supporting

00:30:33.380 - 00:30:48.640

colleges and things like that with their taxes, not taxes, but yeah, taxes, taxes, and some families, I know they do donate money to keep certain schools not only going but going in a certain direction. Yeah, a certain direction. Build a new

00:30:48.640 - 00:31:09.000

wing over here with certain restrictions. Yeah, of course. Of course. Well, the University of Pittsburgh, the Dean of Students, a woman calls in white co ed to date Negro boys on a steady basis and literally tells

00:31:09.000 - 00:31:20.960

them that they can't, that they're liable to be expelled and that that doesn't work, calls in the parents. Now this is what obviously, either this woman thinks this is what the parents of those students want, or else this is actually what

00:31:20.960 - 00:31:39.680

those parents do want. But there's not what the youth want. They don't want to be bound by these racist, senseless restrictions. Well, that's the whole thing, the do gooders. It's happening

00:31:39.800 - 00:31:55.060

in the social life as well as professional life. Anything professional has introduced into a social scene, and watch out for them. Do gooders, they messed up the social scene already well enough.

00:31:57.640 - 00:32:12.120

Getting back to working conditions for a minute, some musicians have called for various measures to be taken like I recall reading that Cecil Tara called for a boycott against recording companies and nightclub owners and Bill Nixon

00:32:12.120 - 00:32:21.140

and Cecil tried organized the jazz composers guild. What do you think about these measures? Do you think that they are worthwhile, and do you have anything along those lines yourself.

00:32:23.300 - 00:32:59.740

Well, boycott, I guess any boycott can work if you get everybody to do it like, if you get everybody, every single person, to do it like, do explode like drastic if you got all of the doctors in the United States to quit practice, to stop

00:32:59.740 - 00:33:18.360

practicing their medicine. When Medicare was being debated in Congress, there was a threat to that kind of boycott. Yeah, all of them, all of the soldiers, United States Army, refused to

00:33:18.360 - 00:33:37.760

take any orders. What thought all of them in every part of the globe, wherever station. And if you got all the musicians, colored musicians, stop recording, I don't think you

00:33:40.360 - 00:34:03.300

I don't think that would be as effective as getting all of the musicians white and colored who are involved in the thing called American jazz, American creative music, light and colored music. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to break away from saying, but you

00:34:03.300 - 00:34:16.800

see that there's a separate thing. You can know the difference without separating it. So I'd say get all the musicians right together to boycott something which is in the way of progress, and be very, very effective boycott

00:34:17.580 - 00:34:35.420

recording companies or whatever they're going to boycott composers guild. I think it's effective in a degree. It's not effective anymore because it fell apart. Yeah. I mean, just if you got a guild to

00:34:35.420 - 00:34:50.320

go and you say, well, we have a proposal bill, and then it comes out on the newspaper printing. I think that's as effective as it's going to be, that people will know about it. You get some attention. You get someone to turn their head and look at the

00:34:50.320 - 00:35:04.200

headline. I think this, yeah, I think the idea here was, again, to organize the musicians, both to be a white and colored. And to deal with the problems that all the musicians have in common,

00:35:04.200 - 00:35:22.520

like the clubs the recording industry, yeah, so I don't think it was just a form of guilt. There was to form a guild that would do something, yeah, what it what it did was to get some attention, where people

00:35:22.520 - 00:35:44.440

who are not really going to support jazz, they're not going to support jazz as well as they support baseball, Wrigley's Spearmint, doing them. They're not going to support a guild, and I think the guild, they were trying to get a self sufficient

00:35:44.440 - 00:36:00.340

thing, right, Maureen, but anything in this 1960s it's like a river. I got this phrase, Mark lady, a river with no inlet and no outlet becomes stagnan, and

00:36:00.340 - 00:36:20.120

everything is poisoned, everything living in it dies, it needs support from outside, as well As from in, especially in 1966 really need support. You. On.

00:36:22.940 - 00:36:37.220

Do some of the younger musicians who are playing this so called new music, look to Asia and Africa for a musical inspiration? Yes, why do you think this is so? Do you think there are any political or social reasons for it?

00:36:39.200 - 00:36:47.800

No, I just think that the cultural the cultural reason, this is the main reason. What is What do you mean by the cultural reason?

00:36:51.820 - 00:37:13.140

Well, I know, I know that some musicians, when they start delving into Indian music, Eastern i Our Middle Eastern music, Indian Middle Eastern, all that Asiatic. They usually go a little further than the music. They go right into how

00:37:13.860 - 00:37:37.580

people think, culturally, meaning, they're impressed with how long it takes an Indian musician to study his instrument and play it and all that religiously. And they're impressed with the patience and fortitude and all that musician

00:37:37.580 - 00:37:54.280

Hans. They're usually impressed with that, and they try to get the same thing going, like a discipline that John Coltrane had, very impressed with, that if they get the nose train a little better, they know that he has a lot of discipline, and the

00:37:54.280 - 00:38:06.300

discipline that Johannes has, what do you what do you think has stimulated this interest in Africa and Asia now, as compared to, say, 20 years ago, when there was very little of it.

00:38:08.820 - 00:38:30.800

Well, one thing 20 years ago, 20 years ago, well, 15 years ago. The only thing we learned about Africa, and chief export, the chief

00:38:32.900 - 00:38:57.100

import, the main regions, and the fact that, in so many words, without saying that they were uncivilized. Some teachers actually told us it was uncivilized savages without any apparent hope of any progressive growth. So when we

00:38:57.100 - 00:39:16.140

got out of school, what we learned in the book was was nil. When the book was closed, was even more nil. Same thing with Japan. I didn't learn too much about Japan. I think I learned more about Turkey,

00:39:16.200 - 00:39:31.640

Greece, a little bit, but due to the fact that Turkey was an empire at one time, but again, that white supremacy seemed to be operating at your level of education to prevent you from getting the idea that

00:39:31.700 - 00:39:41.320

there were other civilizations that have never done anything noteworthy. Yes, that's why we have a lot of trustees seated in the United States today. Because we were taught through a system of

00:39:41.320 - 00:40:02.940

prestige. We were talking about the powers, the great powers, which means the European powers, yes, and any power that we they couldn't overlook Egyptian Turkey, Hans. We. We are aware that China was, at one time, one

00:40:02.940 - 00:40:26.840

of the greatest in history, back in history, that's all we were told about, the Great Wall and macaroni. Actually, it. But in the 50s, people began to learn differently when the

00:40:26.840 - 00:40:43.240

African nations became independent. I'm just beginning to find out something about the Aborigines, a little bit about new Kenneth. Thank God for Mondo Connie. That's for certain. It

00:40:47.260 - 00:41:04.500

seems to me as a listener, that group improvisation has become more important in the last 10 or 15 years. Do you agree that this is a tendency, and if it is, what do you think is causing it? Improvisation, yeah,

00:41:12.240 - 00:41:37.820

well, I know Lee Connor Marsh, they were doing that a long, long time ago, long, long time to do a lot of young music, and I heard a lot of it. And it's funny, you should mention that because Lee Connor was at the club last night, told me

00:41:37.820 - 00:41:51.040

miles asked him to sit in Henze. Miles asked him to sit in, and he asked. The first thing he asked me was, do we do any group improvisational things? Because he heard some of it going on a little bit while

00:41:51.040 - 00:42:13.320

we were playing, especially between the piano and the horse and the Hans. And I said, Yes, we do it. Especially when we play the theme song. We do it because he didn't want to just come up play, you know, solo, everybody take turns. Same thing

00:42:15.120 - 00:42:34.880

out, yeah. So we do it a lot. Usually when we play as a quartet without miles, we do a hell of a lot, but we don't tend to overdo it, a thing like that. I think it's happening, it's happening, but people don't want to overdo it, because it's still

00:42:37.160 - 00:42:51.940

like traffic Tokyo. Everyone's getting out of everybody else's way, but we got to get to that point where no accidents. Why do you think it's catching on much more now than it was in the days when Conan and Marsh were doing it?

00:42:56.620 - 00:43:27.080

I think jazz wise, the growth of jazz and the growth of people's listening ability and musicians themselves, the way they listen to each other. Lot of musicians from the beginning to stages of jazz, a lot of musicians tend to to listen to single lines, or

00:43:27.080 - 00:43:43.480

maybe two lines, two instruments at a time, or one at a time, but very few can hear, I'd say, a five piece Beatrice, and listen to the whole thing. That's an art. And I think Miles has that. That's why he's always been able to have a good group, because he

00:43:43.480 - 00:44:01.020

listened to the whole thing. He listened to the basement, all the great bass drama, what they're doing together simultaneously. That's why he knows what he wants in a way of personnel and from musician to play, listening to everything at

00:44:01.020 - 00:44:14.640

once. Then was almost, I wouldn't say, impossible, but they weren't ready for it, because they were mainly concerned with themselves. They listened to their own lines, very subtle.

00:44:14.640 - 00:44:32.900

Henze, that was kind of the star complex music. Everybody had to be a star. Had to be a big individual, yeah, and talking about Vietnam and the wars in general, we had our little wars and music, but thank God we didn't have bullets

00:44:32.900 - 00:44:45.220

for might be some dead musicians. Bullets for sound, place of sound. But we had to grow, and I think

00:44:48.640 - 00:45:15.120

like back in the days of Monteverdi, to write free and strict counterpoint entrepreneur Lee and all that. I. Improv, improvisation, improvisation by single person. I know bacalao, but they never actually got eight guys together in Heaven's

00:45:15.120 - 00:45:35.960

All right, go for yourself. Just stay in the key of B minor. So improvisation was true then as it is now, but singularly usually now. I think the time has gone all kinds of things out, 567, maybe eight men,

00:45:41.360 - 00:45:58.720

improvising, but they have to be of such stature musically that they can catch so many nuances and things and stay off. Don't step on anyone's toe. Too hard if you step on someone's toe, make it. Make it. Make something out of it. Create something out

00:45:59.740 - 00:46:14.460

of it. I heard about the definition of an artist. A person who creates things out of confusion. So you can't be too petty either when you play in this group manner. You can't you can't be solely concerned with yourself.

00:46:14.460 - 00:46:27.020

You have to be concerned with what the other people are doing and injuring them. That's right, if you hear something, this is what we do. Like when I hear Herbie do something, we go into this all together,

00:46:27.320 - 00:46:42.940

improvisational grouping. I might hear him play one note. I'm playing something. I'm going along. He might play one note. One Note cuts right through whatever I'm doing. I'll stop. It's hard to describe it. It's like moving over to the side to

00:46:42.940 - 00:46:58.900

let that note come through, then push what he's doing. Push what he's doing for 10 seconds, maybe, but you're not counting. He'll catch on to the fact that I'm pushing what he's doing, and then he'll get behind me with another phrase and push what I'm

00:46:58.900 - 00:47:09.240

doing. It's like pushing everything lower than momentum. In other words, that's a woman getting this thing up off the ground. You know, getting this music up off the ground. This is another thing that I've noticed, that the role of the

00:47:09.240 - 00:47:24.980

piano in the music is changing. Many people are doing without a piano, whereas when the piano is included, it's being given a different kind of role. It doesn't just sit there and play chords anymore, but sometimes it lays out when the horns are so

00:47:24.980 - 00:47:40.180

long soloing, like Johannes John does, occasionally, sometimes it'll be a dialog, or even more voices than just a dialog between the piano and the other horn, but it won't be a supporting role. This is an accurate observation. Do you

00:47:40.180 - 00:48:01.240

think, yes, the piano is changing. The role of the pianist is changing, and they are doing it themselves, like the bass players, they're doing it. Drummers, a few of them are doing it. I'm trying to

00:48:01.240 - 00:48:22.880

stay away from names to name, to put a person's name in conjunction with something that is being done for the first time. But it's changing. You have dialogs going on between the drummer and bass, drum and the bass. But to do this, as you

00:48:22.880 - 00:48:54.520

said again, just can't sit there and play. Some writers have charged up this new music lacks form, lacks structure, is chaotic. What do you think about those ideas? Some of it does lack form and it's chaotic. It lacks

00:48:57.520 - 00:49:19.920

form as we know it, and it lacks structure, as we know up to now, and it seems to be chaotic. I guess you can say the chaotic element is the structure in the form right now. In other words, the form is changing. Yes, I think out of chaos, something

00:49:19.920 - 00:49:34.040

will happen, or something is happening and it will it will come to the surface so that those who see on the surface can see, why do you think there is so much hostility to the to the new

00:49:34.040 - 00:49:54.700

music? Now, if you would agree that there is hostility, well, I same old thing about a new idea. Well, you can say, well, is this a new idea? Is there an idea there? Or is it something new, or is it something that's just changing,

00:49:54.700 - 00:50:12.420

or something that's already been done before, and all that. I just think. Some people resent the idea of someone trying to do something new, like I said, you can't. It's impossible to do anything new. There's nothing new under the sun. Maybe they

00:50:12.420 - 00:50:25.280

have some emotional stake in the status quo too. Maybe this is what they understand, and they are resentful towards anything that they don't understand, and threatens to leave them behind, maybe even take away their job.

00:50:27.980 - 00:50:44.260

It could be, I guess, that could be a part of it, especially if someone is going to think of a way to make a whole lot of money on the new thing, and it may jeopardize the old thing well may jeopardize people who write about the old thing.

00:50:44.260 - 00:50:54.460

That's the thing. I mean, if you're a writer and you learn how to pick out I got rid of my piano, yeah, after five years now, now people threaten to throw away I got rhythm. How are you going to react? What are you going to do then,

00:50:54.580 - 00:51:08.880

yeah, you try to keep I got rhythm alive. I'd like to ask you a question about miles group which you don't have to answer, because just don't have to answer if you don't want him. I'm curious to know whether Miles is deliberately hiring

00:51:08.880 - 00:51:29.240

some of the older musicians to try and keep abreast of these new developments and how he looks on them. If you've ever talked about it with him. No, I think miles knows who he hires. He hires because of

00:51:29.300 - 00:52:01.080

musical reasons. He sees. I guess this may be a compliment like say Tony Williams. I don't compliment myself, but he saw you still see a musical volcano, a loud volcano within Johnny William's soul. I guess

00:52:01.080 - 00:52:17.400

he can see the same thing in anyone, anyone he's hired. In fact, everyone he's hired, you know, like been, I don't say that they all turned out about their own group. That's not necessarily the measure of the worth or the value of a man.

00:52:17.580 - 00:52:38.660

Fact that they can go out and get their own group. But they've all contributed something to to the music that they played together with miles, and they've all been strong in their convictions, and they've been able to project, I don't say,

00:52:40.100 - 00:52:54.160

communicate, every time they hit the bandstand, but the projection was there. You couldn't miss it. You couldn't miss Wynton Kelly. You couldn't miss Coltrane and cannonball. You couldn't

00:52:55.300 - 00:53:12.600

Billy Joe Jones. Sometimes, when it came time to take the solo, you knew who it was. I have four quick questions that I ask everybody, where you were born, and where you were raised, and how old you are.

00:53:13.560 - 00:53:25.880

I was born in New York, New Jersey. You raised there, and I'm 33 now. And the fourth question is, what kind of educational background do you have?

00:53:27.500 - 00:53:48.700

Well, grammar school, high school, college. Where did you go to college? NYU, New York University. Did you major in music? There? Music Education. I speaking of education, do you think that artists have a responsibility to

00:53:48.760 - 00:54:06.240

educate their audience beyond the boundaries of their art alone? I don't. I don't think they should be concerned overly concerned with educating the audience. That's going to happen

00:54:06.240 - 00:54:25.820

anyway, as soon as the first note is played, because I believe in life as a whole, as a hell of an education period. Is there anything that you'd like to add to my list of prepared questions?

00:54:27.740 - 00:54:52.000

Well, no, I won't be adding anything. I'll just be reiterating. But to reiterate, yes, I like to say that you we, we meaning those who want to contribute something up here,

00:54:53.860 - 00:55:26.240

we have to keep our eyes, open minds, open ears and. And be aware of as much as possible, because the world is getting so accessible we have access to the other side of the globe.

00:55:26.240 - 00:55:48.760

In fact, we have access we're even right over there and right we just, we just can't live in a vacuum, like I heard it crazy. You can't create in a vacuum. I guess you can do something in a vacuum,

00:55:51.340 - 00:56:13.440

but why go through that? That necessary? I think it's necessary to grow because everything else is some writers think that you can play in a vacuum. They say that all the musicians want to talk, want to talk about is the music.

00:56:13.440 - 00:56:27.740

And when anybody brings up anything else, they just say, I'll play the music. Man. Right? Was like that. But I don't think there are very many musicians like that anymore, especially among younger

00:56:27.740 - 00:56:43.840

musicians who are much more conscious. You've seen much more of the world, right? And constantly their music is gonna they're gonna have access to many more avenues of musical thought. Not that

00:56:43.840 - 00:57:02.700

they're not that they'll be playing. When they're playing, they're thinking of Paris or playing to think of Germany, Russia, if they've been there, they're thinking of that, I think, the impact of the world and your reflections on the

00:57:02.700 - 00:57:23.360

universe in general, the imagination. The broader than that, the imagination, I think the more you're able to the more room you have to move around. And if you can picture that room in your music or your hours, you can picture it and project it on

00:57:23.360 - 00:57:38.600

a sort of a mental screen for your audience. You're talking about a number of musicians see the music as a way of helping to change the society, in fact, helping to change the world.

00:57:40.160 - 00:57:55.480

Would you agree with that? Is there some some truth to that idea? Well, it must be some truth to it. If Hitler didn't want certain musical pieces played during the war, he was trying to

00:57:55.480 - 00:58:11.640

change the world one way. Yeah. And I guess he thought the music would get in his way all the music would change, what he was trying to change. So he was looking at music as a nationalistic thing. Sort of

00:58:12.480 - 00:58:24.920

hold the people together, I guess people of a certain nation. I guess that happened to be thinking nationalistically, but as a one nation, I mean, but

00:58:27.080 - 00:58:44.140

internationalistically or humanistically, humanistically, music can serve the same purpose, changing everything at the same time, holding people together, mentally, keeping the Santa change

00:58:50.440 - 00:58:59.440

my life. Let's see where I can't change other people's change my life. Okay, I'll let you off the hook. Okay. Do.