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Unknown: Testing, testing, testing. What was I was? Oh, you were, I didn't know that well. It was on a program that nobody would think Jad musicians alone, that they never had any jazz musicians long before, and they

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never played any records on that program before they did last night. What was it? Well, the mobilization for you. Oh, yeah, we played for that

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about two Santa, and he was on that. So he wanted some musicians on Dave Harrison, Lamont Johnson, three of us were on that music ride. Then they played some of our records, and we were discussing some things about feeling, other things,

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what kind of music we were playing, as to whether we'd found ourselves, and things like that. Let me try and explain what I'm doing here. I have some questions to ask, and you may think that the questions are

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stupid. Some of them are stupid, but I think it's necessary to ask them, because many cases, the listeners are very far removed from the musicians, and therefore aren't familiar with the way the musicians think, and therefore can't necessarily

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understand the music, right? So if I ask questions that seem to you obvious, I'm not doing it to try and make fun of you or anything, because I think that these are important things that haven't been brought out enough.

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Well, let me get my pencil. Everything I do is done equation wise. Interview with Sun Ra New York City, nine, August, 1966 first question I want to ask you is this, do you think the phrase

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new black music is an accurate description of some of the music that we're hearing now, for the first time, relatively well, it's according to what they mean by black. I don't think they've really defined it yet, but in my case, I would say

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it's true, because I'm dealing with space community, and space is more black than is anything else. So when I said black, I preferably mean the void, the black void, which moves over to something else.

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Well, what about in racial terms? Do you think that that's an accurate phrase? Well, if you talking about race, when I speak of race, I'm talking about r a y s, so I would say it would be yes, black

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race, like that, like I'm a black race, r a y s, because I feel that every person is some particular rays, and it's a column to the degree of what they are, they branch over into that where, in a sense, it wouldn't be a matter of color.

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They might build a black rays, because they, their minds and vibrational contexts, are the bodies move toward that way the black rays like you got, like in any spectrum, you got all kind of colors. That's where people they come out to be. In other

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words, that vibrations would measure up to be black rays, white rays, green rays. And some people call it the aura you see, but it's the same thing. It's rays that way. You were talking about principles A while ago, I wonder

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if you see this music as having any political or social implications. Well, some as far as the other musicians are concerned, I'm not sure about them, because they say one thing, and I see them

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doing other things just for yourself. So it's not so you say political or social, what I would say is mine moves over into politics and religion and philosophy and everything that concerns humanity and non humanity, because I'm dealing

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with infinity, which a lot of people haven't they don't realize that yet, because they haven't had enough of what we're doing is, I'm dealing on a lot of different dimensions, and the public hasn't heard these dimensions. And if I really

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express it, they would think it's ego or something. But we have a lot of LPs out that they're not on the Marcus just they put out just what select group of people from Chicago. Public hasn't heard them yet. A lot of people are riding in from

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European countries, and they're getting over into what you might call inner circle, outer circle, because they send them when they ask for them, they have them put out on the market in this country. Do you see that your music, or music of the some

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of the other people we were talking about before, like Marion brown or Pharaoh Saunders. Do you think this is having any particular relation to the negro community in particular?

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Well, the Negro community, according to my mathematics, there's no such thing as a negro. So I'm not one, and some people might. Be, I think it's according to, like, your raise again, to me, the word Negro, which is ancient Egyptian word,

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means dead bodies. I'm not, I'm most certainly not a dead body. I think that I know that words you can jump over into words, like if you call yourself a cop. So I've been named John cops. Now people would automatically shy away from it might be a very

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nice person, but just the word cops is bad, and the word Negro used to be necro. Coming to mathematics, I'm dealing a c is equal to a G, like in Hebrew language, third letter is a G and over in all the ancient language, the third letters of G

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only in this language, the third letters of C. So you see they they fit in together, while C is equal to a G. And if you certainly grow, you'd have to stop, and it's a knee grow to get your G out. So when people say necro, they're not saying ne

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grow. They say ne crow. You can say necro. It sounds like Negro, so it still means dead body. And what word would you prefer for myself? Well, my rays move toward Ancient Egypt. That's what I know. Ancient Egypt raised. My spirit is of that

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same of the same rays, I would say, Well, I saw people might be what they call Christian Muslim, their rays move over there, but memories move over to what they call wisdom religions. But I don't like the word religion, but it moves over into things

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dealing with cosmic things and infinity. That's why my vans are solar, because that's the way I feel. Well, leaving aside the word Negro, then, which you think is erroneous. Is there any particular group of people in

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this country or in the world who you feel are particularly closely related to your music? Yes, all the people who rejects and who are no place in society, because you can't really have a staple

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society, really safe society, unless it includes everybody. And there are a lot of people that in what you might call a so called Negro race, of the black race is not even included in and not even recognized by black people, not even recognized by

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Negroes. In fact, I saw two on the corner just now, a little boy about nine years old, a little girl about eight, and he had a shoe shine box. And both of them were black, and they were sitting out there. And Weldon, right on 42nd street,

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part of the business district, got to sell about Third Avenue, and he had a shoe shot and boxed, and he wasn't even asking about it. Could he shine a shoe? He was singing, and this little girl was singing. I stood up there, and I watched him 30

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minutes. Finally, he disappeared somewhere. Little girl was sitting on on the chair with her head down, still singing. People. She got on her knees, still singing. Now she was singing about 30 minutes. I was watching that. And yet none of

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the people of Negroes or black people said anything. They weren't concerned. A lot of Beatrice white people, they stopped and looked they were a little amazed at these children were out there by themselves, actually rejects neglected in a

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society like this. So this is what I'm looking at, that I couldn't even consider myself. In fact, I'd be ashamed to just be fully a member of a society that would even let one person just be neglected, because you can't really do that, not if you

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really got a heart or really concerned about humanity, which I am. I don't like to be but it's just my nature to be concerned. I wouldn't like to be concerned unless I could do something about it. So that's why I never really just jumped

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on organization or anything. But nevertheless, when it's your nature to do so be a part of certain things. You can't help that. So eventually I build some kind of humanitarian effort to super humanitarian, to catch all these people that the negro

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leaders haven't done anything about and that the white leaders haven't done anything about. Neither the white churches, neither black churches, and neither the Humane Society. With all these organizations, I think they should be watching for

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that. But children are being neglected, and if they were doing something wrong, everybody would see that. But here they are, without anybody to hold on to, anything to operate around, and they are potential criminals. In a sense, you would

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say, if nobody stops them because they don't know right from wrong. It was just to have a children saying, now they could have been I waited this boy disappeared, and I waited on him to come back and look like he knew I was gonna says. I was

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gonna ask him best parents went on, but he never came back. But I'm going back down lamb. I'm gonna ask him some questions. Of course, I'm gonna see our parents and see why they got him out there like that because I'm interested in a sense, it's my

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business, but another sense, it is because they grew up to rob me or somebody else. You mentioned negro leaders, and I wanted to ask you this whether you thought there was any significance in the fact that

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Malcolm X was a lover of jazz and a close friend of Ms. Jazz musicians that was just an accident. Or do you see that there's something deeper there? He came up in an area where everything his life moved around

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with those certain type of jazz musicians. He never got around to my type of dad, because I went out there one time personally and asked him why that I never was booked into any bazaars or anything. And I told him what my music was about and

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about the space age. I told him I didn't think was right for leaders to have a whole race of black people, negros, to not even know if they had a space age. And so he said, Well, they weren't ready for it yet, so I told him what they would be

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ready. Somebody dropped a bomb on him, so I didn't see how he could say that they weren't ready. And he never didn't get a chance to do anything about it. But he might have, I don't know, but he hadn't really listened to the new music, just to other

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people he was familiar with that he grew up with. Do you find any connection between his ideas and the new music? Well, not at all, because most of the the new music musicians,

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I would say they're atheists, but they don't think of God in the terms that maybe the other musicians did. They don't think, I would say, in my estimation, most of the jazz that we have known up to this point has been based on love. And I would say

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the new music, which isn't really talking about love at all, it's talking about what's really happening in the world. Sometimes things in the world happen are very ugly, but the other jazz musicians, they were creating beautiful pictures, I

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suppose, to entertain people and to get their mind but these other musicians are playing what they see and what they hear around them every day you see, and I'm playing I'm playing infinity.

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Do you see that you say that some of the new music is harsh because it mirrors what's happening? Don't you think that this could also be said of Malcolm, that he mirrored what was happening too. He

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didn't mirror what all the people because he didn't include me. You see, like I went there and I said, Well, what about me? I'm talking about the space age. You don't have a single black person talking about it. Now, his philosophy wasn't big enough

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to consider that. He had to reject that because he was thinking more of Earth things. And yet we're not in an earth age anymore, even governments are endeavoring to get after her. So we've left the earth stage.

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Other than that. Do you see any could you agree with most of the things that Malcolm said? Or would you ever consider, for example, dedicating a composition to him? No, I wouldn't, because he didn't accept me. So why should

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I accept them? But what about believing aside Malcolm, the man? What about the ideas that he stood for? That's the ideas that he stood for. I went to him quite often, and he was quite

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correct, and everything was saying he was telling the truth. That's really people liked him, but they didn't. They let him get killed. So I wouldn't like to be liked by people who wouldn't protect me. They evidently wasn't really sincere.

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Else they would have considered him as precious, and they would have protected him. But as far as a leader for a particular set of people, I would say he's the best leader to come along, but he's beginning to change his ideas. And some of these people

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that were flying him all at once, they turned they didn't like what he was saying. He knew things what he was saying, but he was telling the truth, and so is Mohammed. Saw a lot of black leader, Leroy Jones, all I'm telling the truth, but the

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question is whether the truth can do anything five times You mean right in according to my mathematics, it won't be the truth that will make the world a better place to live in. And this is something different from what they're talking about. All

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the negro leaders are talking about the positive thing, and they're talking about the truth. I'm not talking about that. I agree that what they're saying is true. A lot of things they're saying about white people, if they're bad, they're true, you

00:14:13.740 - 00:14:25.040

see, but they don't say too much about what black people are doing that are bad. That's why we mostly disagreed. The first thing I do, I talk about all the bad things they do, which I usually do that's really far less and come around lately,

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because I always tell them their faults, and they don't like to hear that. Like to talk about other people's faults. But as I said, I'm not really a member of any organization, because I wouldn't fit in that. Because the first thing I tell them the

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things they doing wrong, organizations don't like to hear that they have it based on what others are doing wrong and everything, if you bring anything else in that see, it disturbs their equilibrium. So I don't want to do that

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you mentioned having these conversations with Farrell, do musicians, especially the newer musicians, do? They often talk about social and political things. Do? Well, like Malcolm's ideas,

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they did when Malcolm was living, but they don't say too much about it. Now, you think of another leader of that stature came along who was as dynamic as Malcolm. Do you think they would begin talking about

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those issues again? Not again. You see things like that only come around just once in an age, and he's the perfect man for a particular thing. If the people had been ready. It's just like some forces they sent

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people be crying about they need a leader. They'll send them one. Now, if they don't accept that leader, they take him away. Well, it looks to me, as a man like Stokely Carmichael has picked up on some of the things that Malcolm was saying, and now

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people are much readier to hear this than they were even say two years ago. Well, do you think that this would start these discussions over again among musicians? Well, one musician, I was talking to him, and he said he

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went to school for Stroud and Marin Brown, he said he was going to see what he talking about. He didn't know what he's talking about. So in the case of where they seem to know what Morton was talking about, because he was always talking

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about the things they had been degraded with, he's talking about those things. And everybody understood that because they had suffered, or they knew somebody was suffering and they were being deprived, and he was talking about that.

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But when you talk about other things that haven't been proven otherwise, the things that people deprived of that particular situation was positive, it had been proven to be true. But when you talk about Black Power and other things.

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That means that has to be something that have to be proven as to whether people really interested. A lot of people don't look power. They'd rather be parasites. Can you think of anybody you would dedicate a composition to?

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Composition to? Well, I would dedicate it to whatever God said, any person in recent history, any person right now, I'm just like God. I have no respect of person until they prove something they

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disappointed me so bitterly, until I'm taking a new look of humanity. But I suppose there are some people I just can't think of it right now. Maybe Cecil Tara, when this music is called the new black music, does that mean

00:17:41.320 - 00:17:57.340

that whites cannot play the music? Well, yeah, I would say that they really can't play it. Because why? I don't think that black people can really play hillbilly music. I don't think they really can play Scotch

00:17:57.340 - 00:18:10.140

music, and it's a lot of different father music. I don't think they really play. They might play at it, but they have in school and the traditional things, like very few black people really play classical music the way white people can

00:18:10.140 - 00:18:24.080

play it. So I would say that they couldn't really play it because they're not black, that black people would have had some experience that they could put into that music, that the white person can put it in there. So that would be perfectly logical.

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Just like no two painters really paint a lot. Why should they expect white people to pull out black people? In fact, they've been doing it too much anyway. What I would like to see is that they do something with what they got, right? Because it's not a

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matter of predator separate. It's a matter we living in that kind of age, not such a big infinity until they don't really have to do it at one time they might have. But every everybody is open now for anything that anybody does. So they got a free

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field to come up with electronics. The main thing is whether they have it. You see, whether that minds, they have to do a lot of sacrifice. And you see, a lot of white musicians don't have to do that. That would be one thing. I'd say that

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they don't have as much strength as most black leaders thought they had to suffer. What about in a case like, I'm not trying to trap you anything here. What about in the case like Tara's? Well, Rud playing with Archie

00:19:18.000 - 00:19:28.100

Shep? Would you? Would you think that overall, this group is playing the new black music, even though writers in it, or would you say, somehow means that they're playing something else.

00:19:28.400 - 00:19:44.320

Yeah, you know, instead of the shepherd's black, although he say is, or he indicates it actually has, most of his friends are right, and he's been to a school that he was taught by white teachers, and the things what they could teach

00:19:44.320 - 00:19:57.220

him, it had to be white. Now he might because of some things unpleasant haven't happened to him, because he's black, because he's married to white wife, and he might be he can't go everywhere with her, or something like that. Even New

00:19:57.220 - 00:20:10.500

York, he might be feeling that, but it would be. Antagonism against both races, really, but the race he would be attacked would be the white one, because he wouldn't that attack the black one, because they too vicious on some things, they'd

00:20:10.500 - 00:20:23.840

be the vicious of the truth. You know, Malcolm X is first girlfriend was a white it isn't unusual for black nationalists to not begin as black nationalists, but to begin with something else.

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First, we don't really think they're black. Nixon, they might be angry with the white race about something in my Kees, I've never had to be angry with them about anything. For that's I went up and told Dodie what he said. I was paranoid about white

00:20:34.880 - 00:20:47.740

people. I told I came on the planet free. I've always been free. And I don't know what they mean when they say, ask people, white people, for freedom. I don't know what they mean when they say, ask them for anything, because I never had to do that.

00:20:47.800 - 00:21:05.460

I never was taught that. And yet I came to this planet in America, so I'm different from the average black person. Actually different, because I was real in the south, but I never knew what it was not to feel myself myself, because my

00:21:05.580 - 00:21:17.460

relatives kept me completely protected from everybody. In fact, I just completely enclosed. I know nothing about prejudice. I was read in the midst of I really didn't know until I was about 15 or something that there was such

00:21:17.460 - 00:21:30.440

things as differences, and even then, it didn't touch me because I hadn't been read that way, and that's very important. Most like children are real to think certain things, and they get certain artists in their mind. I never, I never had that. So

00:21:30.440 - 00:21:47.440

therefore, when I approach a white bird, it's not with any kind of attitudes and other other Negroes or something like, I say, Bruce Johnson that wrote that article. He doesn't even understand. Yeah, he doesn't understand. One time he was in a

00:21:47.440 - 00:21:59.440

very depressed stage. In fact, Patrick said, Well, I want you to meet somebody that needs help. So I went over and talked to him. He was good against the white race. Then I talked to him, and he was able to get out, I think he's went to Harvard or

00:21:59.440 - 00:22:13.860

Yale or somewhere. So his intellect was getting him down. He mentioned, I said he was intelligent negro. That's what I meant, something bad when I said it. But anyway, he this helped him. At that time, I was paid. I remember Brahms sheets of on

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research, what did, what black people's real history was, where they came from, what they had to do while they were in the condition and I gave it, but didn't tell the Negro. Of course, he didn't read it because he thought he knew

00:22:25.580 - 00:22:41.620

everything. But anyway, he overlooked all of that. He was looking at the aspect. He kept saying I was playing too far out. So I realized that I had to really fight against Negroes who would hold me to the status quo of a certain type of music, and

00:22:41.620 - 00:22:55.720

really being free, I didn't know nothing about them holding me back, either, I don't know nothing about either white or black holding me back. So therefore I, I kept on pushing. He became to be a booking agent. Promoted so fast around. He

00:22:55.720 - 00:23:09.000

promoted everybody but me. So finally, pet, so why don't you give us? He said he's playing too far for other people. So festival, how do you know he's playing too far? He came to you, to talk to you, to help you when you did in a depressed mood and

00:23:09.000 - 00:23:23.600

all that. So every time so far, step on failing. He didn't make any money. Finally, he'd given out of money. Here, some money. He finally decided to book us, and at least he decided he would take a chance, you see, but he'd brought so many things in. Now,

00:23:23.600 - 00:23:36.500

of the other thing that he didn't Henze, it was too late. He'd run out of money, you see, but that's what he did. Now, one time he, I mean, he was a bit antagonist, put out playing something different. Now, one time we went to City College

00:23:36.500 - 00:23:54.880

Planning outlet. He was the MC in in Chicago, and so he had several groups that he had brought there. Weldon, how we got on the probe, since he's MC, but he wasn't even on the balls by listening octopus, that large band, and we struck out on his

00:23:54.880 - 00:24:07.260

first number, and the students in the middle of number, they jumped up in their seats to start cheering. He had to look behind the way mine the courtesy what they were doing, and he still didn't wake up behind that. But that very seldom

00:24:07.260 - 00:24:21.740

happens in the college you know, they liked what we were doing. Chicago too, a pretty tough city, but he still didn't wake up. He just, like in that article, he really expressed antagonism against everything that's new, and he just

00:24:21.740 - 00:24:36.200

considered so that I was a spill here, though, because I was in Chicago. So he attacked me. He attacked it all musicians, black or white, that was doing anything different, because he's that type. He's status quo. You've got a lot of black

00:24:36.200 - 00:24:43.600

people. You probably might have more of them like that than you have white people. Would you call him what he Franklin Frazier called him black bourgeoisie.

00:24:45.940 - 00:25:03.540

He's not even that. He's not even that because I got a friend in Chicago who's one, and he's very staid, but he he knows enough to know that I'm doing something that's important to move the stigma out of. Of being just some dishonorable just

00:25:03.540 - 00:25:17.400

because you're black or whatever you might be. He knows I'm doing that. In fact, he wrote a letter about people. They didn't publish it because he talked so bad about Negro stew, inflammatory, but they got some letters in there. No two more

00:25:17.400 - 00:25:31.280

letters about but it's not over with yet. Eventually, when I see the editor, I'm going to explain to the public exactly what I think, because I went up there and told them, I said, you don't have to ask anybody what I think I will tell you, because I don't

00:25:31.280 - 00:25:45.100

have anything to hide. Maybe they'll get some idea from this. You talked about the audience talking about Brooks Johnson, and I wanted to ask you this whether, over the years, you've noticed any kind of

00:25:45.100 - 00:25:54.760

consistent difference between a black audience and a white audience, as to how they react to their music. Is there any, is there a difference, and which kind of do you have a preference for one kind of audience

00:25:56.080 - 00:26:09.180

or another? Well, actually, when we playing, I actually don't see the audience. They all react the same, because I'm going by the vibrations that a lot of places we play well, we go into strictly black neighborhoods where some black people don't

00:26:09.180 - 00:26:23.180

like white people and and some white people in New York go there and Weldon, they go there just as boldly. They've done that in at least about 50 places. They'll be right to every concert, they be constantly called me up when we

00:26:23.180 - 00:26:35.540

gonna play, and okay, where it is, they'll be right there. So it really be impossible to play a black audience anymore, because I got too many white fans, and they're gonna be there. Some of them are from Europe, and they just called me

00:26:35.600 - 00:26:49.000

up. Quite a regular man, where we play, what am I doing? And they interested in what I'm doing. They don't care what people write about me. They know how I really feel. They're going by vibrations too, because they're sincere. You can't fool

00:26:49.000 - 00:26:57.760

sincere persons. Do you think that European Whites are more ready to understand what you're doing than American whites? American whites never hurt me because the fact

00:26:57.760 - 00:27:12.300

that the club owners have seen that, and the people who run into jab business, they never really booked me where a lot of American whites were. They never, even, for that matter, they haven't booked me where any American blacks. Few places we

00:27:12.300 - 00:27:26.060

played, like Hans socks. I played up in Leroy Jones's place. That's one thing he mentioned. I went up there to Leroy Jones play because he was perfectly right. Black Arts? Yeah, one reason, one thing I feel is wrong in America is

00:27:26.060 - 00:27:38.660

this, black people don't have any beauty to Avenue around. And I said, before we got that place, that they really needed something like that in order to stabilize them and make them feel like they really were worthwhile. Because everybody

00:27:38.660 - 00:27:50.800

else got one Chinese, just put up a theater, down, beautiful theater, and they still part of America, but nevertheless, they got that theater because there are some things that happen in the black race, Negro race, it doesn't, it doesn't happen to

00:27:50.800 - 00:28:02.760

white people. Now, if they ever feel around, they could put that, portray that, but to a white person, if you showed up in there, he wouldn't see that. He might not even think it was funny to a black person might take something tragic and it's

00:28:02.760 - 00:28:13.500

funny to them because it's so bad, and they put over in the place. And quite often, you might find a black person theater. They might laugh at a place where white people wouldn't even laugh because they don't think that's funny. So you

00:28:13.500 - 00:28:26.240

got different kind of brands of human I do think that black people need a theater where they can have some characters up their way, can laugh at themselves. They've gotten too serious. I see quite often white comedians portraying the comic

00:28:26.240 - 00:28:45.340

side of white people and the ridiculous side of them and and yet, when Black comedians were and Negro comedians on TV and radio, the this so called righteous Negroes, got them off there. Why? Because they didn't want to be laughed at. Now,

00:28:45.400 - 00:28:58.360

that's a bad sign for a nation, but all the rest of nations do, I see the French. They have some things that really be just talking about the French. And they even had a picture, I think, of men on flying machine. They spoke fun to Germans, and

00:28:58.360 - 00:29:09.300

they do that, and they can laugh. So why can't Negroes have some be laughed at? I think it's a good sign when a person have a sense of new one, because sometimes they might crack up if they don't have it. That's one of the things with me. They need

00:29:09.300 - 00:29:19.260

a theater where they can laugh at themselves and see how ridiculous they are, because they are ridiculous. Maybe it's just a certain class of Negroes who can't laugh at themselves, the ones who are more concerned with

00:29:19.260 - 00:29:33.800

getting ahead in white society maybe. Well, they need to show that too, so they can see. That's what I like. Leroy Jones, I would say he he got in the head and white society, but he had another side of him. He's trying

00:29:33.800 - 00:29:46.600

to broaden his mind. He really made it. But then he's got the kind of mind as be trying to progress. And he knew he couldn't progress no further there. He could only write plays like well, the plays that made him, which was really seemingly

00:29:46.600 - 00:30:02.160

ridiculing white people, ridiculing blackness too, it was showing the scenery side of both of them. And he didn't want to continue writing plays like that. Now he got a play called Black Mass. Yes, I read that. Well, what? When you see it in

00:30:02.160 - 00:30:14.520

person, it's really something else. It's just some person that I told him, if I might work in my pencil, go through and rub out some things in there, and then it would be really a classic place. I talk about him too, see, but I don't agree with

00:30:14.520 - 00:30:25.760

him, but it's just a matter that I appreciate all Odyssey. You don't agree with him 100% you do agree with something? Well, I agree he's telling the truth, but I'm not. I just said that. I don't think

00:30:25.760 - 00:30:38.060

the truth is gonna do it. I'm talking about that when people in this world has really changed around it's gonna take a myth to do it. And this is what, of course, like one time I made a statement, and they've been repeating Columbia University

00:30:38.300 - 00:30:52.300

that I said that when interested in a democracy for Negroes, a black ministry and a myth which I am. They know that asked me to explain. It just came words came out. But I'm sure that something has got to be done about black people. You can't let them be

00:30:52.600 - 00:31:04.740

continually destructive, because they if they start magnifying that destruction, they can tell the whole country down. But I wouldn't say the North has treated me as well as it should have, but I do say I hate to see any civilization followed. I

00:31:04.740 - 00:31:18.000

don't care what cut it is, because it's very hard to get human beings to work together. Anytime you get a system or something, whether it's bad or good, it needs to stand so it can turn into something. So there evidently has been

00:31:18.000 - 00:31:35.120

something left out in the system that these particular people need, and I feel that I'm part of what they need. Of course, they know nothing about me. They so high because I'm gonna stay here as long as possible. But I do know that I could do more. I

00:31:35.180 - 00:31:50.380

could do more for the Straighten the situation out than these negro leaders can, because they're not going to be able to do anything for those people. They have nothing to operate around. Now that's that is a hard truth that America is going

00:31:50.380 - 00:32:00.780

to have to face. And every white person, they're going to have to keep search until they find something that these people need, something that they can't give them, and then they're going to have to let the ones who can give it to them give it

00:32:00.780 - 00:32:15.120

to them, and then you won't have all that in America. Guess right, these people are. They're not really mad at White people. They're angry because if some part of them is being unfulfilled, some parts of them, they can't express and because

00:32:15.120 - 00:32:27.020

it's like a big burden on them or something that's exploding, they have to do something they don't have no outlet for and the white race don't have an outlet for them, because it's a very powerful force. So they would have to have some they got to

00:32:27.020 - 00:32:42.700

have dances and things like that. They can let the centers out. They got to have plays. And like the white race, even the gangster, they got plays and they got nice places. I know some black gangsters don't have a nice place, but I do say they

00:32:42.700 - 00:32:56.740

need no place of entertainment. The white race would be very bad indeed if they didn't have that place of entertainment. I don't know what they would be. Bad enough as they are, but if they didn't have this place of entertainment, it would be

00:32:56.860 - 00:33:12.180

terrible. But these places of entertainment set up interesting things where it can really shame them and make them want some beauty. Now, black people like reporter Rick and Scott movies and everything that movie house in that language, and since

00:33:12.180 - 00:33:26.780

American Negro doesn't have any language of his own, he's part of the civilization. But he got another part of him that he won't turn her loose. If he would turn that a loose, he'd really be part of it, but he won't do it, and I really don't

00:33:26.780 - 00:33:39.380

think he's going to do it. Now, negro leaders might, but he got a party in the negro leaders know nothing about now that's that element they're out in Watts and other places that's tearing up that negro leaders won't be able to reach them, as

00:33:39.380 - 00:33:55.600

I said. Now this music and I'm dealing it will do something to to turn these people around just music. They've got to have something that they can be proud of in the first place. And it's got to be something on the high autumn, because I look at these

00:33:55.600 - 00:34:07.140

little children, and they were saying a number, something about shotguns. I said, now why? I asked his friend. I said, what to say. He said it was some kind of rock and roll. Now they've been popping on shotgun. I said he take turning eight and nine

00:34:07.140 - 00:34:27.140

singing shotgun. That's what's wrong. And I have always said that one of the things wrong that Negro children listen to a dark Negro sing some very terrible songs. These songs nullify anything a school teacher can do. They nullify

00:34:27.140 - 00:34:39.560

anything a preacher can do. They nullify anything that the government can do. It's over in the music. Now this country's got to face that. So therefore my music, first of all, is something entirely apart from that. Because all the while I

00:34:39.560 - 00:34:55.120

was growing up, I hated that kind of music. I hated it because I saw it most certainly did not harmonize and blend with my spirit and all the Linley black. It wasn't my music. Now, you got a lot of people out there like that too, but I was

00:34:55.120 - 00:35:10.380

sitting trapped and captivated over in the so called Negro race. And. They don't like it because that's not their music, and that's not their religion, it's not their philosophy, and they're not going to be satisfied down there, and it's

00:35:10.380 - 00:35:24.980

got to be a separation. And I would say that some other day, I was saying you got the white power, you got white, you got black, you got the integrates, and you've got the Negroes and agitates. That's my breakdown.

00:35:26.480 - 00:35:35.600

Do you think jobs are just as important for these people as music? The jobs come sucker these people want happiness. Because Can

00:35:36.260 - 00:35:48.280

you have happiness without a job? I don't have one. But I'm not really worried, because every time I get worse because white people, I mean, I cause black people out. But you have your art, both of them up to blame

00:35:48.280 - 00:35:56.920

for me not having any jobs, and even one of them give me a job. But to people who you are, an artist, like you are, and who don't have jobs, you think the situation is bleaker for them.

00:35:58.720 - 00:36:15.120

People like that need a friend. They have a friend. They don't care about jobs or nothing. It's been my a lot of fellas like don't have nothing increasing. They come by and talk to me and I'm not religious. I tell them, I'm weaker than evil, probably

00:36:15.120 - 00:36:29.060

worse. Somebody will touch the planet, but they like me. Then I cuss them out, and they still like me. The simple loten comes back right off me. Rodeo. Get his person out. I said nothing but something bad about him. But he comes back again, and I be

00:36:29.120 - 00:36:41.920

telling the truth too. Well. A lot of people can't stand bad truths. Like a negro said, The truth should make you free. But then I tell them, well, there are two kinds of truth, good truths, bad truths. So you can't really make the truth as your

00:36:41.920 - 00:36:58.300

stunt, because you got two Hans Truth will show its bad side to you. So therefore I would like, I would like, I feel that I can work with the myth. You can teach people through myth, like I saw some white people out there. I said, Well, you got to

00:36:58.300 - 00:37:08.580

wake up to the importance of the myth. I said, because when you first go to school, they teach you little red rodeo. They teach you myths. I said, Now, why do they do that? They don't start teaching you the truth. I said, That's indoctrinate your mind.

00:37:08.820 - 00:37:22.820

Two of them, problems of the myth and instructive powers of the myth. I said, But you getting so now you just keep on talking about the truth. But the myth is why you can have images in your mind of a better world. I suppose the out of a better

00:37:22.820 - 00:37:35.480

world, utopia is nothing but a myth. So if you move flower told a utopia, you're moving flower told myth. Of course, you got to have your blueprint, but you got to have people deal with the myth, people who deal with the truth. The ancients, the Greeks

00:37:35.480 - 00:37:50.080

and all those people dealt with myth. They didn't deal with the truth. And they did some very wonderful Kingdom, the Africans too. The Africans dealt with myths. In fact, our trade stone down where the African chiefs all that they dealt with myth.

00:37:50.260 - 00:38:04.680

They would tell their people the biggest lie you ever heard. And yet they built strong and then they built strong governments through a myth like I read once that well, if they saw somebody they liked, they knew he wasn't a member of that trial. They

00:38:04.680 - 00:38:19.200

fixed it all up like, well, Weldon the line, somebody was kin to somebody, and then that person would be a part of the tribe. But it's a big world, and you've got to have something to go by. So if you can't find the truth, you have to get the lie.

00:38:19.260 - 00:38:31.460

The White Race realized that sometimes, when they jumped into white supremacy, it wasn't a matter they really felt it, but they needed something over that race together. So I don't blame them for it. Black people need something too, if it isn't

00:38:32.000 - 00:38:43.420

nothing to Black English, because that's what I tell them. If I was going to help the black race, I would have to pull their English together, because that's all they got. And they don't like that. So not many black people. They don't understand

00:38:43.420 - 00:38:53.860

how many. So you got more of that than anybody else. So they look at me, and they back up, but they come back. I said, Well, one day I probably have to help you. And what I want you to do, I want you to give me all your English, and I'm gonna pull

00:38:53.860 - 00:39:06.900

it. I'm channel it open to something else, just like money. I suppose you don't have any money, but you have all this ignorance. And if you got any kind of product and you got a monopoly on it, you really can, you can trade with the world. So

00:39:06.900 - 00:39:20.960

I think the world would buy some of so they can get rid of it out of you. So this is a kind of abstract philosophy they haven't heard before. It's very good idea on a different Tara. Some musicians

00:39:20.960 - 00:39:32.180

have said that jazz is a music that's opposed to oppression, and therefore it's in favor of things like the Vietnamese people and the Viet Cong struggling for their freedom and against oppression.

00:39:32.420 - 00:39:42.700

What do you think about that? They don't know nothing about those people? So therefore I could have stand for something that he doesn't know anything about. Most Negroes have never studied and Jay music haven't

00:39:42.700 - 00:39:57.160

studied about those people. They have made any sample problem, and they haven't even really cooperated, corresponded with the Vietnamese musicians. Why could you be for the people, not even for the musician? They don't even know what kind of

00:39:57.160 - 00:40:06.060

instruments they play. They don't even know what kind of music. They play, they know nothing about the musician now, in order to understand the people before the first thing you approach the musicians.

00:40:06.120 - 00:40:15.000

So in other words, there's no relationship between the situation of Vietnam and what's happening in jazz. In your opinion? No, they say it is, but I'm expressing that if they really

00:40:15.000 - 00:40:30.620

were interested, they would at least have one Vietnamese musician to come over and talk to him, at least they could get the top musician and they could understand what these people are. But I've never seen one in concert. Kees, I never hear them

00:40:30.620 - 00:40:43.780

talk about the musician. They talking about the people. And yet the musicians are the people. That's when the Bible has always seen their Symphony Band, that they and the Russians see that musician and our dancers, even when the war was

00:40:43.780 - 00:40:59.680

going on, they always saw to that. And all nations always see that culture going on like that. They wanted to watch two sisters at the Welch year before last, and that King, whoever goes, he wouldn't let them come because why they weren't brought into

00:40:59.680 - 00:41:11.580

his race. So he said he sent maybe the 10th class best he wouldn't send the top dancers, but you would think that he said, Well, send the best dancers, because this would be good for them to our country. But then he was thinking about

00:41:11.820 - 00:41:23.420

his people kept the best dancers there. It hasn't been that way. Negro race, they always take their best and they give it to white people or somebody else. So they're different from the rest of the nation. I wouldn't say I never see the white race

00:41:23.420 - 00:41:38.420

in that best in the band over Negro neighborhoods, even to so called good negro. They never travel chant. They might send some of the second class out in the band. They don't send their best over there, because they need it themselves.

00:41:39.800 - 00:41:51.760

Do you think? Do you have any opinions about the situation in Vietnam? Well, as I say, I'm a humanitarian, in a sense, and I want to see a better world. I can't conceive of a better world

00:41:51.760 - 00:42:03.960

where one class of people killing the other, because I don't understand that. I'm too ignorant to understand it. I can't get politics in my mind enough to see that, that is going to help me in the long run, to do that, because it

00:42:03.960 - 00:42:18.420

would be disgracing me all along, and it also will be tearing down my images of what a man should be, which I got high status of a man, to me, should be evolution to be more than a man. He shouldn't want to stay down and be a man, because he

00:42:18.420 - 00:42:32.240

may just got a high rocket. So I do think that man should have Iraq. He should be George McConnell, what he what he really is, and should be given credit for. I don't care what he Yeah, they should say, Well, yes, he's, he's this, or he's

00:42:32.240 - 00:42:42.820

that. He's got this, he's got that. And if he has something to offer humanity, they should say, well, he's offered this, and give the man credit. Don't wait until he died, like it did bud Powell and all that. Well, he really should have been given a

00:42:42.820 - 00:42:55.780

grant. He did a lot for music and the people should he brought a lot of pleasure to a lot of people. So it shouldn't have been where he had got two films and they went out. Then band played for him. I do think the Negroes are his white friends.

00:42:55.780 - 00:43:08.340

Thought anything about him when he got off the plane at the Apple we came apart. They would add the bands there they were. Then when he got the hospital, they had the bands there. But see this, this is a different concept of what they're doing.

00:43:08.340 - 00:43:22.760

That's when I don't be around most musicians too much, because we don't, we don't see eye to eye. They're looking at present. I'm looking the long range, at the future, the kind of world we got to have if, if we're going to survive on the planet,

00:43:22.760 - 00:43:36.920

because you got all these space weapons, and people will use them unless they have something else that will deter them from you, and that's all. I've always tried to build something that would make people see beyond the present, over into something

00:43:36.920 - 00:43:46.420

that might seem only impossible, but it would give them another kind of hope. What kind of world is that? Do you have any way, any words you used to describe them? World that's

00:43:46.420 - 00:44:03.900

impossible. World It can't even be so. I put it over in the myth, but I would say that by not doing impossible, it's the only thing we haven't done. And I'm not limiting man or human society, they can't do it. I believe they can do it. They've

00:44:03.900 - 00:44:16.080

done everything that was utterly impossible to each other, that broke every kind of law for humanity, to humanity. Like I told a fellow that came over from Holland to talk musical came over on the boat waitress, will he want to travel? Right?

00:44:16.080 - 00:44:31.820

Musicians do. And he said he wanted to talk to me. He wanted to see because he had one of my records, and he don't want to leave to get over here that way. So that's what I told him, that same that same sentiment about the situation.

00:44:33.500 - 00:44:47.620

Can I drag your attention back from the future to the present for a minute and ask you, what do you think about working conditions for jazz musicians. Do you feel on the whole that jazz musicians are treated as artists deserve to be treated.

00:44:48.640 - 00:45:04.500

They treat it exactly the way they have been acted, which has been very bad. Although jazz musicians contribute a lot to the world, some of them acted so bad to the actual. On. A lot of white people against jazz, but they didn't want to hear it, and

00:45:04.500 - 00:45:18.900

it turned a lot of Negroes or black people, the average man against them. But every time they pick up people, they saw that. This is that, every time they saw Davies with the white woman, and they weren't over there. So therefore they

00:45:18.900 - 00:45:30.680

completely disassociated themselves from Henze, that's what rock and roll got in there, because those musicians were closer to the people. And finally, whereas jazz had been the thing, the new thing in black race, the rock and rolls

00:45:30.680 - 00:45:41.980

and these other people took over. And although the people are really tired of it, they still feel closer to somebody that's part of them, or seemingly so, than they do somebody who says they are, and yet they over have done

00:45:41.980 - 00:45:56.680

something else, because they don't understand that, you see, but the man is working every day and all that. He's dealing with some realities, harsh reality. So he hadn't reached the point for abstracts and two way thinking and all that. So he has

00:45:56.680 - 00:46:11.940

to go and hear musicians that are for him, and they have to come down to his level. You can't lift a man up unless you bow down this level, and we stoop down as low as he is, pick him up. And every gentleman is not going to do that, because

00:46:11.940 - 00:46:25.520

their minds on pleasing the white race and getting in polls and playing in the top places and applause. And they they got their ego. They can play. All of them can play. More of them can write, since they're going to concerto. So right now, they're

00:46:25.520 - 00:46:41.800

really drunk with ego. That's what I said about a lot of the new things. They're really drunk with the applause just makes them dress as high or higher than any drugs. And this is the part what I'm watching about them. Well, when I first started

00:46:41.800 - 00:46:58.060

on my mute, it was to try to make inroads into the status quo of black people's minds, preferably them, because they really don't have anything artistic. I want to break down in there and make them hear other kinds of music. He'll hear

00:46:58.060 - 00:47:09.720

selfness, hear everything that brought in their mind. And I felt I could do it. If they saw me playing something, then they would listen to some other type of news. Because I think anything is beautiful from whatever country, whatever

00:47:09.720 - 00:47:24.500

people found, it should be listened to. But most black people don't hear anything but just one thing, one beat. This is what I really want to get rid of that. So Lew rodeo went out there, like I said, and the poets went out there, they was,

00:47:24.560 - 00:47:37.940

I thought they were gonna do a lot, but the most of they just built on a racial question, and they do it on sex and things. I was disappointed. So I've talked about them so bad. Don't let them come around me now, but eventually I found them. I'll

00:47:37.940 - 00:47:51.280

talk about them some more, because it has to be a revolution. To me, would be me changing the poets, changing the playwrights, changing the musicians, changing the preachers. I'm interested in that that's the hardest job.

00:47:51.280 - 00:48:02.040

That's the hardest job in changing life and then changing the society. The whole society would change because it's standing still because of black people. Is it fair to call that change revolution?

00:48:04.920 - 00:48:15.420

No, it's not a revolution. Black people never revolt. They spiral. They'll never come back to the point where they were. No, I didn't mean that guy. I didn't mean I meant a social

00:48:15.420 - 00:48:30.440

revolution, not an orbital revolution. They never revel. They never go around like like most nations go around, come back where they were, but they don't do that. They do this. That's right, they always spiral or not, like the

00:48:30.440 - 00:48:45.880

musicians, I can tell them in my band, I said, I do this, and thus, and so, you know. And then when I know anything, they moved on somewhere else. So then I have to have a point where I can discipline them, what they want, what I want, and balance it,

00:48:46.000 - 00:49:02.880

hold them in line. Otherwise it wouldn't be what I wanted at all. And it takes a it takes a leader that is able to bend to do that, maybe not what you call a strong leader, because they just walk on off and leave that somebody can bend with them in

00:49:02.880 - 00:49:17.040

Texas. Now, don't wait. Don't go over there, and they'll listen when they're told. But most black people don't listen. They sit in church. They don't listen. They say yes and all that. And it went in one ear and after other. That's when I when

00:49:17.040 - 00:49:29.180

I went to college to teach. I decided I wouldn't teach, but I said I'm not going to waste my time, but one day, I'll come up with something where, when I whatever I do, they will listen. But I do say that most of the school teachers are teaching

00:49:29.180 - 00:49:45.580

black children, and they grow. If you ask them and they tell you the truth, they will tell you one thing, none of them learning anything. That's the truth. I know that now it has to be some way where some area in their mind will learn to listen,

00:49:46.960 - 00:50:01.080

some kind of nature, natural defense of that said, don't learn anything now, maybe it's something else they supposed. I don't think that the white race has it, because it's something they don't have. That's when they using their. SD, they got

00:50:01.080 - 00:50:18.060

sense enough to know that they got they talking about mine expansion, which they trying that, but it's my ideas. What they need is mine contraction, to contract the mind to a point of diminish demand to a fine point. But the expansion is

00:50:18.060 - 00:50:30.320

something else seeking, like I told that expansion, it would make move them out like a balloon. See, move the mind over into if you had a balloon Stroud, blow it up, and it would go on out that door, on out in the street. You know, it's

00:50:31.160 - 00:50:44.620

clouded enough to do that, but then it'll be out there somewhere else, and something might happen to it. So I said they expand their mind over into another permission, something else and get over in there and maybe take over. You see it take

00:50:44.620 - 00:50:58.420

over then. But they didn't get anything, I said, But mind concentration could develop something so powerful, it'd be just like a powerful sun or throwing out images. And they can see by that it's the exact opposite. But I do know that the

00:50:58.420 - 00:51:15.060

white race can't continue the way they are. They must have something that is missing. That's the point. Now, the black ones got something already, but it's all locked up in their minds. They won't let nothing in can nothing get out

00:51:17.700 - 00:51:32.420

in jazz? To get back to the question I raised about, can working conditions? Do you think that whites have more economic opportunities and are gifted with better working conditions than blacks, inside jazz alone,

00:51:33.200 - 00:51:45.040

in all walks of life, if they really got stuff away well off, but they got better opportunities because it's set up like that, the white leaders have been more exact and precise and sincere than the black ones. Come down to that.

00:51:45.040 - 00:51:54.280

I think it's a question of sincerity. For example, that Benny Goodman had a movie made out of his life story where Count Basie. Goodman, yeah, dude, because the black people is a lot of black men,

00:51:54.400 - 00:52:06.540

they want a movie made of Count Basie. They could do it and take over income tax. Watch the white people make it they don't know nothing about his life, really, except what he tell them. But the black ones would know whether he's telling a lie about

00:52:06.540 - 00:52:20.720

his life and his conditions. The new musicians look to Asia and Africa for some of their musical inspiration. Well, from what I hear, used to love teeth and smoke musicians

00:52:20.720 - 00:52:30.500

and Coltrane too, in his earliest stages with Miles Davies, he seemed to been doing that. Do you think that there are social and political reasons for this, besides just musical ones,

00:52:30.980 - 00:52:45.400

for example, son Negroes don't have sense enough to have any political or any other kind of sense about anything whatsoever, and that includes all of them, from top to bottom. That's pretty sweeping statement, most certainly yes, and I want you to

00:52:45.400 - 00:53:00.360

magnify they have nothing whatsoever in the way of anything about the world, until they reach back and get what they denied Weldon Ancient Egypt, until they do that the white race can forget. Stop Wasting all our money, stop

00:53:00.360 - 00:53:13.020

wasting all our education institute and everything else, because they won't be able to help them until they they reach back and pick up what they dropped, which they never should have dropped. And that was, well, they did one thing they

00:53:13.440 - 00:53:26.360

they caused the original ruler to abdicate, which is, was really Pharaoh. Everything connected with black people, connected with ancient pharaohs, which you don't even have a pharaoh government on the planet now. Now you got all other

00:53:26.360 - 00:53:40.100

governments, got their rules. Why don't you have a black Pharaoh? It's because black people did something to him. They they caused him to abdicate. And as far as my wisdom is concerned, I studied crisis only something warring.

00:53:40.100 - 00:53:55.480

The world of black people tried to crucify that leader, which was Pharaoh, and until they they get a pharaoh back, they're not going to be successful. You can just forget it. You might as well forget your anti proprio program. You might as well get

00:53:55.480 - 00:54:07.620

anything. It's nothing, whatever it's going to be able to do for black people. Because the first reason I'm a witness against them, the very fact that I don't have no way to play and getting write ups all over the world proved black people no good from

00:54:07.620 - 00:54:18.780

top to bottom, because they don't even give me a quality, don't you might be due to the fact that black people don't have much money. They got trained, got plenty of money, and I have to give him ideas on

00:54:18.780 - 00:54:31.400

what he's doing for our sons over there playing with him. And when he was so ragged that you could see at the bottom, he'd come right here, when his shoes he was on the ground, well, I bought him shoes and I bought me some pants. I bought him some

00:54:31.760 - 00:54:45.100

and when we ate, he ate. Now, since he got up, double Coltrane, I don't even see him. And that's been typical of a lot of black musings I've helped all the way through the years. They so ungrateful until I hate them, worse than I can hate any black

00:54:45.100 - 00:54:55.480

person. After I get through hating them, I'll get around the white people next. But I think after white people see how bad I hate being the dead, straighten up. You don't think that black people alone are like that? I

00:54:55.480 - 00:55:05.940

mean, don't you think ingratitude is white? I haven't been I haven't been associated with white people. Enough for them to do anything to me. I've been associated with black people all my life, to their views and

00:55:05.940 - 00:55:22.820

their neglect and their lives and their hypocrisy. I know all about them now I'm talking about them to the whole world. They are no good, and they're not spiritual either, and they got a big nail. Tara, not sold. Mew, they have no soul stuff. If they

00:55:22.820 - 00:55:39.980

had some souls, they would at least ask me if I was hungry. But I don't make no black people with all the money, I'm a single black leader like at Hans Werner Henze. They don't even know whether I'm eating. They don't know whether I'm gonna get put

00:55:39.980 - 00:55:54.460

out both. They know nothing about me. So if they had any Charles they would, if Coltrane had any Russell musicians, they would come and say, Well, are you hungry? Do you want a cup of coffee? But to the contrary, they never even think about what

00:55:54.460 - 00:56:04.140

I'm doing, because why they don't care. They so egotistic until I really hate them. You know, talking about Coltrane, it seems to me, the Coltrane is somewhat of an exception, because he

00:56:04.140 - 00:56:16.320

takes around he was taking around Pharaoh and Archie Shepherd. He didn't really have to do that, and he didn't really have very much to gain. He was trying to steal my idea. That's why he took them in. He

00:56:16.320 - 00:56:29.900

didn't want to come over just and say, Well, I can learn something this way. He would rather do it underhand like he did Elvin Jones, instead of coming out finding like a man and said, Well, I can't use you anymore. He got Rasheed over and

00:56:29.900 - 00:56:41.260

now so that one would quit. Is that what you think happened? That's exactly what he did. And he quit. It worked. You see, I know he quit. That's why he quit, because he took something and put over here

00:56:41.260 - 00:56:57.460

with him that he knew was not. It wasn't on the way. He knew that he had some problems with Robin as far as, like, personal things he was doing, but he'd been together so long, and he and Evan actually helped to make him successful. So did my car

00:56:57.460 - 00:57:11.400

time, of course, if it hadn't been for them being in the group at that particular time. He never would be the Coltrane. He is those fellows left to make him then he kicked them out. Well, I know he didn't kick McCoy out. I mean, McCoy just

00:57:11.400 - 00:57:25.400

left them because the car was romanticism, piano. So how could he play the new thing? He doesn't. He's been thinking just the love thing. So he plays that he played beautifully on that. So Coltrane wanted to move over on something which is my

00:57:25.400 - 00:57:41.320

territory, which was wrong. I mean, I never made any money out of but he's such a big thief. He saw the future this was going to be the music. So now he actually jumped out there and and tried to and did fly before the public, like even when his LPs,

00:57:41.320 - 00:57:55.480

they mention that what he's playing is what we've been playing, we haven't made any money at it, and get somebody else running out, grabbing a fellow musician, and put it out to the world like it's him. He playing a new thing

00:57:55.480 - 00:58:04.500

that's wrong. Would you mind if I mention this to him? I would like for you to man, tell him, I'm getting ready to tell the French about it. Okay? I'm gonna talk about him on TV. I'm gonna keep

00:58:04.500 - 00:58:20.180

on talking until he does something. Because he's risks the most heartless musician in the business. Do you think he's okay? Let's not want to mention too, like this Lord supremely God, that he got all

00:58:20.180 - 00:58:35.300

that in there about God using the name of God in order to move forward commercially. I've never known a musician to be so grafted to do something like that. But he's not really spiritual. First place, he said he was talking down in this

00:58:35.300 - 00:58:50.380

about love supreme. And he got in there talking about, supposedly, about God, and said, Oh, Master this and that. And he got all these beautiful words about God, and he said so forth. And anybody who would give anything spiritual, never speak

00:58:50.380 - 00:59:04.200

of a creator like that. When I saw that, I said, co train you never speak of your Creator. And a man talking about so forth, if you don't have time to write about it, ought to have time, if he's so grateful to him, at least he would have a chance put

00:59:04.200 - 00:59:17.400

what that sofa feels. I would like to know what he meant by so forth. Maybe you better ask him. I am gonna he keeps hiding from because I keep on sending wood by the folks he stole that I've taught how much I hate him and he dodge me.

00:59:17.400 - 00:59:37.640

Used to call me up. Do you have any opinions on what used to be called third stream music? There was a big vote for a few years ago, and now seems to have passed completely. Do you have any feeling about why the younger musicians and new

00:59:37.640 - 00:59:49.300

singers aren't playing third stream music and are playing the new thing instead, what I'm thinking like Gunther Schuler, some of his composition, some of

00:59:49.300 - 01:00:01.440

the things that John Lewis did with the modern jazz quartet, a symphony orchestra. Well, they it's still a third stream of music. They did something which they had done. Very well, but it's over on a

01:00:01.440 - 01:00:14.580

Friday side of life. Well, they're blending into two types of music, jazz and something that's over and something that's on a Friday side. Whereas some things I'm doing, they often refer to it as violence, which, because being evil and weak

01:00:14.580 - 01:00:25.520

enough, I would do something like that, no more than just agitate the planet, which I love, but not do anything else to agitate the planet. So until they do something about condition and change

01:00:25.520 - 01:00:35.960

it, that's what you see. The function of your music, then is that my music is dedicated to agitating white folks so badly until they'll do something about themselves. Because I can't

01:00:35.960 - 01:00:47.560

stand the way they are. They must devolute to something better. They got to either be better or worse. I can't stand them the way they are. I can't accept them the way they are. So it's not a matter of prejudice. They just don't come up to no

01:00:47.560 - 01:00:59.140

kind of style and seeing what they be teaching other people to come up to. So I can't go for hypocrisy. So they must evolution. Now, black folks are the same way too. I can't stand them the way they are because they talking about they

01:00:59.140 - 01:01:11.520

spiritual, and I know if they were spiritual, they would stop hating each other and because that was there for me to hate them, but they would stop hurting one another and cutting each other and shooting one another and backbiting and doing

01:01:11.520 - 01:01:26.060

dirty things like John Coltrane, for our son, was too. How could white people get worse? How could they get worse? They get to be like Negroes. You read two Negroes,

01:01:27.080 - 01:01:39.980

they'd be worse two Negroes than they are already. No they can be worse if they turn to lose the hard type of music and just get a negro music, like some that low class

01:01:39.980 - 01:01:56.980

music Negroes playing, they would be at the ultimate lowest. But the only thing that's holding them up really, they do have some Sunday band. They do take care of that. Suddenly, band and white people do give tremendous grants to their

01:01:57.160 - 01:02:07.440

aunts, although a lot of black folks are calling them beasts. I think it's pretty nice for a beast to see. They have nice ballets and all that. I wish a few black folks get to be beasts. But of course, black folks don't

01:02:07.440 - 01:02:15.120

have that kind of money. They do have Panama. Do you know how many Negro millionaires, but they're nobody. There's nobody. Compared with the Guggenheim to the mountains,

01:02:15.120 - 01:02:27.620

how many, how many Negro millionaires that set up one Art Center? Don't you think they want them to have hard enough to set up an art center take it off his income? Tara, well, the guys who set up the art centers for whites were not only

01:02:27.620 - 01:02:38.900

millionaires, they were billionaires. They were Rockefellers and Carnegie's and melons and fricks and scapes and Chandlers. Those are those people are not millionaires. Those are billionaires. Really black economic power in this

01:02:38.900 - 01:02:52.180

country is still like a child standing next to a man. It makes no difference. I've done miracles with the small amount of money. I'm not gonna give black folks any excuse if I've done what I've done with Linley Hans. That's right.

01:02:52.240 - 01:03:06.180

You're not gonna give them any way out for them. But to do one thing that's really right. Certain writers have said that the new music lacks form and structure and so on. What do you think of those charges? What do

01:03:06.180 - 01:03:16.260

you think? Well, the earth likes it too. The people will have any form of stress you got the UN over there, and they're not able to get anything together, stop the wall. So why shouldn't the music be musician

01:03:16.260 - 01:03:25.760

got just as much right to be farmers, instructors as gods of this planet. None of them know good. Why do you think white writers are or so many white writers are hostile to the new music?

01:03:26.420 - 01:03:41.740

Well, they're hostile to the new music because they really haven't heard the creators of the chair. And if they had me fans, yeah, okay. And if they had heard you, you suppose, it seems to me, I read a review of yours by Bill

01:03:41.740 - 01:03:53.920

Matthew and Dodie, and he didn't. He didn't seem like he was about to throw his arms about you. Well, he did, in a sense, but it just was shocked to him to run across a black mind like mine, and actually, why people not used to

01:03:54.760 - 01:04:06.660

my kind of being? Because a white woman told me once in a soccer she'd never met ahead of a nigga like me to fold. So that's really a good compliment. She was probably correct on first place. I'm not a nigga, but at least she come down to

01:04:06.660 - 01:04:23.240

the point where she knew I was something different. And this is what, like the white race would have to realize that I am something different, and they've got to face me, they've got to analyze the situation, and they got to find what I am. Now the

01:04:23.240 - 01:04:40.040

average Negro, an average black person, they know what they are. They know what they going to do exactly nothing but talk. But in my case, it's not like that. They have faced something new. And in facing something new, when the white race give full

01:04:40.100 - 01:04:54.220

and correct judgment, they will have evolution beyond if you're going to whatever these beasts like state, whatever they in, whatever is I can't accept them, but the answer they can accept, or at least Analyze Me properly, then they will have gained the

01:04:54.220 - 01:05:08.160

right to really discriminate. And they've been discriminating all through the years against liberals, so they've had good. Practice. So I'm a challenge to them in their discrimination. Did they learn anything in their discrimination? I'm the teacher

01:05:08.160 - 01:05:23.060

to see give them their test. Now, are they able to discriminate between the true and the false, the good and the evil? Can they actually place me in the category where I'm supposed to be something that black people haven't done. I'm

01:05:23.060 - 01:05:37.220

on this planet and black folks haven't judged me properly, and I'm right here in the midst of all peoples now the first one to judge properly and tell the truth about me. I'm gonna help them to ever Lou. I don't care what color they are. The fact

01:05:37.220 - 01:05:50.500

that the white race will do properly by me, I raise them up higher over the black race than they ever been. I put black folks up under something that you'd have to erase Pharaoh out of the history books, and I would punish them so badly until

01:05:50.500 - 01:06:01.740

all of them would do what they supposed to do, because I'm not going to accept them the way they are, because they're not natural in my present state. And it doesn't have anything to do with white people. They're just so natural, rebellious, evil

01:06:01.740 - 01:06:14.880

people, and I'm gonna make them admit it to it's not a single righteous one on the planet there's righteous. They wouldn't be over there fighting each other in Africa. If they were brothers, they'd be my brother, but they're not my brother,

01:06:15.180 - 01:06:26.240

because they don't even care whether I eat, whether I play or nothing. That's why I hate maybe they're too busy worrying about whether they they're gonna be too busy worried about when I Spy looking white people

01:06:26.240 - 01:06:37.640

instead of them, if they're not careful, and there won't be nothing that can save them. Probably on a space age, I've been telling negros and black folks for 12 years about this age was coming. I got on the street owners, like I mentioned

01:06:37.640 - 01:06:49.360

last night in Chicago, and they made fun of me. Called me Moon Man everything, because I was telling folks getting ready to go to the moon, and that eventually was going on, they made fun of me. I am forgotten that, because I don't forget

01:06:49.360 - 01:07:03.720

things. And Negroes got a day coming, see actually, they knew about the space thing before the white populous woke up, because I was telling them, and I still I saw two playing. I played for black people so much because they were so far behind that I

01:07:03.720 - 01:07:16.860

just dedicated my time and placement for faculty or nothing, so that they would not ever have to say that I didn't care anything about them. It was now that I did care about them that I sacrificed all my time. Sacrifice like Bookcafe mission.

01:07:16.860 - 01:07:31.100

I sacrifice careers. I did that because I loved black fever, but, and I wanted them to come up out of this sleep Day in. But did they care about me? No, they didn't. And Rick Johnson was one of them that ridicule even brought on up to today. So see

01:07:31.100 - 01:07:45.400

now I haven't forgotten him. I'm on strike at him too, because he's black and he's a negro. So actually, I'm at war with them. Anytime any black man speak against me. I'm against the whole race until they either do something, make that man come

01:07:45.400 - 01:07:57.460

and beg my pardon, because he's part of them. He's that brother. He's not my brother, and say they go for a white race, anytime one of them speak against me and tell a lie, I'm against every white man, see, because that's wrong. They

01:07:57.460 - 01:08:09.720

supposed to do justice. You can't have a plan of where you go around and let people mistreat innocent. I don't care if the church does say crucified innocent. I don't believe in that. I don't practice that. I don't believe an innocent person

01:08:09.720 - 01:08:24.740

being attacked, and the best way I can show the world I don't is to retaliate when somebody attacked me, because I'm not righteous, and I'm just sitting back in my stuff with Gulch on me, and Negroes got a day, and the black man got a day. But the

01:08:24.740 - 01:08:40.720

truth must be told. I'm telling the truth now about them. What happened with you and Bernard Stoneman in that concert that Bob Levis, Hans Werner Henze, me or something? Oh, Bernard is one of

01:08:40.720 - 01:08:54.460

the biggest crooks in the business. But it ought to show now I'm not really pressed against if I raised I'm dealing one the worst characters in the race. I know he's he's very evil, he's very tricky, and he has a mind where he's looking

01:08:54.460 - 01:09:06.180

farther in the future, and he knows certainly didn't intend to treat me right when I signed with him. That's why I signed with it. So no white president said I'm pressed against them, because if I sign up with one of the worst, somebody's in their

01:09:06.180 - 01:09:21.080

race, he's intelligent, but he's Cruz if I sign up with somebody the worst, somebody in the white race, which he candidates for that title. You know, I'm not press against white people, because I even got a chance to talk to the best worst saw me

01:09:21.200 - 01:09:34.160

first like Werner stolen. You still, you still have a contract with him. I still got a contract with him because I'm throwing it up to the white race. Now, I signed up one of their worst so they can't say that I'm fair enough about white people. They

01:09:34.160 - 01:09:50.380

can't say that I hate them, because if I, if I sympathetic enough to sign one of their words, that means that I'm ready to do business with anybody but Bernard stroudman was the only one with all his badness. He was the only one that would record

01:09:50.440 - 01:10:07.980

me. So I think that's pretty good. Did you talk to Alfred line? I talked to Alfred now go back down on the interview. Cruz. I. Alfred lamb asked me what kind of music I thought. He said, what things we did in Chicago. And I explained to him,

01:10:07.980 - 01:10:20.540

I was doing this infinity music and international music for all the nations on the planet. He said that was impossible to do, that nobody could do that they had been talked about for some time, but that it was impossible. I said, Well, you

01:10:20.540 - 01:10:37.220

are meeting Morton So, and he just threw it all night. He said, couldn't be done. But that's the same thing in my Davies, but actually, his brother took me John about about six or seven years ago. His brother named Ron Davies, and he

01:10:37.220 - 01:10:50.740

plays trumpet two, and he's a broker, so we were doing some experimentation together, and he told us, I want you to meet my I want you to meet Mallea near the music. So we went over at the theater, Regal Theater, in Chicago. So myself, what kind of

01:10:50.740 - 01:11:05.400

music is it? I explained to him. He said, That's impossible. He said, can't be done. It's just a theory and can't be done. This fellow said, fool, I played trumpet too. I've been to school too, just because you've been to these Juilliard Weldon and all

01:11:05.400 - 01:11:17.760

that, don't, don't play me cheap. He said I brought somebody around for you to talk to the musician. The least you could do was to respect him and not tell him about what he can't do and all that. And I know, without saying with him, and I'm

01:11:17.760 - 01:11:33.380

over there playing with him, and you refuse to even have brought enough mind to even listen to me. Did he ever listen to music? He never did, but because he had a close mind. You see, like most black musicians and Negro musicians, up until the point

01:11:33.380 - 01:11:47.200

when we kept on doing what we had been doing, and they began to see that the white people really wasn't ridiculing me then, because you take walking cold training with my Davies, and I first played this music for him. He listened to it about

01:11:47.200 - 01:12:01.900

three hours, and then he said, Well, he said, I think he said, I'm gonna have to leave my boss. This is more like what I want. Mine's not playing it. And he said, I'm gonna have to work toward this. So I was playing some other music for us, a lot

01:12:01.900 - 01:12:18.120

on that. So finally, he's Henze reaches what he heard me doing on island now, and all of he loves mentioning it, but it's true, because I got witnesses to it, and that's what he's trying to reach towards. So it's a matter where the different

01:12:18.120 - 01:12:32.420

musicians have actually fought against me, all the stuff, all the way someone have even threatened me with bodily harm at times when I was one time he was full of blood out of my face. A lot of things have happened to me. One time a black

01:12:32.480 - 01:12:44.440

man came knocking me down because of the Muse. Guy was playing. I've been through a lot of things from black people. I'm tired of it. What about your band now, though, I mean the band, yeah,

01:12:45.760 - 01:13:02.340

those are black musicians too. Well, they stay with me because they know I'm very treacherous and tricky, and if they leave, I'm still gonna jump on do something. They'd be left out in the cold. That's why they stayed

01:13:02.340 - 01:13:15.480

me. Well, they noted that although the world might think they got me defeated, I'm starting to jump up and do something so totally far out until the world sit up and take notice and they know I'm fairly capable of doing it. They don't

01:13:15.480 - 01:13:28.340

know when I'm going to do so by me sitting by meek and humble and acting, I can't fool them even like on the other last Monday, it's not where I could, you know what determine a band leader hydrocry so well in my Kees, I can't get rid of my

01:13:28.340 - 01:13:40.100

musician, which I can't not the new puss up. They're not going anywhere. Like John Gilmore, he had a chance to go anywhere. I told him to go. You know, he wouldn't go see if he went with these other tournaments, waiting on him to go. But sure enough,

01:13:40.100 - 01:13:57.040

every time he would go out of town for our Santa to show right up ready for rehearsal. So I'm in Chicago, John, and tell him I was holding him back a lot of other things. And then they would say, Well, if he ever leaves, they call themselves,

01:13:57.040 - 01:14:12.480

John ever leaves. Well, I played Turner. I played this man. And so it's been there. But the main thing about it, John Gilmore was a very good reader, and I'm going to be concentrating on written things which are going to be precision discipline,

01:14:12.480 - 01:14:24.380

things not going to be like last night I spoke with precision discipline rather than freedom, because as far as I'm concerned, that's what black people really need, precision discipline. They don't need any freedom writing do it. They'll never have

01:14:24.380 - 01:14:39.740

anymore. They have precision discipline. That's what they need. They're too free now to do wrong. So that's what I'm dealing precision discipline. So these Weldon are used to it. So if they get over another band and they find out that the band

01:14:39.740 - 01:14:49.660

leaders are not eating discipline. They don't like that, but then they be complaining about the band leaders. They got themselves together. So naturally, come right back to me, because they know I'm going to be talking

01:14:49.660 - 01:15:01.440

about their faults and okay, how good they get. I'm going to bring something out today. I'm playing. So it's really a challenge to them. They never know when I'm gonna bring out a ring that they won't be. Of the play. I got several that none of

01:15:01.440 - 01:15:15.660

them can play. They can read. They can't play it. I got several language that I got about 10 arrangements that nobody in the band can play. And they some of the best readers in the world, and not only them, no other musicians gonna play it.

01:15:16.020 - 01:15:28.400

I'd have to show them how to play. In other words, it's based on another form of rhythmic idea, and I actually have to show them the rhythmic idea before they could play it. I write like that. One time I brought out two and ranges band

01:15:28.400 - 01:15:41.740

to play when he was in Chicago, they couldn't play it. And this is what the musician says. I was playing with Fletcher about a year before he died. He let me. I played piano with him, and the musician didn't. They didn't like me because they didn't like

01:15:41.740 - 01:15:55.600

what I was doing on the piano. And I said, Well, Fletcher plays piano, and he hired me, so he must like when I'm done playing. Okay, what cause I play? Well, it was disturbing them because it wasn't the usual cause they was trying to get me to play out

01:15:55.600 - 01:16:11.160

to other piano players. But I don't play the earth things. I do the space things better. So why should I imitate somebody else when I'm doing something natural stuff? So anyway, they said, Bring out Fletcher told me to bring out two arrangements. I

01:16:11.160 - 01:16:22.340

said, Well, why should I bring out arrangements? They can't play it. So they left me to star. And they said, Well, we play sovereign, we played discord, we played Fletch and Randy, we played all top of range. So how could you come up

01:16:22.340 - 01:16:38.300

and say something like that? So I brought out the rain. One was deal Southland, and other was, I should care two proper numbers, and they couldn't play it. They tried for two hours. They couldn't play those arranged because it had other rhythm

01:16:38.420 - 01:16:49.600

things going on. I said, that's what I'm talking about now. The ring was held, been played. Both these arrangements have been played for two years, and a college band I had by some students so they could be played. And people had danced by

01:16:49.840 - 01:17:05.640

but they weren't used to these rhythms the way they were moving next. It was hanging too. Fletcher didn't understand it, but he appreciated what I was doing. He had to to hire me. And when I quit his band, he would have another piano player, and I

01:17:05.640 - 01:17:18.300

had to go back and get an event. I stayed with him until they went, until they left Chicago. He was playing the club. Delicious. He saw what I was doing. But you know, opposition came from the musician. The people are like what I was

01:17:18.300 - 01:17:33.500

doing. But in my case, like in most other musicians like did, and the musicians were Frazier, and they helped them, and they looked up to them. But in my case, I've had a bitter fight, particularly with Negro musicians, with the music that

01:17:33.500 - 01:17:45.700

I'm playing, and I had to scheme and do everything to reach past them to the light race. You know, really, you know nothing about me if there's been left up to them, what they would have done would be to take my idols and bring it to the white race

01:17:45.880 - 01:18:00.900

and then pretend it like it was theirs. But it just might have something on my side, where the white race actually going to face me in person, and they will be able to judge for the first time, something in the black race. They come up to the top

01:18:00.900 - 01:18:11.520

where they can see it for themselves. Instead of getting it from somebody else, they take it and bring it to them. That's been happening in the white race a long time. Some black person will originate something. Then some black music would take it

01:18:11.520 - 01:18:24.440

and steal it and bring it to the white race and say he did. He proposed it. And the white race has been getting cheated with a lot of musicians who are not really musicians. Some of them got photographic minds, and they can get somebody please run and

01:18:24.440 - 01:18:40.300

they steal it. So the white race, actually, they're gonna have to learn how to distinguish between a creator and an imitator. Now that's my job, to let them know the difference between these phonies and the reality. They might not know,

01:18:40.600 - 01:18:54.340

but I know because I've been in jail all my so called life, and I've dealt with true musicians. I know the reality is from the phones. And this is what white people got to give some musicians some jobs. So I do think if you're going to give

01:18:54.340 - 01:19:05.280

some some job, don't give it to the phones, because when you give it to a phony he's not going to help his race. He's not gonna have the right race, he's gonna throw his money away, and then it's gonna leave a burden on you for to take care of a lot

01:19:05.280 - 01:19:17.820

of people. It's not really your responsibility, because white people really sort of take care of white people, and black people supposed to take care of black people, and black people got to learn responsibilities, because that's nature and it's

01:19:17.820 - 01:19:32.120

inescapable. White people cannot change the laws of nature, and they must see to some black people, taking care of black people because they don't have a hard drive on their hands, taking care of white people. Anytime you got so many college

01:19:32.120 - 01:19:45.280

students going around shooting white people, you got to concentrate on them. You won't have time to be brought with the bad black people. You got too many. They're getting the loose with LSD and all that kind of stuff, you see. So now you do

01:19:45.280 - 01:19:59.380

have some people like me in the black race who fully capito of beating black people into submission to their natural self. You don't have no trouble out of them, no trouble whatsoever. It's a spiritual thing, because they're not going

01:19:59.380 - 01:20:12.240

to listen to. Grow leaders. They're not going to listen to grow preachers. They're only going to listen to something they fear. And they're going to fear what really can just split their souls into million islands and destroy them and annihilate

01:20:12.240 - 01:20:25.640

them spiritually. They fear that. And only people who are naturally sent by the natural force of nature can do that. You can't make a leader for Negro you can send you can get one right out of college, the degree that you put him over there

01:20:25.640 - 01:20:42.340

trying to teach him, he won't be able to do nothing. So these people are very close to nature. Anything close to nature is necessarily almost evil for a strong force. So you have to have a strong force to challenge in the proper direction. Just

01:20:42.340 - 01:20:55.960

waste some time. They'll be very destructive. They talking about Black Power, and they have a right to black power, but what they do with it, they don't know them constructive to do with it. And I tell them that, if you Tara, what are you going to

01:20:55.960 - 01:21:10.080

build in this place? And they never answer me. Now, I'm not I'm for constructiveness and for creativeness, and that's what black people used to be. They built several civilization before the white race knew what a civilization was. How come

01:21:10.080 - 01:21:22.880

they can't do it? Now? A lot of them says the white race is responsibility, but I wouldn't want to put that on the white racist shoulder. I wouldn't say that. Or people that build civilizations back there. They got enough in them, if they be

01:21:22.940 - 01:21:35.060

sincere and true to themselves, to do anything now, to contribute to the whole world, rather than to be destroying and disgracing themselves. But that's what they doing anytime the only solution they got to that problem is to destroy. And

01:21:35.060 - 01:21:56.320

Tara was a pretty sad race. I passed. I pastor, it's bad for white people to think that the only way they can survive is going in Vietnam and kill those poor people. It's really nothing in their favor with all our colleges and all our churches to

01:21:56.320 - 01:22:12.120

have to resolve to brutal methods, to do something that they say is necessary. Everybody wants to survive. They're over there killing human beings for 10 or something like that. I can understand the financial aspect of everybody needs some money.

01:22:12.600 - 01:22:25.340

White people particularly need a lot of money because they got too many people that hate them. I can understand that. But they also can deal on that space problems, and they can fix up a phony economy until they get themselves together, because

01:22:25.700 - 01:22:40.160

they're aggressive, sort of bending people, and they have to do it. I know it might seem impossible for them to survive, but they must survive. They have to do it. That's why I know to a lot of white people, I

01:22:40.160 - 01:22:54.160

was right. I would be looking at that it's impossible for me to get out of this situation so I can understand the way they think. But of course, it's completely wrong, because it's always a way out. It's always a way out, but you have to find it

01:22:56.140 - 01:23:14.340

like I realized some time ago when and he said some things that, since he was a top right philosophers, Linley, he said some things that actually made the situation hopeless for the right ways. One of the things he said was that it wasn't nothing

01:23:14.340 - 01:23:28.760

new. It wasn't anything new to black people contribute to white people that all the ground said, in color, philosophically religious, all kind of ways, by the white race, and yet it wasn't sufficient enough to evolution to white race. So he

01:23:28.760 - 01:23:42.220

said, in this case, it's nothing for us to do, but in a sense, just prepare to die, because black people can't contribute anything to us, which we don't teach them, because we know we got all the books and everything we got the Wisdom and anything

01:23:42.220 - 01:24:00.780

they come up with is something that we taught them, and since we can't help ourselves, how can they help us? Now that's what I read. I was very disappointed he said that, but he was wrong. Another top right music teacher educator said that wasn't going

01:24:00.780 - 01:24:11.520

to be anything new and muted. They had covered all the bounds they could in the scales and in the melodies. It wasn't nothing new to be evolved. Now this is a top person. Now when I was going to college, I read that, but that

01:24:11.520 - 01:24:22.520

wasn't true. They say that in every field, and they're always wrong, because we're doing things that are new, and other people doing things that are new. So that's not true. So I do think that the white race

01:24:22.520 - 01:24:35.420

would be so busy reading these books when their college professor that they should look around them, at the at three others in the midst of things, and start looking to do the impossible, because they can do it. You know, anytime they stole

01:24:35.420 - 01:24:49.540

a big country like America, they didn't do anything. That's true. After wake up first, they have to wake up and and do something else, conquer something other things. This is a whole new thing over for them space. And they have to stop thinking that

01:24:49.540 - 01:25:02.520

because they can't do nothing with these black folks. I wouldn't have nothing to do with nothing my job to do something to talk about, because I got my own, my own thing to do. I don't. Be up in the problem with the right ways. I can go

01:25:02.520 - 01:25:16.560

anywhere and associate looking and talk about them, and be free as our enemies with my still be there because I got something powerful, and I'm busy thinking about infinity. I don't have time to think about the other things which are really

01:25:16.560 - 01:25:30.140

triggered. We got to move forward to do something better for ourselves, our nations. I'm interested now because our nation's got something to offer. Unions, which side is certainly not doing nothing for that country. But they got something

01:25:30.140 - 01:25:42.100

to offer. They got some beautiful music. Anybody with all that beautiful music, beautiful dances they got, they got something to offer. Now, like Nelson, like take, like the black rays. Now, if black leaders were really interested

01:25:42.100 - 01:25:57.460

in helping black people, they'd bring some of the beauty of the Indians, as very few Negroes of black people have seen the Indians dance. It's very few black people Negroes that have seen real Afghans bands. White people always seen it because

01:25:57.460 - 01:26:10.560

they bring it to their creators. This is very bad. Now you got some top Negro educators and preaching all that. They've never seen any beauty from other countries. They know nothing about culture. That's got to be correct. If you see what they

01:26:10.560 - 01:26:27.140

call culture, some rock and roll or some of that foolishness, which is the lighter side of life. They need that. But they hollering by black power, and power also means black responsibility. Responsibility means to negotiate and to deal

01:26:27.140 - 01:26:42.700

with other nations culturally. And how you going to do that, unless you know something about them, possibly have black power. But then they will have to negotiate with these other nations separately, and that they good of attitudes where

01:26:42.700 - 01:26:55.420

they really got white minds, and a lot of white people have never really been around these other nations, they got that superiority attitude. So if they will actually go and see these folks dance and All That Beauty, then they would see these folks

01:26:55.420 - 01:27:07.800

got something that I don't have, because I got some they don't have. I got some money, but they got some that I don't have, and they would recognize that these people contribute to humanity, except the white people put more value on the money than they put

01:27:07.800 - 01:27:24.620

in the Hans Werner have to change because the money can't help them. Now, that's right, don't happen when them Negroes get driving and watching next week meeting in Washington, like power. That's the funnest thing.

01:27:24.620 - 01:27:39.200

I heard the Black Power Leaders Meeting in Washington, DC next week. So they're not afraid to pick up the White House, and they have a perfect right to do so, because white people have set themselves up as rulers and leaders and laws and masters and

01:27:39.200 - 01:27:53.140

God. So they didn't ask. Now, why God? Do something save us, and the real body fear is sitting back and laughing at them, so they save you, because I got you in my clutches. Now that's what's got the American Negro at last, he's falling over

01:27:53.140 - 01:28:09.780

the van, says God, and the white man to be careful he don't fall over in there. She doesn't know too much about God. Fortunately, if I was him, I wouldn't be trying to find out too much. In fact, look at this to show you the winds of the time. I don't

01:28:09.780 - 01:28:29.540

know if you saw this. Kenneth said, suppose God is black. So it's we're moving into other suppositions, this is a milestone for why. If he had said this 10 years ago, he probably would have mentioned the white race for the nation,

01:28:29.780 - 01:28:45.760

but the white race watching a lot of strange things happening, things that they never dreamed would happen. And of course, the black race is looking at it too, but they see I need me a three pronged fault. I wake them up. I can really wake them up. I'm

01:28:45.760 - 01:28:59.260

interested in wake them up now, because I'm tired of disgracing that a lot of people are interested in them waking up too. Malcolm was in his way, yeah, even though, even he didn't agree on your music.

01:28:59.920 - 01:29:12.540

Well, he never really heard he was too busy, but he had. I can understand why he was too busy too because he had so much to do. So he's too busy doing nothing. Anytime you fail, you lose your

01:29:12.540 - 01:29:28.580

life. What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul? I do think he's gonna be religious. That's first lady. She traveled that way. You see it every day. Say to everybody else, lose yourself. Now, what did he do?

01:29:30.080 - 01:29:38.360

He changed the way a lot of people think. He changed the way they look at reality. They already knew the reality, yeah. But he could, in many cases, he could say it better, and he

01:29:38.360 - 01:29:47.260

could put it together better than, well, I would say he put it out there while white people could actually black people,

01:29:47.980 - 01:30:04.800

well, they didn't do anything about it. No, not, yeah, but I do say Weldon, I was dead. He did something. He didn't do anything for me, but I. Needed something. I needed a gig, and then give me that he's giving other people. Kees, why I

01:30:04.800 - 01:30:20.040

deserve a gig? Why should not play? I don't want to get into that. Well, I'm just saying that I haven't played any of the places like, like they always I played in Central

01:30:20.040 - 01:30:37.460

Park and they Reuben Phillips there. He played over in the mall, over in the show, and I played, I know they paid him. How you pay them $35 a piece or more? Weldon spot, promise to pay me 20. I haven't got it yet. That was a year or two ago. Now,

01:30:37.520 - 01:30:54.820

I made some persecution from black people. I played for black organization of Harvard called a CT, some kind of community, and at a school rehears for it, about three or four weeks, all I got out of that job was $20 and I took a big band up there so

01:30:54.820 - 01:31:05.160

they didn't pay me. What about that? Didn't you go on tour in a bunch of colleges? I went on to a bunch of 1000. I haven't got all my money from when I stole my money. He arranged. It seems, when

01:31:06.240 - 01:31:19.860

you need a lawyer, well, do you want to be my lawyer? I'm not a businessman either. He's a lawyer too, but I'm giving him a chance to know both. He can't talk so much liberals and how everybody mistreated everybody.

01:31:19.920 - 01:31:35.060

So I said, Well, I'll try you out, and there'll be dumb for nobody before. That's one thing BROOKE JOHNSON saying about me that I'm dealing with one now I'm dealing with Werner storm, and he owes me CEOs some money. Fact, I'm getting ready one of

01:31:35.060 - 01:31:51.160

my players going up and check on his books tomorrow. He hadn't told it properly the last time I had to get my checks from his mother because he was behind. And I went, talked about her and why people so bad. She got her checkbook and she wrote. So I

01:31:51.160 - 01:31:59.440

ring. It's me to go and talk about her. Do you ever call Darren Morton Davies tell him all this, or do you think he'd be interested? Well, every time I go up there, he isn't there. I went. I just

01:31:59.440 - 01:32:15.480

left there. He's in Boston last time, when he was in Chicago. But why did you call him? What I call him tomorrow. You ought to be back. But see the thing about it, say one thing so, like the planes, you have to travel by car and train, and that's going

01:32:15.480 - 01:32:30.140

up a schedule. He had his business to take care because when he was supposed to been back when I went to see him diamonds in Chicago, but that's when the strike came. On the strike, throwing a lot of things out, but Bernard still owes some

01:32:30.140 - 01:32:43.240

money, like to the New York Council, and that's what it is. So they came down, they added the books, and he says that we supposed to get the money this week. So actually, he's on the spot, because if he doesn't give me the money, rest of the money,

01:32:43.360 - 01:33:00.160

rest of the money, the council is gonna want to know, why good. So in this case, I'm sure we'll get paid, but I have to watch him on like royals and all that kind of stuff, to Atlantic. Atlantic, when I first came New York, I went talk to vertigo,

01:33:01.240 - 01:33:17.280

and he told me I didn't have anything that he didn't have that. But what did I have new? At least he expressed it like that, something like, Well, you have nothing that the drug musicians throw out. So why should I

01:33:17.820 - 01:33:31.280

require him again? Times he like, he had been in Chicago and heard us in person. That's why he told me, when I come to New York for seeing I did that. Now at the same time he came to New York, he brought

01:33:31.280 - 01:33:46.240

Norman Miller with him. Now the same time he heard us play, Norman Miller heard us play, and got on the air and said that what we were doing is the ultimate in music, the ultimate. And then he said he told he wrote an Esquire a year later

01:33:46.240 - 01:34:03.720

about he came to hear this music, and he had a bad cold. And after five minutes the music, it was all pent up, fears got over inside him and ran his coal away. And he said he swear now that's all talking about, like male heard the same thing

01:34:03.720 - 01:34:12.720

that this urban here. So it was, I began to think it was a sort of prejudice against me some kind of way. I don't know what it is, record company, yeah,

01:34:14.760 - 01:34:32.960

if I knew it not my Tara, I'm not forgetting to back me up. What about the people who put out the Saturn records. Well, actually, that's a research, I'd say, not a cult of anything. There's just a few people who saw what a hard drive

01:34:32.960 - 01:34:42.760

I was having in Chicago. Couldn't they do a mass distribution with those records instead of just making them, keeping the circulation so small? Well, they've had difficulty, because I was trying

01:34:42.760 - 01:34:55.000

to get them when they first put the record out. Of course, there's some controversial things on the back, like, wasn't exactly religious, but it was some equation on and I said, Well, don't put that out to the public. So the English wanted

01:34:55.000 - 01:35:09.120

it. And then when they said, Well, we, we don't. We want to restrict it sales. Not everybody. The English refused to Hans said, We want everybody here the music. So in that way, they held it up because of me, because I realized I felt given

01:35:09.120 - 01:35:22.700

to controversial Avenue and but strangely enough, a lot of people began to ask for these very records, to cut these things on the back of it. First grocery was asking for so then I told recently, well, we're going to deal with the people, since

01:35:22.700 - 01:35:35.660

they they're interested in this philosophy and other things. They're interested in it. Even some people from Italy wrote in me. He called me quite often and read letters to me that these people from all over the world, writing Argentina, how,

01:35:35.720 - 01:35:52.600

everywhere. So now he's beginning to get contact other countries, and that's a good sign. When the people get interested themselves for something new. That's the best sign that you can have. You already got your Weldon. That's

01:35:52.600 - 01:36:01.920

what I wanted. But all those records cut. It's a shame they can't be given the kind of distribution. Well, the records are put in the hands of distributor in Chicago,

01:36:01.920 - 01:36:12.480

a black distributor united, and they just let them sit on the ship. I've never seen them in any city. Well, this distributor, which is one of the biggest black distributor in

01:36:12.600 - 01:36:26.240

country, companies in the world, has had these records for at least six years, and they still sitting on that ship. They don't push them now, the same token, Abraham, that's the president of covenant, has been around, personally some Negro shops, and

01:36:26.240 - 01:36:38.840

they also refuse to handle the records. That's black folks and Negroes that did that. So that said that I've a tough opposition from Negroes and black folks, although all I've ever done was try to be their friend, to uplift them,

01:36:38.840 - 01:36:53.800

mentally, physically, spiritually. Still, they have been really fulfilling the power which says, man's enemies are, they of his own household. So since white people not in my household, I don't consider them as my enemies. According to the

01:36:53.800 - 01:37:06.540

Bible, the man's enemies are, there's his own household. That's black folks. I have to watch him. That's right, that they follow that too. That's what they they

01:37:06.540 - 01:37:21.380

never give on like they just give good power honor yesterday, because he's dead. Yeah, that's why they are. The black folks are good at doing that, honoring folks when they're dead. But I don't know too much about the whites. I'm a good around. I got

01:37:21.380 - 01:37:39.740

my hand full with black folks right now. I haven't got time to because they're so bad. Until they I can't even express it. You've done pretty good job so far. I'd say, Well, I hope they read it okay. I don't know how to get this all transcribed, but

01:37:39.740 - 01:37:40.220

if I do, you.