00:00:06.000 - 00:00:22.520

Unknown: Yeah, tell me anyhow. Oh, that right, yes. Okay, what do you think of the phrase a new black music as a description of some of the new tendencies in jazz? Should we answer one at a time? You can just and go ahead and talk like a panel, there is

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new black music, really, because there are groups which comprised of all black people who call themselves playing in black music. So therefore there is new

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black music. What about, what about a group like, which is, doesn't, which is not an all black group, exactly. It's not the new black music. How you interpret the new black music?

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No, when you say, what about a term like the new black music? I get pretty, pretty upset, because first of all, I don't contend that any of this music I don't like the New Black. No, I said that. The statement upsets me, because I don't contend that

00:01:02.760 - 00:01:22.220

this music is particularly music we're getting to particularly new. And in terms of black, again, it's a very old story of what is black and what isn't. And even though it's true that certain players black players, even standing in the same group

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on the sand, same stand with white players, such as in my group or an Archie's group. A lot of groups, they themselves might be playing black music and the white players might be playing black music in a white players way. I think that to

00:01:34.280 - 00:01:46.360

bring up terms like these is not necessary. And quite frankly, when you say, what do you think of the term new black music? I say, Where the hell did you get that from? Lew right Jones, as a matter of fact? Oh, well, I

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think that pretty much so. Not really. I think I think it has a certain accuracy. If you look at the music in a social sense, not that everybody playing it has to be black, but that the major innovations come out of a situation. Sure, the

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music comes out of what people feel and experience in their environments, not just be social and political overtones in it, but to make your your make your music or your art or your writing, as Leroy Jones does, mere political protest ruins the

00:02:15.840 - 00:02:34.520

art and dates. Dates terribly, because if you any music that's ever been created or any creative thing has come out of some kind of dissatisfaction of the status quo, you know. And a century later, the political tones you don't even know about

00:02:34.520 - 00:02:50.020

that's strictly for historians. It's the music must stand on its own. And of course, black players, because they experience certain things that white players don't experience, are going to have various different approaches, but other white

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players from other parts of the world, subject to other pressures, might have very similar approaches, albeit angry approaches, or so on and so forth, depending the way they're brought out.

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Don't you think 100 years from now, people play jazz, and the component of anger, or the component opposition to oppression, will still be evident from the recordings. Will the components of anger be

00:03:17.820 - 00:03:33.800

will, will, will is what is what Beethoven felt for Napoleon, evident in the America. Yeah, right. In other words, you saying, If we play today's records, 100 years from now, will those people sense? Yeah,

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that might be so, certainly. So So, especially in improvised but the nature of the nature of the black music needn't only be

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angry. For example, in Albert's music, which is definitely new, relatives, if you want to accept that, and definitely black, you want to accept that a lot of the sentiment and the satire and and the affection and the tenderness is present too. No,

00:04:01.020 - 00:04:11.520

I didn't mean to say anger exclusively. I just focused on that as one instance that whatever the emotional components are, they will be evident later on depending on how strong the player, right? Yeah. Well,

00:04:11.820 - 00:04:26.120

that goes with any art, if I might summarize, then you both agree that there are social and political components in works of art in general and jazz in particular, but these are not there's more to it than that. Yeah, of course, that's it's the

00:04:26.120 - 00:04:48.340

more that makes it hard, right? Have you ever noticed that reaction to your audience varies with the racial composition of the audience, and if so, how? In what direction do well, I think I've seen certain times like I've seen

00:04:48.340 - 00:05:08.820

Burton green down in slugs, for the primarily black audience, received extremely hostile reception, you know, to his new. Music that maybe somebody else playing. As far as lamb is concerned, a rather identical style of music wouldn't perceive

00:05:10.020 - 00:05:27.560

if you're a black music. I temporarily on most of my experience. Whenever I play with my group under my name. I never play in a club. I won't play in the corner, really, right? So I only play concerts. Now, I don't know again, that you can

00:05:27.560 - 00:05:43.960

generalize, but it turns out that if I'm doing a concert, for example, as I did one in Woodstock, there were the racial element was minimized. I really wasn't that sensitive to the proportion. It was maybe 5050, or 6040, more white. But it's

00:05:43.960 - 00:06:02.820

not the same as that same visual thing of 60% and 40 were in New York, say, at the bridge, because in Woodstock, there is more of a relaxed feeling and more of a mutual community acceptance, right? And I've never had trouble or discomfort

00:06:02.820 - 00:06:16.620

because of a black audience, and some extent, I feel better because I feel as though my music is more significantly received, and I feel a little bit more on trial. Perhaps, to some extent, I think I should.

00:06:17.880 - 00:06:37.580

I think the White musician before he plays with any black musicians. If he's not known in New York, like my experience was, there was certainly an element of like, missed trust and non acceptance before he played. But if you can play like

00:06:37.580 - 00:06:59.980

my group that I'm rehearsing for the recording, it's three white, three black, and everybody plays. And because the music is less of a folk music now, and more definitely a pure improvisational music and an art music, you absolutely can't tell

00:06:59.980 - 00:07:12.360

the difference between the players and the players. Don't even think of the differences the music is what is important. And amongst, amongst the musicians who really have their thing together mentally. I mean, mentally have their thing

00:07:12.420 - 00:07:26.780

together as well as their music thing. And that usually, too, goes hand in hand. You'll you'll find that there's an all out acceptance of each musician depending on whether he can plan whether he can't play anything. So much with a couple of

00:07:26.840 - 00:07:39.260

obviously, with certain exceptions, this is another thing which can really be very honest, right? If you're very if you're honest, and you work together musically, you really, even though at first, as Rick says, getting on

00:07:39.260 - 00:07:53.440

to the stand, hassle. Once you're on this band, it's fine. For example, Bill Nixon, who I studied with and work with, who has a lot of anti white things to say. When Rick and I worked with him, he was the only black player. And similarly, Archie,

00:07:53.440 - 00:08:05.880

for all he says, is open, because the essence is music, and this is where I really respect the attempt. Besides, Archie never said he hated white he hated a question, right? It's up to you whether you want to continue the

00:08:05.880 - 00:08:16.560

impression. There are, there are some players who feel like I'm from England, and I don't. I didn't come over here with any particular preconceived Hans, and I'm not bent on developing

00:08:16.560 - 00:08:29.180

any hang ups now I'm over here, so I'm not exactly humble or self conscious about the fact that I'm playing improvised music. You know, my my own music, and some people expect the humility. Well, the humility is there, but only as a

00:08:29.180 - 00:08:42.280

musician, not as a human being. And I'm no more humble than anybody else as a human being. I think it is ridiculous to expect a person because he's wanting to play music, and he happens to be white, to expect him to be humble as as a human being,

00:08:42.280 - 00:08:54.460

that's entirely up to him and his own personality, but he always approaches the music with his own strength and his own humility, because that's the way he feels about music anyway. Do you think? Do you

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think that whites playing what has been up till now, largely a black originated music? Do you think whites have to make certain adjustments in their thinking they have been that's why a lot of white music

00:09:04.440 - 00:09:18.840

hasn't been coming out as strongly, because they've been feeling they've been feeling like, may I play play with you. They've been feeling very self conscious, and maybe because of, like, middle class backgrounds, very guilty in their own

00:09:18.840 - 00:09:30.680

personalities. They haven't got their own mind together, and therefore it's come out in their music, and that they can't feel as self assured, and their music isn't as strong. Because the thing is, you must, you must know exactly where you're at,

00:09:30.680 - 00:09:40.460

and then your music will be be strong, whatever it is, because tis only improvised. Music is improvised. That seems to me, the consensus among black musicians, too, on the subject of white musicians, is that they

00:09:40.460 - 00:09:59.920

can make it on their own feet, then there's room for them. Well, I'm still very confused about it. Frank, quite, quite honestly, I think that's so, but I don't think I feel that that's so yet, because I've had a few incidents now, now about a year.

00:10:00.000 - 00:10:13.500

Later, approximately a year later, the year runs in parallels. Last year, I was relatively unknown, now growing and about last year, last spring, I did a concert. I was a very humble place. It was a humble group. A lot of these

00:10:13.500 - 00:10:25.580

cats had left the scene since then, and Giuseppe Logan came in. And I didn't know Giuseppe. I just heard about him. And Giuseppe is a reed player. And at the time I was playing regular trumpets. Before I played pocket trumpet, Giuseppe

00:10:25.580 - 00:10:37.160

Logan actually was another bass player who went out and got him and came back in. And this was around the time when the Black Arts Theater was very active. And this other bass player who had come in from Chicago and has since gone, was very active in

00:10:37.160 - 00:10:51.280

the Black Arts Theater. Giuseppe took out a pocket trumpet and began to play in the middle of my concert. It was a relatively informal concert. Wasn't on the stage, it was all in one room, so it was sort of a session, and I, at that time, didn't have the

00:10:51.280 - 00:11:03.360

conviction or the feeling that I had a right to stop him, or a right to talk to him, or right to say, you play now and don't play later. Now. Since then, a few weeks later, I was studying with Bill, and Bill said that, you know, any cat that takes out

00:11:03.360 - 00:11:17.820

his horn in your concert should be told? Well, a year later, this is about a month and a half ago, Giuseppe was walking down the street, and I didn't even recognize him. He said, Hey, man, I've been looking for you. I want to hear those tapes. I

00:11:17.820 - 00:11:32.060

have it on tape, and apparently he was relatively sincere about it. I still don't know, and a lot of little incidents have happened, nothing too direct that could go either way, so I don't know what you know, I just have to, I don't have to make a

00:11:32.060 - 00:11:41.140

judgment. I just keep playing, and whoever wants to accept me as well, whoever doesn't, doesn't, until they break my arm or do something over it's very funny rodeo septic, because he's one of the most

00:11:41.200 - 00:11:54.460

apolitical of the musicians that I've talked to. He had very little say on any of these questions. Well, I mean, there are some musicians. Look, there are some black musicians who didn't matter what you do, would never

00:11:54.460 - 00:12:09.660

accept you as a person, never mind accepting your music. But conversely, it must be said that there are some white players to my absolute amazement over here, who, like, don't recognize the black musician in jazz whatsoever. I mean, it's crazy.

00:12:10.380 - 00:12:29.600

They say that, you know, it's European music and stuff, and the European influence is all important, which, of course, is, is nonsense too. I mean, you meet nuts in any see my with a child like political ideas, you want

00:12:29.600 - 00:12:45.700

to see racism really a workplace. Musicians from out of town, non New York, musicians have been here, like one or two years. I've mentioned quite a few, and they seem to be much, much, much more militant. The musicians

00:12:45.700 - 00:13:02.520

who've lived in New York pay the dues worked with all kinds of musicians. New York is a place, you know, where, honestly, basically, once you really start getting around, really counts to New York people, Cecil Tara, he'll accept Cecil, you know, is

00:13:02.940 - 00:13:15.840

a very good friend of mine, he's just a beautiful person. He's one of the most intelligent people on the scene, and yet, he has a lot to say about white people. Well, just what the point of what I said before was that I

00:13:15.840 - 00:13:30.560

can't even say, from my experience on the scene, I've heard about and I've seen angry looks, but I can't really say that. I've ever had a black cat not willing to converse with me or engage with me. I can't really say that. And you know,

00:13:30.560 - 00:13:47.440

that's another thing. I hope the cats who I consider really black musicians are not so much these cats, but cats who are very warm and friendly and engaging, who come out to UCSC, Morton banks, like Kenny Durham cats, who are very strong Bob players, who are

00:13:47.440 - 00:13:58.540

very open. And the racial issue, they don't even see catches migration. Well, they do see it, yeah, yeah, but it's not an issue, and it's one kind of issue between between

00:13:59.440 - 00:14:07.860

individuals at all, for some of them because they're totally apolitical. Yeah, well, I don't think it's possible for somebody to be completely apolitical. Any

00:14:07.860 - 00:14:23.240

intelligent person is aware of what's going down in this country as much as possible. Well, I've had interviews with people Dodie Charles, yeah, Don I won't say that political, just things annoy him and he doesn't like

00:14:28.280 - 00:14:45.220

to talk about I think it's very good and very important for a musician to go and live in in Europe and and see, see how Another side of the Weldon live. But in Europe, funnily enough, I like the way

00:14:45.220 - 00:14:59.080

New York handles its racial problems in certain respects much better than the way I like London or Paris, because everything's swept underneath the rug. In London and Paris, you don't actually see any race riots. You don't see people

00:14:59.080 - 00:15:14.040

actually. Are coming out and screaming epithets. For simple reason, the law is extremely strong on it, but there is still underneath very basic hostility. So any time, many types of integration against, not only that, against Jewish people and

00:15:14.040 - 00:15:26.960

very much against Irish people. For instance, in England, huge block against Irish people, that much more so than against Jamaicans or Pakistanis. So it's the Irish and English who really have loggerheads in England over here, it's the Negro and the

00:15:26.960 - 00:15:45.160

white Irish and the English too. That the Irish are the most put down. Kees people, people, they really have a bad time. Well, it's, it's still there I was born, and go around

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and pause, and I had to have, like, fight my way out of every Friday and Saturday night. That really is more more, yes, well, it's about exactly the same age as

00:16:01.980 - 00:16:15.120

possibility, and it's an interesting comparison. England is meant to be a much more together country, sophisticated, but all that sophistication is done is to close everything and swept it under the rug. At least here, everything is explosive,

00:16:15.120 - 00:16:27.140

and it might be realized in a much warmer way. When I came to New York, I didn't expect to see people on the street conversing, from what I've heard, I expected everybody to walk around very separately, but I see a lot of genuine warmth just between

00:16:27.140 - 00:16:43.840

ordinary people all over the place, you know, like in many different directions, in the subway or and I never expected that. And it's much warmer country than England, England, so So does Paris really screwed up? Bud Powell and a lot of

00:16:45.100 - 00:17:06.180

other positions I want to get on to the next question, and this concerns Malcolm X who, according to his autobiography, was a lover of jazz and a minimum of many leading jazz musicians of that day an earlier day. Do you think that there's

00:17:06.180 - 00:17:15.960

any significance here in particular? Do you think there's any connection between what Malcolm stood for and some present current in jazz, as some musicians have argued? Well, it's

00:17:15.960 - 00:17:33.920

possible that a lot of things have been, as Rick said, more dramatically and emphatically and overtly, stated especially and perhaps precipitated by Malcolm's death. And you get a lot of feeling that I know I saw Malcolm, and I was near Malcolm,

00:17:33.920 - 00:17:49.000

and I was several times, and I was very touched and upset by his death myself. And there's a general spirit of, let's not make his death insignificant. Let's make it significant. And I'm for that spirit too.

00:17:50.620 - 00:18:01.140

Would you ever dedicate a composition to him? Absolutely, but I don't. Now, that's an interesting question, I feel, and this is covers a lot of things that should come out now, I guess I feel I'd like to dedicate a

00:18:01.140 - 00:18:11.700

composition to him, but I don't think I want to dare dedicate a composition to him, because my right to do it might be questioned. It might be my own hang up, I don't know. Well, let me give you an example, an instance from my own background.

00:18:11.700 - 00:18:24.500

I'm reviewing two Malcolm X books for monthly review in the September issue, and I'm drawing certain conclusions. And I think whatever my lack of right to do this must be the same as your lack of the thing is, if you have something to say about

00:18:24.500 - 00:18:35.840

Malcolm, and what you have to say is genuine, and it isn't put down, but actually a valid appreciation of the man in those times, I wouldn't be held back from expressing it. I think you're wrong. Look, if

00:18:36.260 - 00:18:49.240

don't have the right I said I don't know if I do this whole issue is the people not not being strong enough in your approach to things, you have definite opinions on Malcolm X and his

00:18:49.240 - 00:19:01.920

death, just as a negro has a definite opinion on President Johnson and his like semi dictatorship policies like going now and to say that the Negro wouldn't have a right to criticize President Johnson or to mourn President Kennedy's

00:19:01.920 - 00:19:16.440

death. To draw a parallel is ridiculous, because that's what you're trying. That's what many people working and trying to have the Negro to say an absolutely equal right to say these things as strongly as he feels like saying them. And if

00:19:16.440 - 00:19:28.400

you whatever you felt about Malcolm X, you have an absolute right to say very strongly. Well, I think things must work in it. I mean, there's two sides to every single question. There's two sides, but things don't work so much now to lose

00:19:28.400 - 00:19:41.260

like, what I feel about Malcolm X or you or anybody isn't crystallized and readily verbal or readily knowable to the extent that I feel it. I'd like to, you know, dedicate something, but I don't feel, I feel that musically, it's very

00:19:41.260 - 00:19:52.660

important musically for all the other things I do, for all my work. I work as a research psychologist, and all that that's all half hearted, I can smile. Put on the botany 502 and everything when I dedicated composition musically, or when I

00:19:52.660 - 00:20:06.000

write a note on paper, as I'm doing now for ensemble, I've got to do a complete conviction, or else it doesn't deserve to be on the right now. Now the thing is, maybe I'm saying is I don't know that. I really and it's not a logical thing. It's an intuitive

00:20:06.000 - 00:20:19.980

thing. It's a biochemical thing. Maybe I really don't feel inside that I can write it down. Now, I recently wrote a tune called the space between brothers for Sun Ra, which involves the celestial thing, I think, discusses with you and the racial thing. That's

00:20:19.980 - 00:20:37.040

what the space between brothers and it's very interesting how I conceived it. You know why? In the tune, in my group, three players are black and I'm white. And in the tune, in the tune, I play tambourine for most of the tune, and acoustic box, and the

00:20:37.100 - 00:20:49.240

cello and the bass lay down the mode, and just a certain section, I play home, and I go back to these percussionists. Now, do you see what? I just realized, what I've done, I've sort of taken a background step for Sun Ra's tomb, which shows

00:20:49.240 - 00:21:01.560

my now, I'm not saying it's my weakness. I don't believe it's my weakness, but it shows my confusion. And I'm approaching the issue sheepish Linley, because I want to be careful and I don't want to hurt anybody, and it's made I maybe got to

00:21:01.560 - 00:21:11.100

learn a few more things about this, but I really don't want to. That's why I don't go to slugs. That's why I don't go to concerts all the time. Because when you walk into slugs, especially with a horn under your arm, you're saying I'm a

00:21:11.100 - 00:21:20.900

new cat on the scene. And in some sense, I don't want to say it that way. All of my musicians, you know, do admire Malcolm, and I wonder if they all have the same trepidation. I mean, all the

00:21:20.900 - 00:21:34.520

ones I've talked to, David Eisen, Roswell, Frank Smith, things of people with any intelligence at all about the social scene. Malcolm was really charismatic leader in the last people's hero. So when you get get together, what you really do

00:21:34.520 - 00:21:45.520

feel about him. I would not be so hesitant about expressing because what Malcolm was saying at the end was, there's going to be a confrontation between the oppressed and the oppressor, not between white and the black. And the way I look at it, when you

00:21:45.520 - 00:21:58.660

listen to definitely on the side of the oppressed, both because of their art and because they are, most cases being Is there any other public figure that strikes you with the same intensity as Malcolm, to whom you would think about dedicating

00:21:59.560 - 00:22:14.520

peace needn't be an American leader, any musical figure. Eric dole, okay, beautiful man, had his mind together. Had his music together. It showed it showed him this music. Because he

00:22:14.520 - 00:22:29.000

hasn't got, like, just one corner of the music. He had the whole thing. Like, there's an awful lot of players on the scene right now, what they're doing is interesting. Maybe it's new. It's very vital within its sphere, but it's like one corner

00:22:29.000 - 00:22:44.140

of the whole scope, like the world was enormous. The possibilities for playing are, like, huge, absolutely huge. And there's too many players on the scene always have been to me, who are entirely stylized, they get hold of one idea. It's

00:22:44.140 - 00:22:59.080

stylized. They play it strongly, ferociously, whatever it happens to be very coolly, as in West Coast, Tara and so on and so forth. And it's just like one corner Eric Dodie, like, ran the whole gamut as a human being and as a musician, like everything

00:22:59.080 - 00:23:15.900

was in his control, his mind, and he was a fantastic example to younger musicians like I've met so many younger musicians who are influenced by him more than any other musician at all by having technical control of your mind and your spirit and

00:23:15.900 - 00:23:31.880

your musical intensity and everything else more even by train, It seems to me, the trains influence is the most ubiquitous among saxophonists. I don't know. I don't I. I'm talking about all the very

00:23:31.940 - 00:23:41.440

younger generation of players. I'm finding a huge Eric Dodie influence. I know. I know what Rick is saying. Eric was a very total player, and especially in these times where we realize maybe

00:23:41.440 - 00:23:51.820

this, I don't know that this is just a white characteristic. I know I realized that to be very together, I've got to be very together. You know, that's why I studied changes with Steve Kees and Brahms technique with another cat, mcplay in a studio

00:23:51.820 - 00:24:06.840

band once a week and all this. And I think getting back to your question of public figure, Eric was certainly one, and Booker was certainly one. Book a little and naturally, you can name giants, and I don't know that I have to. I'm sure Clifford Brown

00:24:06.840 - 00:24:17.520

and bird, who I still think was one of the strongest players. And if you want to talk about three, one of the freest players, even though he made every change and every beat, but to speak of one player. And again, I know this name always

00:24:17.520 - 00:24:31.760

comes up, and I always bring it up, and I've written a couple of articles. Of Weldon, I still feel and I've dedicated pieces, and I think all my music is dedicated to him. Bill Nixon has, in many respects, for all his problems of being stubborn

00:24:31.760 - 00:24:47.200

and so forth and bullheaded and so forth, has, in many respects, when it comes down to the music, a lot of people put him down because he doesn't swing or so forth played and continues to play and continues to write what the other cats evade. Just as

00:24:47.200 - 00:24:59.920

many cats are afraid to play long tones in the shed they're frequently bill will carry Unison lines for bars and bars, and he's aware of the fact that if you listen to Unison line, or even if you're not a very technical listener, you'll.

00:25:00.000 - 00:25:14.520

Actually hear groupings of Ohta clusters, and he's a thing. Bill is a meticulous craftsman. I noticed that just in talking to him, and he's a very sensitive cat. And one reason why, in some respects, a comparison between Bill and Miles is very

00:25:14.520 - 00:25:27.380

interesting, because they were both very tight. They used to play duets together. They were approximately the same age when I first confronted Bill Dixon, I was studying psychology, and I got a Savoy record the artist, only because my friend worked in

00:25:27.380 - 00:25:40.300

the factory and wanted to show me get records cheap. And this was the this sound reminded me a bit of miles and a lot of me. And though I studied with all kinds of technical caps, from the pivot system to the Philharmonic, his whole

00:25:40.300 - 00:25:58.780

approach, straight in my playing, and the fact that he's so sensitive, and the fact that he reacts so totally, that's why, if bill gets angry, he can't be diplomatic. He's articulate, he's brilliant, but he can't be diplomatic because

00:25:59.200 - 00:26:10.500

the ideals are throughout the man's system, and when you have something that's rattling that system, you got to throw that diplomacy out the window and say with that. But Hans and too much emphasis is based on courtesy. One of the

00:26:10.500 - 00:26:22.940

things I love about New York is, if it's the rudest city, that's what you were saying before. So rudest city in the world, there's no surface courtesy. What do you want? Where do you want to go to? It's down there. There's no surface courtesy, but

00:26:22.940 - 00:26:37.820

that's beautiful. You know, I'm sick of surface courtesy. You know, little more honesty around the place. You know, bit more shit flying is beautiful. Cecil, right? My thing, you know, Cecil's had, like, enormous impact on my mind. Anybody else

00:26:37.820 - 00:26:52.900

who comes in contact with him, too, he's the most fantastic. He has his mind together Absolutely. And you'll say something one month and you'll say, okay, yeah, well, you think about that some more, three months later, you will have

00:26:52.900 - 00:27:05.100

changed your mind. He says, Now, you know, you changed your mind. See what, see what went down in the last three months because you changed your mind, you know? And I thought you'd get into that. Now think about that some more. And he had a fantastic

00:27:05.100 - 00:27:17.340

influence. His influence, enormous amount of players, not just musically, by his mind, genius, brilliant mind. That's your point should be made, because to be rude is one thing, but to be patient and hear a cat out, which Cecil does

00:27:17.340 - 00:27:28.400

and bill does is, is the mature compliment, and that's what these cats do. Very similar in that respect. Although their individuality, if they feel that, if they feel that you're intelligent, they

00:27:28.400 - 00:27:39.500

know that finally, if you're an intelligent person, and you're aware and you're trying, that eventually you're going to get to the point without them having to beat you over the head. I felt that too, you know. And the point

00:27:39.500 - 00:27:51.400

will be much better made for that fact. So speaking of white man's burden in jazz, or the black man's burden in jazz, if you guys could expect to be ill received, then I could be expected to be twice as Ill

00:27:51.400 - 00:28:02.940

received, because I'm not even a musician. I'm really doubly an outsider. And yet I haven't found this at all, except with one or two people who were definitely reluctant at best, I kind of with one music in particular. There was a Dennis,

00:28:02.940 - 00:28:15.480

all for the most part. Normally, you see, simple, I think I established my sincerity. Maybe they were thinking I could do something. So reasons for that is one, that you're sincere. The other reason

00:28:15.480 - 00:28:26.120

is, let's face it, critics. Critics have a power. Any any work, instead of said about a musician is very it's not the critics haven't have a power. Well, the leaders of critics,

00:28:26.540 - 00:28:38.840

they have more power over the musicians. In some cases. Frank, you and I were talking about this, the fact that I was a little upset with Bill Nixon for getting upset over Dan Morton, the power, I think, is in that case.

00:28:38.840 - 00:28:49.300

But it's not to be turned around. It's a social it's a marketable power of an effective career. It's put Bill Nixon out. I'll tell you, maybe it's combinational story. But Bill, I think, would say this. He probably did that. He's used to

00:28:49.300 - 00:29:02.160

getting a little bit of money every year. He told me, this is been for years, and as a consequence there, Morton Cruz is very involved with these people. And I wouldn't, I don't think those being super paranoid that contract wasn't renewed

00:29:02.220 - 00:29:13.920

this year shortly after Morgan Stanton's bad review. In some cases, for example, when Morton stern controls who gets booked into the Metropolitan Museum summer concert, there's clearly a case where a critic does have

00:29:13.920 - 00:29:24.980

power. But I mean the written word is, I think, relatively powerless in jazz, and the reason I think so ultimately, the time it can put put a man through years of bad changes before he gets where he could have

00:29:25.400 - 00:29:42.400

maybe got, maybe not musically, but logically, to be put down in print. Three things out, as I found them so far. For example, Coltrane was the butt of all, a great wave of hostility in 6162

00:29:43.060 - 00:29:56.440

anti jazz and all that. And yet this really didn't affect, I don't think the market, the man, exactly, yes, I will say that the cause to him a tremendous

00:29:56.440 - 00:30:09.300

amount of insecurity. Because I can't be that certain. But certainly the. Security that he was having time due to some other circumstances, musical and otherwise, were aggravated by the you see, what right Has anybody got to try and destroy

00:30:09.300 - 00:30:22.040

another person as a human being? If they don't like it, they shouldn't write about, I agree. They should only write about something they can be constructive about. If you react to Albert's music or Coltrane's music and you react violently

00:30:22.040 - 00:30:31.580

anti you shouldn't be starting to write about it, because it's not going to be a constructive thing. Anything must be constructed. Except, for example, when you're dealing with something that's

00:30:31.580 - 00:30:47.500

trying to cliche, you don't have to be so hesitant about saying even, even, know, even, I agree that not every record should be reviewed. Records are even Ramsey Lewis. Look, the mere fact of the matter is that

00:30:47.560 - 00:31:01.020

an awful lot of people like Ramsey Lewis is music, and he fulfills a function, and he brings a healthier kind of media, a lot of good, open, swinging thing that people take whether he clumsy

00:31:01.080 - 00:31:18.240

finger doesn't even matter. He's not playing bullshit music. What he's playing is semi rhythm. You know, if he called himself a rhythm and blues player, nobody put him down at all. But he does also, I believe the man suffers from arthritis, and that's one

00:31:18.240 - 00:31:27.080

of the reasons, of course, Hitler, very, very bad. Well, Horace fallen doesn't seem to be bothered.

00:31:27.080 - 00:31:37.640

Well, we're saying people can overcome obstacles. Now, let me finish with the critics. I think one other point. So first of all, that kind of criticism could do an immense psychological harm. I think it may have had something to do

00:31:37.820 - 00:31:50.920

with Eric's case too, although that's mere speculation on my part, before you get off briefly in the case of Ornette, where there was criticism around 5960 I can't help thinking that to some extent, this whole stirring up caused him a lot of new

00:31:50.920 - 00:32:02.640

interest and did, in some sense, ultimately work in his favor. Not so with Coltrane, but it did help on it, but that's a real nice lady. I don't think. In the case of Morton Stroud controlling the

00:32:02.640 - 00:32:17.640

jazz bookings in the garden, that's relatively unusual in that usually, ordinarily, the critic doesn't have that much direct leverage over a musician's fate. And I really don't think you see, if it were true that what a critic says

00:32:18.360 - 00:32:31.700

influence the public, then this practice of hiring guys to write letter notes for albums would be a sound, economic one, because if critic x were well known and famous, then his name on the back of the record could be, could constitute an endorsement.

00:32:31.700 - 00:32:42.160

And yet, I think the record buyer is much shorter than that. He may see Leonard feathers name on it, but he knows he's Leonard feathers name on about 50 different albums, and of those 50 different albums, 25 of them are probably worthless, or

00:32:42.160 - 00:32:53.200

closer worthless or not, not as good as the album was believed. So that I think that whatever critic says tends to be discounted. Also, there's a tremendous individualism the jazz audience, wherever anybody feels he could be a critic, and

00:32:53.200 - 00:33:07.980

in most cases, probably is right, because most of the critics are inept. Anyhow, I'm technically Yeah, I call myself a writer if critics manage to just keep out of personalities and just try to be as completely constructive as

00:33:07.980 - 00:33:21.420

possible, then that, then they might, you know, have a valid function, you know, but that's but they can't, you know, critic I can name who manages to keep out of personalities. Well, for one thing,

00:33:21.420 - 00:33:30.440

most of the critics are musically proficient, and they're not at home in the new music, especially so they have personalities for what they can deal in, because this is what they know they don't

00:33:31.280 - 00:33:43.060

then they should stop dabbling in the new music. Definitely, my feeling is that at best, a critic can serve as an intermediate between the artist and the community, but not to advise the artist on how to

00:33:43.060 - 00:33:54.820

construct because the artist knows more about it than he does, if the artist is any good at all, unless you've got George Bernard Shaw. But who, in present day jazz criticism, or any jazz criticism, has ever been George Bernard Shaw, that

00:33:54.820 - 00:34:10.140

is a practicing critic as well as a, I mean, practicing artist as well as a critic different Tara, he's been said jazz is a music opposed to poverty, suffering and oppression, and therefore is also opposed to what the United States is doing

00:34:10.140 - 00:34:23.960

in Vietnam. Would be Kees to discuss that question, that issue you can separate them, that you have. Well, as someone who you see, I have a massive I'm finishing a master's degree in psychology, and I think all the jobs that

00:34:23.960 - 00:34:37.160

require masters could have an impressive resume. And I was training to be a head shrinker. So I've been involved with three or four anti poverty programs already. I'm involved with one right now called Summer in the City. I'm director of it, and I

00:34:37.160 - 00:34:57.280

live in what's called the poverty area for the last three years, and I don't know that jazz is an anti poverty or anti oppressed music, per se as a jazz player. And I think that I'm I can only speak as jazz players. Of me, I wouldn't even

00:34:57.280 - 00:35:11.760

talk about my drummer, what goes on in his mind when he plays. We don't have to talk about this. I know what happens. But as a jazz player and I'm I don't know that I represent, consciously, a financial oppression. I represent an oppression

00:35:11.760 - 00:35:24.320

certainly, and I feel an oppression day by day for lots of reasons, but I don't know that it's financial regarding the war. It's very interesting. You should ask this, because I was with someone who also has a background like mine in

00:35:24.320 - 00:35:36.380

psychology and has worked with such things, and is a picket type and a marcher. I've never been that type. And he said he couldn't, can't understand why artists, the spokesman of humanity, aren't more actively involved with this business in

00:35:36.380 - 00:35:55.480

the war, I feel, with regard to the war or anything involving an anti humane move like killing, I feel it very immediately, not politically so much, although conscious I read the papers, not socially so much, but by virtue of the immediate, I always, I'm

00:35:55.480 - 00:36:08.580

always conceiving in terms of the media of the immediate fact of killing. And then I realize that also Johnson has one hell of a nerve doing what he's doing. But with regard your question, I don't know that I wouldn't feel this if I, if I

00:36:08.580 - 00:36:20.960

wouldn't feel it's Were I not a musician, or were I something else? I think this is a personal thing and an individual thing. I'm not conscious of my music, the Sony, the Sony things you know, when I play, one thinks

00:36:20.960 - 00:36:36.680

about not just, not just a Vietnam No, any problem. Of course, you think about them every day. But when you the only sense that my music, anyway is anti poverty, is that I'm trying to make music as beautiful as possible. I'm trying to create

00:36:36.680 - 00:36:51.760

beauty. I'm trying to surround myself with with beauty, beauty and sound that's that's all, that's all, and anything else I'm thinking, obviously will come out of my music. But I'm interested in pure sound and beauty, you know, and intensity

00:36:51.760 - 00:37:02.940

in life, you know. And that's, in that sense, it sounds like publicity, because my mind is trying to go about any of that garbage. Well, in a historical sense, don't you think that there has been this anti

00:37:03.960 - 00:37:17.460

musicians are always more aware, okay, more aware. They have much more Yeah, they come out of circumstances. The true artist is just hasn't got the time, no, all the

00:37:17.460 - 00:37:29.060

energy, right? I'm not saying that you should. I just want to know if you think that this humanitarian impulse that I see as historically present in the music is still there and maybe even stronger in the new music,

00:37:29.060 - 00:37:35.960

because new musicians are, in many cases, more politically aware, even though they're not Marcus, but then they shouldn't be marchers. If they were marchers, they wouldn't have time to

00:37:35.960 - 00:37:48.040

do musicians. I think that with a stronger technology, and you've got to this technology is stronger today than it was six months ago, and six months ago. And six months from now, it will be you have stronger awareness, you have stronger dehumidation,

00:37:48.100 - 00:38:04.320

dehumanization around you, which gets you madder. And to this extent, I think the nature of the strength in any new music is going to be more metallic, going to be more like it has been. It's going to be more of a reaction to machines and as I

00:38:04.320 - 00:38:17.400

say, dehumanization, the whole science of psychology, which is my other field, is just an institution which was an artifact, which was built because the culture got guilty and funny and didn't know who what its identity was. They made

00:38:17.400 - 00:38:26.420

this little set of excuses called the science of psychology, which is only about 150 years old, and it began 10 years old, and it began 10 years after technology began.

00:38:27.920 - 00:38:41.080

I've never seen such a sexually hung up country riding around Kees shirts and Dodie ourselves, but, but, you know, sexually, sexually deficient people Gulch ridden hung up people and like the only

00:38:41.080 - 00:38:58.540

breed of people who really go nap and know what it's all about. I like the musicians who just stand up and play motherfucker and artists, but this whole like camp fucked up, you know, bit that people are going into now, it's insane. I

00:38:58.540 - 00:39:12.300

see it like castrated males and females walking around everywhere young kids doesn't matter what it is, because they have nothing socially. This is a country that has created no future for its young people, and so therefore,

00:39:12.300 - 00:39:21.740

thanks to it, when you're 18 years old, what do you do? You can't you or no tradition. And this is what's beautiful. I hate to generalize. I hate to say one generation is different than

00:39:21.740 - 00:39:35.900

another, and the gene and Yang just as it isn't, that's how it is, and just as it is, that's how it isn't the new generation with the hair over the years and the wire glasses and so forth, and the psychedelic teenagers, the psychedelic sweethearts.

00:39:36.380 - 00:39:46.360

This is they're interesting kids. A lot of these kids, I don't want to get too involved with discussion of drugs or psychedelic experience or anything like or anything like that. In fact, quite honestly, I don't even think much more about

00:39:46.360 - 00:40:04.200

that than I do politics. I just don't think that that's my answer. Music is my answer. But you can see why in as I said, these technological times and inhuman times, people try. Trying to get into the more traditional sense of loveliness,

00:40:04.200 - 00:40:16.680

the more traditional sense of fantasy, sensually through the so called, so called Conscious expanding drug. And the so called they're trying to do that without eroticism, without any

00:40:16.680 - 00:40:33.800

eroticism at all, right, like nobody really gets drunk or anything. They get terribly high and cool. It becomes a manufactured eroticism. Rick, it becomes a new type, yeah.

00:40:41.000 - 00:40:52.660

But there is no, there is no actual physical neuroticism, because people are frightened when they hear musicians play. It sure, because the humanization of technology, this has been, if

00:40:52.660 - 00:41:03.360

you look at the early history of the working class country, is the best example of this. People used not to get up at six o'clock in the morning if they didn't want to go in. They didn't go in. Tremendous problems making and regimenting

00:41:03.360 - 00:41:16.380

people to machines. Well, 20 years later, we succeeded. One quickie on the subject, do musicians talk among themselves about social issues? Are they interested in these things? Granted that they don't have time to become activists, but

00:41:16.380 - 00:41:32.180

are they? Do they have an interest in Vietnam? They have an interest in black national No, they talk more immediately. I think they talk. They're more concerned with immediacy.

00:41:32.180 - 00:41:43.420

Always, 100% of the time, they never tell me because, because that's what it's about. The things that immediately affecting you are exactly the same things that are that are happening 3000 miles away, like

00:41:43.420 - 00:41:56.620

this killing on the goddamn streets every day in New York. Everybody knows it. We all know it. Like in music, you don't turn around and evaluate the solo the other person just played. There's there's no room for this, this sort of talking.

00:41:56.620 - 00:42:05.400

Everybody knows where you're at, everybody knows what you're playing. Everybody knows where Johnson's at or whether everything else. So then there is an awareness of it. It

00:42:05.400 - 00:42:20.780

just isn't Tara awareness. Well, yeah, I would pretty much agree with Rick in terms of talking among themselves. Again, you express through your medium, as Rick says, among musicians, I don't find this comes up too

00:42:20.780 - 00:42:32.720

much, although we almost started to before, because for a minute, we were getting into a grosser role, I know, in my particular, my individual life, and again, I only speak of that I'm involved, besides with music, to some extent, you know, with the

00:42:32.720 - 00:42:48.640

research laboratory, to some extent, occasionally I go to a graduate course or something. I travel in other social circles as well. And I find that I need or I end up doing it, but I feel most relaxed and most honest and most valid with music, rather

00:42:48.640 - 00:43:03.240

than this other thing. As I said, right? If I ever talk about it, I talk with other people, other than people I feel don't understand it a musician well, they don't have me really into it. I feel understands all these things,

00:43:03.240 - 00:43:16.740

because it's reflected in his music, and I can hear it that plainly. If I meet somebody on the street or in the store where I'm having to work, the reason I feel I have to say these things or get into any kind of thing is because it's the only reason you

00:43:16.740 - 00:43:27.860

ever communicate with somebody. You communicate with somebody at length when you feel they don't understand. You have to not when you feel they do understand. When somebody understands you perfectly. And you understand somebody perfectly, you sit with

00:43:27.860 - 00:43:40.660

them in silence for an hour. I hit painter also doesn't have to be told these things, okay? Or I hit psychoanalyst, someone who is just into his thing, a man of conviction in his thing. Frequently these things don't

00:43:40.660 - 00:43:53.320

have to matter. It isn't that you're not interested in these questions. It is just that you don't feel the need to verbalize them among yourself, because there is a concern for the inclinations never

00:43:53.320 - 00:43:59.560

occurring. You all agree on what's happening where everything is now more and more important. I don't know. What do we talk about? We talk

00:43:59.560 - 00:44:13.560

about money. Family says that these are questions that don't interest musician the Vietnam and then, okay, because he's never understood, that's an absurdity. We can categorize it. We don't even run him all. President John

00:44:14.280 - 00:44:25.220

analyzed on a smaller level, what do you think about working conditions? And do you think that there's any differential in working conditions for white jazz musicians? These are the black jazz

00:44:27.680 - 00:44:42.460

well, all pretty shitty. It's just a level of comparative shittiness. Dave Brubeck made the college circuit wherever. Very few other people could have made the college circuit at the time. And the cover of Time, I don't know whether it's

00:44:42.460 - 00:45:01.200

awareness. I think it's purely out of a Gulch complex and a sense of happiness that other colleges are now employing very, you know, new groups, very black groups, like Harvard and Yale, employing these, these groups, because, you know. And they've

00:45:01.200 - 00:45:15.120

heard so much about the rubric and what happened, and they feel like very guilty about this. Now it's coming in, but it's all phony. Whoever employs you really, really is utterly phony. Conditions are bad. Obviously, white players if they're setting

00:45:15.120 - 00:45:27.260

out to play commercial music, get far better breaks if they're playing jazz music, and most, more often than not, an integrated group, they get no better working conditions than anybody else, and no more breaks. In fact, sometimes

00:45:27.260 - 00:45:36.020

exactly the opposite, because they're not black and they're trying to play this new music. They get less breaks because their music isn't the girl says that they have more economic opportunities if

00:45:36.020 - 00:45:45.700

they're playing more more commercial. He said, Well, if they can find they can find careers other than jazz musicians to sustain them while they're closed. That's what Bill says. If you want to introduce Bill,

00:45:45.700 - 00:46:03.660

which maybe we shouldn't have, but we will. We speak about this just this morning, Bill says, and it's fresh in my mind that the black musician plays his music, the white musician make can frequently make a choice to play studio music, to find for

00:46:04.320 - 00:46:15.780

his music and some or the or the black person music as a white player. And similarly, just as people have brought up the issue, says Bill of black musicians who may have bad sense of time, bad sense of intonation, Bill says, So what

00:46:15.780 - 00:46:29.840

they're playing their music. He's seen bad white conductors, but he points up the fact the white musician, say, in sort of the so called new music, or so called Art music, or the so called black music, still can, with more ease, get a rodeo city

00:46:29.840 - 00:46:41.140

gig or get a studio gig. And I guess it's New York studios won't open to black musicians until relatively recent, very small Richard Davies,

00:46:42.100 - 00:46:50.800

Benny power, Terry, I was speaking to Gration about this racial issue. Gratian our integration maybe once every three weeks, and we speak for a

00:46:50.800 - 00:47:03.120

few minutes, and it ends up to be a long time, because Gration is a very inspiring and a warm and sophisticated player and person, and we were talking much about this issue, and I got very close to him, and I said very honestly, Grayson, just as when

00:47:03.120 - 00:47:15.120

I wanted to play in Sunrise band, which is another story I can tell you some other time, I said very honestly, Grayson, this is how I feel. As I said before, I'm ambivalent. I don't know about this business. Let's talk about it, even though

00:47:15.120 - 00:47:28.040

frequently black musicians object to talking about it. We made this clear. And he said that as a player, he doesn't know that any white player can have the same experience, and this is evading the question for a minute of the working

00:47:28.040 - 00:47:42.880

condition. Well, maybe he doesn't know that any white player can have the experience of a black player in playing the music, but it doesn't mean that they're any less better. And he personally, speaking of him personally, doesn't have the

00:47:42.880 - 00:47:59.260

time to be prejudiced because things are so oppressing. And as far as me, he said that he felt He's never heard anyone play like me before, and so he thinks I'm doing all I can as a white player. And this is, as I said to Bill, I can't be concerned

00:47:59.260 - 00:48:15.900

with what anybody thinks I can just do what I can in my way. Do you think that in the new music group, improvisation is growing in importance compared to what was played 10 years ago? This is another interesting thing, because last year, I

00:48:15.900 - 00:48:26.960

don't know how long you were here, Rick, last year, last year, when the jazz components guild existed for the so called, more established. And I was studying with Bill Nixon and playing there occasionally the valen silver ones with somebody

00:48:26.960 - 00:48:39.740

else. There was a parallel movement of the new players you beginning to hear of now, cats like Perry, Robinson, Marion Brown, other players, and a lot of it focused at the 111 gallery. This is, in a sense, relates a little to the prior

00:48:39.740 - 00:48:53.380

question about working conditions. As I said, I don't play in clubs much. I have much. I have played only in colleges, art galleries, universities and museums only, and once or twice in schools other than colleges. Anyway, we had an art gallery

00:48:53.380 - 00:49:08.640

which was given to us we had we played from 5pm till 10pm and sometimes that would involve two or three hours of playing. And then at night, we would go to the Gulch and see what was happening. And I had a feeling, I don't mean to document this or

00:49:08.640 - 00:49:23.480

anything, but I had a feeling that many respects, the more traditional forms of group, button proposition, were coming back. Clarinet, for a while, was coming back. Clarinet, Raj is trombone certainly is total, total, yeah, a lot of my brass

00:49:23.480 - 00:49:37.760

ideas, I think, have been that way too, the vocal ideas, the independence ideas, since that year, a lot, and I have tapes from that view, a lot of the ideas that were isolated and just sought have been filed down and made more parsimonious. And

00:49:37.760 - 00:49:48.700

now we can say in what note, one note, what may have taken us several phrases, but that was the raw material and the group improvisation. Now, like in the ensemble piece of writing, now there are going to be sections where three players improvise

00:49:48.700 - 00:49:59.920

451, in Bill's 25 piece orchestra thing with 10 voices, there are sections that a whole orchestra might improvise. Of sections, why? It's not, no, it's not the point that it's coming back at all.

00:50:00.000 - 00:50:16.500

All the point is jazz music is not about stylized or one particular style that everybody follows as it always has been, like you've had particular areas each particular style. The whole point is group improvisation can be coming back among certain

00:50:16.500 - 00:50:28.580

composers, among certain players. Other composers might have very different things without any group improvisation at all. Another one might want total group improvisation, because the whole thing now is it can go any number of

00:50:28.580 - 00:50:42.340

directions, because every younger musician coming up now is writing his own things, his own conception. It's not about styles. It's not about a bebop thing. It's not about playing more traditional vocal effects. Somebody might be playing very

00:50:42.340 - 00:50:53.860

cleanly, another person might be playing very dirty. You know, it's not it's not about is something coming back, is something that was a bad word. But I do think there is more group improvisation.

00:50:53.860 - 00:51:03.960

There's just more of everything. There's more of everything, everything. So any you can go anywhere.

00:51:03.960 - 00:51:17.220

Is there more? Is there more of what we called, few years back, third street music, I hear less of that. It's not as involved. There was this big inferiority complex amongst jazz musicians that they had to identify with classical

00:51:17.220 - 00:51:30.680

music in order to really socially get into that thing. But jazz isn't about just getting somewhere socially. And I think that there is a pride amongst jazz musicians now that really, they're getting into so much more than any Western music

00:51:30.680 - 00:51:41.360

has ever produced. And the only comparable music that's really got as far into anything is probably some of the Eastern music so so and people are very proud of it. Let me fasten that down, so we're not just getting into more of

00:51:41.360 - 00:51:51.100

everything. We're not getting into more getting into more bebop, for example, with the piano feeding chords to the Hans. We're not getting into more of third string music, but we are getting into more group improvisation, and that implies

00:51:51.100 - 00:52:06.600

certain selectivity that your previous answer, let me take up, right? Okay, let me take up the point about Eastern music. Do you think that Asia and Africa are acting as musical inspiration, definitely more so than Europe. Oh,

00:52:06.780 - 00:52:22.700

Europe has no inspiration, as far as I can see. But the only way it has an inspiration is technically. It has some things down technically, on how to write for various instruments and their range and pure technical things. But as regards

00:52:23.180 - 00:52:38.960

borrowing, how can you, okay, how can you, you know, it's not an improvised music, very much less to offer to very briefly say regarding east and west, if you have a screen with little holes in a piece of screening, and the

00:52:38.960 - 00:52:51.400

western man will tend to look at one of these holes as a piece and be involved that way, the Eastern man will stand back and look at the total pattern. Similarly, the as Rick says, the European man may become more concerned with isolated things,

00:52:51.400 - 00:53:07.260

Western the total thing. Now, if you listen to a good sitar player or a mediocre sit Tara player, or in some senses, a cat like sunroof, or some sense of my own tapes at Nixon, right? You have one phenomenon. They speak of new music which annoys

00:53:07.260 - 00:53:22.040

me, space music which annoys me, extraterrestrial comes one or metallic everything looking into the future, a good expressive piece, like a good sunroof piece, or a good sit Tara piece of what embodies 6000 years or more forward in time, and 6000

00:53:22.400 - 00:53:32.960

years or more back in time. And just as we can sing through these Hans and get these so called primitive sounds, they're also not unlike mechanical sounds. And I don't know that we have to categorize, but there should be the sense of totality

00:53:32.960 - 00:53:45.160

that Eric had, as Rick said, and that that is just much stronger, because it speaks for all humanity 100 years from now, or a billion years. It's so many Chinese western music was a

00:53:45.160 - 00:54:03.300

music full of holes, you know? And it's exactly, it's total vision of the whole thing, of the space as well, as well as the sounds. They're just sounds in space or space surrounding sounds, whichever way you want to look at it. And the thing is,

00:54:03.300 - 00:54:14.940

the music more was an ego thing for a long time, putting everything else neatly, putting everything else in relationship to yourself. But music isn't about that. It's about expressing yourself in relationship to everything else,

00:54:15.000 - 00:54:27.980

which is a totally different thing. Classical music always tried to orderly put everything else in relationship to itself, supplant its ego on the top of the whole thing, and say it's mine. Music is not about that. You learn your technique when

00:54:27.980 - 00:54:38.660

you play, your technique, when you play you forget about your technique, and you see yourself and your sound in total relationship to everything else. In other words, all the other sounds that are happening around you, the percussive sounds, the

00:54:39.260 - 00:54:53.440

contours that are being put down by maybe an arco base or something. You see yourself in relationship to all that, not those things, in relationship to you and you play. Why do you think the new musicians are so much more

00:54:53.440 - 00:55:05.760

concerned with African Asia now than they were 15 years ago? Young musicians? Well, I think. Yeah, as you see in many of the arts, you have tendencies, revolution, counter revolution, so forth, doing a

00:55:05.760 - 00:55:16.200

certain thing, getting fed up with it, and looking for something entirely new. Similarly, we had the thing where we played certain harmonic lines, vertical structures, and we improvised on them, say, in the sense Beethoven writes, and

00:55:16.200 - 00:55:28.460

now Ornette wrote more like Bach wrote, you know, with melodic lines, going to melodic lines. And I think there was a quest. And when cats heard bebop after a while, if you want to use that term and certain things, they heard it and heard it and heard

00:55:28.460 - 00:55:41.020

it once in a while, and they heard something new. It made a greater impression, or it makes a greater impression. I know when I hear, you know, Eastern music, African music, the very novelty or difference relative to everything that's gone before

00:55:41.080 - 00:55:52.480

teachers. It's not just a musical experience. Anything novel teaches. If you're open and relaxed, that's one advantage. Or Indian music 10 years and you think the

00:55:52.480 - 00:56:01.420

part of this is because these countries have become independent, and to some extent, in the focus of world history in the last well, India's always

00:56:01.660 - 00:56:12.780

been then you're getting back into the political awareness, maybe of especially for black musicians, maybe this gave them something else that they could identify with, especially with Africa. It

00:56:12.780 - 00:56:24.200

became more respectable to go back to the roots, whereas before you were doing a new assignment, it was Tara and that scene, and you certainly don't be identified

00:56:24.200 - 00:56:39.380

with Tara. Yeah, around those terms, around the time that I had an encounter with Archie, which I'll never understand, because, as I say, I have a lot of these encounters which I tend to misinterpret. So

00:56:39.380 - 00:56:55.540

I just let them go, but he and I played together just a brief thing in somebody's house. Anyway, around this time, I was getting together a library for ESP because they offered me a date at the time, which I hadn't taken yet, but I was discussing

00:56:55.540 - 00:57:11.640

with my drummer, who's a friend of Archie, who's a friend of black players, who is a black player, and Frank Clayton, I use in my group, I use pocket cornet, and I use Flugel and I use an elephant pocket cornet. In some parts, I put an extra

00:57:11.640 - 00:57:23.480

extension and makes the thing out of tune and gives you a less brassy instrument. And though I can get quarter tones on any instrument, it makes it more easy. Anyway, there's an inclination of my playing toward the eastern mode? Things I've

00:57:23.480 - 00:57:33.680

written, I found out subsequently, were in the eastern modes. And there's a fight which I use. I have several tunes written just for that, where I use no other Hans. And when I worked with dancers, I used them. And the point I'm

00:57:33.680 - 00:57:46.300

trying to make is he and I discussed this, and I found certain intervals, technically speaking, and certain modes and tendencies and phrases which were very much Eastern in the Israeli sense. Now you can speak of built in archetypes and

00:57:46.300 - 00:57:56.920

ethnic archetypes and so forth, because I never remember listening to Israeli music, though I come from a pretty strong Jewish background, all Middle Eastern music has a basic similarity. In fact, I was

00:57:56.920 - 00:58:12.900

just going to say all improvising music has has various things in common. I played with Greek music. Oh yeah. I played with Spanish musicians. In Spain, I played with some mountain

00:58:12.900 - 00:58:24.020

musicians in France, who are just completely out of sight, playing string instruments, and I played trumpet with them. At that time, I wasn't technically very much into anything, but there's certain things, if you have an improvising ear, an

00:58:24.020 - 00:58:36.020

improvising approach, that you can hear, and it's all about this total sound and putting yourself in relationship to everything else. Again, I don't mean supplanting yourself, because you play you, you know you, but the only music I call

00:58:36.020 - 00:58:52.420

my music is Rick Colbeck music, because it's improvised, and it's improvising directly out of me, whatever traditions I have in my subconscious will show all improvised music has huge things in common. Any jazz musician can go to an Indian concert and get

00:58:52.480 - 00:59:05.700

right into it, even though he doesn't know about tan Tara and the various other beat structures. You know, he doesn't have to know. He can see when they're exchanging eight bars, four bars, two bars, one and then the climax of exactly what

00:59:05.700 - 00:59:18.060

it's all about. Take a classical musician, a western classical musician. It's the only music in the whole of the world that became so ego conscious and so completely removed physically from the act of playing, so that you even had people sitting down

00:59:18.540 - 00:59:31.760

writing music and never playing. Bach was an improvising musician. He improvised sometimes with like seven hours. At a stretch, he was physically involved with his instrument, with the playing of an instrument. Secondarily, he was

00:59:32.180 - 00:59:45.520

involved with composing as much as anything else. If they're recording in Bach's day, you probably wouldn't have had this whole western classical tradition, because it's a whole backward looking tradition. It is a tradition. It isn't

00:59:45.520 - 00:59:56.440

backward looking, actually, it's backward looking because now, yeah, nobody tries to play like Louis Armstrong anymore because he was recording. He put the Capitola on the thing. He did his thing. And so second generation players gradually

00:59:56.440 - 01:00:08.400

gone into a new thing with Parker, the same thing, second generation players. Ended to play like him, but then it moved on, not to deny their genius, you know, but, but the thing is, with classical music, it's just constipated and and it's very

01:00:08.400 - 01:00:19.740

much an ego, ego form a historical view. I mean, the thing is, classical music evolved in a certain time on certain certain class structures. Of Weldon was designed to give the aristocracy

01:00:19.740 - 01:00:30.860

of that day, sent in uniform, so they'd be at home, whether they were in the Prussian court or in Paris, yes, but at the start, and that friend of Marcus, that Lou there, they were famed for their improvisation.