00:00:02.720 - 00:00:19.580

Frank Kofsky: Keep the musicians. Because I think most fans are really interested in what the musicians had to say, much more so they're interested in what some concert promoter has. I mean, I judge that for my own basis, because I hear our

00:00:19.580 - 00:00:37.820

worship the musicians to me all of those. John is a hero, and one of the men who really influenced my life, so I figured that there are other people like me who love the music that much, who would listen to something if a musician said I wouldn't

00:00:37.820 - 00:00:54.160

listen to it, if critic said it, or George Green said it or something new, I fool around a little with the drums and a little less with the piano, and a friend of mine got an old alto saxophone out of his attic. I'm trying to teach myself, just

00:00:54.160 - 00:01:08.640

because I feel that the more I know about how to play the music, the more I understand how the music is made, and I get a better idea of what goes into it, but I never, you know, I never would hope to be a

00:01:08.640 - 00:01:21.680

musician, and I don't consider myself somebody who would have been a musician under other circumstances, because I know my talent just doesn't lie in that direction. But if I can use that to understand it, then I want to do it. Okay? Ready to blast off?

00:01:21.740 - 00:01:34.280

Yeah? Well, whatever. Okay. Do you think the phrase the new black music is an accurate description of some of the newer styles in jazz and of the music you play? The new black music? Yeah, it's been called that by certain some writers. Well,

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Rashied Ali: no, I can't rightly go for the that goes a long way. How do you mean to entitle the new black music? Because, like, well, I can't really say it's new man, because bird was doing that shit.

00:02:05.580 - 00:02:15.180

Frank Kofsky: Okay, we're supposed to leave off the new. Well, how would you say it? Then you're, what are you left with black Rashied Ali: music? Okay, well, I could use more or less that

00:02:15.180 - 00:02:31.640

way, okay, because it is like a black, I would call it a black classical type of music. You know, to me, I think traditionally, like jazz, is more of a black classroom as far down as, like in the cotton field days.

00:02:32.660 - 00:02:47.320

Frank Kofsky: So you see this music much more closely related to the black community than to the white community, Rashied Ali: much more as far as the as far as to create, to create the Create, creativity is concerned, you know, like, like,

00:02:47.980 - 00:03:02.700

the deciding factor seems to always lie in the decision of the way the music is going. The black man usually changes. Usually make all those type of changes in the music itself. Like, from, well, going back to, you know, to the days of

00:03:02.700 - 00:03:15.120

slavery, man, when he was singing, you know, right up until the time of Werner Coleman. Frank Kofsky: Man, the major innovators have always come from the black community rather than, right? Does that mean that

00:03:15.120 - 00:03:27.500

whites have no role in this music, or does it mean just that they don't contribute to major innovations role? Yeah, does that mean, the meaning they can't play at all, can't play at all, can't play it

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Rashied Ali: at all. Man, because, like some of them. Man, like some some white musicians, well, really get into the music. I mean, you know, they learn how to play it, you know? But as far as, like, incubators, you innovators,

00:03:48.220 - 00:04:07.200

Frank Kofsky: I agree that's my position exactly Rashied Ali: after, you know, like, like Stan Getz. Man, you know, or many of those guests. Man, Paul Desmond, they're very technical, and they got their horn together to a point to

00:04:07.260 - 00:04:20.420

where they can play anything they hear just about and so with that kind of musicianship, well, they able to play, able to play any type of music they want, Frank Kofsky: but they really haven't left much of an

00:04:20.420 - 00:04:29.420

impression on the other musicians that is, aren't really very many people who play like Paul that are people who play like in other words, they are not major innovators. They have not produced a new style. No?

00:04:29.420 - 00:04:41.260

Rashied Ali: Well, they're coming from somewhere, like something that have always been laid out, more or less, Frank Kofsky: yeah, something something they've adjusted themselves to, rather than something that they have

00:04:41.260 - 00:04:55.840

contributed. What about the audience? Do you ever find that the reaction of an audience varies according to whether it's a black audience, a white audience or a mixed audience? We mean very well. I mean you find that a black audience reacts

00:04:55.900 - 00:05:07.680

more strongly, more positively than a white audience in general, or that a white audience. It's reacts more strongly than a black audience, or is it a mixed audience? That's what I'm reacting listening to your music, yeah,

00:05:07.680 - 00:05:19.200

when you actually play it, what do you find? Actually, it's really hard for me to Rashied Ali: see just how they react, because mostly, like, I'm playing, but like, if I'm in the audience and I'm watching

00:05:19.200 - 00:05:35.120

another group play, I it. Well, I see, well, everybody's very attentive, you know, it doesn't matter we know what they are, man, because that got played to like, maybe 12,000 Japanese people, man, and like, These are Japanese people. They was

00:05:35.120 - 00:05:48.340

digging. You know, I think it doesn't matter about what kind of race it is. Somebody can always listen and hear something in that music that identifies they can identify their self. Anybody can do that.

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Frank Kofsky: If you read Malcolm X's autobiography, you find out that Malcolm was a close friend of many jazz musicians. Do you think that this is an accident, or do you think that this has some kind of significance? So there's a

00:06:01.060 - 00:06:09.540

saying something about jazz and about Malcolm X that that he was a friend of these, of some Unknown: musicians, yeah, well, Malcolm was a friend of Milt Jackson, right?

00:06:09.540 - 00:06:27.140

Well, he spoke very, very highly of these musicians and positions, you know, like he but Frank Kofsky: what was that question? Well, what I really want to know is, if you think that there's any connection

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between the things that Malcolm stood for and the music and the music, Rashied Ali: well, yes, it is because Malcolm's black man and he and he was standing for rights the black people, and I'm

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sure the musicians these days are thinking in those terms, also Frank Kofsky: about freedom. Would you ever consider dedicating a composition to Malcolm your own?

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Unknown: Well, yes, I would consider dedicating a composition to all the people, to the whole thing, because Malcolm was a part of it. He was more of a dominant part. He stood out. He stood out more

00:07:11.320 - 00:07:24.140

like a more like a Frank Kofsky: shining light, shining Prince. Ozzy Davies called him, I think, is there anybody else, any public figure or any musical figure,

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who strikes you the same way as standing out there and being a shining light musically? Well, anywhere any from any part of the world you want to take a musical or political or what Rashied Ali: have you? Well, yes. Well, there's a lot of

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them, just not mentioning some of them would maybe take away from something else. But then there's a lot of people that that I admire that's going in that direction, in that direction, in

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alpha Malcolm, Frank Kofsky: then do the musicians who play in this style. I'll call it newer. I realize that isn't really accurate, but let me do it anyhow. Do the musicians who

00:08:05.040 - 00:08:22.460

play in this newer style discuss things political and social issues? Do they talk about Malcolm X? What do they say? Well, if you can summarize it, are they in favor in general, Rashied Ali: they speak about Malcolm X King, Malcolm's death

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being untimely, like all the good things that were happening, you know, for the people, I mean, comparing, comparing with, say, 100 years ago. I mean, it goes, I mean, it just goes to prove that

00:08:46.060 - 00:09:05.440

if everybody would more or less get together and really get together with themselves, then they would all stand up at once, which would make it much bigger. We talk about, do you Frank Kofsky: try and connect it with the music? Somehow you try

00:09:05.440 - 00:09:17.080

and, Rashied Ali: well, it's all connected, you know. Because, like, music and whatever, whatever you know, whatever I do, you know, it's all the same thing, you know. It's all life,

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you know. And like, I play about everything you know that happens so like to me, music and living it all goes together. I play about the situations of the day because I live. I live about the situations of the day. Fact you live in the situation. I play

00:09:37.760 - 00:09:49.180

about it all Frank Kofsky: some musicians have said, speaking of situations of the day, the Jazz is opposed to what the United States is doing in Vietnam. Do you think that there's any truth

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to that? Rashied Ali: Well, I don't know if the music itself is opposed, but yeah, it could be, because most of them. Musicians that I know, they're against this war in Vietnam, and I guess you can

00:10:11.340 - 00:10:26.420

hear that in their playing also, you know, they tell you how they how they feel about it. You know, if you listen, I guess world situations. You know, we're all involved, because we all think living in peace harmony.

00:10:27.560 - 00:10:47.680

Frank Kofsky: So that's not what the United States is doing in Vietnam, living in peace and harm. Definitely, just the opposite. What What's your general opinion of working conditions for jazz musicians? Do you feel on the whole the

00:10:47.680 - 00:11:10.800

jazz musicians are treated as artists deserve to be treated. Why do you think this is that they aren't treated the way they deserve to be? I Rashied Ali: it Well, for one thing, you take mostly every

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other art field have some sort government support, you know, like they give grants to artists, sculptures and things like that. Now I don't know, I don't know the reason why, but even concert musicians, I mean,

00:11:30.800 - 00:11:49.540

you know, like, like classical musicians, you know, like they have, they get grants and stuff like that. But jazz musicians never, never, never received this kind of help. NEVER received this kind of help from anybody. Man, it's like it's all

00:11:49.540 - 00:12:10.740

on you. You know, it's all laying on you. Whatever you do, however you make it, they don't, I don't know. This doesn't seem like the government supports it is much as it could let it here. In fact, I have a letter

00:12:10.000 - 00:12:23.680

Frank Kofsky: that was sent to Congressman Powell. Oh, I saw that letter. Did you see that? Yeah, to print it and change it. Has it been printed in Change? John Sinclair published it in Change. Yeah, you have it in that issue of change in the

00:12:23.680 - 00:12:45.580

other room. It's in there. Well, I have letter was written like Archie wrote it, didn't he or somebody, Rashied Ali: but, well, it was a lot of money, you know, like put that was passed through Congress, for for the arts, for

00:12:45.580 - 00:13:01.140

the arts, nothing was ever even mentioned for musician, musicians. Frank Kofsky: Let me talk about my own field for a minute. I'm an historian, and I know, for example, well, take this as a

00:13:01.140 - 00:13:12.300

case in point. When Washington crossed Delaware, there were three black men in the boats with him. But yet, if you read the textbooks, or if you look at the pictures of the painting, you don't see those black people. And that's true of

00:13:12.300 - 00:13:24.920

history in general, is the way it's treated. The United States, black people are excluded from the history textbooks and so forth. It strikes me that what we're talking about here in lack of support for jazz musicians is the same thing. You're excluding

00:13:24.920 - 00:13:39.500

the black man's art because you've excluded the black man from the rest of the benefits of the society. What do you think about that line of reasoning? Well, the black man has always been excluded, so it only makes sense to exclude his music. He's

00:13:39.500 - 00:13:52.600

Rashied Ali: been there. He's always been not talked about. So yeah. Well, Frank Kofsky: do you think white jazz musicians on the whole are treated better than black?

00:14:02.800 - 00:14:18.060

Rashied Ali: Then really funny question, because do you Frank Kofsky: want me to tell you why I asked it? Why? Well, for one thing, Bill Nixon said this in an article in the jazz

00:14:18.060 - 00:14:31.520

composers guild when that was still alive. He pointed out that white musicians could always get jobs and studio orchestras and so forth when black ones couldn't. And then I noticed compiling lists of, for example, people who were invited to the

00:14:31.520 - 00:14:41.320

White House jazz positions. Almost two thirds of them are white. And yet we know that about balance in jazz is just the other way around. That's Rashied Ali: why State

00:14:43.300 - 00:15:06.060

Frank Kofsky: Department says, Unknown: On the other hand, there, there are more say, say, Dave Brubeck makes more money than bud Powell and. Freddy Hubbard,

00:15:07.440 - 00:15:16.430

Frank Kofsky: hey, Brubeck, makes the cover of Time 10 years before Thelonious Monk or, Unknown: you know, but you know that doesn't mean anything about the playing, see, because the playing, as far as I'm

00:15:16.430 - 00:15:27.770

concerned, doesn't compare with no but I want to know how they're treated. I mean, well, if they're, if they're making more money, they're treated better. That's, that's for sure. Man, that's when I want to get because they'd be, they'd be

00:15:27.770 - 00:15:52.560

having ranches and property. I mean, ranches, I know, Frank Kofsky: man, oh, yeah. Shelly manne, that's it, yeah, Shelly manne, with that stable That's right, that's right. How can I ever forget nightclubs? Do you know where Shelly manne

00:15:52.560 - 00:16:09.790

lives? By the way, he lives in California, yeah, but, I mean, it was way what part he lives in Los Angeles. He lives in the valley, but he lives in a part where, like, you'd have to get a telescope. You want to

00:16:09.900 - 00:16:24.680

Rashied Ali: see a black Frank Kofsky: man, one of this country's leading black drummers. They went out there one day. They're Rashied Ali: walking course, they're welcome to come in

00:16:25.220 - 00:16:36.740

right. Frank Kofsky: Look around. Don't touch anything. Touch. Rashied Ali: Well, you know, I can really go somewhere with that.

00:16:39.200 - 00:16:51.880

Unknown: Yeah, I really would have seen that too much. You know, I know Los Frank Kofsky: Angeles, and I know just where, you know where that is Weldon Northridge. How do you think you could go about

00:16:51.880 - 00:17:04.260

improving working conditions for jazz positions? Or do you think it's important, it's possible to improve them, Rashied Ali: to improve working conditions? Well, I think, man, to improve the whole thing, all the way around, you should have

00:17:04.260 - 00:17:11.880

more control. We the musicians. Yeah, the musician should have more control. Like Frank Kofsky: they should own their own record companies do their own booking.

00:17:12.060 - 00:17:24.980

Rashied Ali: You know more, just more control. You know more. You know to know more about what's going on, business wise, with the music. Also, we should Frank Kofsky: be hip today. How do they go about getting that

00:17:24.980 - 00:17:37.520

control? Rashied Ali: Go about getting the control like, like a device? Well, Frank Kofsky: I was thinking, for example, the jazz composers

00:17:37.520 - 00:17:45.040

guild organizing. Rashied Ali: There have to be some sort of, some kind of organization, Frank Kofsky: that's what I mean.

00:17:45.760 - 00:17:53.200

Rashied Ali: We'll have to get together. Frank Kofsky: Have to get together so can't be done on an individual basis, Rashied Ali: not individually. You know, like, some people are

00:17:53.200 - 00:18:08.400

making very good attempts at it, and are trying very hard on our and are doing things individually. But if, like, there was more, even more people working individually that. But it can't be, because it's not that many working that's able to

00:18:09.180 - 00:18:27.800

to contribute to having more control over the music. You see now, if there were more people working at it'll work, but this way we just have to all like it together. The people that are able to get together,

00:18:31.340 - 00:18:47.500

Frank Kofsky: do the new musicians, the younger musicians, do they look to Africa and Asia for their musical inspiration? Africa and Asia, Asia like India, Rashied Ali: well, they would have to actually look to Africa.

00:18:47.500 - 00:19:11.220

Man, because, like, well, that's, that's a thing that they won't Well, that's already there. But, well, I think it's more universal. Man, this music is pretty universal. Because, for one thing, the American black man is a person of many

00:19:11.220 - 00:19:27.500

mixes, mixed breed, and he looks, I guess, Morton to himself. You know, for this music, it comes out maybe sounding like like African music or Indian music. That's because all this thing is a part. He's a part of all this.

00:19:30.440 - 00:19:42.940

Frank Kofsky: I thought Friday night, which is the first time I've heard the new a lot of things that sounded kind of Middle Eastern to me. Rashied Ali: Well, when you said Middle Eastern, that's like

00:19:42.940 - 00:19:52.480

universal, because it could be like a lot of things that you know, little Easton would sound like this. Frank Kofsky: That's true. It Rashied Ali: is University, yeah, that's where, that's

00:19:52.480 - 00:20:14.340

where, like, music itself is, is sort of that way, you know. But I. It's just that coming from, well, I've heard like Middle Eastern music, man play. I've heard 12 bar blues segments of 12 bar blues and loud Middle Eastern music begins to play

00:20:14.340 - 00:20:31.640

little sitars and tablets, you know? And that could be coming from, from some very old, in fact, the tabla, well, it comes from a very old, ancient instrument, which is the

00:20:31.640 - 00:20:49.360

Congo, which is the African drum you see, and like, I mean, when they get to playing at blues and stuff, man, it's, well, I think it's, it's all relative to African music, because I think that's, that's more or less where, with that rhythmic pulse,

00:20:49.660 - 00:21:03.690

all came off, came about. You know, from Africa, more or less from there, man, you can hear, like in India music. You can hear some of these things that, like the new group is playing today.

00:21:05.010 - 00:21:17.550

Frank Kofsky: Do you think that black musicians in this country are more aware of these African roots than they were 10 or 15 years ago? No, because it's always been there. But I'm talking about the awareness of it, not

00:21:17.550 - 00:21:35.000

Rashied Ali: whether it's always been there, even the awareness of it has been there because, like, it was always happening, you know, and whatever, whatever they did. Man, I don't care what it was, from dancing to to singing, you know, to acting to

00:21:35.000 - 00:21:56.320

to to making knives, man, to fishing, to whatever, you know, it's always been there that traditional type of thing that you don't get away from me, and I don't care where you're raised or how you're raised. Thing is there you never get away from

00:21:56.320 - 00:22:10.440

it. Frank Kofsky: Do you think that Europe has as much to contribute musically to these newer styles and jazz as Africa, Europe, yeah, European music,

00:22:10.560 - 00:22:21.560

Rashied Ali: yeah, well, European music, but I can see, man, European music, as far as European like classical music you're talking Frank Kofsky: about? No, I want to know if this has anything to

00:22:21.560 - 00:22:35.660

contribute to jazz, though, that's what I'm really interested in. To jazz, yes, to today's jazz, the jazz you're playing. You see, we've already said that Africa is there. Africa makes a contribution. I want to see that European

00:22:35.660 - 00:22:54.580

Rashied Ali: music, well, definitely, because I say the tech, the technical standpoint of the instrument, like it's it's enough, because all these instruments that we're using are European instruments, so we have to learn more or less the

00:22:54.580 - 00:23:09.900

technical aspects in order to play. So you learn like, I guess, you start with learning a technical way to play, which is European way to know, you know, you have to get there. I mean, you really have to know how to play those

00:23:12.120 - 00:23:21.080

Frank Kofsky: it does seem to me, though, that these musicians have created their own techniques. I've never heard anybody play, any European musician play the saxophone like John Coltrane. I've never even heard any European music. Think

00:23:21.080 - 00:23:36.980

about playing the science. Yeah, see what I mean. So it's true that European Europe forms the jumping off point, but it also seems to me that jazz musicians have created their own technique, the improvisation, not not just the improvisation,

00:23:36.980 - 00:23:49.480

but it's Rashied Ali: purely the musicians way of life, how you feel about the whole situation, how you feel about this, this whole

00:23:49.480 - 00:24:08.650

thing, I mean, this whole way of life, I feel that is what he's the One that's telling me people. But like, I'm saying technically, be given today, self taught musicians even teach yourself

00:24:08.650 - 00:24:25.640

how to read music. Frank Kofsky: The European system, right? Rashied Ali: Because this is only system that we that we know here. I mean, not the only one, but this is the major system.

00:24:26.180 - 00:24:42.700

Frank Kofsky: It gives you a common language to begin with. Do you think that group improvisation, as, for example, in Pharaoh and Johannes John were playing at the same time on Friday night? Do you think that that is becoming more important

00:24:42.700 - 00:24:54.880

to the music than it was 10 or 15 years ago? Rashied Ali: Group in Proposition, Frank Kofsky: yeah, where several horns or several instruments are playing at once, not in the same of course, you

00:24:54.880 - 00:25:03.000

always have several instruments playing at once. You used to have a soloist with a rhythm section behind you, right? Right? But it seems what was going on Friday night was sort of that

00:25:04.560 - 00:25:15.300

Rashied Ali: way, right? But now Frank Kofsky: it seems like there's something else where you have two horns playing, or maybe somebody else would pick up some of those rhythmical instruments that you had in the band too.

00:25:15.840 - 00:25:32.780

And this seems a different kind of improvisation than before, when you just had a soloist in the rhythm section. Do you think that this is a new development? Rashied Ali: New Development? We'll see. You know, like this

00:25:32.780 - 00:25:43.600

has all been done. I've heard it done before. Frank Kofsky: I shouldn't say new development. What I should say is, you think it's becoming more important Rashied Ali: now page. You know, they still all just, you know,

00:25:43.600 - 00:25:53.500

they still all just get together and be playing. Frank Kofsky: But in the 50s, you didn't see very much of that. What I want to know is, if it's becoming more important in the 60s, and it was in the

00:25:54.880 - 00:26:08.700

Rashied Ali: 50s, in the 50s, Frank Kofsky: yeah, take a group like miles. Is their cannonballs group you never heard them do the kind of thing that John and Farrow were doing Friday night. That's what I want. That's what

00:26:08.700 - 00:26:30.740

I mean by group improvisation. And I want to know that's if there's more of a trend now to play that way than there was in the 50s. Rashied Ali: Well, to say Mort or the way, I think this is the

00:26:30.740 - 00:26:44.920

way that it's going Frank Kofsky: in that direction, the way John and Farrow were playing, yeah, that direction, more or less. Why do you think that is that it's going In that direction instead of some other

00:26:44.920 - 00:27:14.160

direction. Rashied Ali: Stuff, yeah, that's, that's a hard question, because why it's going in that direction? Frank Kofsky: You remember you said to me earlier, the

00:27:14.220 - 00:27:28.040

musicians have to get themselves together. Have to organize, right so forth, to change things. I wonder if this, if that getting together also goes on in the music, in this way, in this way, that's whether this is what's happening. Why? Why

00:27:28.400 - 00:27:38.300

people are playing together now when they Rashied Ali: didn't play that way? Yeah, but then sometimes, no, it's not, I don't think it's exactly that way, because, like, there's some things that you know, like, you really have to

00:27:38.300 - 00:27:52.420

talk about. I mean, you know, verbally, I think, like a lot of the musicians, should really get together and more or less talk about situations as well as play about I wasn't Frank Kofsky: arguing, no, I wasn't saying that they

00:27:52.480 - 00:28:02.220

shouldn't talk about it. But I wonder, just seemed to me that maybe that in addition to trying to get together and talk about them, they're also trying to get together and Rashied Ali: play about, yeah, but then you say, why isn't the

00:28:02.220 - 00:28:13.680

music being played in another direction we'll see? Well, because Mallea, Frank Kofsky: but what? Let me rephrase that, why isn't? Why don't we see a continuation of the old direction, the way of

00:28:13.680 - 00:28:19.860

the 50s? Rashied Ali: Well, that is a continuation. Yeah, that is definitely a continuation, but Frank Kofsky: it isn't a continuation of a straight line.

00:28:19.860 - 00:28:30.620

What? It isn't in the straight it doesn't go in a Rashied Ali: straight line. Well, it goes in a straight line, but there's more than one line, okay, Frank Kofsky: I see, yes, the branches, right?

00:28:31.340 - 00:28:56.020

Rashied Ali: Like, you know it's well, it's just that it's, it's well, like, it's a lot of, a lot of different lines you see, but like it all winds up in the same direction. It all winds up at the same direction you see, but it goes in different ways to get

00:28:56.020 - 00:29:02.280

there. Frank Kofsky: You see, like several roads Rashied Ali: leading everything, like bird man was doing the same thing.

00:29:05.460 - 00:29:16.140

Frank Kofsky: I noticed a tendency for many of the newer groups, either not to have a piano or else for the piano player to lay out when the horns are playing. Do you think that that tendency is there?

00:29:17.280 - 00:29:29.720

Rashied Ali: Well, no, because the piano also doesn't it says up to the I guess that's up to whoever is. That's up to the leader of the band. Frank Kofsky: Well, I just mean looking at the different of the

00:29:29.720 - 00:29:45.640

new groups, the groups were playing in the newer styles, let's say, Take Archie's group and Ornette screw and Albert Ehlers group, and did I say John's group? In John's group, either there isn't any piano there, or else, if the piano is

00:29:45.640 - 00:29:56.920

there, the piano doesn't play, lays out for a lot of times while the horns are playing. It is, do you think that this is seems to be the case among the newer groups? Well, overall, I don't mean that there's no groups of piano Of

00:29:56.920 - 00:30:16.500

Rashied Ali: course there's piano players, I'm saying. But you. Yeah. Well, there was a time that I when I didn't play for piano for a while, merely because, like, the piano would restrict you more or less to a certain chord change. But now

00:30:16.500 - 00:30:34.820

find it true, because there's, there's more piano players now, just playing more or less than this newer conception, and they're able to fit very well as an accomplice, as accompanying the solos. They able to do that very well.

00:30:36.380 - 00:30:56.620

Frank Kofsky: Now, do you think the that musicians who play horns are trying to play more pitches that are in the 12 tone scale. In other words, you're trying to break away from the piano keyboard and play notes that aren't on the piano

00:30:56.620 - 00:31:20.960

keyboard or sounds that aren't on the piano keyboard. You Rashied Ali: like harmonics, things like that. You think John a lot of people playing like harmonics? Frank Kofsky: Do you think, John, they'll never

00:31:23.540 - 00:31:43.000

Rashied Ali: get away because the piano. Frank Kofsky: Do you remember third string music, Gunther Schuler compositions, John Lewis and so on? Yeah. Why do you think that that never really caught on among the younger

00:31:43.120 - 00:32:14.580

musicians? Or do you think that it ever caught on? Well, Rashied Ali: we'll see. There's been a lot of attempts to pit classical music. Do it. Well, it's just been, well, I've tried that a lot of times. It

00:32:14.580 - 00:32:38.000

did do something because some of that stuff I heard I liked. Well, it was Jackson, Percy Capitola took Frank Kofsky: it someplace else. Did you ever feel tempted to want to play that style yourself? Play with the third,

00:32:38.060 - 00:32:49.900

you know, with the symphony orchestra or something? Rashied Ali: Well, well, I never had a chance Frank Kofsky: to play. But, I mean, did you ever think about it? Well, I've thought

00:32:49.900 - 00:33:03.420

Rashied Ali: about it. Yeah, I've thought about it, playing with strings, you know. But then at the same time, you can do some things with strings that. Well, you can't, you can't say, well, bird was playing very played the

00:33:09.360 - 00:33:23.360

strings, but they didn't call that third string. It was on the same order. But don't we use Frank Kofsky: it more or less like popular Do you think that one of the reasons why third string music isn't more popular

00:33:23.360 - 00:33:34.820

with younger musicians is because it's going in a different direction than the African direction that we talked about earlier. Rashied Ali: Well, then it's not, let's see, it's not going

00:33:34.820 - 00:33:48.760

in a different Frank Kofsky: direction. It isn't no because Rashied Ali: it's really playing. I mean, like the rhythm. See, first of all, music can't get away from rhythm. And

00:33:48.760 - 00:34:01.300

that rhythm, when the rhythm is pronounced, because in some of that music is very pronounced. You know, they don't play like away from me. They play a lot in Frank Kofsky: meter. You mean, the third, third string.

00:34:01.300 - 00:34:21.680

Rashied Ali: People the rhythm is associated with Africa, very much rhythm that's always going to be a pronounced thing. Frank Kofsky: Some writers have said that the new music, the music of the younger musicians, doesn't have any form. It

00:34:21.680 - 00:34:39.800

doesn't have any structure so on. Do you think that these statements are accurate? Definitely not. Rashied Ali: Well, actually, man, at least if these Kees that said this thing about not having form, if they could take their

00:34:39.800 - 00:34:57.820

self and see how much form they have, you know, and what they're doing, then they would be able to take the form and this music, because that gets only whatever, whatever individual thinks about what he's doing,

00:34:57.820 - 00:35:14.400

and he puts it together. And on a whole, like, a group all get together and they would all form this kind of thing. Actually, it actually has a form, but it doesn't, it doesn't have a thing where they could, when they can define it in a 12 bar sequence,

00:35:14.400 - 00:35:31.100

like, like, maybe they did the blues. They like, they heard, they heard, they heard this shit Sung. So they got it down into 12 bars. Man, where they can, but they right now, at this point, they haven't been able to write it out. So they scream, no

00:35:31.100 - 00:35:48.880

form. But then, if you dig it again on this, on this, Coleman music has been discussed in publicly because it was downbeat and it was a form, definitely a clear form shown. So how could they say it's no form?

00:35:49.240 - 00:36:03.300

Frank Kofsky: Maybe, maybe they're hostile because they're opposed to some of in addition to being opposed to the musical ideas, maybe they're opposed to the social and political ideas of some of the younger musicians, especially if these

00:36:03.300 - 00:36:15.420

are white critics and black musicians. Do you think that that's possible? Rashied Ali: Well, it's always been that way. It's always been that way white critics black musicians.

00:36:16.980 - 00:36:29.360

Frank Kofsky: Has it always been the white critics are, for the most part, opposed to the ideas of the black musicians at first, because they're not most of the time, because they come from a different environment and they don't understand what the music

00:36:29.360 - 00:36:41.920

is trying to do. Rashied Ali: Well, let's say they're not accustomed to hearing like birds. Ship them up Charles. Frank Kofsky: Now it's happening all over

00:36:41.920 - 00:36:52.780

Rashied Ali: again. Now it's happening again. But, you know, they never really got over Charlie Parker, yet they're still trying to dig birds, and that's why they really down. And everything else different. You know, they felt like, you know,

00:36:52.780 - 00:37:05.400

we're just finally getting to this movie, man, it's something else. We can't use it. Frank Kofsky: I remember when Charlie Parker died, the magazines were all full of who's going to Henze, new bird. And

00:37:05.400 - 00:37:16.320

what these writers were saying without realizing it was that bird had lived. He would just continue to play the same old music that he had played them. But that's not necessarily true. Bird would probably have tried to grow and hear what the new

00:37:16.440 - 00:37:38.600

bird was innovative. Man make maybe an Einstein. I use prop Rashied Ali: because I feel like this is one of my highest forms in a living person you see because, like, bird definitely had something to say, and he spoke to a lot of

00:37:42.020 - 00:37:56.320

Frank Kofsky: people. Do you think that artists have a responsibility to educate their audience other than by their music? Do you think you have responsibility to educate your

00:37:56.320 - 00:38:12.120

audience other than by playing your music, by playing besides, by playing. This is Rashied Ali: what I'm doing now, okay, I'm trying to tell them Frank Kofsky: like it isn't yeah to you who are the most

00:38:12.180 - 00:38:46.360

important musicians in these newer styles, if you care to commit yourself on Rashied Ali: that Well, I have a lot of to talk about you. Yeah, okay, talk about

00:38:47.560 - 00:38:58.540

Frank Kofsky: that's what, you know. That's what most of the musicians have said. You know, they say there's so many people that they couldn't really begin to run it down. I have four simple biographical type questions to ask you where you

00:38:58.540 - 00:39:15.240

were born and raised? You were born and raised in Philly? Yes. And how old are you? And what's your educational background? Rashied Ali: Well, I didn't make it out of high school, but I finished my education in army and came out of the army and

00:39:15.240 - 00:39:34.640

went to a business college to work IBM machine, and then quit, started going to music Frank Kofsky: school. Do you have anything that you want to

00:39:34.640 - 00:39:50.800

get on this tape that I haven't asked you yet, because that's the end of my the prepared questions. So I want to know if Rashied Ali: I may not have touched on everything. Maybe we can talk about something. I think it was sure. I think it

00:39:50.800 - 00:40:12.780

was something at the beginning of those questions that we were talking. Want to see the list again. Yeah. Yeah. I. Frank Kofsky: Okay, you.