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Unknown: The first question I wanted to ask you was about the phrase the new black music. Some writers have used that phrase to describe some of the newer styles, and I wondered what you thought of when you heard that phrase, whether you thought it

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was a good description black music. What do you mean by new black music? Well, that's what I'm asking you, really, do you think that that's a good description of the new music? Say, the music

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that you and John play, or that Archie plays that's trying to be, that's all i That's all I can like, that's all I can do. So you don't think that's a particularly good way of

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describing the new music. I just want to speak of it as being what I got something else going on I don't know anything about. Actually, it's Leroy Jones's phrase. He's used it in a number

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of places. That's Lew Jones, yeah, well, that's what I want. I want to know whether you thought that was accurate. But I don't know, you know, I can't really, you know, I don't really use it, you know. I don't think I can say music, music is

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music. Do you think that this thing is for everybody? You don't have anything color, because, to me, it's all color. There's some people you know, sort of unbalanced. Do you think this music has any political or social

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implications, then it's saying something about the society the way we live today. It's all about life. For example, some writers, I mean, some musicians, have said that

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this music is a music that is opposed to suffering and is opposed to poverty and as opposed to oppression. Do you find that to be true? They say that because of the own they own life, some people play music and never have

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suffered. So therefore, that's only I can like look at maybe they're opposed to the suffering of others, even if they haven't suffered themselves.

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But it's all really you know how much time you put in with yourself. What do you mean when you said, you said, like, some people feel like, if you never, like, suffered in the like, plate,

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well, not necessarily that you haven't suffered personally, but that even if you haven't, you're opposed to the suffering of other people. I mean, I feel like this, like, in order, like a final truth

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about what you're trying to do, you're gonna have to, have to struggle. Now it's right in the open. Is that struggle? Does that come out in the music? Can you hear

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the struggle in the music? Well, you know, I it? Well, I guess it's, you know, it's all the way you really feel about you.

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Feel like you have struggled, you know? I guess they'll come out and don't just, what do you feel personally? I just feel. I just feel what's within myself. It's only I can feel. I can't feel anything outside. It's not me.

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What is in yourself? Have you struggled? I think I have like Leo. I think I'm trying to live like trying to think that I have done, you know, kind of the better that

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that I did. What stands in the way of you, in the way of you living the way you want to live. What are the obstacles? Just

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not really. What do you mean? Well, you said, you said you're trying to, you know, all, that's what I'm trying to have. Like, do it do, like myself, like self discipline and may not the real

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Nixon junk you know, talking about, really, about, in terms of God, bring out that, not trying to put it back on me, but bring it out and make it bring it out and make it

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turn in. My direction, turn, turn in turns. And when I say, like, bring it out, I'm still talking about the surface, like the tapes, right, trying to bring it out again,

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up in space, back to me again, out again, continuously. Malcolm X was a close friend of many jazz musicians and a lover

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of jazz. Do you think that that's accidental, or do you think that it's significant in some way? I haven't really got great up on I haven't really read anything. You know, I was born like Bob, but I never heard

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him speak. You never heard him speak. You never saw him on television. I may have I saw, I saw about film, not too much.

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Why should it happen to do it? That's what I wanted to know. I think they had you think they have some do it like the music? Do I think so? I mean, you asked me, everything, do it to me, that's right.

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What do you think? I don't know. I think you know. I believe. I think everything, you know, everything is everything has some you know. Nothing is anything.

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Do you ever talk about political or social issues? I don't talk to people. Sometimes I try to just state to myself, I don't really try to talk to anybody. Well, when Rasheed was here, what do you ever talk about

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these things with him? No, he live his own life. I live my life. We try to play together, try to play with one another, not for each other. When musicians are together, what do they talk

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about? Well, you know, I'm not. I'm not that kind of, you know, I'm like this. If I go out anytime, I don't care if it's day or night, if they talk about something worthwhile, constructed

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something I want to hear, then I might stand there, but they talk about something else, I'm gone. What would you consider worthwhile and constructive? You know, only thing I can like see is talk about his, talk about his, talk about man. Talk about

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what is. What is he? Only I can like say, God is man. Man is God. Some musicians have said that the new music, or jazz music, is opposed to what the United States is doing in Vietnam. Do

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you have any opinions on that subject? Some musicians have said that jazz, the music, is opposed to what the United States is doing in Vietnam. Do you have anything to say about that? I don't know anything about the music.

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You play it well. I don't really consider words being jazz like only I'm trying to like present this Well, you talk. My garden, I look at music. Look at

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his beat being music, pure jazz is like, means type of music, more or less like booster music, like people drinking and talking bad language, sex, that kind of like Lush. That's jazz, okay, well, let's cause myself. You know, I

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never have like nothing jazz people do that. You know, those left when I got what whoever like was like you said, like jazz, that's what you

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look at it, right? I look at it now, like, in terms of music, we play like jazz, well, I call it that. I caught lots of things. All

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I have to do just talk about what's going on. So like music, and then either the person like the music done well. So like jazz, if it's not music, jazz, well, we talk about lots of different kinds of music,

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though we call sometimes the music. We call European music, African music, Asian music. It's just like everything. The more names of things you know, the better your A. That's, you know, it's like that, you know, might have

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something, okay. Now, you said, like, after me, okay, what I am one, where I come from? My original Well, my ancestors came from, where you Okay? So are you playing African music now? Are

00:10:21.620 - 00:10:35.600

you playing music related? I try to play me whatever color I try to play me the same, whatever color you have. You try to play you just like you talking whatever you know, it's you, right,

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yes, yeah, that's right. Have you been interested? Well, oh, let me go back to the question. Do you have any personal opinions about I don't like, I don't see why I like, I like, I like, I like. To

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even see the person who really feels like, no, no, I feel feel it do all this Brahms, well, maybe Johnson feels that the black man should go over there and fight, because if he doesn't go over there and fight,

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he might stay here and fight it. So you know, this is Vietnam, and that doesn't make you happy either. I don't think it make you happy. Are you kidding?

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You think I like dropping napalm on people, but it's not, see this. This country is not really religious. It's like a place like India, Japan, you know, few places might be called people. You called the

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you're not trying to be more than man, just trying to be Charles. Love. Do you get some of your musical inspiration from these countries? Yes, people

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like Robert Shankland, Davies, Spanish, Spanish Tara. I see I listen to African rules.

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Do you listen to Western or European music to Listen to European. Too many. I heard some, some Western. I mean Western

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in the European I don't mean country of Western. I mean Western and as different from African or Asian. You know, I just heard it. You're not particularly interested in

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what I've been doing. You know, if I, if I hear, and if I to look for it. Yeah, I go out and look for some things. I is, how did you get interested in Africa and Asia music? I guess because of the history about myself and my ancestors. I

00:14:11.040 - 00:14:41.380

guess ever since, ever since then, I've been trying to find out about the word history. Me lamb, it's very important word to me, most important word right now, right now. That's what I do. I'm a historian. Thing

00:14:49.540 - 00:14:59.500

about, when did your interest in Africa and Asia begin? Do you remember there's an album like, in school, high school, I started, like.

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Johannes, how old are you now? 25 so that was about maybe 10 years ago or so, knew about 12 or 13? Do you ever talk about Africa or Asia with

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John? He mentioned, you know, because we, we feel, feel, it. You know, he's planning to make a trip to Africa to work on

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collecting some African things, especially music. Santa. William Brown, so I would like to go. Then I could see to myself, I read books, and still being on your feet, on put on lamb,

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But everything, it means quite a bit to you. Yeah, to do you ever think you'd like to live in Africa? Is your feeling for Africa part of the reason why you change your name from Pharaoh to Pharaoh? Oh, people change it

00:17:02.160 - 00:17:23.960

for you. Which do you prefer to be called? What I am, what are you man? So if I call you man, and how will how will you know to answer

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like, identify me, even like, spell my name two hours to sign my people name me from the Bible. He. PhD, my mother's mother name, from about

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they never been told me. They didn't spell it, I'm telling you right now, they didn't spell it. I'm taking right now. They make it from the Bible.

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So it was spelled, yeah, I thought it was just a recent change, but it wasn't. It goes back quite a bit, even, even that name, even the found out is it's an angel name, meaning nature,

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man, woman, was your family interested in Africa too? Or was that did you come there? You know, even, even, even even when I was small, then somehow people look like they

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found in someone. Did your father ever talk to you about Africa? No. Did anybody ever mention Marcus Garvey when you Marcus Garvey?

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Garvey was a man from the West Indies who had a movement to take black people in this country back to Africa in the 19 know, Malcolm

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X was very interested in Africa too. He made two trips there, and he was very proud of his African heritage. That was one of the things he stressed a lot, seeking myself. But you know, I feel like, if I can go to

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Africa, I feel like I can give people right kind of energy. You'll know about it firsthand. Yeah, you don't think that in this country, white people generally know the

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truth I'm talking about for myself. Me find out for myself. I believe what I see. Do you think in the music that you play? Group I promise group

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improvisation is becoming more important. That is two horns or two instruments playing at once, the soloing at once, like you and John did at that last number on the concert last Friday night. Do you think that this is something that is new, or

00:20:57.220 - 00:21:18.960

something that is becoming more important in the music should become more important. Should be very much just, just a way of life, everybody. It's like we sitting here

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talking and something everything is everything, because everything is live. You think it's more natural to play that way? I think it's more natural

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John plays by his life, by his own way. I don't care whatever you whatever he does. You know, he's gone by his own way. Somebody's playing and they they talk about what they believe in. There's got to be got the

00:21:58.720 - 00:22:12.300

one. If you heard many of the other newer groups, like, say, Archie's group, or some of the others. Do they plug? They do seem to do the same kind of thing, of group improvisation, playing at once the ways I don't

00:22:13.920 - 00:22:33.260

know, I don't know how they feel, but it's really like the person, like, in general, how you feel. I don't care only I can say about other people and myself and everything, long as the music clean inside and out, then it's alright with me. I

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don't care what you do. You can play with knife toys. Really Mean that's important. That's really important to me,

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get around, like work with, talk with whatever may be. Why do you put so much importance on that? Because I tried, I like see myself.

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I try to accept things. But the only reason I'm Yes, learn about man, about man about to learn about God, because nothing else I feel like God deserves. I feel like not me.

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It's not talking about God, and nothing else matters. I feel like God deserves, but you have to be clean inside out. I noticed that many of the new groups don't have a piano, and even in some of the groups that do have a piano, sometimes the

00:24:06.060 - 00:24:18.120

piano doesn't play when the horns are playing. Is this what you observe too? Well, no, no. I mean, it's just just looking around at the

00:24:18.120 - 00:24:42.320

different of the newer groups that are playing now. Is this, you see the same thing going on that is, some people don't use piano. Next time I see them using piano, so I think you know, wherever you know, whoever you

00:24:42.320 - 00:24:56.740

start from. Still, it's gonna come back the other way. You know, I think it's good like to go through a lot of change, then be like to come back restart. Do you like to have the piano playing behind you or not?

00:24:59.800 - 00:25:14.040

You. It really, don't really matter, because it's not, you know, it's on, you know, I mean somebody like playing piano, just, you know, everything is everything. It doesn't interfere.

00:25:14.040 - 00:25:34.760

More more more more instruments, more music, more you makes me more musical. Talk more about everything so you don't have any it doesn't interfere with you what you're

00:25:34.760 - 00:25:48.460

doing. It's a piano player playing, no, shouldn't it's always talking about the circle that's on things you you like to try to talk about, here's a circle in a circle. You know,

00:25:54.280 - 00:26:25.760

I want to be creative. That's when I play. I'm not trying to like to fix myself, to hold myself back, to trying to expand myself, playing so I can go much further. I try to meditate So is there something in particular that you try to communicate with

00:26:25.760 - 00:26:52.180

the audience when you play some idea or some feeling, feeling, I get a I get a feeling when I'm like, in front of the audience, sometimes more, I get a feeling like, playing, you know, University, University

00:26:54.460 - 00:27:14.520

sound carries very, very fast vibration. I don't quite a few. Yeah, quite a few. Do you have any comments about working conditions for musicians like yourself?

00:27:14.520 - 00:27:36.740

I feel like you know relationships. You know is what I like. Maybe it looks more like illusion, where it's not the way it should be. How do you mean it's not the way it should be?

00:27:38.960 - 00:27:58.660

Well, it should be a big thing in all countries. I feel. Countries. You mean the music. Music is right medicine, the right medicine for what sounds you mean to change the

00:27:58.660 - 00:28:22.980

world somehow. And we are this. Discipline the people, bring them close together. There's more musician playing and trying to play about those vibrations by the people.

00:28:23.360 - 00:28:39.920

Should. That's important too, and that is also important. That's very important. Very important that everybody should try to have some music, even like small kids. Henze, small I think

00:28:41.240 - 00:28:58.480

raising kids was good, baby school, having to take some kind of music until they get a certain age. Really wanted to, because they like discipline their

00:29:02.680 - 00:29:15.300

mind. Oh. Even if they start at the early age, maybe about four or 513, years old, then they might decide through rhythm musician, whatever,

00:29:16.800 - 00:29:33.920

do you do you know, or do you think you have any reasons why conditions for musicians aren't any better than they are now. You felt much about that, yeah. Well, that's part of it. I mean, even the ones who do work on people

00:29:35.300 - 00:30:01.440

in general, you know, mostly things to be like fighting, like knowledge, different legends and things like this, let a lot of effect on people as they grew up to age on the. Up.

00:30:01.560 - 00:30:43.420

Thing is called, like rhythm, but God's purpose is disturb. Purpose, everybody, find the highest people themselves, come back to themselves and try to Lew and their own temple. So I try to,

00:30:48.460 - 00:31:08.640

just try to be appalled, to read, you know, and just be just try to present something. And this lock itself in. Some people call it a bag. I'm trying to get out of the bag,

00:31:10.080 - 00:31:31.700

trying to get in nobody's bag. I don't know anything about that. I worry about what people said. Also, even, like little, little things keep me away from people talking against, I find my worst enemy is myself. That's what I'm trying to by myself. I know what

00:31:31.700 - 00:31:57.340

to do. Talk to people. Do you want? Do you want to play in life, clubs? Why not really. The music is

00:32:01.180 - 00:32:26.060

not really, but my idea is really trying to play about by myself, in terms of within myself, talking about, the more the more highly things about life, the more spiritual. Lew, don't have any anything doing, like, drinking, talking.

00:32:30.980 - 00:32:53.860

Where would you like to be able to play your music? I'd like to play best concerts that people like respect to one another quiet. They come like plenty

00:32:56.140 - 00:33:10.740

of money to listen they want to like drinking. I Dragon, seeing people trying even, even even, you know, I've seen people like drinking control. They never talk.

00:33:10.740 - 00:33:27.260

Put it down. Minds and egos. Don't think, though, that a lot of people who go to nightclubs go to nightclubs because that's the only place where they can

00:33:27.260 - 00:33:50.980

hear the music. Linley, they really like myself. I don't prefer to I don't like to drink. I may have a beer. You don't think first, think first, whatever you before all that, you know, you know, you just, I

00:33:50.980 - 00:34:04.260

don't think people should just walk in place, if you see a friend or something. You know, I feel like maybe he got some said worthwhile. It

00:34:06.000 - 00:34:25.340

is cool. You know, it's all right. Since he don't get too loud, just be yourself. You don't have to like, I'm happy talking loud. That's no kind of respect. I don't want to bother anybody.

00:34:25.340 - 00:34:32.120

Don't you think that part of this is the fault of the nightclub owners who force the people to buy? Yeah, because they don't think. They don't think broad

00:34:32.120 - 00:34:50.560

enough. They think Lou. They're trying to sell as much liquor until they they try to message us the bottom is one the domestic abuse. Bacalao club is one. He's really the fault of the whole thing.

00:34:51.520 - 00:35:05.940

Whole club and the people music try to even like, tell them you did like, we just want to play. You and how long to play. You know, it's all controls. Control thing. It's already sex

00:35:05.940 - 00:35:23.420

playing so they can make your money, so they can make enough of themselves. Do you think that that interferes with the music whole lot? What about the reason why I don't like to play?

00:35:25.580 - 00:35:45.340

What about the recording industry? Do you feel that record companies also interfere with the musicians, long as I can be free to do what I want to do? I mean, if I'm big one. Somebody want to call me, I would foul that kind of thing.

00:35:45.340 - 00:35:59.500

Being in the club, whatever it's gonna be, I'm doing it. I don't look at it as interfering with me. Do they ever try and interfere with you play, or how long?

00:36:00.340 - 00:36:17.880

Well, you know, it's, it's all you know, according to what you got together, having the tunes you have, and how you want to play, how long he's been, like the So, longest tune, take it out.

00:36:20.220 - 00:36:37.940

Can you control it? Don't take that much, leave it in your hands. What about in a case where you cut an album, say, Now when it comes out, it isn't released. Now, when it's released two or

00:36:37.940 - 00:36:53.980

three years later, and it doesn't tell them anything like what you sound like now, does that bother you? Should bother me because I'm trying to that's the idea of me living, living, trying to better my condition, trying to improve

00:36:56.500 - 00:37:22.040

everything that I do, most of all, actually very it's not, it's not, you know, it's really me as a person, not how much I might, I might be a lot of, a lot of a lot of notes last year this year, I might not play. I might be playing more like

00:37:22.040 - 00:37:57.700

sparing. It's not really how many notes, just person to improve himself. What where are we born? And did you spend your youth there? Well, what's your educational background? What is your

00:37:57.700 - 00:38:15.780

educational background? I was 59 I went to, went to California. So you did. Where did you live

00:38:17.220 - 00:38:39.560

in Oakland, California. I went to college about a year in Oakland City College. Yeah, yeah. I know that I lived in Berkeley. Yeah. Did you know A fellow named John Burke when you were in the piano thing? That's the Pharaoh he always was

00:38:39.560 - 00:38:54.520

talking about. He looked, look some No, no, maybe last time he had blue eyes, he's blue eyes. Yeah, he's a little shorter than I am. His teeth were in bad shape because he never took care of them. And he was very ridiculous. You know, I never

00:38:54.520 - 00:39:07.920

really, once did I have a chance to hear him play a session in Berkeley on north side. You know, whatever happened to him, that was what he would call Little Rock, wasn't it? He came in one night. Used to, you know, a lot of people used to come

00:39:07.920 - 00:39:18.180

over, and we, sometimes we had ribs, and he likes, he came over and he said, Well, Miller, who's this tenor player in Oakland. His name is Little Rock, and he plays, you know, more tenor than anybody else around that was you. And I think he called you

00:39:18.240 - 00:39:29.600

Farah too. And I just filed that away in the back of my mind and never did anything more with it. And then all of a sudden, I started reading your name and down me, and I said, I wonder if this is the same guy, little you know, because I think Leroy, at

00:39:29.720 - 00:39:47.140

one point referred to you as Little Rock. Couldn't be the same guy, but it is. That's amazing. Give you, do you have any idea what happened to John? Yeah, I mean, where he is now, what he's doing, which was about 60 or 6161,

00:39:48.280 - 00:40:12.420

60, about 60. Yeah, he wasn't clean inside. I'm afraid I. He's from New York. Yeah, he was a he was one of these kids New York, from New York with 18 years old, has done everything and had

00:40:12.420 - 00:40:22.940

nothing more to learn, in a way, and so when he came to Berkeley, kind of just kind of went to pieces. There was no discipline. There no discipline from outside, no discipline from inside. So he tried to do everything at once, and it

00:40:22.940 - 00:40:32.960

seemed like he couldn't really do everything at once. That's the way it appeared to me. At least, I felt very sorry for him, because it didn't seem like he really knew who was old enough to know what he wanted to do. And he was doing so many

00:40:32.960 - 00:40:43.600

things that I was afraid he was going to hurt himself. I try to, you know, some people like write and like liking reviews. I mean, like, Now, some people,

00:40:44.980 - 00:40:57.760

I'm very spiritual, like the word religious, you know, I could use that even better. See, I'm trying to get to, like, those kind of things, like the heart of things, you know, I feel

00:41:00.460 - 00:41:16.980

the Arab music should be somewhat religious. Well, some of them, you know our religion, even they don't even know. Some they don't even try to try to come out and say, I believe

00:41:16.980 - 00:41:39.560

in this. Because long as a person you know heals, you know what? I think that's how you can go. I think that's really advanced. I say that

00:41:40.640 - 00:41:54.280

does being religious mean, then that you can't kill people, or you can't be mean to people, you can't oppress them? I feel like everybody

00:41:56.380 - 00:42:07.860

got their free will do they want to do. But it's not the only it's only the one creating. Would you consider saying, President Johnson, a religious man, I don't know.

00:42:08.940 - 00:42:24.620

What do you want? Can you think of anything good? You know, I believe people, aspect of I believe you can be, can be a man, won't be

00:42:25.700 - 00:42:34.760

so I guess he must be one to be what he is. I guess, I guess whatever you that's what he is. That's what you you see what's going on. Yeah,

00:42:37.640 - 00:42:52.300

a lot of people don't see what's going on, though. That's right. That's a tragedy of it all. Do you think of anything else that you want to get on this interview? No. Only thing I'm trying to tell you like I'm

00:42:52.300 - 00:43:08.580

trying to play about God not be man. Is God? Not be God as man that I mean, that can go on and on and never like stop. I believe that was always here, you know, before and always

00:43:10.680 - 00:43:29.120

knew me. I said anything, I don't leave anything wrong people do. They want to do. I feel that people sort of unbalance, not as bounded, but still they do they

00:43:30.080 - 00:43:42.260

want to do. What if they hurt you in doing it? What if somebody comes up hit you in the head with the club, say the guy's doing what he wants to do?

00:43:42.740 - 00:43:57.520

Hit me. I, you know, I don't know what, I don't know what to call a man. I mean, I need to say, with that hitting with the club, I don't think that's very I can't, I can't speak very high level,

00:43:58.960 - 00:44:13.620

whatever it was, whatever it is, because man, don't do it okay, because men are divine. If we realized what it was to be a man, I can agree with that man, it seems to make sense to me.

00:44:16.680 - 00:44:24.680

Okay, I'll shut this off and get out of your hair, unless there, if you don't have anything else, though, don't have anything else to okay, do.