00:00:00.420 - 00:00:21.980

Unknown: First of all, I want to get some of your background. Then I'll get into the questions about about music and things. So just roughly, let's see, could I ask you how long you've been working in the record business? It's all been a tower. Okay,

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right? And how old are you? 2525 and question of that nature was, have you been stalking at both towers for 20 for three years? No, I've been ordering jazz and classics at the North store for

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15 months and for both stores now for the past three months. Okay, I'll tell you what prompted me to ask you this in the first place, and that was remark you made the other day. I asked you why there wasn't any Gary Bart's at the North store,

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and you said, Oh, you had all three. You bought all three of his albums, but at the south store, where the brothers came in. So that prompted me to think that, first of all, there was a difference between how you stocked the two stores based on

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proximity to black areas, okay? And then the prompted me to ask you, in your observation, since you have to be responsible for ordering and ordering records, and you're concerned order records itself, well, let's, let's run one thing down. First,

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Proctor you in your as far as you've observed, what's the ratio of black people who come into the Broadway store, as opposed to the north store, people who come into people who buy jazz?

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Well, just I want to establish first of all the tower the South Tower, there's more black people, so yeah, by a factor of about what say, maybe for everyone who comes in north area, there's 10 who go in the south area. Yeah, if

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you want to establish ratios that way, I would establish them out of every customer, okay, in the north store, there's maybe one out of 15 is black, okay, whereas every customer in the Broadway store, I would say maybe better than

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better, yeah, because I noticed that there's a big soul section in right. Okay, so that that establishes the fact tower definitely does have a sizable black clientele. Now we get into the question of who's buying jazz, and specifically who's

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buying people like Gary Bartz, Coltrane, Tara Sanders and so on. Gary Bart's relatively new on the scene, yeah. Well, I didn't mean specifically him. I just meant who's buying,

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who's buying? That would be that would, you know, the younger person, say, below the age of 25 I'd have to say, if I were to set it cut

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off, it's hard to generalize that, but at the same time, you'll find cats 3540 who are into the older thing, who are buying new coal train as well as old green coal train, to pick it up. And some of the younger cats will buy the new coal train and

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will then come back and pick up the older things to find out what they missed. Maybe they don't completely understand the new don't feel a part of it, but definitely the younger audience is buying

00:03:48.340 - 00:04:10.500

Coltrane. Well, that's like Farrow say, Alice, Coltrane, artichoke. Can you make any as far as the black clientele who buy those records go well, all right, let's talk about that. First of all, you said that more than half, or approximately half

00:04:10.500 - 00:04:22.820

of towers customers on Brighton the Broadway store, are black. Is that also true for purchasing the specific what's the ratio here? Well, when I say half the customers are black, then you

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have to come down back to who buys a lot of the black customers just come in and check it out, right? I've seen that try to listen to it over the set whatever they can't afford it. So maybe only one out of every three albums is going out of

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there goes to a black person. Okay, right? And maybe only Okay, out of that third, you'd have to say that half of that third is sole, or more than half, so you jazz is going to be little less than a sixth all the records going

00:04:55.540 - 00:05:14.220

out well. What I really meant was, if total, say, a black Scout, for a third. Are the total sales of the store? Do they what fraction do they the jazz sales? Do they account for just of the jazz, just as jazz, 85% please? Maybe 90, I don't

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know. It'd have to be that. So in other words, yeah, relatively speaking, is very little white purchasing of Jazz, Jazz, right? If there any white purchasing, there's either

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somebody who identifies with the blacks, who's around our age group, who is buying these things, or somebody 45 and so forth is picking up some old Benny Goodman reissue things. Benny Goodman, Linley, Armstrong, or whatever, all the

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way down the line. Glen Miller, Woody Herman in the in the specifically new music in things like Pharaoh and Alice and Archie, is that there's also that same proportion of black scamper, oh, 80 or 90% of the purchase of

00:05:54.520 - 00:06:07.560

those signs, no, who, what's, what's the background there? I would, it's hard to say. I would say that would be closer to 50% white and black, because the kids, the white people who are

00:06:07.560 - 00:06:16.440

buying that from around the same age as the black kids who are buying it there, it's they concentrate there. They really do. You know, they aren't. They aren't going to

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pick up the Woody Herman side when they see the, you know, the new miles Davies sitting there, right? But the, I guess you took Korea, you know. So the black jazz buying is more more Catholic. In other words,

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it goes over a wider range, I guess. And maybe there's more things like, oh, pop jazz, right? Your Grover Washington, Johnny Hans Smith, right? You're still into your Boogaloo. Things got the

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Boogaloo. You know, nothing avant garde about it. Maybe the solos might leave the chord changes here and there, but that's all and a lot of that sells to the same people who would buy your king Curtis and your other you know, your Ray

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Charles and Aretha and so forth. What do you suppose happens to that music after it leaves the store. That's speculative. I know gets played at a party some night. I don't know if

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anybody ever gets into this. That's my conception, too. It's a good fad for a month or two, and then that's it, until record wears out, right? I think that's probably always been the case. I don't think

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it's musicians that are buying those things. No, you know, it might be black people, but not music. I think the pop oriented jazz, probably even Eugene Hans now and stuff like that, is pop, my way, his latest

00:07:32.300 - 00:07:48.880

album, my way. And there is, there are, there is a market for that. I guess probably the market for that is bigger than market for serious, serious, or whatever you want to call it the other kind of jazz.

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Simply, yes, but how can I say this? It is because there aren't that many people who are really into jazz. However, the people that are into jazz, the ratio of them who buy these records that they want, compared to the people who are just into

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Boogaloo, who look at the Boogaloo, you know, they don't buy it, any kind of ratio, compared to the people who are into the jazz. Oh, that's interesting. You mean they're more the people who are

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into jazz are more dedicated. Really. They see a new side. They want it. They'll Hawk their room right to get the new mine right, right, whereas the other cattle go out and try to push his chick, maybe to get some

00:08:38.360 - 00:08:54.220

bugs up, whatever to buy it Grover Washington. What have you observed about the people who can you make any or have you observed anything about the people who are buying Grover Washington versus people who are buying the new miles or the new

00:08:54.220 - 00:09:08.160

Alice Coltrane? I mean, like as a parent, from the way they dress, there's an economic difference there, or that maybe there's an educational difference there, the way they dress, there's a difference. I don't know if it's

00:09:08.160 - 00:09:23.780

that much economic. They're trying to be classy on the outside, the people who buy Grover Washington, whereas the people who buy the miles Davies and John Coltrane are worried about the inside. Are concentrating on the inside.

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That sort of goes along with the Grover Washington being party music. You're into display. That's the difference as far as the dress goes, not economics, I don't know. Well, I don't know if that has much bearing on

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whether or not a cat is into jazz and really is into the fundamental what's happening. Otherwise, you haven't observed that to be very Yeah, that was one of the questions I've been instructed to ask

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economics. Well, let me get you the exact. I'll eliminate some of the superfluous verbiage. Why is there a scarcity of avant garde jazz uptown, Uptown here, being used for the black community? Is

00:10:13.380 - 00:10:34.520

there a class rift within the black community? What scarcity? Well, he says there's no avenue guard jazz among Black people. I guess he means playing in clubs. Is there a class riff within the black community? Well, based on what he himself observed, okay,

00:10:35.540 - 00:10:50.860

talk about that a little bit. Well, there is Avenue jazz being played in the clubs in the area, okay, whereabouts, in everybody's house? Well, that's true. You got you put me on a paper in Sacramento. There isn't

00:10:50.860 - 00:11:04.980

much, yeah, but, I mean, there's more people thinking of like our jazz than people who just want to go and jam in a club and play through some old things. Oh, yeah. His question is, why? Why it isn't in the club? And of

00:11:04.980 - 00:11:21.680

course, the answer to that is why Grover Washington probably sells more than Gary Bart say, or if, yeah, there's, there's two different things here. A club is used either for a concert or for for a party or dance. Either go to

00:11:21.680 - 00:11:49.540

participate and become engulfed in this thing, or you go to take this thing in and wrap it over in your head. I know, I know he does have does have a point in that avant garde jazz isn't hurting

00:11:49.540 - 00:11:59.440

clubs much from this standpoint that there isn't that much acceptance of it. Therefore, it's not a selling item, and a club has to have something that sells. You know, that's their whole business.

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Yeah. Well, of course, one of them, one of the questions is, then, why isn't it accepted? And I would argue there that one of the big reasons is lack of exposure, and I can pretty much document this. I mean, yeah, I've clipped things out of trade

00:12:15.300 - 00:12:29.840

papers. Interview with a guy who runs kbca, which is all jazz station in LA and talking about how horrible John Coltrane's music became in the 1960s Well, that's what he feels. And he's white, by the way, because all this, all the station owners are

00:12:29.840 - 00:12:41.360

white. They determine what the black community. And KBC has enormous listenership, if that's how he feels about Coltrane and and he runs a station that's obvious that you're not gonna hear much Coltrane. And you know, you don't hear any Cecil

00:12:41.360 - 00:12:54.820

Tara, you don't hear any Archie. Chef, you don't hear any of people he considers unmelodic or unpretty. Here is a lot of coal train imitating John Clemmer, and there may be some Charles Lou and that kind of stuff. So I would say that the exposure just

00:12:54.820 - 00:13:10.200

simple, simple exposure. And on the am stations, of course, it goes on saying you never hear anything, nothing. So that being the case, that people can't be expected to like what they've never heard, really, and they don't determine what they hear.

00:13:10.200 - 00:13:23.060

Somebody who owns a statement, you get many customers who are browsing in the store, and they they've gone down the rock aisle, and the cat's over in the jazz section, and you walk up, can I help you? He says. He says, I

00:13:23.060 - 00:13:35.180

want to buy something different that I don't have, and then I don't go over other people's house and hear it all the time. So you start pointing out a few genocides. The first thing he says, Well, what's it sound like? I've never heard it. And

00:13:35.180 - 00:13:45.520

we don't have listening facilities in the room that's supposed to be the object of radio. Yeah. And yet they don't cover their Oh, no. They cover very narrow spectrum, really.

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Why? What can we do about it? Well, one thing I think could be done about it is when they rip off sights and give them the Legrand to play on Sunday afternoon. Yeah, that's part of

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it. It isn't just that the records aren't accessible to them, though, so that even if they give them the records, they won't play them. They're not accountable. Basically, it's the same way the newspapers aren't accountable. Newspapers can

00:14:06.180 - 00:14:20.660

print any kind of rot that they choose about anybody, just about and get away with it. There's my in my view stations that have a large and black listening well, take Kees Avenue has a large white listenership. It has to be pretty young. Has to be pretty

00:14:20.660 - 00:14:33.020

responsive to me. If it starts playing Guy Lombardo, it's nowhere. And presumably, you know, there were ways of making a discontent felt have to be means found for stations that are aimed into the black community, of holding them

00:14:33.020 - 00:14:44.500

accountable for what they play. Because they're not only station. Have to have to project itself or subject itself to one separate community. Why can't it? Charles, oh, in general, I guess, of

00:14:44.920 - 00:14:56.140

the cut of mile Davies, miles Davies, and then go to cut of James Taylor, and then go to a cut of Pink Floyd, and then, yeah, sure, maybe there wouldn't be any continuity of the program. Do you have to have continuity of programming? No.

00:14:56.140 - 00:15:07.920

Weldon, yeah, just exposure. What's happened? Of course, you. Times I've been at Kees am and we've been playing jazz as you get calls. The thing is a commercially successful operation. People who are

00:15:07.920 - 00:15:18.540

operating it dislike interfering with it. So if you've got a station, a sol station, and you start throwing in James Taylor cuts, then the people who own that station are afraid that they're going to lose their advertisers, and they lose their

00:15:18.540 - 00:15:27.440

audience and their advertisers. And interestingly enough, I guess that also applies for throwing in John Cole us throwing in John Coltrane cuts, because they would no sooner throw in a John Coltrane cut than they would the James Taylor

00:15:28.580 - 00:15:42.220

cut. What that's about is that they are unwilling to jeopardize something that seems to be working. They're unwilling to innovate. So I think case like that, they'd have to be made to innovate, and the easiest way to do in a case of a soul station,

00:15:42.280 - 00:15:53.920

is by having a delegation of very heavy black people go there and say, Well, look, you know, you are beaming into our community, and you are aiming selectively in us. So therefore you should be accountable to us to some degree, or else we're

00:15:53.920 - 00:16:07.980

just going to become your robots. But ideally, of course, you know, if radio stations were run, ideally, sure that there should be that diversity, that it's just got to be tried, is what you're saying. It has to be

00:16:07.980 - 00:16:19.260

innovative. Yeah, I would. I don't. I don't understand, really, your points of pressure as far as a group of black school, I don't know how far that would get. Well, see a souls thing, it's got to be done by the jock himself. Just kind

00:16:19.260 - 00:16:29.840

of slip something by when FCC isn't, it's not the FCC, it's a station owner, the man the station owner isn't see because Kees app used to be pretty open in that direction. And then, as they sort of find out, they could

00:16:29.840 - 00:16:45.760

start to make money, even they tighten up a lot and a number of respects, like their news coverage and so on. I mean, they got somewhat more. How shall I say this? They didn't be, they weren't as free swinging. Yeah, free swinging. Well, they used

00:16:45.760 - 00:16:55.780

to be. Some of their public events. Coverage used to be pretty wild. I mean, they editorialized with the news and so forth. They found out they were making money, and they became they didn't want to jeopardize that, so they

00:16:55.780 - 00:17:08.340

started. Well, let's think about this now, and we'll be very careful about what we play and what we say so some, in other words, all I'm saying is some way, there has to be some way of finding, of exerting pressure, and the kind of way that you

00:17:08.340 - 00:17:24.500

find is going to depend on who you know, who you're trying to exert pressure on. In the case of a soul station, which is aimed at Black people more than white, seems like we don't have a soul station. So we know, we know, right? I'm talking the

00:17:24.500 - 00:17:36.020

abstract. In general, most large cities, Sacramento, where do we start? There's a isn't there something in Marysville or something like that? K Pop, but I think they only play soul from like six o'clock

00:17:36.080 - 00:17:49.060

till, yeah, when they sign off. So during the rest of the day they play mom's music in Sacramento. Kees app, really, as far as the FM goes, I'm sure the Kees app has an enormous listenership and and there

00:17:49.060 - 00:18:00.040

again, they're not, they're not even we they don't even attempt, I think, to cover black music in any kind of way, so that they're remiss, from the standpoint they don't play any jazz, they'll play much blue.

00:18:00.040 - 00:18:11.700

Previous thing we've had is that Kees week, right? Yeah, all the black chocolate took over the station. So there, I mean, for them to play all soul music would be an improvement, because at least, I mean, they would be

00:18:11.700 - 00:18:19.740

acknowledging the existence of black performers. It would be an improvement in that sense. But to play also, no, I don't mean all soul music, but I mean, if they played, they

00:18:19.740 - 00:18:29.900

played compared to playing all white music. Now they play white music Hans, it would be better than playing, right, no black music and all ideas to expand the mind, right? That's the whole

00:18:29.900 - 00:18:40.220

idea of avant garde, yeah, to move music and have music move you. And the thing is, it comes down to people, the people who operate those things are afraid of trying to expand. People

00:18:40.220 - 00:18:52.120

afraid that it won't work immediately, or that it will work immediately, I don't know. And they don't want to interfere with anything. That seems to be a good thing. It works now. So don't knock it, you know. Don't rock the boat. Don't rock the

00:18:52.120 - 00:19:01.380

boat, really. And they have the stripes. They have the stripes Exactly. They own it. That's the whole thing about ownership. If you own it, then you can, you

00:19:01.440 - 00:19:17.400

dictate how it gets run. So the question that about the economic differences, about who buys jazz, that's his next question, basically, is there a class rift within the black community? It's a preference for the avant garde, as opposed to preference

00:19:17.400 - 00:19:24.980

for groove Holmes or Ramsey Lewis or Grover Washington, I guess is, what do you mean class with economic Yeah, that's what's saying. This is like working class blacks

00:19:24.980 - 00:19:40.180

like Grover Lewis, but middle class blacks like Pharaoh Sanders. I don't think there's any economic bearing whatsoever. The only, the only way economics enters into it is how much is

00:19:40.180 - 00:19:58.060

sold, right? You know, not what is sold? Do you have any idea? My own guess is that there's probably more correlation between going to college, say, and what do you listen to, than there might be between economics and they say,

00:19:58.060 - 00:20:13.800

if a cat is out, the cat. In college if you become exposed to more things, and maybe it's the potential intellectuals who are buying, the people who want to have their minds expanded who are buying, not that they're all in college by now, I'm not

00:20:13.800 - 00:20:25.880

saying that, but I mean maybe the students, maybe it's students who are buying among the young people you're pretty close to maybe they aren't all in college, but they all circulate around the college, the College crowd,

00:20:25.880 - 00:20:39.440

right? That's your, that's your, your head again. Whereas, say, the guy who's out, you know, like working and partying, and he's just working in these partying and probably not, maybe having time or interest in reflecting on

00:20:39.440 - 00:20:51.580

things, he may be more into the Grover Washington. You can party music and go over to Mr. D's over here in London and catch somebody, but you have to go out to the Davies campus to catch cannonball.

00:20:53.620 - 00:21:06.480

Though, interestingly enough, you know, when I brought out the things that were going on next couple of weeks in my black music class the blacks, they said, well, we just want to, couldn't we just, you know, like, right up going to Mr. D

00:21:06.480 - 00:21:22.460

actually said the Maja and Dave soul center. And I got a little annoyed at that, because Dave, so I played some of it. But they were older blacks too. I mean, there was a thing like, well, we don't want to be bothered to go do anything out of

00:21:22.460 - 00:21:38.900

our normal routine the Monday night tomorrow, mind, yeah, they want to go to that right? Didn't want to go here and do Gillingham. They just want to go here. It's one to go down the bar and drink. And at the Mallea, you got Group A, and

00:21:38.900 - 00:21:54.160

the Dave soul center, you got Group B, and they're there, and it's more, it's easier to do that. I don't have any comments you're right on also. I mean, it's like, um, it's familiar turf, and you don't

00:21:54.160 - 00:22:03.360

have to go get dressed up or go to some place, you know, like Davies and, well, I don't even dress up for dick. I know, neither. But I mean, maybe, you know, maybe

00:22:03.360 - 00:22:13.140

they look at a different way. Maybe they think that you have to do, you have to drill precisely. You know, you're going on foreign turf, and it's just not, not as comfortable, or it's gonna cost more money, or you can't drink. I mean, we go

00:22:13.140 - 00:22:35.960

to Davies can't drink because they're not gonna serve drinks and get loose before you Yes. Do you have any other observations, who's who's doing the buying of some of the new music, or why, or any of

00:22:35.960 - 00:22:51.280

any things we've been observation? Maybe that might be of interest is out at the North store, where you have the white jazz buying clientele, and you have these kids who are still in high school and the junior college too, who are very

00:22:51.280 - 00:23:06.060

influenced by the white teachers, instructors. A new kitten side comes out, or a new Buddy Rich side comes out, you get 10 of these kids racing down for it, but they'll bring it back because they don't really enjoy it after they've heard it

00:23:06.060 - 00:23:18.540

a couple of times. That's interesting. And they'll talk with you about what's happening, and you'll show them a few other sides, a mile side, or a new Randy Brecker or something, you know, anything, they'll take it home, and nine times out of 10,

00:23:18.540 - 00:23:28.100

they'll keep it, and they'll enjoy it because it's different from everything else that the 10 other cats bought. You know, everybody buys the Buddy Rich. Because the teacher said, the band teacher, is that it? Yeah,

00:23:28.220 - 00:23:40.960

right, right, yeah. You know the cat, who's 45 he was raised in Sacramento, and he's locked into Are you familiar with these cats? Les layer, I'm not, but, but he said they sound all sound like herb Harrison, who I am, right, right, right. That's what

00:23:40.960 - 00:23:54.640

they woody over at City College. They relate to that big man exclusively, and they just are not at all relate to having attended two years at Sac City and a couple years at a University of Michigan, maybe, oh, right. And

00:23:54.640 - 00:24:06.420

coming back and getting their masters right, and music education Right, right? And the bachelors in was in music at University of Minnesota or something. It was in marching

00:24:06.420 - 00:24:21.200

band, marching right? Yeah. They just don't understand anyway, anything that's happened since Welch is kind of busy, really, 18th century theory and so forth. Yeah, yeah. And yet they don't. They aren't really into classics.

00:24:21.440 - 00:24:33.200

No, they're not well, they're middle browse. You know, a lot of people who come out of oh, I mean, there's a myth about college and education, but mostly their middle brows, they're not really serious about anything except getting

00:24:33.200 - 00:24:43.840

paycheck, probably getting smashed on the weekend. A lot of they're into that, and so therefore they can't they're not really doing an adequate job, because they're not staying up with what's happening in their field, but they don't care. It's

00:24:43.840 - 00:24:59.920

a it's a secure gig, nobody, you're never gonna get fired from that's that's a real rut. Let me just hold this. We can go outside. That's a real rut in Sacramento that I noticed about five years.

00:25:00.000 - 00:25:13.140

Go when I was going to school and contemplating becoming a teacher, you know, going to another school to earn my Master's back east, a large university or something, trying to make it New York or whatever, on the road, and then having the

00:25:13.140 - 00:25:25.160

degree to fall back on so that you get a job back in your hometown, teaching. And that's what has happened with all of the instructors in this area, even, you know, even Butch is going to school. It's like

00:25:25.160 - 00:25:37.340

incest. You know, I personally don't think those degrees are worth a damn anyhow. I mean, I'd rather read itself into a malformed,

00:25:38.420 - 00:25:49.780

whatever you get so hung up worrying about the degree that, you know, you don't keep your chops up and you don't keep your mind up, you know, like, you know, I like pageant. He's playing Mr. D

00:25:49.780 - 00:26:00.720

plays Alto and, yeah, yeah. And I think that his teeth also teaches a grant. I think that his teaching is taking away from his playing.

00:26:04.740 - 00:26:18.780

Yeah, this, this, you know, you just have to put in so many hours a day. Yeah, that's, I know, I felt really, really fine. I was in the Air Force, and we were blown 10 hours a day. It was really nice. Now I pick up the horn at least an

00:26:18.780 - 00:26:38.000

hour a day now, just to keep chomps up, yeah, maybe 30 minutes of just straight practice up and down riffs and scales and whatever, you know, diminish theories, and then throw on aside real Louden Lou, you know, but even

00:26:38.000 - 00:26:47.800

that man, after an hour day you get your blood back of your lips. It's still not formed the way. Doesn't feel comfortable natural, because you're not on time, right? You're

00:26:50.980 - 00:26:58.960

still doing a lot of scuffling here and there, yeah, best thing do is get that's okay.