00:00:00.060 - 00:00:21.680

Unknown: It. He's as good as Charles. It's as good as Farrell, and no spinning and that clear classical tone of dolphies. Because he just for him to play in this man, this is absolutely the most just a waste. Did he want to play

00:00:21.680 - 00:00:34.580

always? He's very mercenary. He will do anything for money, and he knows the scuffle is impossible, because he's coaching out of anything, out of any chances he should have. He should be playing with Ruby, Hans, Werner, coy Tyler and

00:00:34.580 - 00:00:52.840

Elvin Jones, and those babies won't give him one break. They just won't. And if they we they weren't even let him on the stand to sit in ever heard of he's so soulful, he's so heavy, he's so good. Yeah, it's so heavy. Wow, wow. It was just

00:00:52.900 - 00:01:14.700

just not terrible for him here, man, we're stifled him in half. Just maybe make me sick to know that talent can be used. Really, David, David Cross was his name. Couldn't believe it. Couldn't just cannot believe my ears with putting plate flute,

00:01:14.700 - 00:01:28.040

that's his instrument and, well, it's one of his instruments, but it's just, you know, he does play like Dodie, it was to my to my opinion, was the best flower mall, you know, doesn't spit in this bit and whistle like rolling does, which is

00:01:28.040 - 00:01:38.720

beautiful, you know, sing along fine flower. Nobody plays in the classical tradition with that thick, gorgeous tone. Man in the low notes just quiver your inside. Oh yeah, he heard it. I heard it all over the house when he was

00:01:41.600 - 00:01:55.300

practicing the manic looking pretty low with the squirrel. I've been here not to be sent back, just in this bag. You know, he wants to know what he was getting into in advance.

00:01:55.300 - 00:02:08.040

Yeah, he did. He did. He knew. But I don't think it just well, you know, Charles Lloyd, all horn players play their dudes by playing in a band, you know, playing a BB King's band and stuff. But everyone that I talked to outside of Charles

00:02:08.040 - 00:02:20.540

said they hated it and suffered. Charles told me he suffered playing with cannonballs, man, cannibal, yeah, that he really suffered. He told him, I can see that, you know, but with BB King when he's very much younger. And

00:02:20.540 - 00:02:31.940

you know, he told me that, that he dug it. Other corner players, I know that have played with BB, you know, with blues bands, just said, well, they love listening to BB, singing everything, but they just couldn't stand playing it all night, just sitting

00:02:31.940 - 00:02:46.000

there playing blues all night. Coltrane said that he learned a lot from playing in bostics band. Was really, yeah, I know he played for a while. Johnny Hodges had a kind of semi blues band. He was in that too, and maybe Henze was one of

00:02:46.180 - 00:02:58.840

those. Sure wasn't Johnny Hodges clean head, probably man. But I don't think Johnny Hodges ever had a blues band that I was we had a kind of an octave on that. It was kind of swing. Blues wasn't hard. When was this? This was

00:02:58.900 - 00:03:14.400

for brief, it wasn't the 50s, would Ellington? Ellington either? So new, my friend, shall I get in my free Yeah, okay, like on the wall there, there's a psychedelic poster of Malcolm X,

00:03:14.400 - 00:03:27.140

and the other night, you're telling me that you type of books that you had to give away were high beaches of Malcolm X and the autobiography, lot of copies. So tell me why. Why do you think it's a good book to give away? Why you like it so

00:03:27.200 - 00:03:39.860

much well? For you know, ever since I was around 15 or 16 years old, 17, maybe 17 years old, I realized that everybody, maybe was younger, was not rich and Jewish, you know. And then after

00:03:39.860 - 00:03:55.420

a while, my conscience caught up with me, and I got very into civil rights, really into civil rights, not actively. I didn't march or anything, but I really, you know, knew what was happening and believed in it. And then, then I kept wondering,

00:03:55.420 - 00:04:07.320

you know, why is nothing happening? Nothing has ever been done. All the white people don't like the color people. They hate them. They hate them. You're conditioned to hate them. You're trained in America to hate Negroes. I was by non prejudice,

00:04:07.560 - 00:04:20.220

by non prejudiced parents. In their minds, they were not prejudiced people. They simply knew no other Negroes but garage mechanics and second class citizens. And that's where they're at, and that's how I was trained. Trained, conditioned,

00:04:20.220 - 00:04:36.020

like a Pavlovian conditioning to just look at a Negro and immediately condition him with a maid, you know, or an entertainer or an athlete, entire cliche and I, and I one day, just one day, I saw a book Malcolm X's speeches. He wrote

00:04:36.020 - 00:04:54.940

an English simpler than fun with Dick and Jane. And he told us I met up mitigated truth about an insoluble problem and and right before he died, he's the only fucking cat in the world that could have probably saved America from the biggest

00:04:54.940 - 00:05:09.480

revolution is our country will be split assault over the next three years, because. The white establishment refuses to believe there was a revolution. Can you believe the bullshit, but President Johnson and all those asses going through that crazy

00:05:09.660 - 00:05:26.420

madness, why aren't they saying there's a revolution, a full scale Revolution like the French Revolution, like Castro, like Batista, with leaders Kenyatta, smart, brilliant, militant men who were just nothing you can do. You must do that. And

00:05:26.420 - 00:05:46.540

finally he got, he was just, you know, he finally, may have had one solution, you know, just just to avoid that bloodshed. But he's dead now, I saw, I give it to everybody, everybody that sees that slightest pretensions, you know, of knowing, thinking

00:05:46.540 - 00:05:54.820

they know what's happening. You know, I want them to read the truth. What kind of reactions have you had from giving the book to people who have you given it to? And what kind of, what kind of

00:05:54.820 - 00:06:08.100

feedback have you I've given it to Negroes were very, very complacent and very civil rights, he and very Thurgood, Thurgood Marshall, and very integration, yeah, and really into that, you know. And I keep telling him that the more you

00:06:08.100 - 00:06:21.980

integrate, the more Weldon laugh at you behind your back and just call you a stupid fucking nigger and hate your guts. And it's the truth. I've seen it 1000 times, and I don't know. I have my own solutions to solve a problem. I think the government should pass

00:06:21.980 - 00:06:34.880

a massive miscegenation law, making miscegenation a law. You must do it. You have to do it mutually cohabitation with the races. They should build a huge barracks, and a colored man and white people will go in there and fucking have babies. And

00:06:34.880 - 00:06:48.280

that's the first way that, the easiest way, most logical way to solve the problem, you know. And, and the other way is, well, it's impossible. The government would have to come up with such a huge amount of funds, and they would have to, and the Negroes

00:06:48.280 - 00:07:01.440

would have to choose leaders. And the leaders of the common people now are not. They're not. They have nothing to do with the Negroes. The leaders we appoint, to me like exactly nothing to do with the Negroes. Nothing to do with them. I think if they ever

00:07:01.440 - 00:07:13.380

saw a win or a ghost or in the street man, they get so turned they're so turned off by the Negroes of this country that there's no they're not even speaking the same language. So I don't know it's a very depressing thought. No one's

00:07:13.380 - 00:07:24.500

speaking the truth about it, and he's the only one. What? What happens when you go to the book? The whites, do they usually? Yeah, what do you think?

00:07:25.160 - 00:07:36.080

Well, it really opened my mind that I had no idea about writing, just no idea, especially in language,

00:07:37.760 - 00:07:53.860

anybody can understand, what really laid it down. Catholic Jack, we were to this is cliff right after the right after the thing in LA where the police shot up temple 1963 so he came out there to do

00:07:54.040 - 00:08:17.580

a benefit. Man. He was a civil rights leader. That was exactly nothing to do with that. Integration was separation, equalization, lot of red I don't know. What is he I

00:08:17.580 - 00:08:28.820

don't know. I still only thing I don't know is the one thing that I'm sure of, that I don't know, for the revolutionaries have any idea of what they're going to do when they revolt after they revolt, because they don't know. They just aren't form enough. Or

00:08:28.820 - 00:08:43.180

maybe, you know, I don't know, do they want a state? Do they want land? I know they want a lot of money and which they need. You know, where they need, what they need is a area, a body of land, you know, or huge refurbishment of the black

00:08:43.180 - 00:09:03.840

community, just huge, enormous, you know, plans like of some sort. Because, I mean, what's the Stokely Carmichael and just going to Cuba see they wanted to try continental Tara without

00:09:03.900 - 00:09:18.420

permission. Well, everybody knows they're rallying. They are rallying all non white revolutionaries so they can rally Cubans, Chinese Avenue, all non white people. And that's the most intelligent

00:09:18.420 - 00:09:32.000

thing. You know. Perhaps Africa will be the answer, though, I personally, really don't think so. The average street Negro has a contempt for the African that has been nurtured on Tara and movies at the big, Regal show stage shows. You know, I've

00:09:32.000 - 00:09:44.920

attended hundreds of them and seen him just crack up behind the idea of Africans. You know, it's just monkeys, just complete monkeys. And that's going to be very hard to sell the average American Negro on Africa.

00:09:45.880 - 00:09:57.640

Well, maybe one of the reasons, maybe one of the reasons nobody has real firm plans, because what the reaction of the whites is going to be, it hasn't really been laid down fully. I mean, we know about the establishment, but there's things like the

00:09:57.640 - 00:10:07.980

hippies now it's not sure which way they're going to go. Well. Hippies are as much fault as the establishment. Absolutely, the hippies have no use for the negro man. They use for colored hippies. They have no use for

00:10:07.980 - 00:10:18.660

the Negro. She kind of gotten those kinds of vibrations. What I think has happened there, it used to be that when the beats were around Beatrice, what the word is, pro black, I guess you know, it was

00:10:18.660 - 00:10:29.480

really hit them due to ball and a Negro and or to marry a negro, or any kind of thing. On hand, right? Then that when the Negro is very romantic, very stupid romantic thing about romantic. But on the

00:10:29.480 - 00:10:40.120

other hand, the Beatrice did do a certain number thing. I mean, the Beatrice students did organize tickets and so forth, so on, sometimes for integrationist and but even then, a lot of times they saw the integration wouldn't work as

00:10:40.120 - 00:10:52.660

an immediate chemical. Then what happened was, when the black thing went to the nationals direction, the new beats, the hippies, they sort of, they turned off the blacks, because blacks don't love us as if the Black should love you. And so

00:10:52.660 - 00:11:06.120

they became, that's what I think a lot of this Indian stuff is all about, you know, putting on the feather and the headdress and the thing around, the Indians turned off, yeah, but the sea, they don't come tremendous thing. They don't.

00:11:14.400 - 00:11:24.560

The hippies, but the hippies have never seen enough real live Indians to know what they don't really get. The Indian is ideal, almost, because they're not number. Not enough around for them to get in any

00:11:24.560 - 00:11:36.140

kind of trouble. Really, really, really, no, the hippies are absolutely as guilty as anyone else. They just refuse to even they really do not recognize that the average American Negro, they do

00:11:36.140 - 00:11:48.220

not recognize the man on the street, you know, because they have and they have a lot in common, man, the average Negro that I've run into all my life in Chicago stays wasted bucks a lot, you know, and it's pretty mellow, you know? I don't know

00:11:48.220 - 00:12:00.520

why they don't get together. It's very simple, because those kidneys are nothing but middle class citizens who have shed their guard for a week, for two weeks, and can go right back home. Yeah, join, join the establishment anytime.

00:12:00.520 - 00:12:07.980

They always took their hair and change their beard to go get a gig, and that's it. That's it. It's all over. And then that's where they're at, man. So

00:12:08.460 - 00:12:17.940

even if they're not, they haven't done anything. You know, like blacks don't trust them because they these people beards, but they're still white. And you know, like, well, I trust the

00:12:17.940 - 00:12:31.280

white Absolutely, absolutely. I've always said when the riot comes, I don't think that that really happens here in San Francisco. And we would think that the Negroes wouldn't fuck with the hippies too much. It would go out of their way, do? I

00:12:31.280 - 00:12:39.560

don't think, no, you know. But then I've changed my mind, and I really think, what the hell they're all the same? Man, I made a big speech of no more last night about this. Oh, you did. Wow.

00:12:40.880 - 00:12:51.100

What did you say? Same with just did you say? There's no brothers here? I don't see any of them. Never, yeah. I don't know if it's Bill grammar, the patrons of the Fillmore, why don't you bring him in the street? I know most of them

00:12:51.100 - 00:13:06.180

don't have $3 you know, I know a lot of math. $3 and they're sent away from the Dodie. They're not allowed in film or soon as grams Henze, oh, hundreds of times an average teenage negro man with his do rag on his head as old lady his arm, mellow on wine

00:13:06.360 - 00:13:18.480

coming in there, I've seen him letting kids fly on acid, stone on Reaper, but you see average color Kees me on wine, whatever. What does he use for an excuse? Rowdy making his bread? What kind of

00:13:20.700 - 00:13:30.380

what happened? So what happened after you laid that down? Nothing, because they're all set. What should I do? Put up a sign calling people out? Yeah, well, might be a start.

00:13:30.920 - 00:13:43.000

I don't know, because they're not allowed, and the kids don't know what the kid the kids don't want in there. The kids wouldn't want to they feel 50 times more uncomfortable. They feel they wouldn't even come, right? They wouldn't even wouldn't

00:13:43.000 - 00:13:53.440

even come. I wonder what happened with Chuck Berry play. Chuck Berry played. Chuck Berry has no Negro audience and has no head. Has had no colored audience since for 10 years. Is that true? He

00:13:53.740 - 00:14:09.120

has never sold the negroes, never, never. Wow. He was entirely a White Rock and Roll artist who, who's, who's songs were all directed to the white market. You know, writing about white things, school days and stuff like that, cards and hot

00:14:09.120 - 00:14:20.280

rods, I guess, which colored kids were into. But at that time, very much small town, American things, hot rods and cars and stuff like that. That's what it is into. That's kind of bizarre, isn't it? But on the Four Tops and Otis Redding

00:14:20.280 - 00:14:35.060

played there, man, there was no color. People were louder. Didn't come. They didn't come to the fill Mort, yeah, they didn't even, that's a while, because, what, yeah, 1960 I went to Charles Dance and Fillmore and like,

00:14:35.060 - 00:14:53.380

there were maybe five fake couples there, and 2000 blinds. That was when, for Fillmore was run by Bill or anything that was, yeah, big auditorium. Well, it's still a black neighborhood, but they're on 70% black, yeah,

00:14:54.580 - 00:15:05.580

because we drove a lot, right? Well, it's really going to be a bad thing. It was really good. Blow up, and it's going to blow up very shortly, with 70 cent, 70% black community, and the rest of them

00:15:05.580 - 00:15:17.580

are hippies, and the hippies are the only people that I see. The majority of the people I see in the streets are the hippies. And when the police are rousing only Negroes to every every 10 hippies that are allowed to run around the streets freaking out,

00:15:17.940 - 00:15:30.020

one Negro is routed, and it's just tolerable situation. Ralph Gleason says that the hippies get treated the same way as the blacks. That's a complete lie, complete bullshit, because he immediately calls up and

00:15:30.020 - 00:15:42.940

says, Listen, I'm not a hippie, man. I'm a little rich Jewish kid from New Rochelle, and that's it, right? And the status is completely done, man, completely that's it. It's no longer a hippie. Man, soon as they get in front of the mess

00:15:42.940 - 00:15:56.560

and he's crying because you got to cut his hair. Why's that a cut his hair, pass a bum check he's on that gonna make the check up before he

00:15:56.620 - 00:16:07.680

check goods. Better cut your hair. You know, it's a he'll get out of the Dodie the black and that's good. That's good because that's where I'm at. By God, if I got busted, I call my old Jewish old man Henze the black guy.

00:16:08.280 - 00:16:20.280

Don't can't know it's an insoluble problem in the country, and there's nothing that can be done about it, and that fucking cracker President is not going

00:16:20.580 - 00:16:43.060

to do anything about it either. Well, what he's doing about is making worse than the Vietnam thing, it seems to me, Cliff asked about Dodie, sure.

00:16:43.180 - 00:16:55.480

Of course, love them fantastically. I wondered. I'm just wondering. You know, I don't think that's even bad. Afraid because white people would tell those colored people how to spend no, of course, I didn't

00:16:55.900 - 00:17:07.140

mean it was a solution. The only solution is like, as you say, social revolution, yeah, it's not just right? Guns, wars, you know, it's, that's what's happening now, because that's the only way anybody ever gets

00:17:07.140 - 00:17:17.400

an independent it's a drag. And my attitude is about it is a drag. It's a drag for me, man, because I don't want any cat stopping my head. Yeah, I'm not going to turn the other tree. I go out and buy a gun. I'm going to shoot the cat right in the

00:17:17.400 - 00:17:29.240

fucking face if he messes with me. Five, five hippies, this is a truth got castrated down to film work. No, that sounds like Kenya has worked me, and that really does. Really sounds like mom out tactics, man.

00:17:29.840 - 00:17:38.060

Where'd you find that? That sounds so bizarre. It's hard to believe. Everybody says it's hard to believe. A bunch of good, reputable people have told me about

00:17:39.320 - 00:18:00.100

it on the air. Well, every ghetto was organized, that's right, they have soul certificate. Oh. Malcolm Henze chopped off.

00:18:02.260 - 00:18:18.180

No, use the first use Christ. And now his disciples are Tara carrying on for it, except his disciples, you know, Malcolm got chopped at the perfect point, at the wrongest time for him to get chopped, because he was just, just just, I think, had an idea

00:18:18.180 - 00:18:32.120

of what to do into his new bag, you know, just got into it, and that's when they got a horrible thing. But, you know, really, I'm concerned about these things, but I'm not concerned about them because there's no way to be, no reason to be

00:18:32.120 - 00:18:45.700

concerned about there's no, you know, if the earth is going to collide with the sun. Just can't fret about it. Kees out of your hands. It's out of America's Hans. It's a insoluble problem and just insolvent. Yeah, the white people

00:18:48.580 - 00:18:58.000

would have to get themselves together in some kind of way. And they don't give in much indication of their mind. Their minds are with their cars and their houses and their swimming pools and all that jazz. They can't be bothered thinking

00:18:58.000 - 00:19:06.660

about, like, what's going to happen to the country or their kids, because they know their kids. They don't want their kids to take answer. Well, I don't think it can be bothered so much. I just they

00:19:06.660 - 00:19:21.560

can't believe it. They cannot. Yeah, right. Listen, they were killing Jews in Germany. And Jews that live there said it was happening. They're not doing it. You know, his uncle got died yesterday got wasted. But it's not happening. It's just what's

00:19:21.560 - 00:19:38.060

happening here. Dig the mothers. It can't happen, the process of happening. But Americans, you see, if you teach another, you get you see what the average American mind is like, and they're just not geared in terms of thinking of

00:19:38.060 - 00:19:49.600

any long range plans. Their thing is like, I'll get the degree and Go on, get a job, go to the suburbs, and my father was a steel worker, but I'll be, I'll be in a Kenneth because that's because the image of America that

00:19:49.600 - 00:20:03.180

they've been taught from birth is that of a flawless, flawless, super thing, man. It could not possibly go so if you tell them that your country is falling apart now it's just we. Literally falling apart, and seems that a greater more a

00:20:03.180 - 00:20:16.380

majority of the population is disgruntled enough to actually do something about like it's like a civil war. And then the other youngest, best minds of the country are so disenchanted with the country's policy that they don't know where to turn

00:20:16.380 - 00:20:29.900

it, that they just cannot be radical enough that they would be burning themselves like Buddhist priests, you know it's gonna come to that. And they just cannot believe that. It's not even able to believe that, you know, because complacency is

00:20:29.900 - 00:20:39.680

said in your soul, soul on that propaganda. It took me 23 years to learn that everything I've ever been taught was bullshit. Every last, every everything Washington to The Delaware,

00:20:40.220 - 00:20:53.680

all lies all the most unhistorical, warped, crazy interpretation. And man, 23 years, and all people that are my father's age, who was never, they never made it, baby. So 23 years, you know, you got there

00:20:53.680 - 00:21:04.380

in a hurry. Got there by Express plane. Just kidding. So much stuff. It's wax. It's candle wax. He was sleeping on the candles or

00:21:04.380 - 00:21:17.880

something. Did the rest of the Butterfield band feel pretty much the same way? Did you talk about that in the band at all? No, no, not at all. Jerome, one of the bass players, had some

00:21:17.880 - 00:21:34.460

slight, slight noise in field flight feelings. Well, I don't know what the band is into now, but when I was there, no not really Butterfield was he is the only white person I've ever met was truly, truly, truly, truly hip to an entire spade

00:21:34.460 - 00:21:52.600

environment, to the degree that there just is no question. He's the only really white person ever met that just absolutely, you know, has no, no tint, tint in down in his stomach, you know, of Whitey thing about him, nothing at all. He's so strongly

00:21:52.720 - 00:22:06.060

into just, just complete acceptance of people, you know, and but Paul is the Butterfield band didn't feel like that. And at that time, I knew it was a bad scene, but I never really felt that strong about it, because

00:22:07.560 - 00:22:21.740

I wasn't turned out to Malcolm. X, well, I preach about it, I teach lessons about it. I go crazy about it. They don't believe it. Buddy, Buddy, I told you about buddy. He doesn't believe in me, you know, in a

00:22:21.740 - 00:22:33.020

million years, but he has never experienced prejudice, racial prejudice, in his entire life. He just never has, you know, and he'd love to do it. He's heard about it. He's read about it. He knows it's happening. He knows those people in Little Rock

00:22:33.020 - 00:22:46.360

rioting because of prejudice, but it's never happened to him. No one's ever called him a nigger. He would love it to happen, to see what it was, what it would be like, you know, apparently, you can grow up in this country entirely in

00:22:46.360 - 00:22:59.380

contaminated, just a straight American. And he did, you know, he's from Omaha, a suburb of Omaha, as a high school, the only Santa told always paid Student Council, the big football athlete. They loved him, you know. And he's very

00:22:59.380 - 00:23:22.640

healthy as a relationship. But you know, Frank in the new black music, you know that new music? I don't know. I don't see the I see the parallel so much, but I see absolutely nothing, nothing in the new black music that was in old black music, you know.

00:23:22.640 - 00:23:41.080

How about the feelings? No, not invoke none of the feelings of blues, of folks, oh, that you mean real. Oh, no. I mean, oh, I mean, like Charlie Parker, just or less, or even newer culture, or net, or net, you know? I mean, these cats are just, it's

00:23:41.080 - 00:23:54.460

just too anguish for me to listen to. It's just, it's just ugly, man, it's ugly, ugly, ugly, fucking music. And there's great beauty in the ugliness, great beauty in the ugliness. But there's no beauty in the beauty. There's no beauty,

00:23:54.460 - 00:24:08.220

beauty, there's ugly beauty, there's no beauty, beauty. They're only running one spectrum, one gamut, of the thing, you know? I mean, they're just not going in the other direction. They're much too a musical, you know. I mean,

00:24:08.400 - 00:24:19.260

they're just too hate. There's just too much fucking hate net music. Now, you know, did you feel that way about Coltrane? I'm talking about Eiler and sunrise, those those cats were

00:24:19.260 - 00:24:31.340

not like Coltrane. I learned is a very Pacific, placid individual who is very mystical and might talk to them at some length, and does not express any kind of hatred at all.

00:24:31.520 - 00:24:47.380

No, well, I don't know people feel people I don't include. I would never equip, just equivocate that music with, with the racial scene. I would never would, apparently that was, there was that was the only logical direction the jazz had

00:24:47.380 - 00:25:02.520

to go anyway. It just had to go there, you know, chords, you know. And it had to get out of time, and it had to get into sound, which is vastly important, sound, understanding that all sound is using. Henze, I think cage is as big an

00:25:02.520 - 00:25:21.560

influence on his mouth a man, you know cages? Yeah, no, in the sense of cage represents a certain principle. But I don't know. Man, I don't know. I have attended a conference by Russell Mitchell Morton, Chicago's, yeah, I know,

00:25:22.340 - 00:25:36.500

yeah. And, and this was so fraught with hate, man, you know, the whole environment, you know, and, and I just couldn't equalize that music with hate, man. I could equalize that music with a logical extension of the music, where it's been going

00:25:36.500 - 00:25:46.960

lately. But just to say, well, this is hate music to you know, this is, this is the black music. There has to be another side of it. Well, black music doesn't necessarily have to be hate music, anymore

00:25:46.960 - 00:25:57.340

than really. Malcolm took a black position, but Malcolm didn't take the position of hate. Not exactly my point. That's what I tried to get across. So often, most people say, well, Black Nationalism means, hey, Whitey, but doesn't

00:25:57.340 - 00:26:08.040

mean Hans Werner Henze together, right? Right. Take Care of Business in your community, man, get your people straight. Get your people straight, doesn't it? Well, I would say I think that it really

00:26:08.040 - 00:26:23.120

means hate the way which, depending it means, I think that's what they offer you. Well, his last speech, right at the end, it doesn't make any difference in difference. People married

00:26:23.120 - 00:26:34.820

for love, and that's not a political stuff. That's an individual rather than a social question. It means, hey, Whitey of Whitey, is going to be the slave master, but if White, he doesn't want to be the slave master. It means to Yeah, that's

00:26:34.820 - 00:26:47.500

for example, Why do you smile? Well, that's why he's not, yeah, yeah. Well, if White, he's going to be a slave master, but you would hate him no matter what he was, what color he was, if he were the slave master, really is a slave master. Not hate Whitey,

00:26:47.740 - 00:26:54.880

right? Absolutely. You take the black slave. Man, unfortunately, the majority of white he's a slave. Man, yeah, right. And there's some blacks who are slave

00:26:54.880 - 00:27:10.200

masters, and they're going to be really Malcolm speaks much more vindictively about Uncle Tom. Tom really freaked him out. He hated that man. He just hated them more than anything else. Yeah, I like that. It really

00:27:10.200 - 00:27:21.740

annoys me too. Why don't talk about because you can it seems like you're conversing with the entire musical range of the ghetto. Why don't you talk about your musical experiences and how you

00:27:21.740 - 00:27:35.600

got into music. And you know, my first things that inspired me to play. See, I have no jazz roots at all. My roots are completely American popular music. Whatever was on the air inspired me. Whatever I could

00:27:35.600 - 00:27:47.740

get on the radio in Chicago, whatever sounds the first songs I ever heard in my life, I guess, were South Pacific and stuff like that, where I was old enough of a 13 or 12, I realized turning on the radio and you weren't hearing South Pacific.

00:27:47.740 - 00:28:00.180

You were rock and roll, hillbilly spade music. And Chicago is such a melting pot. You know, you just turned from knob to novel, and everything that came in there went right in my ears, and all that freaked my mind out, because at that time,

00:28:00.240 - 00:28:14.220

it was all raw. Kyle Perkins, Gene Vincent, jerelee Lewis, were just the rawest explorers of the Hard Rock hillbilly thing, you know, those cats were just brutal. You know, Little Richard and screaming Jay Hawkins and all that just just

00:28:14.220 - 00:28:27.440

just shocked me into into, you know, really a bite. It was a bite, very vital music that really got me. And as time went on, I realized, I started exploring the musical possibilities of Chicago, which was at that time, the blues

00:28:27.440 - 00:28:39.440

Capitola, the world you know, had more working big name blues artists than any other place, working in clubs every night of the week, where it costs a quarter to go in. They don't have to do nothing to spend that quarter. And like five years

00:28:39.440 - 00:28:51.820

ago, one night, you could hear Otis rush Buddy Guy, Freddie King, Holling Wolf, muddy waters. Jimmy wells. Jimmy Reed, one night within about a 10 mile radius. How do you possibly digest it

00:28:51.820 - 00:29:03.420

all? Or did you hear it all in one night? Well, I digest it all because after what became my music was the only music I was interested in playing with. I played only with those, with those colored people, and after eventually a

00:29:03.420 - 00:29:17.400

point, I cut them all. I even burned the cats I learned from. I burned them right off the stage. And I'm not the heavy one Butterfield. Paul completely burned like Little Walter, you know. And those cats were really good, really good. Just Paul

00:29:17.400 - 00:29:30.140

would just take them and just they would I've seen Little Walter Hans harmonica to Paul, just seeing his face, and say, Man, you the best. Sit down. And that's the fucking truth, man, because he is the best. And that's how good you've got to be

00:29:30.140 - 00:29:40.700

to play blues. If you're a whitey, that's how good you got to be. You've got to be better than the cash you learn from you've got to be able to burn them. They've got to be able to shake their head and wonder and say, look at that boy play.

00:29:41.000 - 00:29:47.440

That's what they got to do. If you're not doing that, you're just not making it. You must have practiced endlessly to get that good. I never, I

00:29:47.440 - 00:30:00.600

never practiced. No, I wasn't practice. I played. I when you have to cut you're hired on a gig. You cut the gig. You don't cut the gig, you're fired. The prime job of a musician is to cut the gig. I, in my opinion, other Kees. Ask Me, not tell

00:30:00.600 - 00:30:11.340

you, or you ask Roland Kirk, that's not what he says at all. Rodeo Kirk says, if you have a sound in your head, you should play it. I don't care if you're playing with the symphony. I don't care what you're doing. By God, you get that

00:30:11.340 - 00:30:23.480

sound up. Well, rodeo things at different times. He said just the opposite when he was late, you know, fit in, right? And he does fit in. He can play in any bag. You know, he's a little so, so talented. That's

00:30:23.480 - 00:30:34.880

what he told me in one of his little, really crazy guy, you know. But at that time, when I was going to Chicago, by God, you had to cut the gig. You know, I was working with the men. If a young, 15 year old boy wanted to get up on the stage

00:30:34.880 - 00:30:43.540

with great kid, you know, man, you better be good. You better play with those cats. Yeah. How long have you been playing before you play professionally?

00:30:45.160 - 00:30:53.800

Two years. So you did practice? I mean, no, well, how did you I practice? Short goof I just, you know, listen to records and goof around. But soon I was,

00:30:53.800 - 00:31:05.760

when I was 13, I think I saw money first. Well, soon as I was old enough to get know that there was a certain area of the city where I would, any place I would, they were playing music that I didn't really understand. As a matter of fact, at that

00:31:05.760 - 00:31:18.660

time, I thought I was better than those people because I played faster than blues people lose musicians. I played sort of the same notes, but it never sounded the same. I wasn't phrasing it right, man, I didn't have the soul. Was No, no swing

00:31:18.660 - 00:31:33.740

at all. Just just, I just had, I had bad Fast, fast venture like chops, you know, very inhibit. I was down there. I thought I was the best. I was down there. In my mind I'd walk in, I thought, Wow, here we go. Burn them off the stage. It took me a long

00:31:33.740 - 00:31:48.460

time to realize I was not where it was at. They must have been very patient with you. They got man colored people have been very good to me. Man, very, very good to me. I talked to Julius, Julius Lester about this. I had a big idea with him. You see,

00:31:48.460 - 00:32:02.520

very good to me. Guys like Sunnyland, slim and washboard Sam and Janice Gillum and Kokomo, old Kees, you know, money. Man, money's been like a father to many times in Spanish, those guys have just been so good because they know they're

00:32:02.520 - 00:32:16.560

dying, and they know that the young Negroes aren't interested. Don't give two shits about the blues. That Motown has destroyed it Tara, terrible Atlantic, you know, even Atlantic Records, you know, the stack sound, yes, has ruined the blues because it's so

00:32:16.560 - 00:32:29.660

churchy, you know. And the church is opposed, directly opposite of the blues, you know, and, but, but, but, the but they knew money knows, you know. He knows that he doesn't really believe there's ever been any white cats that can sing like

00:32:29.660 - 00:32:40.100

him. Videos are gonna be white cats that can play like him. And even now, with Barfield, a few other cats, he's beginning to believe either white people are gonna carry on that. Harrison, what do you think about white cat singing like money? You

00:32:40.100 - 00:32:51.220

think it's possible? Or Sure, I think it's possible. Man, I think it's very possible. Your voice is nothing but a muscle. It's an instrument. Singing blues has nothing to do with accent and nothing to do

00:32:51.220 - 00:33:08.640

with talking like Jim from Uncle Barry thing. It has to do with notes. If you understand that, singing blues is has to do with melisma, has to do with blue. He's as good as Charles. It's as good as far as no spinning and that clear classical Cambridge

00:33:08.640 - 00:33:22.040

kids and kids that have heard nothing but records, you know, blues records, where they have to decipher the dialect and understand what they're saying, and then after they decipher the dialect and learn the words that studiously imitated are not

00:33:22.040 - 00:33:33.020

where it's at words at is to understand the environment of blues and Weldon. So when you sing the lyrics, you know what they're talking about. How can you sing that way without having those

00:33:33.020 - 00:33:43.000

experiences? Well, the experiences are, I've never really heard blues that has an experience common only to Negroes ever really. I've never heard blues is not about race. It's not about lynchings. It's

00:33:43.000 - 00:33:54.580

not about civil rights, no, but it's about it. Charles is the most white people don't have it. Why? I don't think so. It's only about pussy, wine and Reaper Jack and that's all it's about. Almost every blues I've ever heard in my life is about pussy.

00:33:54.880 - 00:34:10.380

Or I worked five long years for one woman, she put me out. Man, white bitches do the same thing, man, that's common to everybody, you know, the experience, the things the blues are written about, man is usually about sex, you know. And that happens to

00:34:10.380 - 00:34:22.640

everybody. And your chick, did you this and this and and there are definitely things are entirely new to words and whole phrases. And if you're not hip to you're just gonna miss the entire song. But the basic subject matter of the blues, I

00:34:22.640 - 00:34:36.620

really don't feel, is extremely is exactly just negro. I mean, anybody can empathize with what those songs are about, man, they're about the most kind. And give you 100 songs, a sweet little angel. I love the way she spreads her wings. Okay, that

00:34:38.960 - 00:34:49.000

was a big hit record. I had a huge weekend. Their first version of it was sweet Black Angel by Robert Nighthawk, I love the way. And then Beatrice court, I got a sweet little angel. I love the way she spread her wings. When she spreads her

00:34:49.000 - 00:34:59.920

wings around me, I get joy and everything. But if you don't think I can empathize with that bitch spreading your wings and putting joy around me, man, white people come to man. When they fuck, they come to, you know, and it feels just as good.

00:35:00.000 - 00:35:10.320

That, what about what kind of vibrations you get from black audiences singing the best, the best vibrations, if you're saying it right, if you know, see, if you're singing the blues, if you're seeing blues

00:35:10.320 - 00:35:23.720

notes, if you're singing melismatically, if you're singing virtuoso, if you like, the best blues singers are the ones that use their voices most instrumentally. You know, most melismatically, who take every word and articulate it with so

00:35:23.720 - 00:35:37.760

many so syllabically. You know? James Brown does not scream, my friend, those screams are our pitch every single Oh, yeah, Ray Charles, even more so, even more so. Well, Ray is just an Aretha too, you know? And that's what blue singing is. It's singing

00:35:37.760 - 00:35:49.240

those notes, man, it's not it's nothing else. If you can sing those notes, and if you can sing those lyrics with conviction, because you know what that's about. Man, you are singing the blues. You are singing the blues, and there's just nothing

00:35:49.240 - 00:35:57.760

to do. Man, nothing to do with anything else. Can you sing in your own voice? Or do you have to try and sound like a negro? Of course not. Why do you have to sound like a negro? No, I

00:35:57.760 - 00:36:10.140

don't. You don't have to try and change no or your pronunciation Well yes, or the pitch in the timber bottle stops, rough things, falsettos, heavy

00:36:10.140 - 00:36:28.280

Brahms, absolutely. What I meant was pronunciation of words, no, of course, not only in things like more and floor, you know, or rather, go in floor, where can't we say flow low? Yeah, right. Well, I wouldn't say that I say floor, because I would

00:36:28.280 - 00:36:40.600

just take the word at that point. If I was gonna sing that word, I would bend it. I would just take that word, embed it so much that whether rhyme made so made no difference, you know. So this the notes that's hundreds of kids, white kids never hear

00:36:40.600 - 00:36:54.760

the notes that are singing. It's the notes, man, it's those beautiful, beautiful scales, the same scales that they play on the guitar, once you get to those notes. Well, you know, and even there are white artists that are like the look like the

00:36:54.760 - 00:37:08.640

little cat from the righteous brothers, who the superb blue singer, just fabulous, who, you know, really can sing notes beautiful, but he gets over, over does it, you know, over does it. He gets sensational at it. But look, but that, you see,

00:37:08.700 - 00:37:21.800

sensationalism isn't white. Sensationalism is the sensationalism of like a gospel singer who is just going carried away, man. He's just, he's freaking his audience out. He's just like, or like a bull fighter, a young noviana doing

00:37:21.980 - 00:37:38.660

just outrageous passes. Outrageous passes is his first time out, you know, just just showing all the chops you can muster. It's not tasty by any means, but it's a young ballsy thing, yeah, worst mistakes you can make, like not knowing how

00:37:38.660 - 00:37:47.860

to do it at all, you know, but you see to do blues, to play blues, well, you must the most important thing. You must know it culturally. You must understand that when BB King starts a song

00:37:47.860 - 00:38:00.820

Dodie, Dodie and the whole audience goes, well, you must know why they're screaming. They're not screaming. They're screaming for a specific reason. We're screaming because BB just hold it like it is. He just, he just said, We're gonna get you

00:38:00.820 - 00:38:13.080

set up. Those notes that we're getting down now, we're going down the alley right now. The real blues is happening. Everybody knows. Everybody knows, you know, it's a mutually shared thing. He's working to the audience. He's expecting

00:38:13.080 - 00:38:25.460

responses. You must respond in that way. I mean, I've seen BB play the White House as it's insane. They applaud. You know, he doesn't want applause. He wants screams and yells. You know,

00:38:28.880 - 00:38:41.200

Charles manhole LA, when you ought to say like it's been frozen rigid. And the jazz workshop, where you get a big black audience, people clap again, a train, baby. That thing when I do from Santa, Los Angeles, I put me very uptight.

00:38:42.700 - 00:38:56.680

I was raised on playing music with the entire thing only when you knew whether you were making it. Was oral response, right? Scream at me and say, Tell him like it is brother you well, then I know I'm making it. But when they sit there and don't

00:38:56.680 - 00:39:03.600

say nothing, you're not like hippies, I can't scratch that's the first thing I noticed about the hippies, as they said, they were totally passive. I don't want it to be freaked

00:39:03.600 - 00:39:16.200

out. I want to get him in their stomachs. Man, I want to get him in their soul. That's what Lou that's what that music's for, man, and every night, when we do drama volunteers, I make a speech about this. I say this music is not supposed to freak

00:39:16.200 - 00:39:26.480

you out. It's not supposed to blow your mind. All it is supposed to do is ease your soul. Man, just close your eyes and let those notes in those words and think about those words, and just let them get you right in

00:39:26.480 - 00:39:40.100

the belly. You know what Hans Werner say that make any make any impression. Five people go yay. Five people go yay. They're incapable. Man, I noticed that the hippies are very tolerant. They'll listen to almost anything. Gary. They'll freak

00:39:40.100 - 00:39:51.880

out by anything. It's all the spectacle. I don't know. I don't know. Listen to anything. There's certain. It's, it's really simple, Frank, it's, if the seniorities are there, if it's excitement, enthusiasm.

00:39:51.940 - 00:40:04.500

Well, even Gary Burton, I listen to Gary Burton. Gary's very listenable. They're looking at him, Friend, my friend, yeah, not listening at him so much as looking at. Oh, he's a young, handsome cat up there with a Beatrice haircut. And, you know,

00:40:04.500 - 00:40:18.900

blah, blah, we and they're playing, you know, very nice, easily understandable music with this quartet, Gary's lovely, lovely, lovely, his musical thing has gone about this far down compared to what he was with Stan Getz, as far as his

00:40:18.900 - 00:40:32.000

jazz complexity and being in the mainstream of jazz, yeah, no, I shouldn't say musical. His mainstream attributes have gone down a whole lot. He's still really heavily into fantastic music, but he's sitting there in the mainstream like he was. He's

00:40:32.000 - 00:40:40.640

catering to that audience, fucking catering him to think he was. I didn't get that impression. I thought some of the things he played were pretty complex. Oh, his image. I'm not musically, his image, his whole

00:40:40.640 - 00:40:52.360

thing. Gary's out to make it with the hippies, because he drew on here. Absolutely, I think it seems to me that Charles White is even worse, absolutely, Charles absent. Charles man struts around up there, but it's

00:40:52.360 - 00:41:05.580

so beautiful, you know, to look at him, he's such a Hans of beautiful, exquisite person, right? But I love that. I think that's wonderful and fabulous. It's a great thing, you know. But I don't know, man, I think I wonder if Charles gets

00:41:05.580 - 00:41:13.620

satisfaction from playing. For me, I don't see how you could get satisfaction from playing when he's playing, because he has the talent to play so much more than what are you doing? That's only

00:41:13.620 - 00:41:21.860

that's been what's annoyed me about him recently, yeah, yeah. But he'd rather please certain certain people, maybe. So I think you get maybe.

00:41:21.860 - 00:41:32.900

So I think he gets his nuts off Frank, I watch him real closely, and I watch, not here, but I watch the looks of Kees and Jack and Charles thrower. They're having fun. They really are having fun. Okay, they're really having a lot of fun. I've seen

00:41:32.900 - 00:41:43.720

monk and Mingus a lot of times, and they're never having Well, monk is never smile. I may be having fun, but I they always are glowering and looking pissed off. And, you know, who needs that?

00:41:43.780 - 00:41:54.640

Man? Maybe they need another. You know. Maybe it's their thing. Really is their thing. They're all far simple. Cats are always looking uptight, you know. And Charles doesn't look up tight.

00:41:54.640 - 00:42:16.200

And I like that. I like how Charles is I look. As a matter of fact, he's my, one of my favorite jazz Kees, you know, because he's so Rocky, really questions, but just identify yourself.

00:42:18.780 - 00:42:31.760

You say that you know experiences are common to all of us, but there's one experience is not common to all of us. That's the question of being honest, and that's what the blues is. Well, it's not really honest either. The blues is as

00:42:31.760 - 00:42:48.280

Jive as to be, yeah, but Jive honest. You're right, you're right. There's no moon crooning blues at all. There's no absolutely, it's things that really happen.

00:42:48.580 - 00:43:03.540

But the blues world, the recorded professional blues world, is about as commercial crazy, yeah. Well, it isn't really. It was at one time in Chicago. It's money

00:43:03.540 - 00:43:17.520

water is honest when he plays in front of spades, but when he doesn't, he plays here in Gilmore, he puts on a show. It's so embarrassing I can't even look at him. It's not the man that I used to revere for his strength and sincerity is up

00:43:17.520 - 00:43:26.960

there, just pussyfooting around, you know, to these teeny box was just disgusting, you know, just wow, because he wants to make it like everyone else, and

00:43:27.200 - 00:43:52.060

I'm glad what he does me musically, but I'm so happy to see buddy cleaning money, looking into Sure, got crazy fast, sure. But the only thing is, yes, why musician?

00:43:52.060 - 00:44:06.360

Just a musician? A musician can get his commercial and it's as blatantly a prostitute himself as he can. But if he keeps his chops, if he always keeps his chops, you know. And every time he plays, it's good music, you know. I don't care if it's Lou

00:44:06.360 - 00:44:20.720

guy, Charles, if he's playing in the worst third rate uncle Tara movie and where I've seen him, you know, or that crazy cartoon, you know, it's just so fucking gross and tasteless. But by God, pops is blowing Tara. Pops is blowing. And that saves it. That

00:44:20.720 - 00:44:38.420

saves it. You know, the Pops can always gonna blow, always is gonna blow. And that's how Kees salve that feeling inside. You know, it's how they do it. And it's weird, because the most bitter, militant, militant Negro I've ever met, only beautiful

00:44:38.420 - 00:44:54.040

things to say about Louis Armstrong, only beautiful things, just the most, because he's pops, you know, what can you say? Just? What can you say about him? Man, so strange. I don't know where I'm going now. And I'm going in two different

00:44:54.040 - 00:45:06.360

directions now, musically, I got a band here. This band, I guess, is capable of playing anything right now we're playing our. Being in blues and rock and original tunes, because we really like it most, and please be the most to play rhythm

00:45:06.360 - 00:45:21.440

blues. I just love on RV. I just love it. I like to hear it. I like to hear it going around my head. Know what I'm playing it personally. I think my musical directions are going, Oh, I don't know, more towards Charles Linley Ornette, or Mort, towards

00:45:21.440 - 00:45:34.820

Ornette in a way, just just, just melodic, free melodic playing, you know, absolutely free melodic playing. And the only discipline being the melody itself, you know, and that's where I'm going. Personally, I've got a lot of tapes here of

00:45:34.820 - 00:45:48.700

me, the sax player, jamming, you know, playing music like that. You know, just free melodic playing. But that has nothing to do with this band. Eventually, Jan's like, I'd like to get this band sort of into the type of thing. And Mingus 10 piece

00:45:48.700 - 00:46:02.160

groups are into, you know, Mingus can really improvise with five horns and once Avenue, because he really rigidly restricted. He said, Now Werner, he probably said, work this. We're all going to improvise on this scale, you know, this type

00:46:02.160 - 00:46:14.760

of blue scale, and well, Mingus horn players are also sensitive. They know about if Mingus puts them in an idiom, by God, they're going to stay that idiom. You know, you're not going to hear Johnny Hodges mellow, sweet, lovely thing in a

00:46:14.760 - 00:46:28.700

really funky number. And that's what I want to get out of this man, to realize esthetically and idiomatically, where they're at. We're playing this by Dodie. Play this. And too many rock and roll groups throw in too much stuff, you know, that every

00:46:28.700 - 00:46:41.560

influence he's ever had, he just puts in cliche by cliche. I want this man to meld all their influences together, and then it will come out, you know, and that's, that's where she like Duke, sort of like Ellington, in a way, because that's what he

00:46:41.560 - 00:46:53.680

did, you know, and I was always together. And I'm really interested in the, of course, colors, as many colors as I can get, ensemble colors and sounds, and, you know, just as many ways I can voice those instruments, you know, and voice them with

00:46:53.680 - 00:47:10.020

voices, human voices, and with words, just as many blends as I can get. I don't know. Do you see? Really? My friends in jazz has really taught me very little because I never listened to it, except your Hans. Do it never You seem like know the right

00:47:10.020 - 00:47:20.360

names. Well, I'll tell you what the story about it. Two years ago, I got, I realized in my head, my musical head, was enough that there was probably no American music that I couldn't

00:47:20.360 - 00:47:35.600

comprehend. And I got all the jazz records. When I see all the jazz records I get every major jazz artist, every major one, which is about 500 500 names, you know. And I got them all true Berry, Ben Webster, Tom bias, every huge anthology I

00:47:35.600 - 00:47:50.080

could get of tenors, you know, all the old reissue records. And I just listened to all the jazz that I could chronologically, and I heard it all, and I spent a lot of time not doing anything but doing this to know what where it was at. And it just had

00:47:50.080 - 00:48:06.120

no relationship to me. I mean, I don't know. I like when I, when I started studying Kansas City jazz, well, man, it just sounded like the stuff I was raised with in Chicago, Joe Turner and Lou it sounds like that, you know, sounds like Bill Haley is a man,

00:48:06.900 - 00:48:22.220

really, and, and why here? Charlie Parker, about five years ago, I couldn't even decipher that music my head. It was like, it was just like, like, like, like, Chinese music I listen today. It sounds square, right? It's beautiful, fantastic music

00:48:22.220 - 00:48:35.960

by a genius who could blow so beautifully, my friend, it's not a square to me. It's improvising on changes that are corny, changes, not even good tunes, and the improvisations are right on those changes. And he occasionally gets dissonances,

00:48:35.960 - 00:48:49.420

and it's he was an innovator, and no one ever did that before him, you know. And he did it really good, but to my ears, because I'm not conditioned to hearing like I wasn't listening to Ben Webster for 10 years before, you know, you know. So

00:48:49.420 - 00:49:00.360

when I heard Ben Webster, I would listen to Ben Webster and then Charlie Parker, you know, Charlie Parker didn't sign that radical departure from bed, from bed Webster. Well, from this perspective, he isn't, I mean, like he was

00:49:00.360 - 00:49:15.060

radical to those people right playing, or mostly who were listening. It wasn't musicians who caused that confidence. It was the musicians. Man to Jay mcshan, and that you imagine the look on his face like Colin

00:49:15.060 - 00:49:26.840

Hawkins, who dug it and tried to put those cats in their van. But there were a lot of writers who didn't understand the wine is always slow. I don't know, but I think maybe Colonel Hawkins and those people

00:49:26.840 - 00:49:39.020

dug it because Charles Parker's chops were fantastic. Here's a cat that blew so hard. But, man, I just, I don't know if they really dug. Dug his music. You know, the things that he was doing, you know? Well, he had

00:49:39.620 - 00:49:55.660

monk in his band for a while, just like today, like Coltrane having younger Kees market did, another thing was the war came along. A lot of guys who sat there didn't get a chance to hear that music, but when they came back, they, you know, their

00:49:55.660 - 00:50:14.900

first reaction was negative. But after that, they tuned in Mort. You budget. You see, I don't know, I love all the old jazz. God, I listen to so much, but I'm just so much jazz from the 30s and 20s and the bands and the Harlem scene, man, you know,

00:50:14.900 - 00:50:26.780

I just love how that stuff sounds. There wasn't that much image between the blues in that era and the Basie band, and Jay bacalao blues bands, big jump bands, jump bands, a big old jump band.

00:50:26.780 - 00:50:39.200

That's all it was, Hey, God, but what happened with the Parker and that generation of people was that they be that again, thinking, Well, being a blues band is being a David besides, besides just not

00:50:39.200 - 00:50:51.700

wanting to be a big band anymore, playing blues, playing dance music and so forth, is not dignified. It's not art. Art is playing music for listening. And you know, like that's the way European music went to but from our perspective in the 1960s we

00:50:51.700 - 00:51:03.720

can see that, of course, you know that even though Parker was an innovator, his innovations were rooted in a certain tradition. Of course, the new cats, they aren't rooted in any

00:51:07.140 - 00:51:20.660

tradition. Archie chef. Archie Shep is not what I would consider a non mainstream cat. Archie Sheps music is not that weird to me. I hear Archie and you know, he's right there with training Farrell centers, but Sun Ra and

00:51:20.660 - 00:51:35.780

Albert Eiler and John and John Shakai and those cats were playing music that is really indecipherable to me. Well, not even indecipherable I can I understand what it is to me. I consider a music man really a music, anti music, anti music in

00:51:35.780 - 00:51:49.480

every way. They're really getting into sound. And it's very good and very fine, and it's non mainstream, and it's very groovy, you know, but it just doesn't get pretty enough for me. Man. I like lyrical I like I like major sonorities. I

00:51:49.480 - 00:52:01.660

like Bum Bum Bum bum. And I never even hear that, you know. And I mean, this just was just all the same thing. I just never go to the other end of the pole. Have you heard that's not true, but either play some metal stuff.

00:52:02.020 - 00:52:13.260

Have you heard of mine? Balance stuff. Have you heard of mine? Where have you just heard on record? On record, when you talk about you don't do those children's tunes? Yeah, I do folk tunes, those little folk

00:52:13.260 - 00:52:31.160

tunes, those are his major Those are his passes, ballads. Really valid. They're really very slow. They're almost bragging. They're like, Requiem here. So slow, yeah, but the like very

00:52:31.160 - 00:52:51.460

slow pieces, but they were like, four months ago when I heard ascension, you know, I thought it was just too crazy, and I just heard it again, and it wasn't too crazy at all. Fabulous. It's beautiful. So me,

00:52:51.580 - 00:52:59.560

it's me. How many guys do you think we were together with ascension the first time they heard it? I wasn't there. I still am not really

00:53:00.340 - 00:53:20.840

comfortable with it. No, I'm not either. I'm finally making cultural sense. I'm seeing what's happening. You know, I played his tune first. He tried to Connor. Well, that's so I said, just shut up and just listen for the time. He always

00:53:21.200 - 00:53:42.680

says, please. He sat there for three hours. This guy, he don't he don't understand. They sit there and listen. Was honest enough to set their list. If you find a honest position, you can find them and say, use your Robert. Other people who are,

00:53:42.740 - 00:54:00.220

you know, other people take a name to them. No, but I don't know where it's gonna go from here. Really well, jazz is in a very bad way, because, really bad way now, because there's nobody who's really geared understand,

00:54:00.520 - 00:54:14.640

there's no mass audience. People are here to understand that make any sense. But the thing that save jazz, very commercial, candies, Lloyds and burdens, very, very super money making good looking, cute

00:54:14.880 - 00:54:32.240

personality, show, state show, young man, that's your position, too, isn't it? Definitely is, yeah. I see my positions at a cat, he first starts listening. He don't hear all this shit that goes on. I mean, maybe you did. Maybe you're an exception. You

00:54:32.240 - 00:54:48.700

got through in the cultural bag that the average kid getting thrown in, this white kid, right time at the right place. Yeah? So right place. So, but the average cat doesn't get that. So he gets to this other place through the Hans

00:54:48.820 - 00:55:01.740

Absolutely. That's the way he makes it absolutely, or he gets to the boys and Hans, the rock and roll right either way. But really, I think that's what's gonna save jazz. I'm sure of it, and I'm sure. Is to it really, because

00:55:03.240 - 00:55:11.160

people may not consider them valid, you know? Yeah. Well, they annoy me because I hear so much more going on, and I want them to play that way. Yeah, Einstein's

00:55:12.540 - 00:55:27.680

theory, you don't know nothing else. Well, from what I hear, Charles can blow as good as anybody on earth. Charles can blow as good as anybody on earth. Man, Kees, Kees, Kees is the best piano player in jazz today. Man,

00:55:27.680 - 00:55:41.380

outside of Mom, he is the best. You don't think so. Tara, live, I think Kees could play like that. He can play a lot, a lot of people. Dodie, I don't think,

00:55:41.740 - 00:55:54.040

I think Cecil would want to, I don't think he could. I don't think he actually could. I mean, I don't think actually he would play. Wouldn't want to. I mean, maybe he could do it. He knows Hans

00:55:54.040 - 00:56:00.820

could do it, you know, of course, no, though he's like, they said that. I asked Albert, I like, you know, they said, well, but let's just see how limited man. I mean,

00:56:00.820 - 00:56:17.820

Kees, Kees can play that way and enjoy it other thing, and dig it and play it idiomatically and correctly. And Kees has got the whole Weldon. Maybe he's not as truly honest and ballsy as Cesar Tara sports his own thing and, by God, Henze thing. And that's

00:56:17.820 - 00:56:31.040

where it's at. No, well, that's not where I'm at either man, I have taken all American music and I'm content playing that. I'm content playing the music of my country, you know. And I mean nationalists, I'm not trying to speak nationalistically about my

00:56:31.040 - 00:56:41.860

country, a wild, great thing, but just this is the music I heard. By God, this is the music I'm going to play. And you're right. Man, Charles Lloyd and those Capitola are light entertainment. It is light entertainment.

00:56:41.860 - 00:56:53.020

I don't think you've used that way. I think, you know, I'm much more respect what you're doing than what they're doing. I think, Well, I think you're prejudiced against it, man, because they're very commercial, very commercial, and they make

00:56:53.020 - 00:57:03.000

no bones about it, and maybe they're copying, I don't even mind that too much, as the fact is that they are profiteering on the music of other people while those other people are starving, Cecil doesn't work two weeks out

00:57:03.000 - 00:57:12.840

of the year. I would think, if you add it all up, far as honors before the train didn't work out, what can you do about it? No one wants to listen to him. Well, that's the whole thing, or the government. Charles boy was as

00:57:12.840 - 00:57:25.220

smart as a smart cat. Man, Charles boy said, why? I don't want to starve. Man, you don't know whether anyone wants to see Charles boy is making money without prostituting himself. Man, everything he plays, you think he's processing yourself.

00:57:25.220 - 00:57:37.280

He's wrong. You're wrong. Man, everything he plays, he gets into, he's having fun, and it's valid. It's good cool, it's good music. You wanted to play, you wanted to play a certain thing. You wanted to play that new thing you wanted to get into

00:57:37.280 - 00:57:50.080

there, perhaps Charles dicks playing. What he's what I would say is this, anybody can play, we play Coltrane stuff as well as Charles can do is probably good enough to be able to play his own thing. I don't care what it

00:57:50.080 - 00:57:59.680

sounds like, as long as it's his, what he's doing now, somebody copying Coltrane, not really, not everything, no, not really. Well what I've heard on record, what I've heard last

00:57:59.680 - 00:58:10.980

time I heard it, is, it is, it is in a way. It is in a way. But you know why he does anything do? I think he thinks the other cats are so inferior to Coltrane. I mean, I just, I think the islands,

00:58:10.980 - 00:58:21.260

I want him to copy Island. I wanted to play his own what he wanted to do, what the Islanders and those cats are playing their own thing, and it's shit compared to Coltrane. It might, necessarily,

00:58:21.620 - 00:58:32.180

I wouldn't go. I wouldn't say, well, it is it to me, it is because Coltrane had everything in his music. He had the utmost sensitive lyricism that the squares Pollock could

00:58:32.180 - 00:58:42.500

understand. Don't forget, Coltrane had me hired Farrell to be in that man. He asked Albert to appear with him on concerts. He had RT shop in that band too, because I think Coltrane was feeling a little old. He wanted some young blood around well, or

00:58:42.500 - 00:58:50.680

he didn't. Well, very definitely he wanted, he wanted to keep abreast of what was happening, right? Well, so he didn't draw the distinction. No, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're really

00:58:50.680 - 00:59:07.620

right. But I don't know. Man, I don't think, no, I just do not think that that the new Tara, the new sax players, the really new sax players, are that valid? Man, there's so many miles away from where Coltrane was as a musician. They're not good

00:59:07.620 - 00:59:20.540

enough. Man, they're new graduate. Well, they're not, but Charles is really good. He's, I think he plays better than those cats. Man, he's played so good. He sounds more agreeable, is what you mean. Really, you're right, and

00:59:20.540 - 00:59:32.480

therefore he's easier to digest when you go to hear Albert or Farrell, that's, that's a harrowing experience. It's not easy. It's not easy to go listen this. It's get pissed off at a guy. You

00:59:32.480 - 00:59:49.420

got to try to figure, why am I pissed off? I know I haven't really lied well. I've heard him live, and I've heard him on record, who Farrell, Saunders and Albert, and Albert, I own a record

00:59:49.780 - 01:00:03.540

signers live. I've never liked it, man. I've never liked it, the music, because, because I just don't like it, I understand it. They're not doing anything too free. Key for me. I'll make more noises on my guitar than they'll ever make in his whole

01:00:03.540 - 01:00:16.080

life. I'll play just as fast. Jimi Hendrix, you want to get into hate music? Man, to screams. Those cats are just pictures, compared to Jimi Hendrix, that cat plays. Man, not even notes. He goes just you heard Jim

01:00:16.080 - 01:00:26.300

Henze, oh in the album, and it didn't move me. Then when I heard it in Music City, and you know, like five what can you hear in five minutes of music city? Well, go listen to that album. He's so much more

01:00:26.300 - 01:00:36.440

like Farrell sanders that Eric is. There's just no comparison. Jimi Hendrix is just the epitome of the young black hate thing, man, even. But he doesn't talk like that. You know, in the interview, I mean, he comes on with a wholly

01:00:36.440 - 01:00:46.780

different Oh, right. But what do you listen He really plays agonized music. He plays, I mean, way more agonizing those guys because he's there. They're struggling with this tempered instrument,

01:00:46.960 - 01:01:00.240

and the guitar is just not Tara, with an untempered electric instrument, you can play about as agonizing as a human would be, if you want. If Jimi Henze want to, he plays a white audience. He can kill him with sound. He could get a

01:01:00.240 - 01:01:14.280

synthesizer and turn his amp up so loud it'll split your bill, break windows, man, you know. And he will do this, you know. I've seen him just sock it to you. Hate sock that hate to you, man, you know. So he's really successful at it. I can do that

01:01:14.280 - 01:01:26.540

too. I can just scream and wail on that guitar. It's so agonizingly as can be, by God. I just can't do that for all the time. Does he do it all the time? Henry, No, hell no.

01:01:26.600 - 01:01:35.300

I just can't do it all the time. But Cecil and them can't do it all the time. I'll tell you one thing. I went to a Cecil I arranged for and went to a Cecil Tara concert University of

01:01:35.300 - 01:01:48.760

Pittsburgh, and it moved me so much that I couldn't take any pictures. And then that means it moved me quite a bit. So like, I didn't even unpack the camera out of the bag, and it wasn't and I could, I feel more comfortable listening to an hour

01:01:48.760 - 01:02:02.520

to an evening of hate than anybody else. If that's what was going down. I found it concerts by some of these guys. And I've been bored, you know, and you know, I have too. But on the other hand, it's, it's what would help eventually, here is a

01:02:02.520 - 01:02:11.460

chance to play in public, which they don't have. When you say, nobody likes the music, well, nobody's heard the music, what I would say is, you know, like they would be they played in public, they'd be

01:02:11.460 - 01:02:24.080

laughed off any any stage, maybe, so maybe not. They played public in the village theater New York. Charles can play on The Ed Sullivan Show and do really well. And if you want to

01:02:24.080 - 01:02:31.940

castigate him for that and thinking he's prostituting himself, I don't think that's not the point. The point is, if somebody plays The Ed Sullivan Show, does that mean he's better

01:02:32.600 - 01:02:44.020

than somebody who couldn't play, he's more agreeable to him. Well, what I say is that there have to be certain feedback vibrations that a guy like Tyler, the new thing only pick up, say, for working two weeks at the Fillmore. Now there

01:02:44.500 - 01:02:55.540

that might have a lot that one, yeah, really, I'm looking to make my jewel Welch. Well, well, at the Fillmore, that's what I'd like to see. That's the guys, like, I learned being booked there, because then if nobody dug it after you, you

01:02:55.540 - 01:03:06.240

say, all right, man, well, there's nothing happening here, and blah blah. But now you can't really say that, because can't have any the records ESP he gets on fly by night. Operator wants to make a quick killing, and he goes in and he throws some

01:03:06.240 - 01:03:21.480

schlock on wax and prints 2000 copies, and throws him to a couple of bookstores here and there, and that's it. Man, that's a fair test, if anyone's anyone's sound. I mean, I see you working for on ESP records. No.

01:03:21.480 - 01:03:35.480

See me on ESP records too. I think that catch a crook, whether he's a cooker, all those little cats have largely in their soul because they think on a small amount of Capitola make a big killing. That's the American

01:03:35.480 - 01:03:46.000

dream too. Isn't, of course, absolutely something for nothing. No, I don't know. Hey, tell the fucking truth, man, I'm Frank. You're so given this thing,

01:03:46.960 - 01:03:57.520

nobody's, nobody's, well, I've read the articles about you. I told you when I met you that I've been just that day before it studied all the writings of yours that I could have gotten my hands on through jazz

01:03:57.580 - 01:04:17.940

magazine. No, you're Dodie, I would really like to read. I don't know it's really a crazy scene for a young white musician

01:04:17.940 - 01:04:29.540

now wants to play music like this, music player in our just cool, we got a fighter. Man, it's because he can't get a gig, because they fucking won't let him. There are no games. There are no gigs. Man, Cecil Taylor can't

01:04:29.540 - 01:04:43.000

get a gig, money gig. He can't get cast to play with him. There are nobody plays with anybody in New York. That's New York's a doggie Dodie. Man, I don't mention any names, but I, you know, like, I've driven home rhythm section, you know, from

01:04:43.000 - 01:04:52.720

Cleveland to Pittsburgh after a concert, and I had some of the cats in the car, and they were talking about, well, this musician in New York says this other cat isn't even a musician. And these are guys who were to the guys who were in the

01:04:52.720 - 01:05:04.680

forefront. They're both black, not a question of race or anything. New York is just New York. New York the doggie Dodie, and it's out by publishing and advertising. And dance and theater. Jazz is there. Jazz picks up those same vibrations.

01:05:04.860 - 01:05:15.660

They hate each other. Really. It's pathetic. It's pitiful. But Chicago is not only as much ahead of New York because they're the musicians are getting together, and they have a cooperative thing going nothing like that.

01:05:17.040 - 01:05:26.120

What started this whole big thing about the new music, this huge controversy, Kees just said it wasn't valid. And you said it was valid, I didn't start it. I mean, I first of all, the writer is

01:05:26.120 - 01:05:41.660

powerless without without musicians to play the music. What really started it was, as far as I can tell. I mean, there were surface rumblings of discontent when Ornette Coleman played in Monterey and when he then went back ornettes Not

01:05:41.720 - 01:05:58.000

ordinances. The easiest understanding. Most lyrical, he's a melodious. All he is pure, deep, melodious. And just to follow him is like following most logical, gorgeous thing, you know? But in 1961 a candidate, Johannes,

01:06:06.000 - 01:06:21.680

yeah, really, it's not about it's not about Blue. It's about jazz, early Hans. I was saying 1961 China did this piece. Did an in person review, Coltrane or Nelson saw crap back to coin the word anti jazz, and that would have, you know, Tim is a nobody.

01:06:21.680 - 01:06:32.900

Always has been. You know, he's out of the music. Now, probably always won't be, but Leonard feather picked it up and endorsed that. Then that started, you know, back and forth away, polemics. On one side is there a guy like Leroy

01:06:32.900 - 01:06:45.280

and Bob Levis, who's an excellent writer, who said that feather was wrong, and this was music. And originally pivoted around Coltrane into a degree or in a coma. Then these other cats got in one I've you know, I came in relatively late because I was

01:06:45.280 - 01:06:57.100

in California and I didn't hear the music. Live records aren't enough to turn you into the whole genre is only. The only thing critical based himself on, is he really knows all, all that's happening in

01:06:57.100 - 01:07:06.840

that bag. And all the cats imitators and all the cats works, whether he's live and he's a good night or a bad night, you can't tell that on partners number one. You can only tell that by

01:07:06.840 - 01:07:19.380

hearing that you can only do in New York. And even then, even in New York, you probably can't do that much of that anymore because the gigs are so scarce. There are no gigs. The cats don't play together. They really don't, yeah,

01:07:19.380 - 01:07:30.680

and that's because Tony Scott likes to hire those cats work with Tony has an excellent musical takes in that regard. Tony's very lazy too, and likes to have a bunch of cats sitting in all the time. Blow so he won't so he can sit

01:07:30.680 - 01:07:42.640

around. You know, it's because he's a middle aged man. You know, he loves that easy blow your guts, really. And he pulls his guts. I think he plays best clarinet,

01:07:42.640 - 01:07:55.480

Clarinet I've ever heard. Man, I mean, today, you know, because I already played with Roland Kirk there one night. And man, he was playing right with rolling, I mean, just screaming and shouting, and Weldon on that clarinet. You

01:07:55.480 - 01:08:09.300

got some nice and that's hard to do. Clarinets on the easy instruments to scream on, very hard. He can really do that. You know, really good. You know, what I've been hearing you all this time is a sound you're

01:08:09.300 - 01:08:22.580

out. Peter, our sax players. Very, cool training. Very, very, I'm really sorry I missed him. Is he back in the band yet? Or, Oh, no one is in the band now. Oh, but he wasn't even playing the night. I

01:08:22.580 - 01:08:33.320

was there. No, he wasn't there. No, yeah, nobody wasn't there that night. No, but we've got it. We can't, really, we don't even have numbers feature him, because the bass player, the drummer, can't play

01:08:33.320 - 01:08:44.920

for you. Have no idea how to, you know, it's really a drag. So Peter and I play together all the time. It's just, it, just they can't conceive of that, you know, that can't kill

01:08:45.460 - 01:08:54.340

Yeah, sure, sure. Maybe we ought to shut this mother off. You gotta imagine you talked out anyhow, for the moment you've been talking all right, sweet one.