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Unknown: Too. Isn't it nice? Japanese. It almost works, almost sometimes. Well, the first thing I want to ask you is about a story that somebody told me first night I came here on this trip, the people I was staying with have a friend, a

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young lady, and she was at downtown at one of Malcolm X's addresses speeches and lo and behold, who should plop down in the seat next to it? So right away that Weldon, my curiosity, and I wanted to know how many times you had seen him, and what

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you thought of him when you saw him, and so forth. That was the only time Were you impressed with him, definitely. Well, that was the only time I had to, I felt I had to see the man, you know, and I was living downtown, I was in the hotel.

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Saw the posters he was going to be over there. So I just said, Well, I'm going over there and see this guy, because I never seen him. I was quite impressed. That was one of his last speeches, wasn't it? I mean, it

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some musicians have said that there's a relationship between some of Malcolm's ideas and the music, especially the new music. Do you think there's anything in there? Well, I think that music be an expression of the human heart,

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or the human of being itself does express just what is happening. So then, if it expresses the whole thing, the whole of a human experience, and then particular time that is being expressed.

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What do you think about the phrase the new black music as a description of some of the newer styles in jazz? Well, phrases, I don't know. They don't mean much to me. Usually I don't make the phrases so I don't react too much. It

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makes no difference to me, one way or another, what it's if you did make the phrases, could you think of one? I don't know. What the hell. I don't think I have a phrase. I

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don't have that. I don't think there's a phrase for well, the people, I could make, the people who use that phrase argue that jazz particularly closely related to the black community, and it's an

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expression of what, what's happening there. That's why I asked you about Well, I think, I think it's up to the individual. You can call it what you may reason you may myself, I recognize the artist, and I

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recognize an individual. I see his contribution, and when I know a man's sound, well to me, that's him, that's this man, and that's what I recognize. But it does seem to be a fact that most of the changes in the music, the

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innovations have come from black musicians. Have you ever noticed since you've played all over the United States and in all kinds of circumstances, you ever noticed that the reaction of an audience varies or changes, if it's a

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black audience or a white audience or a mixed audience? You ever seen that the racial composition of the audience seems to determine how the people respond? Well, sometimes yes and sometimes no.

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Any examples? Well, no. I mean, sometimes it might. It might appear to be one. You might say, Well, it's hard to say, man, you know, sometimes people like it or don't like it no matter what color. You don't

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have any preferences yourself about what kind of an audience you play for. Well, to me, it doesn't matter what kind of I only hope

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that whoever's out there listening, I hope they're enjoying it. If people do enjoy the music, how would you like them to demonstrate this? Do you like an audience that's perfectly still

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and unresponsive? Would you like an audience that reacts more visibly to the music? Well, I guess I like an audience that does show I respond. I

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remember sometimes when you played the jazz workshop in San Francisco, you really got that kind of an audience that you didn't get when you played Charles manhole in Los Angeles, and it seemed to me that that had some effect on the music.

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Yeah, because it seems to me that the audience, the audience by in listening. And there is an act of participation going on there, you know. And when you know that somebody is maybe moved the same way that you are to such degree or approaching

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degree, the degree, or just like having another member in the group, is that what happened? Is that what happened at the ascension date, people who were there, did they get that involved.

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I don't know. I was so darling busy. I was worried that there was mine. I couldn't really enjoy the date. If it hadn't been a date, if it had been a date, then I would have really enjoyed it. I'm trying to get the, you know, time, everything,

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but I don't know. I hope they felt something to hear the record. I mean, I enjoyed, I enjoyed all of the individual projects. That's probably the one record I've had to listen to the most

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number of times to get we got another take on that. That's what Bob Thiele told me, he said he'd mail me the other one. What do you think then about playing concerts? Does

00:06:05.160 - 00:06:22.040

that seem to inhibit the interaction between yourself, your group, and the audience? Well, on concerts, the only thing that bugs me on concerts might be hall with poor acoustics, or acoustics, which

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we can't quite get the unit sound, you see. But as far as the audience, it's about the same. I wasn't too impressed with the acoustics and Friday nights concert. No, that was me. I was sitting right down front, so I

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could hear most of what was going on. But even then, it didn't sound. I couldn't feel I couldn't feel it. You could tell the musicians they can't hear each other, and

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therefore they can't get the wind. Another reason I asked you about Malcolm was because, you know, I've interviewed about a dozen and a half musicians by this

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time, and the consensus seems to be that, especially the younger musicians, talk about those kind of political and social issues, and Malcolm talk about when they're with each other, and some of them say that they try and express this in the music.

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Do you find that in your own groups or in the musicians you're friendly with, these issues are important to you? And you do talk about them? Oh, well, they're definitely important. And as I

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said, they're the issues are part of what is you know at this time, naturally, as the musicians, we express whatever, whatever it is, do you make a conscious attempt to express these things?

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Or do you feel that it just Well, I tell you myself, I make a conscious attempt. I think I could say truthfully that in music I may I make, or I have tried to make, consciously an attempt to change, to change

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what I found in music. And in other words, I've tried to say, well, this, I feel could be better, in my opinion. So I will try to do this to make it better. This is what I feel, that we feel in any situation that we find in our lives, when

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there's something that we feel should be better, we must exert effort to try to make it better. So it's the same, socially, musically, politically, in any department, most of the musicians I have talked to you, are very

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concerned with changing the society, and they do see their music as an instrument by which I think so. I think music is an instrument. It can create the initial just the better thought, you can create the

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change in the thinking of the people in particular. Some musicians have said that jazz is opposed to poverty and to suffering and to oppression, and therefore jazz as opposed to what the United States is doing in

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Vietnam. Do you have any comments on that subject? On the Vietnam you can divide it into two parts. The first part was whether you think jazz as opposed to poverty and suffering

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and oppression. The second part is whether you think that, if so, jazz is therefore opposed to the United States' involvement in Vietnam. Well, in my opinion, I would say yes, because I believe that, in my

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opinion of jazz, we talked about that later, to me, it is an expression of, to me, it's music, and this music is an expression of highest to me, higher ideal. So therefore Brotherhood is there. And I believe with brotherhood there

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would be no poverty, and also there would be no war. To me, I agree with him in the state. That also seems to me what most of the musicians feel. David eisenson, for example, said almost the same thing when I

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talked with him Monday. He said, Well, we're saying in our music, so we want a classless society with that. And these frictions, without the waste and without the warfare, would you care to comment on working conditions for, quote, jazz musicians? Do

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you think that jazz artists are treated as they deserve to be treated, and if not, can you see any reasons why they wouldn't be well, I don't know it's according to the individual you find, many

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times a man may feel that he's the situation is all right with Him, where another man might say, well, that situation is no good for you, you see. So it's a matter of a man knowing himself just what he wants, and that way, according to his values. If

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he doesn't mind a certain sort of treatment, then I'm sure he can get it so you can find it somewhere. If he does mind it, then he doesn't have to put up with it, in my opinion, at the stage, at this stage of the game where I'm at now, I'm I don't

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care too much for playing clubs consistently. Now, there was a time when this felt all right to me because my music, I felt I had to play a lot to work it out, you see, but now I don't think it was absolutely where it was at, but I had to find it out

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myself. Like moving to the country, yeah, I had to go through this thing, you know. Well, now I don't feel this is necessary. I think that it is a matter of being able to be at home and in to go into yourself, in other words, like the years

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before, I was playing, you know, every night. And as such, I don't feel, I don't the situation involving the club is not an ideal one for me. Now, what is it about the clubs that you don't like?

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Well, actually, excuse me, we don't play this 40 minute kind of thing anymore, you see, and it's very difficult to always do this kind of thing now and the music changing as it is. A lot of times when it doesn't make sense, man, to have to have

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somebody drop a glass, you know, somebody asked for some money right in the middle of Jimmy garrison. So, you see, and these kind of things are calling for some other kind of presentation. In other words, these really are artists who are playing it.

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They're not really being treated like artists. They're being treated like part of the cash register. I think the music is rising, and my estimation is rising into something else. And so it'll

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have to find this kind of place. Why do you think conditions have been so bad for producing art by musicians? What do you think causes these poor conditions that you've spoken of?

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Well, I don't know. I don't really know how it came about, you see, because I do know there was one time when music, musician played more dances, you know, and I used to play theaters and, well, this took away one element, you know, but

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still, it was hard work these guys had to do, because I remember those one night is pretty, pretty difficult, you know. But it just seems that the music has just been directed by businessmen, I would suppose, who know how to arrange the

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making of $1 and so forth. And maybe often, the artist hasn't really taken the time himself to just figure out just what he's or if he does feel it should be within some other way. And I think these are the things which are being thought about Mort.

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Now that's what I find too. Do you think the fact that almost all of the original Jazz musicians were black men and have continued to be throughout the generations, you think this encouraged the businessmen to take advantage of them and to

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treat their art sort of with this contempt bringing up the cash register in the middle of a bass solo? Well, I don't know. Most of the owners I noticed are white, yeah, well,

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this could be, how do you think conditions are going to be improved for the musicians? Well, there has to be a lot of self help. I believe work out, you know, their own problems, meaningless area,

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like, for example, the jazz composers guild was trying to do, yeah, I do think that was a good idea. I don't think it's dead. I mean, we. Was just something that couldn't, couldn't be born at

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that time. The first time, this is the history of all kinds of organizations in this country, is not always successful the first time, but I think it's inevitable that musicians are

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going to try, yeah, organize and protect themselves against for example, I was at the five spot Monday night, and I figured that there are about 100 tables in there, and two people at a table comes to about $7.50 a set at three drinks a set. That means

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he's making $750 say, a set, and he has five sets. And I know that musicians for that night aren't getting anywhere near five times $750 or even two times $750 so actually, it turns out that these businessmen are not only damaging the art, but

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they're even keeping people away. Yes, putting them up tight, lot of people. Man, I feel so bad sometimes about people coming to club. I can't play long enough for them because, you know, you're hustling me on. And,

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yeah, they come to hear you play, and you get up, you have to play a little bit and split. Something has to be done about if it hadn't been for Elvin taking, you know, the bartender aside, I couldn't

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have stayed there because I ran out of money after a set. Do the musicians who play in these newer styles look to Africa and Asia for some of their musical inspiration? I think so. I think they look all over. Do

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they look some places more than inside and inside? I heard you, for example, talking about making a trip to Africa to gather musical sources. Well, I intend to make a trip to Africa together, just together,

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whatever I can find. Particularly, do you think that musicians are more interested in Africa and Asia than in Europe? As far as musicians have been exposed to Europe, so other

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parts that they haven't been exposed to, which I think they're trying to, at least, I speak for myself, I'm trying to have a rounded UC education. Is that the significance of those rhythmic instruments that

00:17:16.320 - 00:17:31.640

you've incorporated into your group, to give it a sort of Middle Eastern or African well, is, if so, maybe so, but it's just something I feel. Why do you think that the interest in Africa and Asia is

00:17:31.640 - 00:17:48.640

growing at this particular time? Well, it's just time for this to come about. Bill Nixon suggested it might have something to do with the fact that many fact that many African nations became independent in the 1950s and

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changed the way Negroes in this country looked at themselves, gave made them more aware of the African heritage, and made them more interested in going back and looking for it. Do you think there's anything to

00:18:01.000 - 00:18:13.860

that? Linley i Another question along the same lines is, seems that group improvisation is growing in importance. For example, what you did with Pharaoh when you were both playing

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simultaneously, and also, of course, ascension. Do you think that this is a new trend now, or not a new trend, but do you think that this is growing in importance now, just playing well, maybe, I don't know. It seems to be happening. I don't

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know how long it's gonna stay at this time. Why do you think that's taking place now? I don't know why it just is, but it is there. I'm not making something up when I know And

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another question about the new music, I've noticed that a lot of the new groups are piano less, or even in your case where you have a piano, sometimes you'll have the piano layout during the solo or parts of the solo. Why is, why is this coming

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about at this particular time? Why the desire to de emphasize the piano, or rather, not to de emphasize it, but to give it another kind of position in the group, another kind of role? Oh, I don't know. Because, see, I still use a piano, and I have

00:19:14.280 - 00:19:36.980

Mrs. Brahms, where I feel that I don't need this phone and I might assume, I don't know. Maybe it's because the well, when you're not playing on a given progression, well, it's you don't need, don't really need anybody there to state

00:19:36.980 - 00:19:50.440

these things. And if it would get in your way to have somebody point in another direction you trying to go in this then it'd be better for you not to have a piano. It seems that some of the direction the horns are going in

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too is to get away from the 12 tone scale to play notes that really aren't on the piano. The. You know the high pitch notes, the shrieks and scream I don't know what you what you word you used to describe those words, but I think you know what I

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mean, sounds that were considered wrong, well, still are considered wrong by some people. Now, if you play those notes that really aren't on the piano, and you have the piano there stating notes that are on the piano, do you feel that this

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is some kind of a clash that you'd rather avoid in the group. I suppose that's the way some men feel about it. As I say, I still use the piano, so I haven't reached this point yet. The way, you know, where the piano is a drag to me. You know,

00:20:31.580 - 00:20:48.520

to that degree, only thing I don't we don't follow what the piano does anymore, because we all move in our own direction. You do backdrop sound. You do have the piano that will lay

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out a fairly large part well after a while. And I always instruct the piano players, whenever they wish, they can just lay out and let it, let it go on as it is, because after a while, lots of times piano pianos, when they get tired.

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Stroud, when I talked to you a couple of years ago in Los Angeles, and I asked you if you ever would consider adding another Horning group, you said, probably the thing you would do is, if you added anything, you'd

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add drums. Did you have in mind? Then he's kind kinds of things that I don't even know, man, but I guess so. And that's just I feel, still feel so strongly about drums.

00:21:29.480 - 00:21:40.720

I really do. You said you were listening to African music, and you noticed that if you played that with some of your music, that it still all sounded right, because anything you played over in the drums, yeah, I feel very strongly about these drums,

00:21:40.840 - 00:21:55.300

but just I experimented in it, but we didn't have too much to I believe it would have worked. But, you know, Elvin and McCoy, it was time for them to go. Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be two drums. It could be just drums

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and another rhythm instrument, like, that's what I was really referring to. Yeah, I think so too. They could come in different form, shapes. After all

00:22:05.160 - 00:22:15.540

the things that you were playing up there Friday night, those are rhythm instruments too. Not all rhythm instruments. Oh, that's true. That's what I meant when I said that's what you had in mind. Yeah. Speaking of Weldon McCoy, it reminds me of

00:22:15.540 - 00:22:28.580

something Sun Ra said, and I'll repeat it. I'll make it clear that I don't put any faith in him. But since he said it, and he told me to tell you, I thought I'd pass it along. He says that you hired Rasheed and as a means of driving Elvin and

00:22:28.580 - 00:22:41.320

McClay out of the band because you didn't want them in the band in the first place, but that was your way of doing it. Do you want to answer that I was, I was trying to do something. That was I was trying

00:22:41.320 - 00:22:56.380

to do something, and please, that was the thing I wanted to do in music. And I wanted, and I figured I could do two things. I could have a band that played like the way we used to play, and a band that was going in the direction that this, the one I

00:22:56.380 - 00:23:09.300

have now is going, I could combine these two with the, you know, with these two concepts going and it could have been that, oh yeah, somehow I was quite bitter and claims that you've

00:23:09.300 - 00:23:29.120

stolen all of your ideas from him, and in Fact, that everybody has stolen all of their ideas doing. Some things that I've wanted to do. How do you feel about having another horn in the group now,

00:23:29.120 - 00:23:43.660

another saxophone? Do you feel that that in any way competes with you, or that it enhances Well, well, it helps me. It helps me stay alive. Sometimes physically man, the pace I've been leading has been so hard. Sometimes I've

00:23:43.660 - 00:23:59.560

just been a little, you know, and I've gained so much weight. Sometimes I'm hard physically, and I feel that I like to, I like to have somebody there in case I just don't, can't get that sweat. I like to have it strength in that band, you know,

00:23:59.740 - 00:24:11.880

someone, and Pharaoh is very strong spirit will see, and that's, these are things I like to have up there. Well, strength, it's the words of the band. Now, I mean strength and

00:24:11.880 - 00:24:23.120

energy, energy, yeah, I like to have this energy. Do you feel that? Suppose you are in the presence of, especially a man as powerful as Pharaoh any Yeah, all the time. There's always got to be somebody with a

00:24:23.480 - 00:24:40.780

lot of power, because Elvin, now, in the old man, Elvin had this power. Do you think always had to have somebody Rashid has it, but it hasn't quite unfolded completely, you know, but it's all he needs to do is play.

00:24:41.200 - 00:24:57.640

Yeah, that was my impression, too, that he really was feeling his way ahead in the museum, the confidence that Elvin had. But then, of course, Elvin, look how long was there? For a couple years, although Elvin was ready, first

00:24:57.640 - 00:25:12.420

time I heard Elvin, you know, he was a good he had. Genius, but he had to really play. You had to start playing steadily, steadily and every, every night, or whatever you play. You have to keep building. And it comes out. It's like it was miles.

00:25:12.480 - 00:25:25.580

Took me around two and a half years for it to start developing, you know, like it was going to take the shape. That's what's so tragic about the situation of the younger musicians now, is they don't have that opportunity to play

00:25:25.580 - 00:25:38.060

together. Yeah. This certainly needs to be done. It should be happening all the time. The men would develop sooner. Don Cherry has a new record out, and I think it's a beautiful record on Blue Note. And one of the reasons I think it's so good

00:25:38.060 - 00:25:52.060

is because here he has a group that's worked together for a few months. Yeah, and so he knows how to get put something together for all of the men. That isn't just a date. I know you are, because you know you kept the group alive. Have you

00:25:52.060 - 00:26:05.940

listened to many of the other younger saxophonists besides Farrell? Yes. Could you say see any, oh, I'm sorry, could you see any relationship

00:26:05.940 - 00:26:17.520

between what you were doing and what he was doing? In other words, do you think that he had developed out of some of your ideas? I don't, not necessarily. I think what he's doing is it

00:26:17.520 - 00:26:33.080

seems to be moving music into even higher frequency. To me, it appears that some of the things that you did maybe where I left off, maybe where he started. Oh, well, in a sense, that's what I meant. Yeah, I wasn't

00:26:33.080 - 00:26:47.860

not to say that he, you know, would copy this that, but it's just that he, you know, he filled an area that it seemed that I hadn't gotten to it seems that to me, it appeared that your solo on chasing the

00:26:47.860 - 00:27:02.160

train, chasing the train, that he had developed some of the ideas that you put out there, and he had expressed them in his own way. But this was one of the points from which he had begun. You ever thought of it in that light? No you ever listen to

00:27:02.160 - 00:27:15.780

that record much only when at the time that it came out, I used to listen to and wonder what happened to me. What do you mean? Well, it was sort of surprising thing to hear this back, you see, because I

00:27:15.780 - 00:27:32.600

don't know it came back another way. How did it come back? It was, it was, it was it was a little longer than I thought it was, and it had quite a bit of a fairly good amount of intensity, and, you know, which I hadn't quite gotten into direct

00:27:32.600 - 00:27:42.940

recording before, you were pleased with it. I think it's, you know, to that to a degree. I mean, not, not that I could sit there with it, and, you know, love it.

00:27:42.940 - 00:28:00.900

Well, I know you'd never be pleased with anything. I realized I'd have to do that a better you see, I think it's remarkable record, and I also think you ought to go back and listen to it, maybe, sir, because, yeah, because

00:28:00.900 - 00:28:14.520

I see a lot of the younger boy, I don't see any saxophonist now who isn't playing something that you have at least sketched out before. Archie, excuse me, is the one who's gone furthest in directing his own introduction of his own style. But if you

00:28:14.520 - 00:28:26.480

listen to Archie three or four years ago with Cecil Taylor, he was playing those up and down triad things that you know that really one of your trademarks. But maybe you don't want, maybe, you know, you'd rather not think about

00:28:26.480 - 00:28:43.300

that. No, you know, because, like, it's a big reservoir man that we all dip out of. A lot of times, you'll find that a lot of those things, I listen to John Gilmore kind of closely before I made you it's in the train too. So some of those things on there

00:28:43.300 - 00:28:58.300

are really direct influences of listening to this cat, you see, and I don't know who he'd been listening to, so it is a reservoir. Yeah, it's too bad that he's never had a recording that demonstrated what he could everybody talks about

00:28:58.300 - 00:29:16.140

him. And yet I've listened to, you know, number of sunrise records, which I guess is the only place you can do the only place you can really hear him stretch on his arm or something. After chasing the train came out and then impressions came out,

00:29:16.140 - 00:29:26.660

you did a sort of change of pace. You remember, did the album with Duke and the ballads and Johnny Hartman album. Whose idea were those albums? Were they yours, or were they impulses? Well,

00:29:26.660 - 00:29:48.640

I tell you, I had some trouble at that time. I did a foolish thing. I got dissatisfied with my mouthpiece, and I had some work done on this thing. And instead of making it ruined it, and it really discouraged me, you know, a little bit because I

00:29:48.640 - 00:30:05.160

couldn't. There were certain aspects of that plan, that certain fast thing that I was reaching that I couldn't get, you know, push because I had damaged this thing. So. I just had to curtail it. Well, actually, I never found another.

00:30:05.220 - 00:30:18.120

But after so much of this laying around and making these kind of things, I said, Well, what the hell you know, I might as well go ahead and do the best I can. But at that moment, it was so vivid in my mind, the difference in the in the what I was getting

00:30:18.120 - 00:30:30.380

on the horn, it was so vivid in my mind until I couldn't do it, because soon as I do it, I'd hear it, and it just discouraged me, see. But after the years so passed, well, I'd forgotten that's funny, because, you know, I think I know your music as

00:30:30.380 - 00:30:40.300

thoroughly as any non musician. And yeah, that wouldn't have been apparent to me. Yeah, that's the funny thing. That's one of the mysteries. And to me, as soon as I put that on in my mouth, I

00:30:40.300 - 00:30:51.880

could hear, I could feel, you know, I just stopped, just winning. The other thing, the reason I asked that was because you recall, that was the time you hit around the time you had Eric in and out of the band,

00:30:52.480 - 00:31:06.360

and there was a whole wave of really hostile criticism. Yeah, all this was at the same time. So you can see how it was I needed all the strength I could have at that time, and maybe some of these things might have caused me to feel that.

00:31:06.420 - 00:31:20.120

Well, damn, I can't get what I want out of this mouthpiece. You think Dennis might have undermined your self confidence? Why do you think there's been all this hostility to the new

00:31:20.120 - 00:31:37.880

music, especially man, I never could figure it out, you know, and I wouldn't venture to answer, because, as I told them, then I just felt that they didn't understand. Do you feel that they were

00:31:37.880 - 00:31:52.960

making, they were making conscientious and as thorough an attempt to understand as they could have. At times, I didn't feel they were because I did offer to them anything in this article, and Dodie I asked, I said, if

00:31:52.960 - 00:32:05.160

any of you men were interested in, you know, trying to understand, let's get together and let's talk about it. You know, I felt that they were really, genuinely interested, or thought there was something here that they instead of just

00:32:05.160 - 00:32:22.160

condemning it, what you don't know about, we want to discuss it. Let's talk about but no one ever you know came forth so they didn't want to know what I had to say about it. I think it frightened them. You know, he talked we talked about

00:32:22.160 - 00:32:34.580

this at great length, and he said, Well, these guys, see, I was taking them years to learn how to figure out algorithm on the piano, and now the new music comes along and undermines their entire career, which is built around understanding,

00:32:34.580 - 00:32:50.380

yeah, it could be, I dug it like that's correct, if he figures this is something that he won't be able to cope with. And he won't be able to write about, you see, and he can't write about it. He can't make this and then I realized that, so I

00:32:50.380 - 00:33:08.820

quieted down. I didn't, I wouldn't allow myself to become too hostile back, you know, in return, although there was a time I kind of froze up on the people that down. I don't know. I felt that there was something that it wasn't. I didn't. I felt

00:33:08.820 - 00:33:23.480

that they were letting their weakness direct their actions, which I didn't really sit there. Of course, that makes me want to kill all those people, because I got so much pleasure out of your

00:33:23.480 - 00:33:39.500

music. The test was for me, you know, they could do what they want to do. The thing was for me to remain firm and what I was doing. But that was a funny time, particular period in my life, because I went through quite a few changes, you know,

00:33:39.500 - 00:33:52.660

like home life, everything, man, I just went through everything I was doing. Did this the perfect wrong time to hit you everything I was doing like that? Yeah, it was a hell of a test for me. And

00:33:53.260 - 00:34:07.740

coming out of it. It's just like I always had. Man, when you go through these crisis and like you come through I come out on you're definitely strong. Yeah, did impulse? Did the reaction of impulse to these

00:34:08.400 - 00:34:26.900

adverse criticisms have anything to do with those records that we talked about? Well, I don't know. I think impulse was interested in having a what they might call balance sort of thing, very sort of a

00:34:27.980 - 00:34:45.700

catalog, you know. And I find nothing wrong with this myself. You see, I like most of the songs I even write now have been written, the ones which I really consider songs all ballots. So there's something there that I mean I really love. Love these

00:34:45.700 - 00:35:03.840

things. I love beautiful, these ballads that came out were definitely ones which I felt at this time, and I chose them. It seemed to be something that were laying around in my mind from my. Know, youth or somewhere that I just had to do. And they

00:35:03.840 - 00:35:17.880

came at this time when the confidence and what I was doing on the hunt had flagged. It seemed to be just the time to clean that up. And the Johnny Hartman man that I had stuck up in my mind somewhere, I just felt something about him, you

00:35:17.880 - 00:35:37.940

know, I don't know what it was, and I like this sound. I thought there was something there I had here, so I looked him up. I don't regret doing those things at all. You shouldn't, because Johnny Harmon went with, in my opinion, went with the

00:35:37.940 - 00:35:56.560

Quartet perfectly. Those are the only six songs. I know the words too. I regret not having, you know, kept that same attitude, which was, you know, I'm gonna do no matter what that was, the

00:35:56.560 - 00:36:08.460

attitude in the beginning. But as I say, there was a whole lot of reasons, ups and downs, and I was one of the Do you think that

00:36:09.780 - 00:36:26.720

learning how to play the soprano had anything to do with the change in your style From what it had been saying? How so could you well, Soprano, by being this small instrument, I found that

00:36:28.340 - 00:36:44.680

playing the lowest note on it was like playing the one of the middle notes and tenor. So that's why I, after I got so I could my armature would allow me to make the upper notes. I found that I was I would play all over this instrument, you see, and on

00:36:44.680 - 00:36:57.160

10 I hadn't always played all over it, because I was playing certain ideas which would just run into ranges, Octave, see, but by playing on the soprano and becoming accustomed to playing from that Lou B flat on up, it soon got so long, when I

00:36:57.160 - 00:37:11.760

went to China, I found myself doing The same thing, and this causes change, or the willingness to change, and just try to play as much of the instrument as possible. Did it give you a new rhythmic conception, too? I think so. I

00:37:11.760 - 00:37:23.000

think so. A new shape came out of this thing and patterns, you know, the way the patterns would fall. It seemed to me that after you started playing

00:37:23.000 - 00:37:36.740

soprano, particularly after my favorite things, then you started feeling that same kind of a plus on the tenor that hadn't been there. In fact, Japan is one of the reason I started getting

00:37:36.980 - 00:37:53.380

dissatisfied with that 10 of my PC, because the sound of that soprano was actually so much closer to me in my ear. Oh, there's something about the presence of that sound, you know, that to me, I didn't want to admit it. But to me it was,

00:37:53.380 - 00:38:06.900

seen it like it was better than the telly. I liked it, Mort, see, I didn't want to admit this damn thing because I said, well, the tennis my Hans, this is my favorite. But this soprano, maybe it's just the fact it's a high instrument. It just start

00:38:06.900 - 00:38:22.100

pulling my conception, you see, really was headed going into this instrument. How do you feel about the two horns now? Well, the tenor is the power horn, definitely. But soprano,

00:38:22.160 - 00:38:38.300

there's still something there. And just just the voice. It's really beautiful. I really like do you regard soprano as an extension of the tenor? Well, at first I did, but I don't know. It's just now, it's

00:38:38.300 - 00:38:49.480

another voice. Do you ever use the two horns on the same piece like you did on spirituals? I think that's the only time I've done that. Sometimes in

00:38:49.480 - 00:39:03.600

clubs, if I feel good, I might do something like this, start on one and end on another, you know. But I think that's the only one on record. What prompted Tara to take out the Alto was that to get away

00:39:03.600 - 00:39:11.880

from 10 or so. I don't know this is talking over with him. No, this is something he wanted to do. And about the same time I decided I wanted to get one.

00:39:11.880 - 00:39:25.100

So we both got it. I haven't heard you play the Alto. If you play it much. I played in Japan. I played it in Frisco a little bit, but I've had a little trouble with the intonation of it. Japanese make

00:39:25.100 - 00:39:37.820

the new thing they're trying out. So they gave us these Hans to try. And mine has to be adjusted certain points where they're not quite in tune. So I don't play it, but I like it. I saw a picture of you with a flute. Are you playing that too?

00:39:37.820 - 00:39:50.140

Now I'm learning. I'm learning. You're always learning, aren't you? Mallea looked at the down Beatrice Paul two years in a

00:39:50.140 - 00:40:04.320

row, and both year, this year and last year, both year I noticed both years. I noticed this, that European critics are much more in favor of the new music than. The American, almost say 50% or 60% of them would vote for new musicians, whereas

00:40:04.320 - 00:40:20.040

only say about a quarter of the American this is what you found in Europe and well, let me just say outside the United States that your music is more favorably received by the critics the power structure, shall we say, than in the US.

00:40:20.580 - 00:40:30.020

Well, I tell you in the new music, I believe in that. And when I say new music, I mean most of the younger musicians are starting out. I know that they definitely have found a quicker reception

00:40:30.020 - 00:40:46.420

in Europe than they have here. And when I started it, it was no different, because I started through miles Davies, who was an except an accepted musician, you see, and they got used to me in the States. Now, when they first heard me with miles here, they

00:40:46.420 - 00:41:02.460

did not like I remember anything. It's just one of the things, anything that they haven't heard yet, and it's a little different. But the time it will roll around, the time when they will like it. Now the states, by being here with

00:41:02.460 - 00:41:12.720

mouths and running around the country with him, they heard more of me here, and consequently they began to accept it before they did New York, because they hadn't heard me in Europe. But we found when we went to Europe the first

00:41:12.720 - 00:41:30.080

time, well, it was a shock to them there, you know, like food me and everything in Paris, because, well, it is. But now I find the last time I was in Europe, it seems that the new music, I think that part of this is because what is happening in

00:41:30.080 - 00:41:42.460

the new music is analogous to what's happened in painting, say and sculpture and literature. And the people who appreciate jazz in Europe, I'm much more aware of this

00:41:42.460 - 00:41:56.620

than what do you Well, I don't know. In Europe, jazz is regarded as a serious art, whereas here it's regarded as well business or otherwise, you couldn't have a magazine like, what are you looking for? Jen, you want some

00:41:56.620 - 00:42:09.540

cigarettes? No, I'm just sitting up because my back is wet. Do to get on Yeah. I know Albert is going back to Europe, and I know that there

00:42:09.540 - 00:42:20.280

are many of the England musicians who want to get away from the States because of that thing. They just don't feel that there's any hope for them here. Do you remember third stream music, what was called third stream music?

00:42:21.600 - 00:42:33.020

Did you ever want feel much of an inner urge to play that kind of music? No. Why do you think it didn't catch on with the musicians? Is there

00:42:33.020 - 00:42:58.000

anything about it that suggests why it was never very popular with them? Well, I don't know, like it was an attempt. It was an attempt to create something, I think, with more of label you see than true

00:42:58.060 - 00:43:10.920

evolution. You mean it didn't divide naturally? Well, maybe it didn't, I don't, I can't say that it was an attempt to do something, which is that the evolution is about

00:43:10.920 - 00:43:28.400

trying too. But there's something in evolution that man, it just happens when it's ready, you know, although you have to try also. And this just thing, it wasn't really where it was coming from, you know? It was, it was what was an attempt to

00:43:28.400 - 00:43:42.760

blend to wed the two musics, right? Really was, well, suppose that's what it was supposed to be. Yeah, you said that, talking about saxophone players, there was a common pool that everybody dipped into? Maybe here there wasn't enough

00:43:42.760 - 00:43:59.500

of that pool for people to dip into. Well, it wasn't time. It hadn't it was an attempt to do something at a time when it wasn't time for this to happen, and therefore, it wasn't lasting. But there might, there

00:43:59.500 - 00:44:13.320

may have been some things that came out of this that have been beneficial in promoting good, profound change which is coming. So nothing is really wasted, although it might, you know, it might appear to fail or not succeeded. You know, the way

00:44:13.680 - 00:44:26.180

that men felt they would have decided to. But even the mistakes can be instructive, if you know how to utilize them. Do you make any attempt, or do you feel you should make any attempt to educate your audience in ways

00:44:26.180 - 00:44:37.880

that aren't musical? It's obvious you want your audience to understand what you're doing musically, but do you feel that you want them to understand other things too, and that you have some kind of responsibility?

00:44:38.120 - 00:44:59.020

Sure, I feel this, and this is one of the things I'm concerned about now. I just don't know how to go about this. I don't want to do I want to find out just how I should do it, you know, and I think it's going to have to be very subtle. You can't RAM

00:44:59.440 - 00:45:27.140

philosophy. Is down anybody's and the music is enough, you know. And that's philosophy. But I think the best thing I can do this time is just try to get myself in shape, you know, and know myself. I can do that I'll just play, you see, and leave it

00:45:27.200 - 00:45:47.740

at that. Then I believe that will do it, you know, if I really can get to myself and really and then be just as I feel I should be and play it, you see, and I think they'll get it, because music goes a long way, and it really is, it can

00:45:47.740 - 00:45:56.980

influence that's how I got interested in all those things I was talking about earlier. I mean, in Malcolm X and so forth, I may might not have come to it or come to it as fast if it hadn't been for the

00:45:56.980 - 00:46:15.840

music, because that was my first introduction to something beyond my own horizons. And to make me think about, yeah, what I'm sure, man, I'm sure. I'm really sure of this thing. And as I say, there are things which, as far as spirituality

00:46:15.840 - 00:46:32.840

are concerned, which are very important to me at this time, and I've got to grow through certain, you know, phases of this to other understandings and more, you know, consciousness and awareness of just what it is that I'm supposed to let you

00:46:32.840 - 00:46:45.520

know understand about it. And I'm sure all this will be part of the music, which is to me, you know, I feel I want to be a force for good and music too. Everywhere.

00:46:47.140 - 00:47:04.260

I want to be a force for real good. In other words, I know that there are bad forces. I know that there are forces out here which bring suffering to others and misery to the world. But I want to be the opposite.

00:47:07.200 - 00:47:21.260

I don't have any more of my prepared questions to ask you, or my improvised questions. I had a lot of questions here that were just related to you, all those questions about music. I don't ask the other hero, the other musicians. But I've had

00:47:21.440 - 00:47:34.040

us, you know, I've had always had a very special interest in your work, so I took this up. I don't know what I'll ever get a chance to sit you down on the paper. Do you have anything else that you'd like to get on here?

00:47:40.700 - 00:47:50.920

Would you mind? Or do you have any objection if I publish this interview someplace? Well, I only thing I would like is that you might send me transcript.

00:47:50.920 - 00:48:08.280

Okay, the reason I say that is because you are now a person of such significance and such influence that things coming from the mouths of other people which could just be disregarded, cannot be so easily disregarded when they come from you. And I

00:48:08.280 - 00:48:21.240

know, since from what you said, that you're sincere and wanting to be a force for good. And I think this is one way of getting it in front of a lot of people, sort of thing. So I'll type, I'll have a transcript, type up and send it to you, and you can

00:48:21.300 - 00:48:39.920

that's the only thing I ask. I'll indicate where the shopping carts were rattling. Okay, you can take me back in bum Bay. What time is it now? It's about 12 after one. What time you think about 130 I'll just

00:48:39.920 - 00:49:01.540

leave this thing running until we get something else. Davies, those questions were too silly. No man, much better than I could ever do. Well, I can't play the music to really come up with questions. I mean, you have to

00:49:01.540 - 00:49:20.700

be thinking about something yourself. Yeah, that's the thing, you know, if you can't play Oh, yeah, they named it after the record. It looks nice on the outside. Yeah, yeah. If you can't play it, then yeah.

00:49:20.700 - 00:49:35.420

And if you're going to write about it, you have, I think, an obligation as conscientiously as possible, and always when it's a question of your opinion versus the musicians opinion, to give the benefit of the death of the musician because he knows the

00:49:36.620 - 00:49:45.580

music far better than you ever know. In other words, you have to be humble. But a lot of a lot of a lot of guys aren't humble. They get arrogant because they think they have

00:49:48.520 - 00:50:05.160

some kind of power. Then you lose your true power, that's right, which is to be. Be part of all, you see, and only, the only way you can be part of all is to understand. So understanding, yeah, that means

00:50:05.520 - 00:50:19.440

you have to something you don't understand. You have to go humbly to you don't know. You don't go to school and say sound and say, I know what you getting ready to teach me. You know? You sit there and you learn. You got to be quiet.

00:50:19.800 - 00:50:36.260

That's what So what So annoyed me about all of that stuff that they were saying about you in 61 I couldn't believe it, you know, it just seemed so preposterous. It was so ridiculous, man, just that's what bugged me. It was

00:50:36.260 - 00:50:50.020

just so absolutely ridiculous because they made it appear that we didn't even know this first thing about music, the first thing, and here we were really trying to, you know, push things on,

00:50:52.120 - 00:51:10.140

because they never stand still. No, well, I know that later generations, Eric man, as sweet as this cat was and musician. It hurt me, you know, to see him, seeing him get hurt in this thing you see,

00:51:11.280 - 00:51:23.000

do you think that this possibly contributed to the fact that he died so young? I don't think so. I don't know. Nobody knows what caused mystery about it.

00:51:24.800 - 00:51:43.060

Well, I didn't mean that it was directly, but I mean, yeah, the whole scene man, he Well, he couldn't work. That's what I meant. Really seemed to be a very cheerful young man, so I don't think that would push him, you know, that way. I don't

00:51:43.060 - 00:52:07.440

think so, because he had the outlook very good, optimistic, and he had this sort of a thing, friendliness, you know, to every real friend, type of man who could be he was as much a friend to guy he just met today as he wants to win Henze 10 years, you

00:52:07.440 - 00:52:24.980

know. So this kind of person like that, I don't think it would really, you know, hurt him to the point where he would do something hurt himself, consciously or unconscious, that friendliness is one of the things that has impressed me

00:52:24.980 - 00:52:37.100

about the musicians here. I really didn't expect to be greeted with open arms, because I am an outsider, after all, and yet, I've been amazed constantly at how eager the musicians were to cooperate once they got the idea that I was sincere and that

00:52:37.100 - 00:53:01.020

this wasn't a joke, a con or something of that nature. Yeah, well, man, I think that's all we need. Is empathy. That's the word. Empathy means identification with other people, becoming

00:53:03.000 - 00:53:13.080

becoming what we really are, yes, right, and being considerate of other people and not trying to damage them, treating them, in other words, with the same care that we would want to be treated ourselves. You.

00:53:29.600 - 00:53:45.040

There is a restroom this time, maybe a hotel somewhere, a motel rather. Do you live far outside of wherever we are now. Well, I guess I'm about four or five

00:53:45.040 - 00:53:58.240

miles down the road. Really sound like farmers you went through my boyhood Well, yeah, man, when I come up here and I had to do all get everything I'm get, you know, that's right, because I gotta go

00:53:58.240 - 00:54:14.640

to the store, do all that, because I don't want to come back up here. Thank you. Back. I've gone through this. I don't know. I think I want to get closer to town, because I don't know. Maybe there's something I can do in music, you know? Maybe

00:54:14.640 - 00:54:28.280

I can get a place, little room or something to play. Everybody else has those lofts down in Cooper, yeah? But I would, you know, I mean, that's not really suitable for you anymore. It's okay. It's one thing when,

00:54:28.760 - 00:54:45.340

yeah, yeah, I don't want a loft, but I don't know, maybe there's something I can get to play in. There's some place to be able to work, you know, I'll give somebody some work in. Where do you play at home. Where do you play at home? I heard you

00:54:45.340 - 00:54:57.040

practicing over the place. I thought that was what I heard. Yeah. Well, anyway, there's a room over the garage out there that I'm getting fixed now. I think it's gonna be my practice. You know,

00:54:57.040 - 00:55:12.780

sometimes you build a room and it ends up you ain't still going to. All it. So I don't know. I hope I like it, but I was, I was in the living room anywhere I keep a horn on the piano, and I have a horn in my bedroom, my flutes usually back there goes

00:55:12.780 - 00:55:27.440

when I go there I'm tired and lay down and practice. About how many hours a day do you play? Would you say, not too much. At this time, I find that it's only when something is trying to come through. You

00:55:27.440 - 00:55:44.920

know, really practicing in is known. I don't know how many hours, you know, it's just all day. Oh, no, yeah. But at this time, it's nothing that's coming out. Now, kind of taken in. I was very surprised to hear you practicing at all, because I

00:55:45.640 - 00:55:56.740

just couldn't conceive what you could find in practice. But I know it isn't like that I need to practice. It's just that I want something to practice, and I'm trying to find out what it is that I want the area that

00:55:56.740 - 00:56:03.540

I, you know, want to get into. Well, I guess I'll stop the tape. Yeah, I've got to make.