00:00:01.680 - 00:00:14.400

Unknown: Um, first off, I'd just like to get some background biographical information on, for example, how old you are and where you're from, and how long you've been playing and how long you've been in Los Angeles, and your formal training, that sort

00:00:14.400 - 00:00:25.280

of thing. This is John, by the way, I'm John Carter. I'm 38 I was born in Fort Worth Texas. I went to grammar school and high school there

00:00:26.480 - 00:01:00.000

and did a BA at ba at Linley University, Missouri, from 45 to 49 and an MA at University of Colorado, summers through 56 I've been playing since Johnny Hans.

00:01:00.180 - 00:01:14.940

What else? What bands you've been in, if they're significant or significant, none. I have not been in really any significant bands of any real significance. I mean, big time,

00:01:14.940 - 00:01:33.020

yeah, sure. Significance. I've played with, oh, a lot of groups around town here and did some professional conducting, farnet once at the LA Jazz Festival that was UCLA. What year was that?

00:01:33.020 - 00:01:50.510

6667 whenever that was. And that recording session here, and there's a studio musician, you mean, or your own? Well, I wouldn't call it as Yeah, as a studio musician. Oh,

00:01:50.510 - 00:02:02.320

yeah. I see what you mean as in contrast to having my own group, right? Yeah, just a studio musician, yeah. Did you say when you came to Los Angeles in 61 from Fort Worth. I've been teaching in Fort Worth since

00:02:05.380 - 00:02:24.020

49 and I played all over Texas all my life, seems like, from when I was two. And so we moved here, all my family and 61 and I started to teach here. I'm traveling elementary music

00:02:24.020 - 00:02:44.980

teacher with the LA City system. And have been a teacher here for six years. I mean, since 61 so it would be for what? Eight years? Eight years, yeah. And what else that's admirable. I just want to get that basic

00:02:44.980 - 00:02:56.020

factual data, and I'll get into more interesting stuff in a minute. They'd like to do the same for you. Four score. Oh, one of those. Let's see. I'm 34

00:02:59.620 - 00:03:20.540

where I live in all that business. I guess my family moved around a lot. So maybe I'll say I was born in Cleveland, Mississippi, and during the war years, we came to California, you know, around 40 whatever. And next few years, we

00:03:20.600 - 00:03:35.540

moved to Detroit, then finally settled in Texas, Dallas, 1946 so the bulk of my schoolwork was done later, elementary and high school and college in Texas. Is that where you know John from? Yeah,

00:03:37.160 - 00:03:52.960

well, not actually, no, no, that's correction there. John and I only knew of each other in Texas, even though Fort Worth and Dallas are only 18 or 20 miles apart, we never crossed trails until we came we're in California. I knew of him

00:03:52.960 - 00:04:11.340

through mutual friends I went to when I first went off to college in 52 the school that I attended was called Sam Houston, which I returned to later, but it had become a part of a school which is now called Houston Tillotson college. I did about a year and

00:04:11.340 - 00:04:30.860

a half also of undergraduate work at University of Texas, you know, but I finally got a BA from Houston Tillotson College, a Methodist school in Austin, Texas. I came to California after we were here during the war. I came again after I

00:04:30.860 - 00:04:59.500

finished high school, around 50 what was it? 53 stayed here, 53 and 54 and I went into the service, got out of service. 58 enrolled, went back to college. Then I left school about my junior year. 61 went to New York. You know, on it, stay with

00:04:59.500 - 00:05:10.790

on it. Close to two years, went back to college. Did the last year? Did you record with Ornette during that period? Yeah, but never, I never, because I've never seen anything

00:05:12.530 - 00:05:24.560

Atlantic, very vague. Now seems to be we did about three, two months. It was a part of, oh, that was Hornets, obscure period. Anyhow, yeah. Very much. So yeah, after having gone to the New York with

00:05:24.560 - 00:05:34.580

a splash, if that's what you mean, yeah, there was a period when he was, nobody knows what was going on. A part of it was, yeah. I mean, it's obscure to me, because I was in Los Angeles at

00:05:35.600 - 00:05:54.340

that time. So in 59 when it was far from obscure, oh yeah, he went, Yeah, right. And then in 6061 things kind of petered out for a while. I stayed with on it until the fall of 62 or late summer, I went back to school and did that last year, got a BA

00:05:54.400 - 00:06:12.480

and so that I taught for a year in the public schools in Texas. And then after a year of public school teaching in Texas, I came back to California again, having picked up a family expired before that. You know, wife, three kids, we came back to

00:06:12.480 - 00:06:25.820

California summer of 64 been here ever since, teaching general education. I didn't know you were a teacher too. Yeah, I'm teaching general education here in public school. I don't

00:06:25.820 - 00:06:40.480

teach music by choice. Yeah, I've got the credential for music. As it turned out, when I needed a job, that one was available, there wasn't one music. And since then, it's gone very well.

00:06:40.480 - 00:06:56.620

So I haven't dropped the boat. You know, John and I got this thing started quite some time back, and we spent a great deal of time when there was just the two of us, when there was no group, just, you know, figure out what we're going to do and

00:06:56.620 - 00:07:08.760

how we're going to do it together. I was living in Pomona at the time, distance there, that's killing I know it was. And we went a long time on just back and forth,

00:07:08.760 - 00:07:37.820

back and forth, trying to get things together. You know? How did you come across? There any particular story about how you came across each other? Is that too trivial to go into? On it came to town, excuse me. On it came to town for a big

00:07:37.820 - 00:07:56.140

thing out of UCLA, and a big thing featuring using the orchestra. And he had, he had called me. I was in corner. He had my number, got it from somebody. No, we had, I had talked on it on the phone, but I

00:07:56.200 - 00:08:12.660

know I talked to Moffitt in New York, and when we were living in Pomona, I had now Welch came to town. He used Johannes to conduct the orchestral part of his thing that he was doing. And during that period on, it, was interested in me performing with

00:08:12.660 - 00:08:27.890

that festival. But somehow, because he couldn't get in touch with me or whatever. And in addition to that, I was like out of town. There was something affiliated with my school work that had me up in the mountains science trip. And so when I this

00:08:27.890 - 00:08:37.070

thing happened, I managed to come in town in time to see the concert, and we talked briefly. And he had talked to John and said, well, like, if you're interested in getting a group together,

00:08:38.510 - 00:08:51.520

that was before Bob, well, actually the first when the first time you and I got together, was the summer before that Arnett had come to town to do a concert, oh, a museum, yeah. What year

00:08:51.520 - 00:09:07.680

was that? This must have been 65 what's been after I left, which was in 65 years. I should all remember 65 so we, and I was interested in trying to get a thing going

00:09:07.680 - 00:09:17.400

then. And he was there. So he was saying, Weldon, you and Bobby Brantford ought to get together, because Robert Brantford is here in California

00:09:17.400 - 00:09:36.080

somewhere. So, but we didn't know where Bob was. Wasn't listed with Union at that time, and so we I called the Texas A mutual friend of ours, and he had Bob brothers address, phone number, so I called him, Bob and I finally got together like

00:09:36.080 - 00:09:53.920

that. And then, then, because we had already gotten together, oh, yeah, and have started to work by the time the big band thing was at UCSC, yeah, which was in 66 no door, 60 No. That was 6767

00:09:56.860 - 00:10:10.320

two things followed up. This isn't just in pass. But it's of interest to me. Neither of you have you either tried to work at all as studio musicians, if you had any experience along that line, and if so, what is

00:10:10.320 - 00:10:22.760

it? What sort of experiences have been? What have you found? I haven't even looked for anyone. You haven't that hasn't interested you? Well, it would have it interest me. Mrs. Bobby, it would have interested me to the point of making some dough,

00:10:22.820 - 00:10:37.040

but, but I knew that what would involve would mean my devoting full time to the horn, you see, which would have meant like starting off from scratch with a family and trying to get into the studio bag. Is what it meant to me. It meant conditioning

00:10:37.040 - 00:10:48.100

myself for the gymnastics of playing studio trumpet, which you which which is different than playing? Oh, yeah, it demands, you know, like a conditioning, physical condition.

00:10:48.640 - 00:11:05.010

Not only that, I had big aspirations for being a junior musician at one time, and I there's a difference in your

00:11:08.130 - 00:11:25.100

you know, everything in the studio gets has to be really legitimate. You're called on to play all kinds of music, and it's got to be played quite legitimately. Want it and it isn't in keeping with

00:11:25.100 - 00:11:42.620

them doing things that we consider free, things at all. You know, I my aspirations were stemmed because of the hassle of trying to do it, much like Brahms says, like you

00:11:42.620 - 00:11:59.180

have to get up, you know, like, if there's anybody who can, it's a closed circle, right? You couldn't. You cannot get into unless somebody really knows you, you know, and says, Well, by the hand, takes you in and says, All right, this is, you

00:11:59.180 - 00:12:15.000

know, other than that, I don't know how you get into doing studio work, and I soon became very discouraged with trying. And I'm not sure I would have been happy doing it anyhow. I'm much happier doing

00:12:15.000 - 00:12:28.580

what I'm doing. Well, this is what it's often been alleged, and I want to check up by using your own experience, if I can pursue the point just a second further. Do you think that it's a more difficult being black to crack into the studio circle?

00:12:28.580 - 00:12:46.060

You can look at the number of musicians here in Los Angeles. There are good black musicians here who can play, who can go and sit down and read the music, Bob and I can go on. That's pretty apparent, too. And and, but you you want, there are a

00:12:46.060 - 00:13:01.360

handful of blank musicians in Hollywood who are who are making a good living out of freelance recording. Just a handful. There are many more guys who could do it, yeah, at the same time, there are many white musicians who are also and who are

00:13:01.360 - 00:13:15.240

excluded. It's hard. In, yeah, it isn't the fact that you don't get in. You can't, just, wouldn't, just not exclusively black, but it certainly is an additional

00:13:15.240 - 00:13:29.960

handicap, if that's your aspiration, to having all the other things to be faced, there must be continued, the fact that you are plus you are black. The other thing, this is also peripheral, but I'm seem to be

00:13:29.960 - 00:13:42.340

off on tangents, is now that black study seems to be legitimate. Have either of you thought about or been approached to teach courses in this area by any of the colleges or high schools Southern California.

00:13:44.620 - 00:14:04.020

Oh, good. Where? Cal State, Dominguez, hills. Years ago, I wondered who was teaching at Dodie school, but I'm delighted. I mean, I don't know why you feel about it. Do man, I know the preparation is

00:14:04.020 - 00:14:24.200

difficult, getting out there, oh, you don't live in that. I work in Lou Quinton fly, but it's a gas, rewarding. It. I mean, psychologically, no,

00:14:24.920 - 00:14:45.940

yeah, yeah, yeah. What I see it is, if that court the Black Studies thing is going to be legitimate like you say it is, and it's going to be done like it is, and the cats are going to teach it are going to be, you know, people like myself or like

00:14:47.200 - 00:15:01.020

Sam. You know, the material that I'll get out of books to make available to people is available to anybody you know. But I don't think the course is enhanced because I happen to have a black face. It's because I happen to have. Have a little bit more of

00:15:01.020 - 00:15:19.380

an inside thing on what's happening. You know, right, right. In fact, very often I find I have to translate the records, what they saying. It comes to that, you know, like, what did he say? No, I mean, some blue singer singing, and

00:15:19.380 - 00:15:30.620

nobody understands what he's saying. It comes with that, because that's not a big thing, but that, but it's a little how to that class off and what's really happening.

00:15:30.620 - 00:15:43.300

And this helps to give them a person who is an opposition big insight. What's your student body look like? You mean now, overall, no, just, just in your class, small.

00:15:43.600 - 00:15:57.700

One reason the enrollment was good at first, because, of course, was offered at 10 o'clock. I couldn't teach it at 10. So when I finally settled down to the three thing down to about at this point, 14 or 15 people was very happy.

00:16:00.160 - 00:16:16.860

Establishment there has happened with that. What interests me, particularly is, and especially after hearing the playback of the tapes, is how a group of this caliber could be neglected for so long in Los Angeles. And that's the

00:16:16.860 - 00:16:31.760

thing I don't know. This is my particular slant on it, and if it's not yours, stop me midstream and we'll go off in a different direction. But I'd like to talk about that. No, I know you're not, and that's what that's the thing I want to bring

00:16:31.760 - 00:16:41.200

out, is that this is indicative of some kind of musical renaissance in Los Angeles that simply hasn't been noticed, hasn't been had any attention paid to him, first of all, there's,

00:16:42.400 - 00:16:59.980

there's no place for exposure, you know, like we've been playing what we're playing in the ghetto for a long time, and, well, there are only two giant, three jazz

00:16:59.980 - 00:17:13.360

clubs in the town. Haven't been able to get them to hire to Harrison. So like, Why do you suppose that is, first of all,

00:17:15.400 - 00:17:28.580

playing straight up and down kind of jazz, if we didn't have an album out, we'd have trouble getting a job unless it were a Monday afternoon thing, then that's click ish too. Yeah, I've noticed, all right, but then playing what we're playing not

00:17:28.580 - 00:17:43.540

being the kind of music that a mass of people are going to rush into the club to hear the club owner, you know, being like they are, of course, you know, concerned with having a group there that's a crowd of people are going to come to here.

00:17:43.540 - 00:17:58.060

They're not prepared to stick their take any kind of chance on a group like ours, where, if they go take a chance, they'd rather take it on a group that at least they have personally happy with. You know what I mean, like, it'd be no skin off

00:17:58.060 - 00:18:09.840

a club owners. Now, I don't know what their books are like, but I can look around and count the numbers yes in the club and sit there for a night and figure out what the kind of dose involved and taking the brain for that. So it wouldn't be a big risk for

00:18:09.840 - 00:18:23.720

the cat to use a group like ours on Sunday afternoon, the people who come out just to see people up on a stand with shiny things are going to come in any case, yeah, on a Sunday afternoon. So, but you you can't get that from them, because the group is such

00:18:23.720 - 00:18:36.800

the nature of the music is such that they don't want to be tagged with having done it, you know? They don't want to say, oh, man, he's hiring those funny bands now promoting new things.

00:18:40.360 - 00:18:57.280

Promoting new music and new groups and stuff. Back to what Bob said, if there's no money in it, well, even if there is money in it, because they wouldn't, is Bob argues that they would, and I'm inclined to agree that they

00:18:57.280 - 00:19:14.940

probably make money anyhow, right? Yeah. So it we've done a lot of well, not a lot, but we've done some concert psychologists, we've played Lane state in Los

00:19:15.000 - 00:19:33.680

Angeles, and we've done concerts that did a concert octetal, and we've done quite a few concerts for what's name Bowman Ray Bowman.

00:19:34.040 - 00:19:52.240

Ray Bowman has, Ray Bowman has really Kees, yeah. And we've had more exposure through Ray Bowman, then we have anybody else in town and have not been for him, right? He hasn't either, and he has done and we have a date with him now, April

00:19:52.240 - 00:20:13.920

16, I believe. But he has really gone long other than it hadn't been for him, you know, like we were. Played in the last two years, probably 10 times five maybe. So he there are few people like him who love music, who love music, just for the

00:20:13.920 - 00:20:37.580

sake of the music, and he could see something he liked in us. You know, he has really gone off to help us. Do you get much indigenous support from the ghetto? Well, no, I guess not. Well, let's put it like this. We've

00:20:37.580 - 00:20:51.760

never played long enough so that, well, for instance, one at one point, we were doing a Sunday afternoon thing every Sunday at the coffee house, our

00:20:51.760 - 00:21:16.320

group, yeah, and, and groups like, it was kind of an avenue guard thing, Harrison Hans group, and our group, and a couple more groups, and our whole idea was to to play black music in the black community, to war for for black people, black

00:21:16.320 - 00:21:40.070

audience. And it started to build up into a pretty nice thing. And some kind of negative things happened on the part of the management. I wouldn't want to put that printed down, but just to me, between the two of us, some things happened between

00:21:40.070 - 00:21:52.300

the management. I mean, the management, did some things that we didn't think were really hip things, but we just didn't go back and play anymore. Well, that point I'm making is that that has been the only place that we played with any

00:21:52.300 - 00:22:05.820

consistency, our group and the other groups, so that the black community would have some chance to come and listen to black musicians play black music over a period of time, period of time now, I think that. I think that if we had, we kept and we

00:22:06.240 - 00:22:19.620

continue to do that, I think now it would be a really beautiful thing, right? So you are getting when you were there, we're getting some support. And I think the black community, I'm positive that the black community is receptive to the

00:22:19.620 - 00:22:38.060

kind of thing we do just have to, they would just it, just there has not been that kind enough exposure. And this their receptivity also extends to other related groups, like horses group, say, I suppose, in fact,

00:22:39.620 - 00:22:50.080

on that same program every Sunday afternoon with us, opposite us, or whatever you say. You know, I, like John said, The problem that Weldon was something didn't have anything

00:22:50.080 - 00:23:03.840

to do with music, exactly the dispute between you and the management kind of rank thing, and we didn't dig it. Yeah. What happened, without going into it too much. There were a lot of groups available, and so they were free to pick

00:23:03.840 - 00:23:15.720

and choose, pick and choose and do, manipulate things, to put some hands that they wanted. And it was a creeping, literally, we were just going to do it because we were happy to do it. It represented an

00:23:15.720 - 00:23:35.900

exposure for us. It represented an opportunity play for the back black community. And, you know, we could go and play on Sunday, on Sundays, to an audience that, although at that time, it wasn't Charlie was pretty The house was coming along good. And, you

00:23:35.900 - 00:23:47.140

know, it's hip. It was just hip for us to point in. The black community was black community where we could go, because you can forget the club, because there's no black capito

00:23:47.620 - 00:24:02.100

true, and the black clubs that are there, you'd say, well, a lot of people may have the opinion that Welch, surely you could take your bands into the black clubs. But the black clubs operate like on a club basis, just like the the white, so

00:24:02.100 - 00:24:14.040

called White clubs do. Now, the black clubs that open are interested in selling the drinks and getting the cover. Now, if we drew a lot of people, they wouldn't care what we were playing, just like, I can't say, just like the other groups,

00:24:14.040 - 00:24:29.480

because what happens in a club in the black community, I think, like, what's the Tropicana? Now, if we played there once for the management, the thing is, on the basis of what we were playing, he'd never test to find out if we would draw because what like

00:24:29.480 - 00:24:44.020

what's on the jukebox and what's on the rodeo and what black people listen to on the stations that are black stations so called, are things that everybody knows is a certain bag. So if per chance, the difference probably between a

00:24:44.020 - 00:24:57.580

black and a white club, the political thing would never come into it. If we ever auditioned for a club, a black club, and we played there one night and the house was packed, then we'd continue to play there, you see, I can't swear that that'd be

00:24:57.580 - 00:25:07.200

true at another club, you know. But. It. It does show that the so called Black bourgeoisie doesn't have any more interest in developing the music than the white bourgeoisie.

00:25:07.440 - 00:25:17.640

Yeah, I'll buy that. What do you think of that? Johannes, the black bourgeoisie don't is represented by the club owners, don't have any more, seem to have any more interest in developing this

00:25:17.640 - 00:25:40.780

music than the white Bourgeois. No, that would be a true statement. It's it, you know, it's kind of a money thing, and I guess they may probably it's hard. It has always been difficult for to

00:25:40.780 - 00:25:58.780

find people. Jazz has been kind of like has always been a stepchild, you know? And it's very different the ray Bowman's, you know, you don't find them often. He's the only one we found to John Hardy and Ray Bowman will be the two people

00:25:58.780 - 00:26:18.660

I'd say that I have seen, the only two I'm saying, since we've been doing what we're doing, who took a genuine interest with no return in mind, you know, say that John would be interested in making some money,

00:26:18.660 - 00:26:32.780

but there was no little insight, yeah, the way John jumped into what we did. You know, there was no money in sight involved in that, because it so it would have to be thing that he did because he was

00:26:32.780 - 00:26:48.820

interested in music and he thought we were had something to say. You know, strictly done. It also seems to me that there's a contradiction here in the media of Los Angeles are culpable in that they've gone to

00:26:48.820 - 00:27:05.640

great lengths to publicize things like the Watts Writers Workshop. It's kind of liberal, liberal paternalism, but they haven't made any attempt to publicize the indigenous music, so that while people are the community at large is aware that

00:27:05.640 - 00:27:22.580

there's literary talent in Watts, there's no there's no awareness that Won't you sit down. There's no awareness that of the musical talent. They don't have to just tell them, yeah, I don't know why that is I,

00:27:24.140 - 00:27:45.340

I don't know of well in the kind of thing we're doing. Certainly now there are a couple of rock and roll groups, I guess that. But see here again, you have to think of the matter of the art,

00:27:45.460 - 00:27:57.400

fake thing, and the Matter and the Matter of making money. Well, the writer's workshop hasn't been a tremendously successful enterprise from a commercial point of view, right? Well, this is what you're saying, yeah, interesting that

00:27:57.400 - 00:28:10.020

people have taken an interest in them. It's basically kind of white noblesse oblige, or, you know, well, we're going to go into Watts and show that a situation's not completely hopeless, blah, blah, blah, which may or may not be a

00:28:10.020 - 00:28:22.220

valid premise. But the point is, if they did that for writers, why didn't they do it for musicians as well? I'm kind of curious. I don't know how many people are able to listen to jazz.

00:28:25.220 - 00:28:44.500

That's true. I guess like we play, let me say, because jazz people, different people, have many different things they think about what jazz is. So I don't know how many people are able to listen to the kind of thing we are doing, and come up with that

00:28:44.980 - 00:28:56.200

and decide whether this is good or this is not artful, or if it isn't, you know, that's right, any idiot can sit down and read a printed page and at least think that he understands what's happening.

00:28:56.200 - 00:29:06.780

But if soup, but with music, people have assumed to have a different frame reference, and they don't hear it, if at the first hearing, they don't hear something that they recognize or like never seems to get beyond the first hearing.

00:29:06.900 - 00:29:23.840

And you see, our kind of thing we do is the kind of thing that that pretty quick throws that kind of person off, because, you know, he doesn't hear the regular kind of thing. He can pat his foot to and shake his head, and we're in and out of

00:29:23.840 - 00:29:41.620

different kinds of things. And so it's likely that a person who would hear us might not have a good understanding of what to get in. He'd have to be involved. And really, I'm amazed now at Bobby Black and White, who do not know

00:29:41.620 - 00:29:56.260

what's going on up there when we're playing. I don't mean the form and what the technical thing technical. They don't know whether the saxophone has been here 800 years or 150 they don't know whether we make all the music is memorized or not. I'm

00:29:56.260 - 00:30:11.820

talking about a lot of these people. They don't know whether we play the same thing. Every time. Well, that's what we're trying to do. They have no thing with what's going on. A guy said to me in this class, like we were talking about the blues

00:30:11.820 - 00:30:30.560

form. And he said, Well, was there any indication were the blues around with the ancient Greeks kind of thing, you know, yeah, I said, Unless, you see, we can't narrow this down to the time somewhere between the time the boat landed and the latter

00:30:30.560 - 00:30:45.460

part of the, you know, the 19th century, there rose this little 12 bar thing. I said, it's not a vague term that applies to a lot of sorrowful music. It's a particular form that's been put together after, you know, that evolved so, you know, and so we

00:30:45.460 - 00:30:58.420

got into the thing. He says, Well, what? What's he doing? Like, what's happening? You know, I think perhaps they may would not sit there and listen and wait to hear a tune if they knew that we were intending what we attend. You know, are

00:30:58.420 - 00:31:14.100

tempting, you know, real WE ARE WE attempting to make them move? Are we attempting to entertain them on the basis of like response to what we anticipate their wishes? Are, you know, they may think that's what we intend to do, and they may think

00:31:14.100 - 00:31:24.920

we're trying to play better friends, but we just keep making all these clinkers. That's, you know, you wouldn't think that the great many people be that naive. But I have a feeling that when we play for an audience, just a general cross section

00:31:24.920 - 00:31:40.340

here, many of them, you know, who's listening that don't really know what is happening. You know, I'm surprised every time I talk to a group of people about what the jazz your jazz, and what it means. You know, what are they playing? You know,

00:31:40.340 - 00:31:49.300

like, is it valid? Or is it some little thing? You sit on a log and get a horn and, you know, toot around. I've heard people say that you don't have to have any talent to play jazz. You just grab a horn.

00:31:49.840 - 00:32:08.760

Well, yeah, it's only recently that people have come to feel that jazz is a true art form. Yeah, I mean, it's just waking up now, and they're only recently that people have come.

00:32:10.860 - 00:32:21.620

Just recently, you were saying people recognize that jazz is north, yeah, just a few are kind of leaning that way. Well, maybe this, maybe there's something to this, you know, and there hasn't

00:32:21.620 - 00:32:43.780

been, with exception of a few books, there has not been the in depth historical search into this, you know, to really see what you start to do. You start to read books on jazz, and you only come up with just a few, very few, right? And so there

00:32:43.780 - 00:33:03.240

Hans, there is no, there is no historical perspective, yeah, that people can dig into, you know, like, and come up with something that they can hang on to make some comparisons with, or something like this, I think. And a few years from now,

00:33:03.240 - 00:33:22.760

perhaps people will have a better idea of what jazz is all about. What is jazz and what isn't, what musicians are trying to convey to the audience, and a little deeper and you know, like I think it'll begin to approach the way people listen to

00:33:22.760 - 00:33:36.500

European questions, seriously, right? Yeah, even if, in some cases too seriously. You know, in Bobby, contrary to what a lot of people believe, you know, in the black community, there's a great deal

00:33:36.500 - 00:33:51.940

of Beatrice toward jazz are not what they would sing. I found that out. You know, you'd think that always been the black people male France may say, get your horn out in practice and stop playing all that rag stuff or

00:33:51.940 - 00:34:06.660

playing that jive and play some real music kind of thing, which meant that we can all, I know you can play that. That's like jumping off the front porch, right? That's all you know. When this grew out of a whole thing from way back at the turn

00:34:06.660 - 00:34:22.160

of the century and coming on up through the 20s, when jazz was looked upon negatively by the white community and the black community reflected, of course, we're trying to be like a white

00:34:23.420 - 00:34:33.380

kind of thing, absolutely, good, absolutely, you know. And so I remember reading something that I can't probably Ralph Nelson, because he was one of the first people to call attention to this. No, it was,

00:34:33.380 - 00:34:51.520

How's his name in New York, we were talking about, no German I was reading in his book, book, yeah, how?

00:34:52.060 - 00:35:11.320

Because, look how late he discovered that, right? You know, it's like everybody thinking, but he is one of the writers who has. Really gone back and done a fairly in depth kind of study about the thing you know,

00:35:13.900 - 00:35:33.140

Lew, I don't get a good thing in blues people, blue people, the analogy here, you know, between the music and the social, cultural thing here, you'd be surprised at how many black homes that Duke Ellington, he's a band leader. But the music

00:35:33.680 - 00:35:47.320

I've seen the time when Duke Ellington would come, I remember, in fact, one particular occasion, Duke Ellington came to Dallas, 1949, and played at a place that was used for the ice thing. Ordinarily. Now you figure, in a

00:35:47.320 - 00:36:01.680

city that size, the black community would turn out it was dance concert kind of thing. About 50 people showed up. Duke Weldon never come back here again. And it was almost 10 years before he did make Dallas, you know, like now the same

00:36:01.680 - 00:36:18.780

black community turned out for jazz at the Philharmonic, which was a music that had a leg over into the but they was what was listening. IT related itself, I think, perhaps, to what I call functional music among the right people you know, like music for

00:36:19.440 - 00:36:33.560

to dance, to dance, conducting business, yeah, like, I'm having a party. And there's certain records that go with a party. And it's Lionel Hampton, and it's the jazz, the Philharmonic kind of thing with that, if you became sophisticated and really

00:36:33.560 - 00:36:46.900

started to listen, you you know, would start to buy Duke Ellington and that kind of thing. But it was the, you know, rhythm and blues kind of thing, which black people still do not think of the rhythm and blues and the creativity that's in

00:36:46.900 - 00:37:02.820

that as related to the jazz kind of thing. It's just our our dance and have fun music, yeah, functional, yeah. And it's thought of, too, as a play thing, you know, like, it's like Weldon, in a sense. I guess perhaps it is. It was born out

00:37:02.820 - 00:37:14.820

of, like functional music. It was played for a purpose, rather than the entertaining, you know. And it reached a point, I suppose, where people would come and sit down just listen to it, for music's sake. But I think it's probably related to by the

00:37:14.880 - 00:37:29.780

greater number, still, as functional kind of music. That's why, you know, only a few, a small portion of the black community was supporting the Charles a Charlie Parker, you know. And more you know, we had a head count, you know, the per

00:37:29.780 - 00:37:42.680

capita thing, which shows more whites were listening to Charlie Parker than black. Of course, the more whites and blacks begin with, if we were figuring it.

00:37:42.680 - 00:38:04.860

Um, it seems like it's difficult to find the middle of the road between the white community, which, when it listens to serious music, is all too serious and doesn't react at all black community, only from a functional standpoint. I because

00:38:04.860 - 00:38:24.800

I've found in one whites who have no background in jazz trying to listen to jazz, they do try to over intensify, to say that they have to listen entirely cerebral alien person approaching Jazz at one stage in their listening career,

00:38:24.800 - 00:38:36.440

intellectually. And finally, the curse of them that it is fun kind of thing. I don't have to make myself bigger. It's yeah, it doesn't really think about it, man. It's happening. You know, I'd like

00:38:39.560 - 00:38:52.420

to get to the names of some of some of the other bands in this area that are, at the moment, unknown, but roughly equal potential. I think

00:38:54.100 - 00:39:15.960

Harrison Hans God's group is the only other group I know that has been together as long as our group has and worked hard at what they are doing and has stuck by their gun, so to speak, and played what They wanted to

00:39:15.960 - 00:39:33.980

play. There's there's another What is this? Stanley crouch has had a band from time to time, but that's really, that man is really Arthur's kind of more or

00:39:35.960 - 00:39:54.820

less. He's played saxophone with Tara capito, the alto player like Arthur glass has another little group, you know, that has two basses, the trumpet, alto and drum. There is another guy.

00:39:56.080 - 00:40:13.140

Hadley Kees, I don't think has a group. Hans. I'm not certain about that, but I don't think he does. He has played with he has played around town. I just think that they have a group that that has really gotten together, worked on a book, and tried to

00:40:13.260 - 00:40:27.080

form a definite style, you know, this kind of thing, like sort of thing we have right to do? Santa and Samal, yeah, I guess I'm just, I'm trying to think I've only heard

00:40:27.080 - 00:40:42.340

once I wasn't. I just want to know, trying to see if that was the person you were thinking. I can't. I can't the guy I'm thinking of. His last name is

00:40:42.340 - 00:41:00.900

Lee. I don't know if he chose his name or not, thinking of Walter Lou, no, because he's a trumpet player, but sure, it takes a long time. Well, first of all, you have to

00:41:00.900 - 00:41:19.620

go into a thing like this with the idea that we are going to do this kind of thing, and it cannot No money can be thought of at all. You know, you can't eat, and you have to go into it completely with the idea of trying to play

00:41:23.420 - 00:41:42.580

kind of music that you want to play. When I say that, I mean, like we wanted to get into a thing that was that will give us as much freedom as we could have to play whatever we wanted to play, as long as it made some kind of musical sense and, well,

00:41:42.580 - 00:42:00.900

you just don't start out with that kind of thing, figuring out making no money right quick. And we have, and Harrison, the same thing we've stuck by, and we've tried to polish. We've tried, you know, so it has come along and, and I have always thought

00:42:00.900 - 00:42:11.640

that if you if what you're doing has some merit, well, you know, it'll finally do something. Somebody will hear you, or you'll find better mouse. I'm way to go. World will be the path to your door.

00:42:17.520 - 00:42:41.000

That standpoint of what I wanted to get at that, is there anything else you'd like to put down on the team? Amen? Do.