00:00:06.420 - 00:00:26.060

Unknown: Hi, Grace. I asked you before, where you got the inspiration for is it gonna be called Ulysses? I don't know what it's gonna be called. Well, GI Joe, okay. GI Joe, right? You don't think I know who wrote that, but

00:00:28.040 - 00:00:44.800

I do that was written in the Constitution. What do you mean? So tell me about the background of that song. Tell you about it, yeah, you have to listen to music. I can't really talk about it, okay,

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Mallea, because I like the book. It's an advertisement for a book, like I write ads for a living. Great copy, great copy.

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I can ask you about the music. Well, I'll make my my observations. It sounds very jazz oriented. Oh, it is coming out of a jazz background that, not only that, but I just master some of these. Sorry.

00:01:31.640 - 00:01:46.720

No, it seems what I found talking to bands, and particularly bands, is that about half the guys playing or singing, or both of them have come out of generally true, no, it's just, I'm pretty old. Well,

00:01:47.620 - 00:01:59.560

it's not that many that comes out. Lot of blues. Young kids like blues, you know, as far as mixing it up with rock, younger groups are all you know blues groups.

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Spencer Dryden and his crew is still underground. What about in this band? In particular, different people? Yeah, all different kinds of stuff. Like some more folks, some more blue, some jazz and some crazy,

00:02:25.160 - 00:02:44.200

like a group consisting of Gil Evans and Woody Guthrie, Ella Fitzgerald, John Coltrane, most people aren't in our group. Identify you after you said something, so I'll say that otherwise,

00:02:49.240 - 00:03:09.960

you identify yourself. Yes, I'm Frank hofsky, intrepid boy, reporter, hello, we've missed previously. Marty down pilot for the ready for the first one. And that's

00:03:09.960 - 00:03:29.000

his brother, Richie. Hi al Richie. This is Gary, and that's Steve do cousin, no doubt, first time I was able to see the band playing, person was when

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you played Elysian Park, because I've been east for two years and you haven't. One of the things that impressed me was how far you went, how far you went towards letting any, letting any barrier establish

00:03:45.640 - 00:04:02.580

itself between yourselves and your following. For example, letting kids get up on stage encourage. Well, I saw, I gather that there's a premeditated reason behind them. I'd like somebody to tell me about it.

00:04:02.580 - 00:04:16.260

Nobody. It's very hard for us to have a stage presence, and that's actual just what we do, and just walk around and mumble and just, there's no act involved. Well, you can't just couldn't be

00:04:18.300 - 00:04:28.640

it'd be very hard. There's no act involved fall, because you're trying to remain genuine. No, because we can't do anything else between numbers. We we tune

00:04:28.640 - 00:04:43.120

our guitars. We're not we don't tell jokes between numbers unless something so funny happens to hit us between numbers. No. Besides flash, you let flash. You have the you know. You have people up on stage with you. You don't object

00:04:43.120 - 00:04:54.100

to that. You let them wander on. So sometimes we even turn our backs over on the audience, all of us. I mean, we just get a little tiny circle. And we even forget, you know, that we're on stage, and we just start bopping

00:04:54.100 - 00:05:08.760

around to ourselves, which is kind of funny, because we'll look up and realize Boffer. Yes, it is anything that's thought out ahead of time. For example, letting you know, encouraging people get up on the

00:05:08.760 - 00:05:17.880

stage with you. Well, it started out pretty, you know, casually, like we're all sort of playing for our friends, right? So that is a natural thing that people like coming on, you know, and asking you.

00:05:20.220 - 00:05:33.680

I mean, one time, couple times, there's too many people on there have been people who've gone on stage and played with us that we haven't liked. I mean, there have been people that was kicked off the stage. I mean, there's, I mean, there's been

00:05:33.680 - 00:05:47.920

people that have, like, run up on the stage, kicking him off like, 20 times during once. But evidently, anybody's presuming no one's but evidently, it's still worth it enough to you to have those

00:05:47.920 - 00:06:02.740

other people on so that the bad cases don't make you clamp. Not really. We just like to, you know, they can only have so many people in the theaters. So we like getting, you know, our friends in and usually in our seats. How did the name come

00:06:02.740 - 00:06:18.720

about? Come about. Ralph Leeson has told me also that you turned down bookings, you know, because you felt like, for example, playing free concerts, okay,

00:06:20.460 - 00:06:34.400

because you felt like playing a free concert at the same time with paying jobs. Is that true? Sometimes it's just we go and do a gig for money and we do a bad gig, like come back and make it happen.

00:06:34.400 - 00:06:48.520

Do you like to play? We do a good gig, we never come back. Make the money. Do you like to play in the park more than playing in wood or as much as they both lamb

00:06:49.960 - 00:07:05.280

what are different things? What are the merits of playing American city in the sunshine? It's like being in a picnic or something. All these people are sitting around, sun shining, people are just grooving, and there's grass

00:07:05.280 - 00:07:25.940

around and incense and flags and blue so It's a more free atmosphere, and kids naked body cut, does it affect how the band plays? Oh yeah,

00:07:27.920 - 00:07:44.980

oh yeah. We always play horrible. But no, it's really good. It never comes across like we think it does in the first few rows. I think we have great imagination. Do you find yourself playing longer? Play longer, one two and

00:07:44.980 - 00:08:14.040

say, say a five minute tune. Never notice your job. What do you think about becoming rock and roll star prospecting. Look forward to your records have all been selling well and

00:08:15.000 - 00:08:27.560

art, as they say, because we have that natural thing, we're too repellent. Think we enjoy it too much. Actually, we don't get mobs, and we show people

00:08:27.560 - 00:08:35.480

that we do. You know, when people come on stage, they don't come on stage to tear us apart. They come on stage to dance with us. I mean, people come up and just talk, you know, like we're a

00:08:35.480 - 00:08:50.140

friend. Some groups you do that too. And usually those groups you do that you aren't really untouchable stars. Doesn't that mean that there's a prior choice on your part not to become the star, don't you think with a certain kind of

00:08:50.140 - 00:09:00.040

promotion? Yeah, no, we're too ugly. Yeah, I think, I think we're past that teeny buffer promotion, you know?

00:09:00.040 - 00:09:06.480

So you don't want to be that's what I'm trying to get. Trying to get at. You don't want to be rock and roll. That's how you grapple. Oh, I love to be a rock

00:09:06.480 - 00:09:24.800

and roll star. Make a lot of money. I think we'd all love to be a rock and roll star, but we don't want to be a rock and roll star. And rock and roll stars aren't that happy about it? Exactly, that's what. That's why I asked that question beginning,

00:09:24.800 - 00:09:34.580

so, how do you then go about avoiding you could become a machinist. They hardly ever were a dental assistant, but in this music, you'd

00:09:34.580 - 00:09:49.720

hear a drill all day. How do you do it? By learning something about music, possibly, and, you know, making the best music you can. That's one way to avoid it. Make The Best Music You can usually, you know, you don't have a very

00:09:49.720 - 00:10:03.420

big market for it. Speaking, in light of recent experience a West there's another thing of pressure, I mean, to the pressure when you get into. Yeah, into doing, you

00:10:03.420 - 00:10:18.480

know, the music thing, when you're really doing it, you have this all of a sudden pressure on you of doing it well, because you're doing it all the time. And so you really started, I think, learning twice as fast and growing fast, because you

00:10:18.480 - 00:10:31.340

have a pressure what doesn't becoming famous and kind of a celebrity, even if only a semi celebrity, tend to distract you from the music, and if so, how do you cope with that? As far as time goes, it

00:10:31.340 - 00:10:46.060

does. That's what I meant. Oh, well, I asked somehow or there, I got into that when I talked to Jerry Garcia, and he and, so Bob especially was kind of bitter, because he said he couldn't go

00:10:46.060 - 00:11:03.720

out in the Hans Werner Henze was impossible. People would come up and tear off his clothes. Tara, his headband, or his feathers. Yeah, he baby was making, he was putting me on, or else they Tara, so many, not all the people in the Hans Ashbery. I

00:11:03.780 - 00:11:15.900

mean you walk down the street, deluge by 40,000 people walking over it may take his money. Do people bother you now that Mort them,

00:11:18.480 - 00:11:35.000

not me, but I today, how do you, how does, how does a man book? The man book through a booking agency. Agency gets jobs and tells us what jobs are available, and we

00:11:35.000 - 00:11:49.240

put them into work and tell them, Go back and get the contract. You stipulate that in your contract with the UC the which stands for appalling

00:11:51.820 - 00:12:17.340

performing arts, what the agency is having relatively new agency doors Kees Matthew, how are decisions made in the band? For example, suppose somebody says, let's play

00:12:17.340 - 00:12:30.680

this. Everybody says, No, right away, and then you have about two hours of discussion alone, then everybody does what they want to. What finally happened? Everybody does what they want to. What if

00:12:30.680 - 00:12:40.220

there's a conflict? What if some three people say, let's play this game, and three people say, for example, I don't want to what point if it's three? Three big, we go lamb. Majority

00:12:42.620 - 00:12:55.180

include included. Manager, get a vote in this. Consultant, what's going on there?

00:12:56.560 - 00:13:12.000

I'm doing my thing off road. Manager. He had a good red beard. Thank you. Unfortunately, I don't seem to have a good list of questions

00:13:12.000 - 00:13:27.740

tonight, though. Do I talk about anything you want? Davies, not recently, because I haven't been able to buy any problem. Do want to go back to that jazz thing again, see if I can get a more coherent

00:13:27.740 - 00:13:41.260

response the second time around, seems to when I talk to San Francisco band, for example, I talked to Jerry. You the answers, no,

00:13:43.600 - 00:14:06.540

totally dead pan. Put on. Jerry was interested in jazz. Put a messenger service. Had a couple of guys. Dave gets with Big Brother, like that in the loading zone, that's for a clear light in LA which you probably haven't had a

00:14:06.540 - 00:14:22.700

chance to hear, but I've been campaigning player who definitely is right out of jazz and very good organ player. That's what prompted me to ask you. So I even though yorma and the other guys aren't here now,

00:14:22.700 - 00:14:33.980

you know, maybe you could tell me something about their background and how it relates to jazz, or relates to Jazz at all, and how that's shaped. Aroma used to be in a marine dance, you know, when he was in

00:14:33.980 - 00:14:48.340

the service, yes, and he used to play a church. He played a horn, and then he went to drums and developed Tara from that just for you to go. So that's completely wrong. There we call

00:14:49.600 - 00:15:10.980

yeah Jack has every record ever made. Nobody considers Paul as a musician and iron on that because part of our group,

00:15:14.880 - 00:15:22.940

I mean, you ran a forklift, or somebody gave him a B side, B side. What do you mean? He just had one of the best songs we forgot.

00:15:23.540 - 00:15:38.180

That's what I mean. Wasn't that, wasn't that the B that was he didn't, didn't seem to get played very much here. That shows the taste of these towns. Did it do better in San Francisco? We're talking about

00:15:38.180 - 00:15:52.120

you and me and Putin All right? Yeah. Did better every place in the United States, they wouldn't play too long, and they had this time.

00:16:00.040 - 00:16:06.540

Radio station, people's minds have a dream. So then, if it's not jazz, where did you people come from?

00:16:06.540 - 00:16:18.060

Came from jazz? It came from everywhere. I don't really know that much about jazz, no, but you let you you've heard you don't know that much about music. You know you've heard all this other

00:16:18.060 - 00:16:26.000

stuff, and that's how you use it. You don't know what you're using all in back of your head. And all of a sudden, something comes off. What's the average age of the band? 40?

00:16:26.300 - 00:16:41.140

Okay? No, it's 26 right? Five years ago, seven years ago, you wouldn't have found people in their mid 20s involved in rock and roll, right? San Francisco, the bands are generally older, and they are

00:16:41.140 - 00:16:52.180

anywhere in the world, Rock Band. What I'm interested in is, what moved all of these people into rock and roll, out of what you were doing? What made it first? What made it? What made it seem possible for you to do something

00:16:52.300 - 00:17:03.960

because it's quite loud, free lamb, loud money at it. You know, make more money than what? Then the not why he does because he's a crazy artist.

00:17:04.800 - 00:17:24.260

No, I feel the new direction that's I said it's free. It's more fun than anything I've ever done. Freedom. At what point does it become? Money? No, no, I'm saying, fuck the idea.

00:17:28.160 - 00:17:40.540

Did you were you thinking in terms of rock five years ago, say, or seven years ago? What? So what changed your mind? Answer that question. What question in the Yeah, the kind of way, if you

00:17:40.540 - 00:17:51.220

regard this poor young Moffat headed Lamb, the reason I asked, I mean, I know that has to be documented someplace, and I don't see anybody doing

00:17:56.200 - 00:18:09.540

except maybe now We should include and we love you. I'm not like major influence on one, if you had to pick one, well, you don't have to pick but if you have to pick the major

00:18:09.540 - 00:18:38.000

influences, I'm sure, okay. You know, opening for Linley opened it up. Yeah, they opened it up with a knife. Is this music becoming more improvised?

00:18:40.280 - 00:19:00.720

True? In general? San Francisco band true in general, of non teeny buffer bands, bucking Hans, that they're single.

00:19:03.120 - 00:19:15.060

I don't remember so well. There's a difference between, say, Herman's Hermits. Well, see, I don't go by teeny Bob or Dan or not. It's good music. You know, I've heard teeny ball for music that

00:19:15.120 - 00:19:25.040

sometimes is a gas well, what I mean? And it's teeny ball, but it's, it's groovy because it's in Teenie boff. It's really good. The bucking Hans was picked

00:19:26.300 - 00:19:41.560

out because reaction like crying. It was so much he went like that, started laughing. This poor guy, I saw a scene one time, and his cripple like that was on the

00:19:41.560 - 00:19:59.560

street selling pencils, and his crippled child came up with Cruz and her legs embraces and bought some kind of bought a pencil, and his cat really had a look on his face. You know me, baby, high blood, soul brother.

00:20:05.460 - 00:20:25.280

Good David, can you fix me up a vocal mug? Is there any particular group that you regard as your following? As your what following?

00:20:26.420 - 00:20:44.380

To me, like certain group in the population, I wish I could walking out. No walking out. What about, what about the hate your hate

00:20:45.940 - 00:20:52.240

community see yourself in a special relationship. There's a relationship. Is that an audience you prefer to play for? Or

00:20:54.100 - 00:21:07.020

do you have any preference about people on hate Street and go to those sort of places in the United States? Those places anymore. They just hang out around on streets, as I'm saying, people

00:21:07.320 - 00:21:27.140

that used to be there. I read that when you played basically when you had a public law, you long. I'm not interested in what happened in Bakersfield, unless you think it's relevant. But I am

00:21:27.140 - 00:21:40.300

interested in more UCSC much emphasis on having your audience dance movement more than dancing, it's just when people are able to move around, they feel better like if you are put in a if you

00:21:40.300 - 00:21:54.820

decide you're gonna sit like this, that's all right. But you know, if there's a possibility of moving around, it's better. Some people just freedom dance is just get up and do your thing. You want to respond,

00:21:55.900 - 00:22:08.820

No, we just want people to be able to do as they please. You can't hear music. You can't do anything right unless you're totally relaxed, and you know completely in that thing that you are in when you're at your desk, and some

00:22:08.820 - 00:22:22.400

people are not at their desk sitting down for too long, kids mostly like to move around. So why shouldn't when I asked, I asked Johannes if he preferred a responsive audience to an

00:22:22.400 - 00:22:31.160

audience that didn't show his feelings one way or another. And he said that if the audience was good, and it was working in number four with the group, that it became like an additional member of

00:22:32.480 - 00:22:47.560

the group, it does play good, and the audience digs it play better, and they respond better and feedback more they respond, the more you can become turned on, the more you turn them on. It's

00:22:47.620 - 00:23:00.160

not necessarily a matter of loudness either. I mean, it's not this kind of response you can, you know, they do that also, but you can tell when an audience is doing a thing, or whether you are and whether it's working. Sometimes there's a

00:23:00.160 - 00:23:15.540

tremendous wall up in front gets to be a dragon as it gets worse, right away, when you put people in rows, chairs and sections and regimenting those people, sometimes we look out in an audience when they have lights and see and it looks like, you

00:23:16.860 - 00:23:26.900

know, a cafeteria in an army barracks. They're waiting for the dinner to be passed. I noticed that, especially in jazz concerts and the people in the audience, like in the village Theater in New York,

00:23:26.900 - 00:23:40.900

they become very innovative and don't respond. Then it becomes kind of like playing for classroom, yeah, precisely a bunch of corpses or something. I people,

00:23:47.740 - 00:24:08.880

I've more or less exhausted my list of the questions I usually ask. What do you think are the most important topics? Anything can be important. Well, anything Canada, drive, beer, can,

00:24:12.840 - 00:24:22.460

everything is anything stuff into your head gets rearranged and comes out sooner. I mean, if you go through life and just picking out certain things that are important, that you think are important, and

00:24:22.460 - 00:24:32.660

you're really missing a lot of things, but if you can get hung up in a cup, an empty cup, you might grow well spoken, young man, put

00:24:35.780 - 00:24:56.920

another rock under your thumb. Can I ask you, how you if you remember how certain songs come to you, for example, how coming back to me. Thank you. I had a melody and I.

00:25:00.000 - 00:25:18.300

On, and I kept playing it to myself and kept playing it over and over and over and over and over until the sound gave me an image of what the music is all about. Usually works, or is there any kind of usual way? That's the

00:25:18.300 - 00:25:33.200

way I work. Everybody works, people. I mean, everybody works. I play the music most of the time, or unless I write with Paul. If I write with Paul, then I do a lyric, and I might little music

00:25:33.200 - 00:25:47.560

here now, but mostly his music goes with my words. And I work from the whole different point of view. You know, I have to take in his mind. And how about the way you proceed

00:25:49.060 - 00:26:03.000

from any all different directions, very little discipline. So there's no standard way. It isn't necessarily the musical idea comes before a thematic idea can be anyway, when I

00:26:03.000 - 00:26:12.600

talked to Marty in Levis and park, he said you were considering a song on Monday, Bruce, I was wedding, considering a sign, not considering that one several

00:26:12.840 - 00:26:23.540

years ago. What happened to it? Where is it now? How? Where's the song go? I don't know. You know it's there. Are you going to do it? Or do you have plans for

00:26:27.560 - 00:26:41.320

it has to be changed. Man, the right person. I wrote it when he was alive. It's like, you know, John Kennedy, flags and stones and stuff.

00:26:45.940 - 00:27:01.420

Spencer, yeah, who's your favorite drummer? Or drummer? Drummers? Yes, drummers, probably Elvin and Roy. Hans, yeah, I could go through a list. I just wanted to check out

00:27:01.420 - 00:27:15.420

my hearing and see if I was hearing the same thing from your mouth. That's just, that's just Elvin Jones. I heard somebody mentioned Frank Zappa. What is

00:27:17.880 - 00:27:35.960

their collective opinion? No, not collective. Is there a there? Like yeah, that's true. What he's musical genius. He's my favorite butcher.

00:27:39.800 - 00:28:02.640

He told me that you asked him at one point to produce your third album. Well, we had no producer at that time, Welch. We asked someone else turned down.

00:28:12.240 - 00:28:37.040

I wanted up for rodeo. Well, I've successfully been baffled. Sure What are you from? What magazine or radio station, Jan? I'm from Jan. From magazine. I'm really from me

00:28:37.040 - 00:28:52.300

here is that, unless these interviews can be printed on expurgated. Oh yeah, that's the best part of it.

00:28:54.040 - 00:29:02.020

Well, that's the whole point. They fucked a good word tomorrow. I didn't say that shit. 1910 we got that. Nobody's arguing.

00:29:02.800 - 00:29:24.140

Well, that where I'm really from is that's where he's really from, here or New York, or both. No, I was, I was living here, and I went to University

00:29:24.140 - 00:29:34.460

of Pitt to do my doctorate yesterday, when I was stuck in Pittsburgh two years, when I got to New York occasionally, but I've moved back here. I see so you're like doing all your writing, yeah,

00:29:37.100 - 00:29:54.880

and you like it better here. A never has seen snow. Well, I've seen snow now, and it's a drag. Yeah, I had to get out of the subway on New Year's Eve to go

00:29:54.880 - 00:30:09.600

someplace and walk six blocks. Stuff was coming down so hard, I really had. Serious that's I was gonna make it so and I don't think the New York I could have had, I could have had a teaching job in

00:30:09.600 - 00:30:31.430

New York. Just didn't want to say in New York everything I bore about American society, you're parts of La are too but possible, by the way, we think we should

00:30:33.710 - 00:30:49.900

rename all the cities in the United States, new name, New York doesn't say New York says Los Angeles doesn't say this plastic.

00:30:52.360 - 00:31:09.420

You know, you really need a real word from now you know something. Better, so I won't do anything you don't want me to do with it.

00:31:11.880 - 00:31:45.340

Obviously, do whatever you like. I hope so. Okay, oh, okay, Marty. Have a specific reason for asking about jazz. For instance, yeah,

00:31:45.460 - 00:31:56.560

do you hear something in our music that goes that way, like either in person, on record, or what? Well, first of all, I've talked to, I guess I must have talked about 20 groups out on the coast, and heard at least that many.

00:31:58.300 - 00:32:11.640

And that goes, you know, everyone from Clapton to the clear light. And what I find more and more is guys, especially guys who are playing lead guitars and organs and drummers all have spent some time. So that's that's the

00:32:11.640 - 00:32:23.180

generalization. And specifically what we were listening to in there, in the mastering Ulysses or whatever, definitely has an Elvin Jones, Coltrane six, a six again, feeling okay.

00:32:23.180 - 00:32:40.480

Well, this has been coming. I don't know. Man, I, I played jazz for about 10 years. I worked, you know, just like a whole bunch of gigs with people like Charles Lloyd and Ruby Lewis, Paul Blake, Don Cherry, all these people when they were

00:32:40.480 - 00:32:55.900

out here on the coast, right. And jazz was not really a paying profession. I had to supplement. And it also got to a point something happened in jazz about five or six years ago. It really started to get cold. A lot of it was turning me off instead of

00:32:55.900 - 00:33:09.180

on, and I was missing something. A lot of people were getting very sewn up into their own bag. And I really couldn't hack it. I was very disappointed by a lot of the good groups that I'd like in the past years. And I started listening to rock and roll, and

00:33:09.180 - 00:33:24.860

I felt an enthusiasm that jazz was lacking at the time. And I said, Well, this is where it's at. And I saw certain Kees, you know, we're getting away from what I standardized as rock and roll. And put my thumb down on, you know, while I was playing

00:33:24.860 - 00:33:36.680

jazz, I said, well, that's just a bunch of tries. You know, three chords over and over is nothing. So all this hope. And then I started hearing something new coming out. I didn't like the Beatrice at first. After I listened, it started to sink in.

00:33:36.680 - 00:33:50.620

And I just heard that there were people that were thinking in this pope, as well as in the jazz vein. And it seemed that things were going to happen. I saw the mfq and I saw the mothers at the trip two years ago, both of them were doing

00:33:50.620 - 00:34:06.120

extended improvisational things, just like Coltrane was doing. They were bringing in the Indian influence, which maybe Coltrane had introduced to America public wise, you know, about four years before that, Ravi Shankar has been, had been in this country

00:34:06.120 - 00:34:17.100

five years before that, but it didn't catch, I'll be sure, because I remember hearing right in the late 50s, right? And it was very much an esoteric, Oh, yeah. And listen, man, I dug him. Then I was, I'm sure

00:34:17.640 - 00:34:30.200

anybody even hear blues can hear Ravi Shankar, because he's saying anyway. So this evolution was happening and I was hearing it. I said, Yeah, I want to get in on that too, because somebody must be able to upgrade the music. Kees, why do you have to

00:34:30.200 - 00:34:44.080

sell shit to people? Why do you twist just brainwash kids minds, you can really give them something good. Anyway, the gist of it is, I worked through rock and roll a little bit. The airplane found me, and I found the airplane. I liked what I

00:34:44.080 - 00:34:56.680

heard, and I thought that it had a lot of potential for just doing more than being a rock and roll band, which it certainly is. It probably covers the scope of as many different kinds of music as you can name, and you can't put one label on the whole

00:34:56.680 - 00:35:10.620

thing. That's what I like about it, is the variation. A good thing about the one of the things about the airplane is that every guy you know is allowed to do his own thing. So doing,

00:35:12.000 - 00:35:27.980

each guy grows in his own thing. Each guy becomes more and more closed minded other things you know, and yet we have to allow that that happens to each other group. And so, you know, we have a lot of fighting in that,

00:35:30.140 - 00:35:42.400

but we get things done where everybody was actually doing, you know, everything your way. You wouldn't have the same thing. You probably wouldn't even realize, well, you'd have a nice, tight, snippy rock. Well, no, you have a nice, tight thing

00:35:42.400 - 00:35:56.920

in whatever your mind is, right? Because you control but this way you have a much more organic rock and roll band. He does a lot of who doesn't have a lot, much more attention, lots, much more friction. You know, in creation,

00:35:57.040 - 00:36:09.480

it isn't smooth, but the end result is more stimulating, exciting, and it's hard for us to be objective. I guess because Welch, I really heard the band out in front I have because I

00:36:09.480 - 00:36:21.380

heard him before I joined. That band is totally different from what we have now. So I really haven't heard this end result. And if you listen to our records, at least in the past, I don't think that's a true representation about in person.

00:36:21.440 - 00:36:33.860

It's a totally different thing. I don't think that you can compare this. Why do you say that I thought your records prepared me rather well for the person, much more so than saying the dance records, which I thought weren't

00:36:33.860 - 00:36:48.820

represented all of what that means? Oh, right, I don't know. It's just the thing. I just feel that there is a presence in person. You know, you have six you know, I think you can do good things

00:36:48.820 - 00:36:58.420

with records, though, I really do, but I think it's another way. You know, the thing about doing records, though, is that when you start doing records, no matter how much you've made records before,

00:36:58.420 - 00:37:09.060

when you're into this thing, it's a new thing. So you approach it moving right. Approach it. Making records is the thing where you go in there first trying to do your music,

00:37:10.380 - 00:37:23.660

and it takes time when, until you finally accept the point and the true fact that you cannot do the same thing on stage that you do in the studio. There are two different things, once you accept that fact, and the group begins to grill on records. And

00:37:23.660 - 00:37:37.100

that's where we are now. We're just accepting so in other words, in your second album, you did aim together kind of the same kind of presentation. Well, we tried to get the same presence we well, we, let's

00:37:37.160 - 00:37:46.540

put it this way. We wanted to, but it came out sort of it came up pretty clean. It came out like a pretty slow job, right? We thought we were doing the same, right,

00:37:46.540 - 00:38:00.960

but she wouldn't let my taste down that way. Are we okay? You expected you're gonna have right? Every person says, Sure. Person says,

00:38:02.940 - 00:38:18.060

because your aspirations are always so great and right, never how good you are, you can never, that was the thing you ever talked to Colt about bringing in? You ever talked to Coltrane about his record? He said, Yeah, well, I wasn't that was okay for

00:38:18.060 - 00:38:29.600

a couple of weeks, right? I think everybody feels that way. Nobody wants to do something. I think it's different every time they play it anyway, because there are those magic moments

00:38:30.500 - 00:38:39.680

when all of a sudden something's happening and, you know, there's no name for it, it's just happening right there. And other nights when it just doesn't get off the ground. Jazz used to be called swinging.

00:38:39.860 - 00:38:56.740

That's what everybody got together, right? You could feel a definite kind of a qualitative change, you know? Yeah, I think so there is, yeah, there's guys that will come rehearse and know that thing, and it'll sound

00:38:56.740 - 00:39:07.440

great, but then there are those guys who go to the festivals, are invited, and the respected, and there's a mine thing happening, and those festivals and those same compositions will come up much more.

00:39:11.400 - 00:39:21.680

Well, it looks like the reward, the risks you take, are greater, you know, by having six individuals in the band. But also looks like the rewards are commencement greater when it works, right?

00:39:21.680 - 00:39:32.720

Well, that's it's basically a big gamble. Yeah, we found that the gamble pays off, and for some reason, people like it. I can't tell you why they like it, because, you know, it's an old story. We come off the stage played a horrible set, and Kees

00:39:32.720 - 00:39:46.660

say, Yeah, beautiful. Even friends say, Gee, that was nice. What can you say? You know, okay, and they're nice when you think it's fantastic. And people say, No, it didn't do it. I think all music was having the same thing,

00:39:46.660 - 00:39:56.020

because I always went through the same thing in jazz. But there are those, the music legitimates you and the audience. That was what we were talking about before, by getting the

00:39:56.020 - 00:40:11.640

audience in as a member of the band, almost respond, try. To make it like a snowball, because I think we felt that most in San Francisco, especially the Fourth of July thing was fantastic. And a couple of times at the film

00:40:11.640 - 00:40:25.820

where you just feel this thing, oh, man, I was flashing all over the place. It was really weird. And it was cold, and we were very sloppy that day. We had just come back from a road trip, but there was something happening that was very

00:40:25.820 - 00:40:40.940

interesting, and I wasn't ashamed to walk off the stage, even though we did not play tight, clean, Clippy. That's wherever where music reading has been at in at least any kind of music involved improvisation. That's one

00:40:41.060 - 00:40:53.740

of those days where we literally came so where we literally came, well, I think you're up there to tell the truth, man, like, if you're put in that position, you know of being up there where

00:40:53.740 - 00:41:06.300

people want to hear what you have to say, they put you in a place in their head, right? And whatever comes off, men be a good being bad. If they really understand, they'll understand that. This is what he's saying today. This is where he's at

00:41:06.300 - 00:41:17.340

today, and then another day, maybe someplace better, another place he made the same Gee, it's a drag you're getting a day in the life. Yeah, right. Every every album should have along with the album title the

00:41:17.880 - 00:41:45.940

day it was recorded. I complete biography of going to write a book. So yeah, this is an obvious question. But I have to ask obvious questions, because even though the answers may be obvious to you, and you

00:41:45.940 - 00:41:58.240

maybe even, in some cases, me there, I think they're probably people like, haven't thought about these things. So obvious question number, whatever it is, then you don't feel that there's any less opportunity as a drummer to be creative and rock,

00:41:58.240 - 00:42:09.420

or whatever this means, than there was there is, let's say it depends what the drummer's position is. It also depends what you're talking about. Recording stage. I can get creative on stage. However, I

00:42:09.420 - 00:42:22.100

cannot be heard. Yeah. So I can do like, you know, beautiful little things not true. Well, no, that's it is true. Because let's not get into an argument about this. No, what I'm saying is that the guitars and all that, really, until they get

00:42:22.100 - 00:42:37.040

electric drums, you'll never hear the shit that I do, because I cannot pull off this idea loud. You don't my Hans attested to that. You need finger touch control and you need absolute silence while it's happening. You can say, Jesus, dig that

00:42:37.280 - 00:42:50.500

otherwise. But I get my singing. I get my things off anyway, just by playing. So I feel like the tune and I'm making it on a record, I can do a little bit more. However, there's still a problem, because our band creates a very large sound.

00:42:50.560 - 00:43:03.240

Yeah, you cannot pin down what's being played. In other words, you don't separate the rhythm guitar from the lead from the bass. It's all one big, swooping mass, and things cut in and out, and that's what basically makes the sound, at least I hear on

00:43:03.240 - 00:43:15.840

these things we're doing now, you have a thing in live music, which you don't you very rarely have on a record, and that's the feeling of breathing. You just being the tune

00:43:16.380 - 00:43:30.140

in a record. You don't feel the chest of that song. Have you ever any of the stuff written by John Sinclair about some of the new jazz? Geez, talked about it exactly the same way. Really fascinating. Yeah, the music breed

00:43:30.860 - 00:43:41.800

here, it does. Music is a limited thing. In other words, you are what you play. When I play something, when anybody plays, you are becoming you take six people that are doing something similar, and they become the tune. That's what's

00:43:41.800 - 00:43:49.720

groovy. Is there any hope? Is there any hope that you could capture at least a part of that by doing an album Live? We've tried some of that. However,

00:43:49.720 - 00:43:59.860

then, sound wise, you don't they haven't yet developed. Personally, that's technical, recording technique. You know, there the recording technique is at fault. I'm sure

00:44:01.960 - 00:44:14.640

eventually it could be pulled off, but very hard with this band, because we keep we keep moving from where we were yesterday. Yeah, and the guys are changing amplifiers, pulls at this big robot in there that we don't know what it's going to

00:44:14.640 - 00:44:23.300

do on the first job. And you know he's gonna just the sound of the band is gonna be different next time we play him first. So it's really schizophrenia, isn't it? I'm schizophrenia,

00:44:23.420 - 00:44:35.120

isn't it? I mean, like you're one, it's a big recording studio, and you're another group, right? And it's also because not only what we are, but what we come in

00:44:35.120 - 00:44:41.440

contact, well, he won't hear you come in contact with cold antiseptic. You really don't work. You know, just has six people, no matter

00:44:41.440 - 00:44:50.260

how much you think you're creating totally on your own, I am affected now. It's just by meeting you and talking to you tonight. Yeah, I know, because there's a change in your attitude. Time

00:44:50.260 - 00:45:01.980

this thing began to right now, see in my whole head, maybe change now, which will reflect in whatever I do. Another thing about this band we pushed from. Lot of things that maybe other people.

00:45:02.160 - 00:45:15.240

I've noticed that today, rock and roll artists or pop music artists are able to get a little bit more, for instance, than the jazz artist was even today or a few years back, mainly because this is commercial. As far as companies go, this sells, so

00:45:15.240 - 00:45:26.180

they're willing to make concessions. I've always wondered why the jazz musicians don't get up united front and say, Man, I want to do my thing this what I want to do. I want the art to be this way. I want these tracks released, and I

00:45:26.180 - 00:45:39.980

want these guys on the date, and a lot of them don't get it. And I think that any artist that has a chance to put his thing in front of the public should have the right to choose exactly how it's presented. I think guys should take more of an interest,

00:45:40.220 - 00:45:52.300

and that's the difference, I think, between the jazz generation and the rock Yeah, that's wild. The Jazz generation has laid back. They really have, man, they've said, Well, this is cool. I'm getting two bills. Maybe I get a studio game.

00:45:52.300 - 00:46:04.320

That's exactly how they've given up. That is exactly the rock generation, right? And the rock generation will not do that. They're going to say something about it, and they realize that they got something. I still think there can be a meeting. I

00:46:04.320 - 00:46:15.360

read something by Shelley man where he gave, oh, yeah, should give up, because I don't even consider he's Shelley. He's a studio musician, right? You know, he's not

00:46:16.200 - 00:46:25.100

what I consider the true. But then you're down on a thing of artistic merit, you know, that's right. Are the artists who still in jazz or still maintain and still create so our group.

00:46:25.100 - 00:46:38.840

But it used to be that the jazz man was a symbol of rebellion. I'm a right infinite number since 1957 when I went to San Francisco. You know about the jazz man, miles Davies and Charles and those cats are still around, and they are but I did a

00:46:38.840 - 00:46:51.820

column because I was knocked out by it. Frank Santa walks on stage in the Garrick theater, and, you know, gives the audience a finger. He says, Okay, go suck off. And then he walked down three doors to the east into Village Vanguard, I

00:46:51.820 - 00:47:06.840

guess, village gate, and see what happened. I don't want to name the group I saw, but it was, you know, modern group. It was a total more. It was almost like an Uncle Tom show, because everybody got up with their very stylish double breasted jackets

00:47:06.840 - 00:47:21.740

with the, you know, the nice little stripe and the ties. Was also hip five years ago. And it's also dated now. It's like dated in that five year period of dated maybe 50 or 60 years. So it looks like turn of the century, almost. And it was, it

00:47:21.740 - 00:47:29.600

was, it was like a machine product. They're still hung up in that thing going even when they tried to play what they call outside, you know, outside of the chord changes and improvisers, you can't

00:47:29.600 - 00:47:38.480

take jazz musicians out of the realm of just being people, Hey, man, but you can give them a boost in there are some jazz musicians who are just no no will get hung up in their bag. The

00:47:38.480 - 00:47:48.700

overall majority of them are not moving with the time of today, and a lot of them are putting down Rockwell, and they're not listening. Others are making it in. But I really think that that's true. Factions should open their heads, yeah, but

00:47:48.700 - 00:48:02.160

don't you understand that jazz music and rock musicians could get together and form a bigger front? Well, yeah, people are like people. They're still just people, yeah, but I don't

00:48:02.160 - 00:48:15.720

see why. When the Janis musician had that bohemian attitude about it, right? That's why did he lose it? Why did so many because they were young man, they got married, they sold out. Otherwise, they let their musicians Wives Club and they

00:48:15.720 - 00:48:32.720

put on Halloween dances. Well, that's where they're ending up. What's Charles Lloyd. You know, Charles Lloyd is contemporary with you guys, contemporary with me, because and what he plays, given his given his talent, is infinitely less daring than what

00:48:32.720 - 00:48:44.380

you are. Mallea, I mean now your Ma's a guy who goes outside in the way that James used to talk about it. He says, fuck the chords, fuck the scale, man, I'm just going to blow the sound that I want to get. Now, why can't Charles Lloyd do that?

00:48:44.620 - 00:48:54.820

When he does, you have to hear him. I see Charles Lloyd turn on. Charles is a fantastic He's much better musician. Charles can do anything he wants. Man, I played with him when

00:48:55.060 - 00:49:07.980

he's playing like this, piano catches. Well, that's it. He can't do anything. Therefore it is, you know, it is all the worst that he doesn't do. He's just a little bit more comprehensive. I will say, maybe that isn't a good example, but

00:49:07.980 - 00:49:20.720

there are a lot of young cats around in jazz who are Johannes. Johannes. And I said, Well, Joe, what about the conditions you work in? And I mean, like Joe Henderson's getting maybe $200 a week. And, you know, he he has his pad across Brooklyn Bridge,

00:49:20.720 - 00:49:34.700

and it's kind of, you know, shoddy looking, and he works, like, two nights a week at the slug saloon or the five spot, when the five slides to have jazz. And occasionally he'll get a call do the tenor saxophone on Freddie Hubbard's album. And

00:49:34.700 - 00:49:44.560

said, What do you think about the working conditions for jazz man? Like, what do you think about exploitation? What do you think about the role of the businessman and jazz you know, how do you feel about his control of the end product? What

00:49:44.620 - 00:49:54.100

do you think about the relationship, relationship between business art so? Well, man, I don't have any grievances, and there's one thing, let me get out and blow man, that's all I really care about. That's not where it's

00:49:54.100 - 00:50:06.780

laid out, man, and all those cats could 10,000 a week. Okay? Know, but maybe, well, they're losing. They stopped growing. But that's what happened. It seemed that's

00:50:06.780 - 00:50:17.820

what happened to the whole, to not the whole, because they're guys like Tara Saunders. There are some, we're doing, very few, very big minority, and the majority of the good jazz cast is just like laid out,

00:50:17.880 - 00:50:28.940

right? That's and they could say something, they're not that old to man, look at art blanking through Santa man, stay with the youngsters. Yeah, I think they should have more of an interesting what actually goes

00:50:28.940 - 00:50:46.960

on. And one time we should leave about busy Gillespie, I know by the middle of the week, James Moody was playing through an amplifier. After the fourth day we were there, and he was digging and trying it out. He and Dizzy were cracking up.

00:50:47.800 - 00:51:05.880

And so there are people you know are still open. No, it's not monolithic. But the point is that that an area of American society that everybody, meaning me and round, please, once looked on as being so creative has seen it has gone by

00:51:06.060 - 00:51:18.060

the by the way, no, it isn't totally it can still be brought back some very unhealthy things going on, and that's why the whole thing has been eclipsed out of left field by The

00:51:18.120 - 00:51:26.780

Beatrice Dylan and the people it can be all got together. It still can be done. Sure. I think we

00:51:28.940 - 00:51:41.500

were just discussing two jazz people, Spencer and I were talking about how, in a way, how the jazz man has failed to live up to, you know, his image, if you want to call it, or has failed to carry through on what looked like. You know, it was

00:51:41.500 - 00:51:52.000

going to be a very positive thing, like, why don't jazz groups play free in the park? Why did it remain for rock and rock? And there are a couple now, the young cats, you know, those new

00:51:52.000 - 00:52:00.160

guys, Jerry, Jerry green lamb man, yeah, well, there are some, but

00:52:00.460 - 00:52:15.720

that's the thing, Hey, man, but there are other guys in our blankies now, no masters of it to keep up that flair. That's never true. Any artist when he gets into mature age,

00:52:16.260 - 00:52:26.420

a jazz musician has a responsibility. It used to be the real artist, no sculptor, no musician, no classical composer. They all, when they were young, were rebellious and wild and

00:52:26.480 - 00:52:34.520

groovy. Well, let me say something a lot of them know, but I'm not talking necessarily about old guys. I'm talking about young guys. But one thing about New York, we're talking about that

00:52:34.520 - 00:52:48.100

before, see, I interviewed. I was running a book on jazz and black nationalism, and I interviewed like 25 of the youngest, and what I guess would be considered the heaviest around. But I found a tremendous amount of throat cutting back,

00:52:48.100 - 00:53:00.580

biting like one, get one saxophonist number one to play with another saxophonist. And saxophonist once had about saxophonist two, he's no good. He can't play. He's not a musician. He's playing rock and roll. That was an insult, and so

00:53:00.580 - 00:53:11.160

forth. And instead, and the one attempt to get something together, the jazz composer guild as a cooperative to protect the musicians, didn't come off at all because people the second

00:53:13.140 - 00:53:43.120

people's egos got in the way. No, it has to. Got the answers yet. Jazz has got all the answers. Now, nobody's really come up with a new answer. Well, when you find a guy who comes up with a new instrument, somebody like

00:53:43.120 - 00:53:55.240

Charles Lloyd, you'll notice he's a little rebellious. He wears funny clothes. He joins a hippie movement like you know, and that's because he's he's creating something new. The reason guys don't, you know, it doesn't happen like that, is

00:53:55.240 - 00:54:03.780

because the music itself, there's nothing new in it. There is, though, Marcus, there's a lot of ferment going on. The thing is, it hasn't produced anything. They're not there are a lot of

00:54:03.780 - 00:54:11.040

environments. There's no direction, though, that's right, it's going somewhere precisely. It doesn't know where it's going, but it knows its path

00:54:11.040 - 00:54:23.900

is in front of it. And here's the thing that no new jazz doesn't have, right? That's right. And here's the thing you know, one of the things that you could do jazz has been doing all this time. You see, like a lot of the reason it has no path is

00:54:23.900 - 00:54:34.700

there's no market for it. There's nobody buying one of the reasons, if you have a good piece, man, musically, no matter if it's jazz or anything, it'll get played. I know. Let me finish. One of the reasons there's no market

00:54:34.700 - 00:54:46.720

for it is, a lot of times people haven't heard of a particular musician. Question Now, what was stopping two years ago? Two and a half years ago, nobody ever heard of the Jefferson Airplane, right? Okay, so, you know, like you play, you play locally, you

00:54:46.720 - 00:54:59.500

play dancing, you play free. I have yet to see, or if it has, if it's happened, it's happened recently, yet to see. You know, a group of jazz musicians go and say, the art, we're going to stay together, live together until we get something going.

00:54:59.500 - 00:55:09.420

We're going. Go play free concerts in the park, because we know people did our music, and we want to play for the people. That didn't happen in the jazz community. Maybe it didn't happen because that's in New York and on San Francisco. It

00:55:09.420 - 00:55:19.200

just may be that New York competitive, cutthroat thing going in but, but instead of that, instead of, you know, like you never found a band living together in jazz, like the dead live together, right? Well, like any other band has lived

00:56:11.010 - 00:56:39.260

do that. They've got things to say, things like ideas that they're thinking of. Jazz musicians aren't thinking about anything they read the paper and see there was a whole period when when you had Tony Rollins

00:56:39.260 - 00:56:59.460

writing that scene. This old box, and it was Sonny Weldon picture, a bust of Sonny Weldon saying, you know, well, like the American Negro is at the root of this country's music and this country's humor and

00:56:59.460 - 00:57:11.710

blah blah. And why are we getting our freedom? And you and that concern that was there in sunny Rollins and a whole bunch of other jazz musicians, especially black musicians, but not unless, not only them, they never gelled into any kind of a

00:57:20.000 - 00:57:33.140

18, and I realize that's not precisely well we In other words, it isn't like we don't say, rebel against your country. We say, you know you have the choice. The world is yours. In other words, we tell the kids

00:57:33.380 - 00:57:42.880

that it is yours. Don't accept what, shut down, examine it for yourselves. Be individuals, and that's what you have a freedom to do that we don't know. I think

00:58:09.760 - 00:58:23.000

humanity is what is important. The world is much faster today than it was 200 years ago. And got to realize they have to keep up with like Marty said about technology, man, there are technological advancements that are so hard to comprehend

00:58:23.000 - 00:58:36.920

because they come up something new every day. And you can't expect to take all that in, and a lot of it is just taken at face value flat. Here's this new thing. Accept it the way it is, and the kids aren't really ready for them, and they say, No, wait

00:58:36.920 - 00:58:48.340

a moment. Where their parents will accept it. They'll say, wait now, there's a much in other words, TV is a great boon to mankind. It's a beautiful guy, man, but the way it's used, it's a

00:58:48.580 - 00:59:01.800

different story. The same thing about everything in the society, you know, on the same with the records they get so much. Not only that, TV has been a boon in the other sense, of because of its own evil. It has made this generation so

00:59:01.800 - 00:59:13.980

positive. It made them very aware that there is something right. They got so fucking bored watching that thing and so disturbed that and begin to dawn on what the fuck is. Yeah, they turned away from it, and now they're looking for,

00:59:15.240 - 00:59:26.240

you know, and there are more and more young kids thinking as well. I heard a chick about two months ago in a nightclub somewhere, at another table, she was about 18, talking to her Davies about 19. You know, I don't watch TV anymore. I used

00:59:26.240 - 00:59:39.380

to get hung up turn it on, you know, I've gone away from it. Who's a chick 18, maybe a freshman in college. Now, that's pretty young man, and she's already rejected it. That means that, the more they come up, I think are going to see that, and

00:59:39.380 - 00:59:52.120

eventually, man, the kids of today are going to get in there and be able to pull some switches in the government and the entertainment industry as it is today. I think they're going to make it better.

00:59:52.840 - 01:00:14.340

I hope they're an entertainment industry. Man production, youth is the only people that know. The Henze, right? Really? I wrote it? Man, yeah, pretty close. I think the last generation should have all died with the last generation, and it

01:00:14.340 - 01:00:24.860

should have just been a bunch of new babies and no parents. She only grown up. But better than that. Man, I think that the succeeding generations from now on ought to keep their minds open and when

01:00:24.860 - 01:00:37.880

they feel themselves slipping and getting standardized and getting into that thing as they reach an older age or more maturity, I really think that they should realize they feel that thing and keep young and keep looking to the people that

01:00:37.880 - 01:00:48.340

are young, direct them yes, but also very open mindedly, don't be closed off, examined Well, the whole burden of the educational system in the mass media and all that stuff. And that's to close

01:00:48.340 - 01:01:01.920

your mind, right? And close look, I know the guy, this man, who has a general educating system, this missed Rafferty indoctrinational system, and like this kid was seven years old, he was flipping out because his teacher didn't dig him, even

01:01:01.920 - 01:01:11.280

though he was brilliant, because he couldn't sit still for two hours with his hands holding, so he's getting CSDs, and the other kids were bad mouthing him because he said he was no good. The end of the year, he came home said, Gee, mom, teacher

01:01:11.280 - 01:01:20.520

really likes me because I was a good boy today. What'd you do today, son, I sat still for two hours with my hands holding. Think of all the curiosity you have to knock out of

01:01:21.360 - 01:01:32.660

a kid. I wonder the older son, wonder the older, the one of the older generations where it's at, that's all they learned. You know, is believe I was amazed. I was like, 13 to 14 junior high school, they

01:01:32.660 - 01:01:46.600

brought a propaganda film in. And although I did not know that maybe the idea of propaganda, I knew that this film was being shown to me was not something wrong. There was something wrong. And I said, that doesn't go with what's here. And I said

01:01:46.600 - 01:01:58.780

this. And right then I started examining things, and year by year by year through high school and college, I saw the big split. And maybe you find one or two good professors when you're in college that were hip to it, and they said, Throw that away.

01:02:03.780 - 01:02:14.460

Also, I got out of high school and went to college. I was in the three weeks, and I just dinged in my head like a bell. You know that, right? This was

01:02:14.460 - 01:02:30.640

not where it's no it's mostly high school glorified, and it's just more indoctrination. Our system really is the best system, and the Soviets Well, you know, history, history is applied

01:02:31.600 - 01:02:46.540

patriotism. Exactly. That's what I've had to contend with all my academic life teaching history. Let's turn people on to the truth, you get very you know, some people have been indoctrinated so securely

01:02:46.540 - 01:02:59.440

that when you do that, you so shake them and so threaten them that it literally does blow their mind. They can't cope with it, and they bring down the wall. This is it at age 17 or age 18, and you never got any further with those kids. Then

01:02:59.440 - 01:03:16.440

there's, you know, guess what? Guess what? Weldon tape. We're there. That's cool. I'll just keep coming back for the rest of the week with more reels and tapes.