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Frank Kofsky: Horace. Let me just begin with the standard biographical questions, like where you were born when you came to Los Angeles, if you weren't born here, and how long you've been playing and who you played with, and that kind of

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stuff. This is Horace Tapscott, eighth of April, 1969 Horace Tapscott: born in Houston, Texas, 1934 Unknown: my mother started on piano, Horace Tapscott: piano, and then I went on musician herself, you

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know in clubs. So, you know, naturally, everything that happened, anything that was musical, she would take me to it. And I went to a concert one time, and these cats were playing trombone over to him. He was so mad. And told that's

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the instrument I wanted to play, that I got serious on up to the corner, and I had a kidney. Meanwhile, I was still on the back, and I had to go back to, you know, spend more time with that. And he went to the army. You know, before that, I was

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playing my first professional job with a cat. It didn't have any legs. And his name is Monroe Tucker. And then all of my, most of my studying game from Lord Rees Captain taught Eric and Samuel Brown, teacher from Jackson

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Frank Kofsky: High that was in Los Angeles. Were you going to high school in Los Angeles? Horace Tapscott: Yeah, I went to, actually, grammar school, all the way from grammar school I got out here when I was nine

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years old in 1943 for Frank Kofsky: during the war, during the war, and I Horace Tapscott: played with, you know, they had the black union in local 767, right on Central. I live across the

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street Unknown: from, oh, wow. Horace Tapscott: I laid over there with all the cats when they used to come around and bird and catch but, you know, in

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Gerald Wilson, like Gerald wooden, the cat that really took me away off the streets playing the instrument. You know, he was a guy. He talked about 15 years old combined, picked me up. Frank Kofsky: You were, you were still playing trombone, then I

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was still Horace Tapscott: playing trombone, right? And, you know, I got to a point where I got to place where I could, you know, play

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professional, up. All the way through four years with a cat named Billy James, right? Frank Kofsky: Well, yeah, I've called Billy James, sure, yeah, when he was with some extent, yeah,

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Horace Tapscott: right. You see, he learned to play in the service, doing the same barracks and, you know, and I got out, then I went to work, you know, I had to get a job, and had a family and all that. Had to get a job. And that didn't last too

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long. And then I went with Hans, me and Lester Robertson. Meanwhile, I was still getting my thing down on the box in writing. I was writing for Hans, and finally I got to a point where I couldn't, you know, very well. I didn't, you know, I

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couldn't get no more sound from the bone like, you know, I had a little help being on the meanwhile, I was following service. I was still I started playing different camps around different cats around the town, you know, many cats before, you

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know, I wouldn't be able to play with, Frank Kofsky: you know, he had in a certain bag, certain kind of style, right? Horace Tapscott: Yeah, you know, and I wasn't able to play. So I

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had to farm my own things all the time, each time, you know, first time, first. Couldn't be able to old, original troubadour, was on lamb. I remember that, yeah, and didn't have anything but jazz every night. You know, all the cats,

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Charles, all the cats would make it. And Jimmy Woods was the alto player. I Frank Kofsky: remember Jimmy was Henze. Well, he Horace Tapscott: was in the group. We played, and we played

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and we played on up to a point, then I split again. I started Unknown: traveling, started meeting with vocalist, and back up, Horace Tapscott: back up locally, a little while, mostly,

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Unknown: how long were you with her? About a year and a half, Horace Tapscott: whenever she was working. And it was a ball to play with her, because she's a musician, mostly local cats, like my own group and things like that.

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Other than that, you know, maybe every now and then I might sit with one of the cats. We kept ourselves mostly. You know, on the east southeast side of Los Angeles, the group, we had an underground musician. We call it UCSC. You know, most of the

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camps in this group young cats are even old cats, you know, they had stopped for Henze, the will was killed, you know, and they didn't believe in most some of the cats wouldn't let them play with them, you know, because they didn't get high the

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same these guys were kicking Hans Werner Henze, pieces Frank Kofsky: you were that was your brain trial. Wasn't Horace Tapscott: Yeah, me and in the cat named Linda Linley, you know, we talked about it and we put it in motion. And it's been

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naturally that a lot of people are out of nothing, but there's still a nucleus that's there. And the whole idea now, even in these times, let's tap all the resources that we have. Now, you see, we spent all our time on 130 before we became faster,

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along with John Connor, Bobby Bradford, we were all down there together. You know, around the corner. Frank Kofsky: When did this? When did this development start? Can you kind of, like, put a year on it?

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Horace Tapscott: Which development, where everybody going? Now, what Frank Kofsky: I'm interested in is the thing, thing that interested me most was the watch. What did you call it

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first, the watts, or, well, you call it UGMA, and that's what it was, a community that started about 66 something like that. Horace Tapscott: No before that. Frank Kofsky: So 60 as early as 64 before the riots, I was gonna

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say, Horace Tapscott: we had this part of the community Frank Kofsky: college. The idea was, it sounds to me the way you described as kind of a community self help project. That's what

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it was. It Horace Tapscott: was like to preserve music. You know, our music, black music, and in that instance, you know, none of the kids knew anything about, none of the black musicians that had

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ever been around, ever, you know. And you know, the whole idea was, first, to get your own thing together. You know, in any way you could, you know, to make people realize that the community support the music as well. Because, as as an area for

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this music, it's like a classic, you know? I mean, why you see how many cats is dead now? Why? Because they weren't supported by the arm, right? I mean, like, it was no coin Kees dying before they get 50. And this is, you know, it was, it's a bad thing.

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It's a bad thing. And, you know, it affected me, and a lot of other cats in a lot of other cats give up the whole thing and go into another bag. Forget about the contribution of music, you know. And that can't, that can't happen.

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Frank Kofsky: That's the aspect that I'm most curious about, because it's frequently maintained, especially by certain group of writers that black music has no support in the black community. There's only a bunch of white

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intellectuals who are interested in it. And this isn't what I've seen. So I'm wondering, since you were actually involved in a community project like this, what kind of support you did get, especially since you've been involved in it for now five

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years? Horace Tapscott: Well, you know, it was just like this, when the band would come to us, everybody in the community knew they were, you know, like and the white people that come, from that came

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out to support, to help support. I mean, you know, they were righteous when music listeners, you know, it wasn't no thing see what was happening. They actually were music lessons, and they accepted him once as music listeners, and they knew that it

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was no big thing about who came. They understood what we were trying to get our own people to realize about what they have, you know, but like my son, Nixon, when he grows up, he has to know. He has to know about Duke Ellen. He has to know about

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fats Wally. He has to know about fats in the bar. He has to know about Clifford. He has to know about John. He knows about Colton. But I mean, even back farther than Sure, we wanted to be trying, we would like to do, like the Bob and John and some

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old cats like Lester Robinson myself and several other black author we, you know, we would like to incorporate this as a thing in the school curriculum, but you know how you have to do it through records. You have to do that to volume records, and

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this is what we like. It's new to us now, which makes it so good now, man, is the fact that it's not a competitive thing. Was Not really. I mean, as far as we know, we have to make making records for the cash, you know, we know we're gonna have

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to try to sell just enough to Linley, just so you can keep yourself together. You know, all your life. It like myself. Sunday, Easter. Sunday, I was 35 I started playing when I was nine, you know, that's my whole life, you know. And it's

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serious, and it has nothing to do with who's this, who's that, you know, I enjoy all the players, all the players that have something to say. I can dig it. And this is now we have to contribute this thing, and we have to hold this thing

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together. This is what I'm like to be a part of. Have to be a part, you know, be a part of a culture. Sure, you know, you have to have a thing to start from, a thing to believe in. It's not a thing who, who's this And who's that? Musicians in,

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you know, like in the Japanese musicians, when they play, they're talking about something that's in their tradition. They call it. That's all they're playing. About when the Africans be playing, that's what they're playing. Well, that's what we

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should be. That's exactly what we asked what that's what we're here for, and we should be supported by our communities, in the surrounding communities, to keep our Frank Kofsky: culture right. And you found that when you have the

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chance to play, you were being supported by the community. We Horace Tapscott: had the chance. We had to go through a stage of teaching naturally, you know? We had to bring people along, because after all of a sudden, they all over the radio. They've

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been hearing BAM TO BAM, electric guitars. They've been brainwashed all Davies back so they didn't have a chance to preach training. Maybe training would have still been alive. Paul says, anybody, maybe these cats would have been alive if

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they own people first, you know, first, everything has to happen economically. Sure, it's all these things have to happen together. But I mean to begin to be aware, to be aware that a giant is awakened, to be aware that things are happening, is

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the whole idea. If you don't have the bread, you want to do something, you support us by just being there, by enjoying it, by knowing that you know, you know you weren't giving your point over

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Frank Kofsky: better, identifying with it, Horace Tapscott: identifying you know, and that's what we have to do, we can't identify with just the blues, the blues stretched out from without this, without the blues, naturally, it

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wouldn't have been any what we have now. But, I mean, that's just part, part of it, you know, we should stretch it all the way out to as far as it's supposed to go, you know. And that's the idea of my being in music, you know, and I intend to, you know,

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regardless of whatever happens, how it happens, you know, working or none working, I intend to, and I have enough support of people who believe that we're going to try to do this, because it has to be done somewhere. And we love we love

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our people. We love people, and music brings all people together, and each people that have their music, that they identify themselves with, more than one thing, more than one time, more than one time. So this is for us. We have so many

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things we have to do, and we all have to do it together about the peace and army when everybody can make it, but everybody can make it, but everybody has just enough to make. And back to the music, when everybody realizes what's happening, like when your

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grandson here, Coltrane, on some record, he knows, he knows the history about it, because it's there. He can go and refer to it in the library, right? Or in school, right? You know, in music appreciation, when I was going to school, I dug

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Beethoven, all them, Kees. But see, I should have been listening to Duke Ellington too, right, as well. I know I should have been listening to, you know, all other cats. You know some cats. I don't even know that. Man, we've been playing

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some guys got records, sure, but she's not. Again, this shouldn't happen, and I don't imagine it will be with all way things are today, you know? But if we're going to do it, if we do it, we have to do it through the right time, and that's through the

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Board of Education. That's one of the best ways, and that's what our music get into. That's Kees, and you have to rely on best selling, right? You know, that's what Frank Kofsky: are you a teacher like John and Bobby?

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Horace Tapscott: No, I have, I teach a class of theory at Grants music center, right? You know the music center Unknown: in Midtown. I know Weldon, Horace Tapscott: and I teach there every Saturday. I teach

00:14:27.200 - 00:14:43.240

the Kees about as far as applying practical application of their music as a knowledge of music giveaway, as some of them had been going to conservatories, which I don't know. But I mean, these guys, they don't know anything about

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the conservatory because the school thing coming up so shy. So, I mean, here we are. We can do these things. Here. We can get the thing together. And I teach this on on Saturdays when the Black Students Union had asked, I mean, if Bobby Bradford

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couldn't make a thing. What I make? And I said, Yes, but it was good that Bobby made it, because it's all in the same thing. And I would look forward to doing that young music. I also look forward to having

00:15:13.500 - 00:15:27.860

Unknown: this orchestra, this orchestra that that's here for the community, community support. Frank Kofsky: So you definitely approve of what the BS use the various black student unions are doing in terms of making people

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more aware of their Harrison, in fact, I mean, you were thinking that way before they were even Yeah, well Horace Tapscott: yes, meaning in the younger ones character thought on the day with more action, my son, 14 year old.

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Son, 16 year old daughter. So, I mean, and they're right back, you know, they write in it, and then they don't, you know, they don't, you know, this is the way they think. And you know, if, perhaps, if they'd have thought that when I was coming up, I'd

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have been better see, right? We all see this way. Yeah, we all would have been better safe. We wouldn't have to be going through them unnecessary things like wars and things, you know, you know. But see, it's all part of it, and the music is a part

00:16:07.680 - 00:16:17.100

of everything, just like everything is part everything. Frank Kofsky: It's just what Coltrane said, too, when I asked him about that he did. Horace Tapscott: It's what it really is. It's a part of all of

00:16:17.100 - 00:16:32.300

it. When I first heard the spiritual Coltrane, spiritual, yeah, I was in New York on that day. I was in with lamb Hans, and that Sunday afternoon, we went there and they recorded that. And immediately after that, immediately after that,

00:16:32.360 - 00:16:49.480

all over the country, it started happening. I mean, it happened a little before natural but I mean after that, that sound got across. I imagine it had gotten all over the country, and everybody thought music, the music, the music, had a lot to

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do with everything. You know how they don't like you to play certain music, certain places. Oh, yeah, because you know, so I know that's one of the first things that we have to get together. We have to have more respect for music. We can't take

00:17:03.060 - 00:17:21.020

music for granted, for what we hear, the radio, the commercial, commercial outlets that we have, the mass media. That's what killed but we need more people in that who are for real. I mean, for real, you know, for everybody. I think that would be

00:17:21.020 - 00:17:37.880

hip, and I'm glad that there are the kind of even the television shows, the more the real thing, right, you know? And if everybody's living off the real thing, we can do anything we want.

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Frank Kofsky: How did you get thinking along those lines this. Lot of I've been doing this book for a long time, doing interviews for a long time, on black nationalism and the music, a lot of guys will just say, Well, man, I don't concern

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myself with politics and so forth. So I just want to play my music and so on and so on and so on. You don't seem to be thinking along those lines. You seem to be thinking in a much more in a much more political sense, that as you realize you

00:18:07.740 - 00:18:19.500

see the music as part of a general culture, and realize that the culture has to preserve music and the music will die, I'm wondering what was how you became aware of it, because I'm trying to understand the people who aren't aware of it and why

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they're not. Maybe if I understand why you are, I'll understand why they're not. Horace Tapscott: I don't know. I guess it's because, I guess I begin to realize you learn things if you go, as you go, if

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you if you try, you know, if you keep your eyes and he is, I'm trying to see why, based on, you know, why? Why did my father leave on? I mean, you know, the music is beautiful and but without their life, there would be no reason

00:18:45.760 - 00:18:53.680

Frank Kofsky: that's right. But a lot of people don't seem to understand that. They seem to think want to divorce the music from the socials. I Horace Tapscott: don't think they can. You know, whomever

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that may be, however, they might think that it's perhaps, if that's really where they think, and that's it, then that's good, if that's really what's happening. But to me, I believe that all of this is a part of it, the political part of it

00:19:06.420 - 00:19:23.000

gets together. The music parts of it gets together. The economic parts of it gets together. The people who lead in this country that this music is in, you know, are the ones who can let the music out or keep it set up, if we have these things,

00:19:23.000 - 00:19:39.980

that people that appreciate art and culture in these offices instead of the way that they are now, right? Then, then, I mean, it would be very simple, like they catch me speaking about overseas, I don't know, but to have these subsidized in in

00:19:39.980 - 00:19:52.480

different countries. All right, we know that's solid. That's cool, because that's all them. Kees had to do is play. All right, they say they were going to dry this over here. Well, then it wouldn't be free enterprise. And with all

00:19:52.480 - 00:20:02.640

Frank Kofsky: that's right, the first thing they say it was socialism or something, yeah. All right, that's all right. When they give, they'll say that when they give it to. A missile company, though,

00:20:03.540 - 00:20:16.620

Horace Tapscott: so, you know, that's why it got to me, you know, I know that they, there's a lot of bread here. I know my ancestors got handmade some of this bread, that's right, you know, I want part, I want part of it, you know, to, you know,

00:20:16.620 - 00:20:34.520

to help make this what it is, what it's supposed to be, and because longer this is not what it's supposed to be, I can never be completely satisfied, right? Or no, no, anyone like me, you know, white or black. You know, the whole issue is, if the cat

00:20:34.580 - 00:20:48.880

has henzes on this thing, some of them call it hate. I'm sorry that they call it Hans. I'm sorry that they don't understand. But the whole emphasis is like, if you want to get your house together, you got to, you know what happens in

00:20:48.880 - 00:21:02.820

your house. You know how to clean your house. You know what is in your house. You know how to do it. So you have to take certain things to do so, and this is what's happening with us. You know, I'm very happy, man. I'm very happy that we have

00:21:03.240 - 00:21:18.600

the group, and I had a chance to record with black Arthur and the cat. We were very happy for this. But if we've had any regard, we still would have been doing, sure, the same thing, sure. And we still will, even if we don't record again, you know,

00:21:18.840 - 00:21:33.200

after, you know, we'll keep this going, because this is what's really happening, and this is what we believe. And once you believe in you feel better anything you play is you don't have to make no crazy, you know, you don't have to worry about

00:21:33.200 - 00:21:44.140

who's going to dig it, because if it's a partner, may identify with it. Unknown: I mean, if they don't dig it personally, but they know what it is, yeah, yeah. They know what it means, at least,

00:21:44.260 - 00:21:56.680

the least, right? Horace Tapscott: And that's the whole I do least know. Don't think we a bunch of junkies and bitch runners, right, and don't have no responsibility. Think of us as people. You know. Think of

00:21:56.680 - 00:22:14.640

us as interpreters there for people, right? We think about selling storytellers anyway, you know, people voices, the people as well, in all ways, the Hans the voice of people. So why not utilize it while it's here? Live, alive, not dead. Don't

00:22:15.360 - 00:22:32.660

make any kind of thing out of after he's gone. He was, yeah, he's here now. Duke Ellington is here now, man, let's praise him now. Let's praise what he has offered and given to the world. You know, he is nothing. He don't have to speak about black

00:22:32.660 - 00:22:46.660

power or nothing. He don't have to do that. When, before I was born, he was writing Black, Brown and baby his own people, I mean, and people, all peoples, and learn to appreciate that, because they understand almost all people well, you know? I

00:22:46.660 - 00:23:03.240

mean, when he came up with Frank Kofsky: what prize was it in music in 1966 they turned them down. They didn't award a prize that year. I can't remember what. I guess was a follow one of those national

00:23:03.240 - 00:23:20.580

prizes, and using, so I'll be some people appreciate him, unfortunately, not as many as should, Unknown: but he, and he'd been out there 30 years, yeah, 70, you know. And he's, mean, he's still paid.

00:23:22.500 - 00:23:40.460

Horace Tapscott: So, I mean, why shouldn't the rest of them live every certain area had to be here he goes, bring some poison in the neighborhood, and you get hit. But thing of the past almost

00:23:41.000 - 00:23:55.720

Frank Kofsky: should be sides. That's just a way of avoiding the ugliness of the situation, whereas it's better healthier to confront that situation directly and look at it for what it is than it is to poison yourself so you see it. Yeah, since you

00:23:55.720 - 00:24:07.920

don't be Horace Tapscott: any just jump off because you hear you want the benefits from it. So, I mean, you got to pay the dues. That's where we have to see it. We have to see that what we

00:24:07.920 - 00:24:22.580

want. We're gonna have to pay dues for and I think on and on, it's a beautiful life, because I really enjoy waking up every day, you know, and then being around people that I know dig me and love me. You know, these are my people, these real people,

00:24:22.580 - 00:24:41.920

these are my family. I mean, I don't have to be starving. I have never starved. But, you know, I have starved according to certain levels, but far as I'm concerned, you know, I've always had something I can do to keep myself on you know, if I

00:24:41.920 - 00:25:07.060

can do that, I can do it wrong, and I can even do it better if I keep doing it wrong enough, yes, in the night. Frank Kofsky: See, I kind of forgot what I wanted to ask. I

00:25:07.060 - 00:25:20.840

mean, doesn't seem very important anyhow. I think what you said is better than anything that I could have asked you to answer. So why don't we just kind of leave it at that for me to say that I enjoyed listening to your play. Finally, after all

00:25:20.840 - 00:25:34.460

this time, oh, one thing I do on that, didn't you have some kind of hassle with the union 1.0 man, Horace Tapscott: listen, I still have a hassle with him, but they forcing me back in. They had, you know, I had a hassle with

00:25:34.460 - 00:25:54.160

him behind, working, not working. I paid my, you know, when I fished on, I paid my dues on time, even when I didn't have I go up there and try to get me a gig from a chick named Mars who gave out a gig. Okay, I'm gonna give you some gigs. I

00:25:54.160 - 00:26:13.860

drove through my bed. I made a gig one time, and lost $100 on the record day. And a cat named Ward Archer up at the Union told me that just chalk it up as experience. He did. And I said, chalk it up. It was experience, man, not on too many nails. I

00:26:13.860 - 00:26:31.280

don't have any money. I made it. I paid my dues. And then that went on. I went and then some guy was gonna put me out the union because I played a gig in Long Beach. But this jockey, I forgot his name, hell something, and he said he's gonna take care

00:26:31.280 - 00:26:51.100

of my taxes for the gig. Meanwhile, a Long Beach man come in, and he come in and told me I couldn't do this, and that I made $25 on the gig. He's gonna take my whole $25 I drove from southeast LA to Long Beach in a raggedy car. He digging. He

00:26:51.100 - 00:27:17.700

gonna take my bread. And so I told him he just had to kick my ass. So immediately he took me to Charles. Even know I was out of the two years. Meanwhile, I had borrowed seven, $750 from Credit Union. Borrowed that and I was paid. I paid that until I

00:27:17.700 - 00:27:33.740

could and then I couldn't pay enough to all the guys, Unknown: I didn't have no gig. Horace Tapscott: You're not giving me no gigs. Black Cats, no gigs. And they had certain people,

00:27:35.180 - 00:27:49.600

they still got the trickery going on. I told him, that's all right. You can have all your tricky I know you Cruz, but don't take my money. See, now, since I've been making these signs here, they had to make a deal with the union that they

00:27:49.600 - 00:28:07.080

gonna take half of my bread. But meanwhile, I have tell me about this. I have a receipt from the credit union saying pay, and somebody signature. The whole $750 is paid. Frank Kofsky: Sounds to me like the old days when you were a

00:28:07.080 - 00:28:19.380

sharecropper, and you went to the guy who owned the land, and he sold you the bread, and he sold you the meal, and he sold you the seed. You asked to see the books, and you never got to see the books. And he just told you how much you your crop was

00:28:19.380 - 00:28:34.340

worth, how much you were in that year, and you didn't sell enough crop to pay off your debt, so you wouldn't have to owe him some more money for next year. So therefore, right? Horace Tapscott: And now, even now, see that as in with

00:28:36.200 - 00:28:46.960

Unknown: Bob too. That's him. That's a Frank Kofsky: different union guy. I haven't seen him, yeah, but he looks like a union guy. Police. Unknown: He come in and he's gonna tell you, you can't play

00:28:47.020 - 00:28:58.600

here. Now, when they go down there, they're gonna have a hassle and everything until they get some break. But you never got any protection from the union. No man hadn't protected me from anything at all. You know Cecil Taylor, who,

00:28:58.900 - 00:29:12.660

Frank Kofsky: in some respects, you're playing, calls to mind. Let me cease. Tara makes the same point that the union doesn't exist to protect black music, unless they get, unless they get a, you know, unless they get a certain stature like

00:29:12.780 - 00:29:26.120

Ray Charles. But everybody Charles will need the musicians Horace Tapscott: union, or any other, you know, they finally get me some money, you know, and when I go down there, I don't get no Brahms, what about a black musicians union? Well, you

00:29:26.120 - 00:29:41.080

know what? You think they gonna that's, that's gonna happen, only if you make it happen, right? That's what it's trying to start. And they still, you know, like wicked jobs now, from another source, rather than the union, yeah, and they've been

00:29:41.080 - 00:29:57.520

trying to put their hands on it, you know, better him, oh, yeah, and they know I've been part of and me and about 400 but still, you know, they got him, he got his hand on all this. Frank Kofsky: Yeah, right. They can come closer. You.

00:30:00.120 - 00:30:13.740

Horace Tapscott: Time gangsters, Unknown: but, you know, like, if the community together, Frank Kofsky: yeah, you can get away with that. Horace Tapscott: But see, what can you do? One or two cats,

00:30:13.740 - 00:30:36.500

they don't care about you, screaming and Hans, like this guy, Henze number had to scream on him about that I don't have again, you know, he wanted, it's a good thing he didn't come in and stop session. You know, I can't stand it, man, you know,

00:30:36.500 - 00:30:56.200

the cats be here playing. You gotta go position. And he got no money, you know, you got to take a nine baby. They don't get what you got. But that, as far as the union is concerned, the only reason why I got back in it because I was four sugar and

00:30:56.200 - 00:31:15.600

anytime, anytime they make any more mistakes, I would have to say it out loud again, but really this time, because I have all my shit together, I'm having all uptight because I'm not through that right? They're not right. It's too much Brahms for

00:31:15.600 - 00:31:33.560

me and some of the other guys, they got, some guys I know that I was college with they come out every check that. Oh, yeah, sure, and I come with the one voucher, Unknown: $30 bounces, 2250 back.

00:31:34.880 - 00:31:50.020

Horace Tapscott: 2250 I got to ride across town Unknown: in a 1960 automobile, 1962 something, that ain't making it. Horace Tapscott: So, I mean, like, it's never gonna be

00:31:50.020 - 00:32:10.500

satisfying. They can't never satisfy. They don't be satisfied until everybody gets in the fast Frank Kofsky: Yeah, Tara Unknown: down first. He'll go for it, but see now they know

00:32:10.740 - 00:32:13.320

this guy has been at another studio I was at the other day.