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Unknown: Stay today, ninth, August, 1966 Do you think the phrase the new black music is an accurate description of some of the newer styles in jazz or the music you play? Well, the phrase is well known enough now that when you say

00:00:20.120 - 00:00:36.440

that you brings to mind certain names, certain people, it doesn't bring the sound of the music, or maybe it does, or maybe it didn't bring the sound of the music. Well, no verbal description is going to bring the sound of the

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music. But if Would you accept that as good a description as Henze, or, do you think they're better descriptions of it in the world of words, you know, like, I can see that that would really be important to

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certain people. Do you see the music is having any kind of political or social implications at all times, whether they believe that politics is before art, but I know that at least music, I

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mean, what politics wants to stand for. I believe that the music more strongly art. Well, it's not a question of one coming before the other. It's a question of, Do you think there's any

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connection? It's a question of people putting more value on politics getting to the art itself. I mean, all these things just going on exist. I'm aware of them being a part of maybe even unconsciously black.

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Does it affect the way? Does it affect what you play, how you play, being a part of it? He of it, but when I play, I can't get passionate. I've always been

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more involved in religions and politics. The unseen politics is the scene. So there's no mystery to politics. Do you think this music has any special relation to the black

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community that it doesn't have to the white say you're speaking to me of a certain segment of people, their views have been explained, and there's no need for me to tell someone else's views. No, I don't want

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someone else's views. I want to know your views. That's the whole point of carrying out the series of interviews. My views, if your sound is my views. See certain, certain people

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interested in talking, you know, but I'm more interested in playing. Well, I think all of the musicians are more, really, more interested in playing than in talking. Let's hope so. But they

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still, they live a life when they come off of the stand besides the life they live as musicians. Everybody lives, everybody who has a vocation lives a life away from that vocation too. And that's what I'm really getting at. I mean,

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you were Don Cherry, and you lived in Watts before you knew how to play the trumpet. That's That's what I mean. And if you were living in Los Angeles, maybe when you finished playing the trumpet for a night, you'd still live in watts. And I'm

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wondering if that sort of thing is going to come out in the music is going somehow to shake the music. Compare that, say, with George Shearing, who lives up in the Hollywood Hills, and yourself, who lives and might live

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in Watts, you explained it yourself. You just explained it. I don't want to explain it though. I want to know what you think about it. Every my views are well known, and nobody's really

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interested in my view, because I'm not a musician, I can't speak about it with the same authority as you can, because you play the music, you make the music, you what a human being does more than what he says. I mean, he's

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more value, and you can judge it by what he does. I'm very young. I have a lot to do if there's any good for me to do towards the good that existed in life and this life I had to do, it be some of some value. And I live to do.

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See, maybe, see, I've always been in this, you know, I believe in. I can't, as I said before, get past the mysticism. And there's certain things that's happened in my life. There's certain people that I've met, black, white, yellow, and

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everything that I've seen in their eyes, you know, certain spiritualness that's been worn and uplifting for me. You know that those are the kind of things I put value and I don't put I can't get involved and be, you know, political. That's too

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much. I mean, that's the other energy that I don't have myself, you know. And I sympathize with all the different Sex and Culture see coming from California. I know about all the Sex and Culture because that's a paperback book they have God is

00:05:41.080 - 00:06:00.540

a millionaire. They have all the religious sects and cults in California. They are set up where they all approach you. I was born in Los Angeles. All your life is what do you believe in? Who do you believe in? I've seen people say what they

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believe in, and do something else different. So, like, to me, is what they do? Is that why you avoid talking about I feel that when you talk about everything, you put in your

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putting yourself in a certain No, and I know, I know that there's a line, there's Buddha and then Jehovah, Buddha and Jehovah religiously, politically, I'm black, so I mean, like they can class me that way by looking at

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me. How do you class yourself as a human being, to do through sound, through love, I have a lot of value on simplicity. That's why I hope I won't say too many words.

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Well, most musicians feel the same way you do that. I've talked to most musicians. I know very few musicians. I mean, most musicians would rather play the music than talk

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about it. Those are the musicians I know. Do you think there was any significance in the fact that Malcolm X was a lover of jazz and that he had many jazz

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musicians among his close friends. I think that was just an accident. Or do you think that there was more than an accident? That he was friendly with jazz musicians and that he grew up in a jazz environment?

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It's only natural Negroes, you know, being around, he was a black man. He was raised in black neighborhood, and jazz is not like, you know what it is, way of life. I mean, so automatically, you know a lot of people, it's just

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natural. But see, like music of the people, you know, that's what makes the world more stronger than jazz. You know, all music that's always just the right quality for me to dig is always like the music from the

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people, of the people, and that's for these musicians that we're speaking of. That's the kind of music, and that's the kind of life that they live with the people, of the people, from the people, all the people. Do you think you can find any

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connection between Malcolm's ideas and the music, I have a lot of respect for Malcolm, and what he did, this is the person we know, what he did, he really, he was all the way in it to do it, you know. And I respect him for that.

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I think that the world lost a great man. That's all I would care to say to him. Would you ever consider dedicating one of your compositions to him?

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I did not know the man personally. And there's so many other people that have been close to me that have died, such as Eric and Scott lafall and Bob Thompson, which is a great artist, Linley, which I feel I would dedicate first, you know,

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because I did not know the man, and I am not a part of his I am not a registered member in his organization. They say so, but you did say you admired him. I said, Yeah, I have respect for him. I admire for

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what he did. I admire him too, and I'm not a member of his organization. Either. I think the whole world can't say, in mind, he died for what he was into, you know, so that's

00:10:04.500 - 00:10:27.380

very few people can get that involved in something where they can die for, willing to die for, that's dedication. Some musicians have said that jazz is a music that is opposed to all kinds of oppression, and therefore that it's in favor of

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people like the Viet Cong who are struggling against oppression for their freedom. What do you think about that idea? Do you see? I don't know that jazz is related to that situation at all. I

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No, I can't I can't ask No, I don't What's your opinion about working conditions for jazz musicians? Do you feel that jazz musician is treated as an artist deserves to be treated? And if

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you don't feel that way, why? Or rather, you know, I'm a man, I mean, I mean, I see the realities is happening in this time and period which I live, and a part of it, which I think is a fantastic period, because you can it is possible to have

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recognition and still be alive in this damn period. But that doesn't mean that you can live good with this recognition. You can have recognition and still be suffering. It's a lot of musicians now that have so called recognition, but they

00:11:49.840 - 00:12:10.740

still suffer. There can be better conditions. Sure, I've been in countries where the artists have been supported by the government themselves, you know. And they've, you know, they can have some some, some kind of income or something,

00:12:10.740 - 00:12:29.060

where they can create, you know. And it's a lot of beautiful art being created now, from that musicians and artists being able to have survived, to create, but still again, I know that some of the best art that's been created in America has been through

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depression, through, you know, suffer and had to produce. You know, do you think you could create more if you didn't have to worry so much about just surviving? I

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Well, you can create better. Do you think this would release any of your energy to put into the music? I feel that's no question. That's no question. Why is

00:12:57.520 - 00:13:16.620

it a question? Just out of curiosity. I don't hear any reason now create more to know. Well, I didn't know. I only know from the conditions that I have a

00:13:16.620 - 00:13:30.440

part of. I don't know the other side. I don't know about how, of course, you don't know, but I'm just asking you, what you think, like, do you think you didn't have to worry? So one thing that I have been lucky, where I've

00:13:30.440 - 00:13:43.120

been out of America and traveled around and yet, you know, and in certain and there's in certain periods where the conditions have been, all right, you know, and I've been able to create, but I've been in conditions where they haven't been all

00:13:43.120 - 00:13:57.880

right, and I still have, because of I believe in the purpose that I'm a part of talking about conditions. Do you think that there's any difference in the way that white musicians and black musicians

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are treated in jazz? I both. Do you think both have the same economic opportunities? For example, like, you know, you know, like in America, the way it is that now, the period, the way it is now, there's certain

00:14:17.460 - 00:14:37.640

musicians who like musicians that are living very well, but before, it's been very hard. I mean, it's been white musicians has got opportunities that can get opportunity even now, I think now it's not like that, because the musicians and

00:14:37.640 - 00:14:47.380

they're living very well, and they have disciplined opportunities they had before. I feel that it's loosening up a little better because I hear about friends that are getting grants and things before black

00:14:47.380 - 00:15:02.400

music. Who do you know who's gotten the grant? By the way, besides Don Ellis, and I don't know anyone that has gotten one. I've heard rumors of people that have to. About to happen. You know, I hadn't

00:15:02.400 - 00:15:24.440

murdered anyone that has one. I think that's a very good thing. A lot of musicians, again, apply for that point of applying. But see, it's just another thing. It's like the artist being an artist and the artist being a businessman, you know, and some

00:15:24.440 - 00:15:45.340

artists have that energy and that intelligence, that kind of can do it, you know, like, as far as me and I hadn't graduated from high school, that's always been like, but maybe I put so much in that music because of me not having that other thing.

00:15:49.720 - 00:15:58.840

Do you think these people are businessmen because they like to be businessmen. These artists who also operate as businessmen are because I think it's the period forces them to do that. You have

00:15:58.840 - 00:16:18.840

to, sometimes you have to do that. You know, because that's going to do it for you. And if there is someone that'll do it, they'll do it, whether they'll try to use you as a machine. Have you given much thought to the question of how working

00:16:18.840 - 00:16:33.260

conditions for jazz musicians might be improved. For example, you know, Bill Nixon, a while back, formed jazz composers Gulch, which cooperative, which subsequently fell to pieces, and Cecil Taylor has called for a boycott of all the record

00:16:33.260 - 00:16:45.340

companies and nightclubs and so forth and so on. If you thought of anything along those lines, and what do you think about those particular proposals? I also or is it something that worries you particularly?

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I think when things like that do come about, it's always some kind of results. It's always the results. I feel that now to organize much more than they've always than they've been without. You know, having an organization, having, I mean,

00:17:13.380 - 00:17:25.940

their hearts are more in tune now, and there's more love everyone respects everybody for what they're doing now. And I think that's important, and that's a very good move, you know. Like, do

00:17:29.360 - 00:17:42.040

you think that will get musicians more economic security? We shall see certain things. It's impossible for me to prophesize, you

00:17:42.100 - 00:17:53.980

know? Well, I don't want really, I really, no one expects you to prophesy, but I just want to know what your opinion is, the same as me prophesying something in the future. Do I feel like this

00:17:53.980 - 00:18:27.380

is going to happen? I'm so involved in now new Santa neighbor called New n u, which is now. Do you think that some of the younger musicians of our age look to Africa and Asia for their musical inspiration,

00:18:28.160 - 00:18:44.320

rather than looking to European music. Say, Well, this is one thing about this period that we live in. Well, for some I can see, like you know, from going to Africa myself and being around a lot of

00:18:44.320 - 00:19:08.100

people from Asia, I can see, like, how much of that is in like us, you know, like we say, the black people. But it's also, it's something about people that live on the outside, people that have love for nature, that the music, which I believe, comes

00:19:08.100 - 00:19:27.980

from nature, it's relative. It's all this is relative, all folk, of music, of people that's living on the outside. It's all relative ideas. Ears now, you know, like we can bring the whole world in one room to electronics, you know, now, our

00:19:28.040 - 00:19:42.460

ears are more accustomed to those sounds and things, and so that's why the music I feel like now in this period is more brilliant than it's ever been before, more variety, which, that's what jazz has always done for varieties. These varieties

00:19:42.460 - 00:19:54.640

is more now. So in other words, you say that there is some attempt to bring these other musics into jazz bring I feel that any aspects, anyone that has love for nature in the

00:19:54.640 - 00:20:12.960

outside is bound to have that quality of when they meet, when they play with it, the wind. Feel the wind in their face, the sun shining on do you feel that European music has as much to contribute to

00:20:12.960 - 00:20:31.400

jazz as a Africa and Asia? I feel that all sounds have something to do with music today, and that modern ears, modern feelings, able to feel all those sounds and emotions from people, melodies.

00:20:38.960 - 00:20:52.660

You remember some years ago, there was somewhat of a fad for what was called third stream music. For example, some compositions by John Lewis and Gunther Schuller. And it seems to me that this fad has failed to catch on. That is the young

00:20:52.660 - 00:21:08.700

musicians who could play it, mostly are not playing it. They are playing their own kind of music. Do you think that this is correct? And do you think there's a particular reason that period that she was speaking was

00:21:08.700 - 00:21:27.860

not a it's not a fad. Maybe that was an unfortunate word. This is music from these people that is close. Means something to them, you know. And by having the insight I know that these

00:21:27.860 - 00:21:40.420

people have that you named, the quality of music is from them, you know. And it's important. It's all important. Well, I wasn't, I wasn't saying that it wasn't important. But what I want, well, you asked me, Well, what I

00:21:40.420 - 00:21:54.280

meant was it seems that most of the musicians, like, for example, yourself, you aren't playing in that particular style, and very few of the younger musicians are. And I was wondering how you would account for that, why it seems to be

00:21:54.280 - 00:22:12.540

less popular with younger musicians than the things they are doing. Why, in other words, why? Third stream never caught on and became the new kind of jazz. See, soon as they categorized it, they categorized the third

00:22:12.540 - 00:22:32.840

stream, well, then they were leaving it, you know, that's the way that seem like people do, you know, once they categorize something, well, then they leave it, you know, so it's still, it's still, I mean, it's to me, what I'm saying is that that

00:22:32.840 - 00:22:39.920

music is just much alive and important now as any other music. But there seem to be fewer people playing it than there are other kinds of

00:22:39.920 - 00:22:52.000

music. Well, people playing what means something to them, right, as those people who played with what it meant to them. Why do you think third stream music means less to younger musicians who aren't playing it?

00:22:57.340 - 00:23:11.040

You see, I mean you could be playing in the third stream group. May prance or or Nick Holman or Archie Shepherd, John Coltrane or Pharaoh Saunders or Gato Barbieri, all of these people could be playing in third stream styles, and yet none of

00:23:11.040 - 00:23:18.960

you really are, and that's what I'm wondering about, why, where this choice comes from? Well, as I said before, you know, it doesn't mean that the third stream isn't important. It just means that

00:23:18.960 - 00:23:34.280

these musicians aren't playing it, and they must have a reason for feeling that what they're doing is what they're doing is more important. I mean, now I played other people's compositions, you know, and other people's music, and people

00:23:35.420 - 00:23:46.720

that have written music themselves have played some of my music, you know. And I think that that's the important thing. It is important to play, you know, other people's music. When you hear something, or you're involved with playing, like I

00:23:46.720 - 00:24:00.480

work with George Russell, you know, I thought it was my reason for playing with her, because I admired him for what he was doing, you know, musically. And then I felt that, like it was good for me and reading and things you know, certain musical

00:24:00.480 - 00:24:17.220

thing, and I mean different people's lives, where they are part of different things. And that's the way it comes out, other people's reasons. It's hard for me to say other people's reasons. You know, you can see other people's persons

00:24:17.760 - 00:24:40.700

purposes, but their reasons. It's hard for me to say, Do you wonder why I asked those questions? No, I don't wonder because that questions anyway, are strange to me.

00:24:40.700 - 00:24:55.120

You mean, if you can't hear it, you shouldn't talk about it. I mean, in music, there's mysteries that happen in music. That's why I like music is such a strong thing, because I've seen people

00:24:55.120 - 00:25:12.240

that haven't, don't believe in any spiritual force or the unseen. They do believe in music, you know, and I can see where music has that quality, and I think that's important. Make music so important because it has that quality, but

00:25:12.600 - 00:25:34.460

musician himself is certain mysteries that we, you know, don't know ourselves, you know, like we feel like it's not us. Sometimes this force that's coming through us that must live in music, it's an important thing for music to stay alive.

00:25:34.460 - 00:25:45.580

We could be like tools or machines, but we're guided by unseen force. What is that unseen force? What is that unseen force? What is that unseen for what it is to me and what it is to you, sure

00:25:45.640 - 00:25:56.860

to you, I mean, that's the endless thing for us to put a name word to this unseen force that goes into a whole different thing. You know, certain people just settle to,

00:25:56.980 - 00:26:24.860

you know, to a certain name. In I noticed that many of the newer groups don't have a piano. Is this a trend? Do you think and if so, why? Well, I don't think it's the instrument. I think it's the

00:26:24.860 - 00:26:40.120

people that's playing the instrument, the reasoning paneling. I mean, like there's certain pianists that can play it pure sound like to me, it's only one pianist living today that would be smart. He is the he

00:26:43.060 - 00:26:59.080

is the ringing bell of today. If you could have Thelonious Monk work in a group with you, then he would, if I would could work with Thelonious Monk, either way you

00:26:59.080 - 00:27:12.600

want to look at it, since I've been back, I've had the pleasure of sitting in with him on his mom when I came back, he said, You're back down where you walked in a Vanguard I live in across the Williamsburg. He

00:27:12.600 - 00:27:27.260

said that I walked right out and went to get my heart to play and show you the kind of respect I have with playing with it. And I love bells. Do you? Is Thelonious Monk interested in the newer music?

00:27:27.260 - 00:27:41.440

Then? Does he listen to it? Does he know? For example, who Albert Ehler is? There is no new music. Music is just as new as the Now is when it's been played. Well, let me put it this way. Two years ago, nobody had heard

00:27:41.440 - 00:27:51.700

of Albert Ehler. Now, what I wonder is if Thelonious Monk has listened to any of Albert Ehlers records, and if so, but he's what he's commented. Monk is aware of everything that's going on today, and

00:27:52.960 - 00:28:15.300

whether he listened to Albert or not, it's not important, because he is a musician himself. He has a sound to put out himself. Albert has a sound for people to listen to, but I know that, you know, like we all want to be aware of

00:28:15.300 - 00:28:30.800

everything that's going on today, and Welch, and it's possible, very easily possible, to be aware of what's happening. I Speaking of which, I've read numerous articles in which

00:28:30.800 - 00:28:46.780

writers say that the new music, I'll have to call it the new music, for lack of a better name, the new music doesn't have any form, that it doesn't have any structure, that it's just chaotic. What do you think about those, those sentiments, those

00:28:46.780 - 00:29:04.860

charges? I think that there's so many different ways. And like I say, this variety of this also goes to musical techniques mode. There is a mode of music being chaotic, because there is, you

00:29:07.140 - 00:29:17.640

can see, there's certain things that happen in life today, chaos. So there is that relationship between music and something outside the museum.

00:29:17.640 - 00:29:34.100

Oh, that's a certain mode that can happen the way, the way I look at it, you know, I believe that there's a lot of musicians that just play certain just play one mode, you know, Duke Ellington, for instance, like he has a big band, and he has

00:29:34.100 - 00:29:45.640

different musicians, and he's aware of all their sounds, and he writes certain compositions and certain motifs where he features certain instruments, you know. And I feel like, I mean, because these certain parts of the only these

00:29:45.640 - 00:29:58.900

musicians could solo in, or something, you know. And I feel like it's like that. Now it's a lot of musicians that I when I hear the names of the sound, you know, by knowing them, I can hear, you know, in certain motifs that they would be, it

00:29:58.900 - 00:30:19.260

would be only they could. Play. Why do you think some of the new music has been met with such hostility by some writers and even by some musicians? It's always been like that with something new, someone the first

00:30:19.260 - 00:30:35.720

time, if we all had that infant happiness or that an inquisitiveness that the children have where we would want to, you know, like, if it's something that we don't understand, you know, we would least not judge it. We would

00:30:35.720 - 00:30:49.060

least, you know, just see it, you know. Like, if it's just a tree coming up our plant, and we don't know what kind of plant it is. We're not going to pull it out thinking that it's a weed. We're going to let it grow to see what it is. And that growth

00:30:49.060 - 00:31:04.020

is a beautiful thing. That's another thing. Like, there's a lot of musicians, they say that aren't ready and everything, but we can, you can, you can see the growth, you know, the direction, and that's a beautiful thing, just to see that, you know you

00:31:04.020 - 00:31:19.380

can't get past it. You see that you're gonna have to. Do you think any of the hostility to the to this music comes from political, rather than musical, questions on the part of the people who are hostile letting

00:31:20.820 - 00:31:31.940

that answer their question, because he doesn't make doesn't make any sense. Who are the most influential artists playing this new music in your own opinion?

00:31:36.200 - 00:31:52.660

You mean who are some of the musicians of the day, that sounds of the day that I really love? Okay, well, automatically, all the musicians that I have played with have come close to their music by living with them. And, you know, living with the

00:31:52.660 - 00:32:16.380

sounds i i But I can't say like, 123, or ABC. You know, who is this and who is that? Well, when you do you listen to records much?

00:32:17.880 - 00:32:24.980

Yeah, I've listened to quite a bit of records. What do you what do you find yourself listening to nowadays? I think it's

00:32:36.500 - 00:32:58.360

one of the sounds of our time. Do that's all the prepared questions I have. Is there anything else you want to say about your music, or the music in general, or the jazz scene in general?

00:32:59.080 - 00:33:14.520

I just feel that it's a fantastic time that we live in Age of Miracles. I think that this should be one of the most colorful periods of our time and brilliance and love and wisdom,

00:33:16.740 - 00:33:32.060

and we all can be able to find the peace that we're looking for if we have love and patience. Oh, there is one other thing I want to ask now that occurs to me. It's been said that this new music isn't popular, and that it

00:33:32.060 - 00:33:47.020

isn't popular in the ghetto. It isn't popular in Harlem. Say if you had any first hand experience which would lead you to believe, one way or another, that the music is being well received in the ghetto, or isn't or do you know,

00:33:47.860 - 00:34:06.000

since I've been back in New York, I've heard music in the streets. I've heard beautiful sounds and beautiful music in the streets, and it's still, I mean, like people worried about the period of song, where people will be singing songs, there'll

00:34:06.000 - 00:34:22.520

be songs, new songs, everyone will be singing. Everyone will know, and there'll be sound. And the sound of now everyone is, I think it's filling the whole universe. The sound is covering the whole universe from wherever I've been. It's all relative,

00:34:22.640 - 00:34:36.800

and it all stands for the same thing. From what you said earlier, I gather that you want your music to be a people's music. That is a music that people can relate to, that they can find something of meaning for their own life,

00:34:36.800 - 00:34:47.920

person that's always lived in with the people you know, I never have been able to live to live up or over the people you know. So I've always been with the people. So automatically, that's

00:34:48.700 - 00:35:08.520

where I am. And I've played for people that have never heard music before. But when they leave, they leave with a sound, with a sound. Out, you know, to me, that's that's beautiful. And this is unconscious. This is not like I, you know, like you feel

00:35:09.060 - 00:35:19.920

to do this is what you the results you want, you know, for the people to end up singing the songs and things that isn't, that isn't the same thing as looking for a hit record. It's something that's something I'm wanting to

00:35:19.920 - 00:35:32.900

relate to the people I'm saying that maybe, I mean, I don't be thinking, like, right, relating to people, because I've been around people so many people before that when it's the same thing to me, when

00:35:32.900 - 00:35:50.080

I'm in my room or when I'm out playing, you know, it's the same thing. So, like, that's to me, that's just what the music means anyway, you know, because it was a story I love for children. I mean, we're back when people used to fight over food, you

00:35:51.640 - 00:36:08.940

know, VCs, thank you for Christ. You know, people would fight over food, but when they would try to get together, saying, Get together, that's one time they would literally get together. To me, shows the importance of what all this love from just

00:36:09.120 - 00:36:24.200

listening and playing it. Beautiful, fantastic. Important thing is there anything here that you don't want me to quote if I want to use it as part of chapter in the book. You don't want to be

00:36:24.200 - 00:36:44.020

quoted on that you said today. No, I feel that it's like if you are living with the people, you realize that what you say is what you mean. So that's, so it's, you know, naked out here,

00:36:47.260 - 00:36:52.720

you're not about to drive, and it's a beautiful haircut. You.