00:00:00.840 - 00:00:16.320

Frank Kofsky: Eventually back in September, though, so it might be possible to do something then, all right, ready for the ordeal. What did you think when you were on Aechie Sheps reporting day and he did the peace Malcolm?

00:00:21.000 - 00:00:33.800

David Izenson.: Malcolm to solve as all musical situations or all life situations. Frank Kofsky: You didn't have any ideological objections to doing a piece dedicated to Malcolm. X, why should I? I

00:00:34.400 - 00:01:01.800

didn't tell you should? I was wondering if you did, no, absolutely not. What is your opinion about him, I never met him. What do you know of David Izenson.: him, that he was assassinated,

00:01:02.820 - 00:01:16.440

Frank Kofsky: that's how much of an opinion. Why? Why David Izenson.: are you interested? I mean, if I know why you're interested, not that I have any reticence about giving an opinion about anyone. Why do you want to know?

00:01:17.700 - 00:01:30.020

Frank Kofsky: What I really mean to get at is whether there's any connection between the music and signing in general, what happens in the larger picture? And that's why I thought that asking you about that particular record would be a good way to get into

00:01:30.020 - 00:01:47.260

it, not because I wanted to bake you and put you David Izenson.: on the spot. No, I don't think fine, even if you did, I you know, it just wasn't clear about what you wanted to know, the relationship of music and what

00:01:47.680 - 00:02:01.860

Frank Kofsky: and the society, and in particular, some of the ideas that Malcolm stood for. David Izenson.: I thought, I thought that Malcolm stood for some very beautiful goals in life. There's no doubt about

00:02:01.860 - 00:02:23.060

that. I don't agree with violence, but I haven't been threatened as much as Malcolm was. You know, maybe you know he was, he felt he was his survival. It got down to that far back. I think if it got that far down back with me, I would

00:02:23.120 - 00:02:32.480

be punching Frank Kofsky: and swinging too. Obviously, it wasn't survival, because he was assassinated, David Izenson.: right? So there it is. Started. It started with,

00:02:33.080 - 00:02:51.460

you know, Assassination once a year. Now we're having it every week, and if there would be somebody who would be strong enough to influence the world, which is a very romantic and unrealistic dream, these things would have been warnings, as

00:02:51.460 - 00:03:04.500

they are now. I mean, all these things are now warning Frank Kofsky: or symptoms as well symptoms, but they're David Izenson.: definitely warnings. Things have got to be things have got to change. There's some problems. Whenever

00:03:04.500 - 00:03:21.740

someone asks me, or I ask myself, I don't wait till someone asks a question before I try to deal with it, you know, and those are questions that I try to deal with. I think that there's some psychological insights to human nature that

00:03:21.740 - 00:03:44.140

have to be considered in a sense that a man is creating music. How much of us are free from our various brainwashing processes? Well, we have many eyes per individuals functioning. You'll talk to me today. I can't say that. I'll be the same guy

00:03:44.140 - 00:03:58.660

tomorrow, and I might give you different answers too. But which one was in existence tonight, that or the day of or the moment that you're talking about it and music, and if you can consider these things, well, I think this is now improvisational jazz

00:03:58.720 - 00:04:14.100

thing. However, even that consideration is limiting, because music is music. I mean, if you're have a stomach ache or a physical problem or a mental problem, I mean, you still, if you're going to play, you're going to play too. But

00:04:14.100 - 00:04:27.800

nevertheless, those are the subtle influences that I feel should be taken into consideration for not any scale of values of approval or disapproval, but toward understanding

00:04:28.460 - 00:04:37.460

Frank Kofsky: whole thing. In other words, you would say it's a factor that what a person is exposed to, his environment and his situation in life, these things will affect kind of music he plays and the

00:04:37.460 - 00:04:51.280

David Izenson.: way he plays it to a certain extent. As I said, there are so many different qualifications. Let's take the brainwashing process that I mean as soon as I say that, that gives you a whole set of images. Let's take wanting approval,

00:04:51.340 - 00:05:08.020

like, How did Mr. X play it when the person is trying to develop their own individuality, you know, and wanting to fit in. So forth, as opposed to wanting to contribute. There are all those situations. It's almost possible to look at a man who is not a

00:05:08.680 - 00:05:18.400

musician, for me, an artist, and say, Well, I would, I think I could know how he would sound, what kind of ideas he would give on the instrument that Frank Kofsky: he'd be playing, based on what

00:05:21.220 - 00:05:37.880

David Izenson.: way he talks, the way he feels, the way you know, there's, I'm not speaking of the guy that doesn't. There are many musicians who can whose words don't correlate with, I think, their music. But then again, I haven't met anyone who

00:05:37.880 - 00:05:53.540

hasn't the highest aspirations in something else? Frank Kofsky: Well, I'm going to stay on this track, because this is the way my questions run. Now, that's what I'm interested in, because there's been so much discussion about it, you can

00:05:53.540 - 00:06:06.120

feel free to change the subject note. Have to put up with anything you don't want. In regards to jazz in particular, do you see it having any particular relation to the black community because it doesn't have to the white or do you

00:06:06.120 - 00:06:18.960

think that it David Izenson.: relates equally to all communities, while there are those in the world who have a claim which might be authentic or might be gimmick

00:06:20.340 - 00:06:39.800

Frank Kofsky: a claim, in what sense, David Izenson.: to the answer your question to those who might claim it belongs. Jazz belongs here or there, there are, unfortunately, you know, definitions don't change as fast

00:06:39.800 - 00:06:52.480

as people or cliches don't change as fast, and what is going to have to happen, or many of these statements are going to have to be changed, you know? I mean belonging here, doing the European musicians are going to be playing jazz.

00:07:01.000 - 00:07:27.720

Frank Kofsky: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For Unknown: instance, if you talk to Archie Shepp, you'll know you can he'll have a whole different viewpoint David Izenson.: because of his present situation. You know, of

00:07:29.460 - 00:07:41.620

course, we can't discard the present, but we might understand the present by being able to say what what happened? What's he going to what are we going to be talking about 10 years? Frank Kofsky: I think Archie's afraid we'll be talking about

00:07:41.620 - 00:07:56.320

the same thing, because the situation doesn't seem to be changing. Roswell Rudd, whom I've interviewed, says that the music comes out of Lisa, as far as he comes out of poverty and deprivation, desire for a better life. What do you think about

00:07:56.320 - 00:08:14.820

that statement? Well, I never heard that instrument deprivation. David Izenson.: I mean, I think it's limiting. I think it comes from every place that you can possibly imagine. As a matter of

00:08:14.820 - 00:08:22.280

fact, I challenge someone to find me a place where music doesn't come from or could come from. But when I'm talking just about music, we're Frank Kofsky: talking just about music. We're talking about a

00:08:22.280 - 00:08:35.080

specific kind of music that exists in a specific time and in Unknown: No, I think it's more related to the musical scene. a That is to say, there are people who are finding vocabularies of

00:08:35.080 - 00:08:56.130

their own and finding new rules of their own. This is probably more to do with this society in in the very lower middle class, there's proven there's a more unregimented kind of life going on. Therefore, you know, you can stress yourself. Well, you won't

00:08:56.130 - 00:09:08.460

be much for not necessarily any more free than than if you were up in a different class, but you are less brainwashed, that seems to Frank Kofsky: be agreeing with what Roswell said, that is that

00:09:08.460 - 00:09:24.140

people from a certain strata in life. David Izenson.: Well, that's not true though. I mean, I could see how it could be, but I don't want to. I myself don't feel limited. I lived for a number of years on the Lower East Side, on

00:09:24.140 - 00:09:34.940

East Fourth Street. That was my old address. Frank Kofsky: That was my choice. That David Izenson.: was my choice. Well, yeah, all I was, you know, you familiar with Pittsburgh? I was born on the Hill District.

00:09:35.000 - 00:09:51.720

Oh, you were, yeah, oh, Frank Kofsky: I thought all Unknown: Izensons. were out there. I was born on the on the I on the Hill District. A lot of the jazz musicians, both white

00:09:51.720 - 00:10:09.300

and Negro, were from poor or people definitely were for poor Frank Kofsky: people. So that seems to be bearing out. What rodeo. His own background, and Frank Smith saying, David Izenson.: Yeah, well, I don't consider a class dirty

00:10:09.300 - 00:10:26.300

names. I qualify that because I consider them more middle class than I do. Yeah, yeah. I do consider more middle class. I'll tell you. I'll tell you how you can check out a man, this is the way, what he does with his money. That's, that's what

00:10:26.420 - 00:10:44.560

classes mean, money, how you spend it? Well, you get it, where you get it too, of course, but, but how you spend it, too? I mean, if a guy is a musician that you know, he makes a lot of money and he's middle class, I'm not, I'm not so sure they're

00:10:44.920 - 00:11:01.200

aware of as much as they I mean, I like those guys because they're continually probing and so forth and so on. However, the difference between being interviewed and having a conversation, for some people is to assume an air I'm, in the

00:11:01.200 - 00:11:11.640

sense, being interviewed, but I am having a conversation with you. Most Frank Kofsky: of the people who I've spoken to have done the same thing. Great. I was very impressed with Roswell

00:11:11.700 - 00:11:29.660

sincerity. Leslie, it turns out that I have to throw away the questions, or at least modify them. We can't peew directly David Izenson.: to that line. Yeah. Well, okay, there are some stands that I'm not ready to that I think it are necessary to

00:11:29.660 - 00:11:47.260

take Right, right? Well, that, I mean, I said that so that you don't think I'm trying to be vague. Because actually, my goal, if, if I would, among the many of the girls I have is to say that we're all brothers and so forth and so on and and

00:11:47.260 - 00:12:01.140

therefore these, the ideal world is going to have an elimination of classes, so as we know it, where people will be freer to express their emotions and their minds, and that will take them with so I'm functioning at that level now maybe it's not a

00:12:01.140 - 00:12:13.260

realistic level, but nevertheless, when I meet someone from a different strata, so what I consider an adjustment at the time more than a doctrine, Frank Kofsky: it sounds to me like you're saying basically the

00:12:13.260 - 00:12:24.980

same thing as Archie and those other people I mentioned. Fine. You all want to bring about a utopia, a classless society? Sure. David Izenson.: Right. We're not happy with the power structure

00:12:25.040 - 00:12:43.240

as it is now. None of us are. We feel that there's a lot of useless people have, not people, per se, Mr. X, but situations that have to be eliminated, such as the war in Vietnam, perhaps, oh my, any war in any where the war here in New York, yeah,

00:12:43.240 - 00:13:03.900

that's Pittsburgh. Anyway, any war has got to be eliminated that I know realistically is, is, well, I mean, like Johnson, i is going the way that he that, that you could have been predicted, looking at his background, thinking of the

00:13:03.900 - 00:13:22.400

years he spent hustling and fighting and bluffing and all that untruthful kind of behavior. Perhaps this can be justified because the guy from Minnesota was such a turned around, you know, that he had to be lied to to get a certain

00:13:22.400 - 00:13:36.740

point across. Well, yeah, any anybody? Frank Kofsky: Mr. X again, yeah, challengers, fat lady, David Izenson.: okay, right, right. I don't know about that. Frank Kofsky: That's the fat lady who's listening to the quiz

00:13:36.740 - 00:13:50.440

kids. The quiz kids are always supposed to keep in David Izenson.: their mind. Oh, yeah, yeah, I remember, Frank Kofsky: are these things that musicians talk about a great deal or at all with each other?

00:13:50.980 - 00:14:12.540

David Izenson.: Well, yeah, yes and no. A lot of times I think business is discussed like, where you've been, what are you doing? What kind of, you know, things are going on. And these things are always discussed because they're in, as you can

00:14:12.540 - 00:14:24.620

tell, the uppermost of their consciousness. So they're discussed even in a subtle way, or in a subtle tone. Or, you know, one question here, one question, or some code or some shortcuts that are brought up.

00:14:32.060 - 00:14:47.260

Well, it's more to do with emotion. I mean, the intellect definitely is functioning, but the emotion is there to play to its role. It's a more honest rule. Frank Kofsky: Would you say that there's a consensus among

00:14:47.260 - 00:14:56.620

musicians about the things we've talked about, for example, creating a utopian David Izenson.: society, or there's a consensus about the whole fucking world? Gosh, you know it's really, see you're

00:14:56.620 - 00:15:04.260

taking you're taking the musicians away Frank Kofsky: from the people. Okay, I. Forgive me, you're right. I shouldn't do that, but all right, David Izenson.: but you but you can say it and I won't get

00:15:04.260 - 00:15:18.360

upset. I mean, I know you're speaking of a particular group. Frank Kofsky: I do it because I think that the audience has abstracted themselves from the musicians and don't really understand what musicians are like. I think we have a

00:15:18.360 - 00:15:26.660

conception of musicians in which the musicians are just solely, as long as they're on the stand to maybe buy them a drink between sets. But after that, you don't worry about what happens.

00:15:26.960 - 00:15:40.300

David Izenson.: Well, there is, there is the alienation between this musician and society. Is being is, I don't mean you that there is an alienation. There are some alienated parts. Definitely there always will be. The idea is to understand which,

00:15:40.300 - 00:15:59.080

I'm not sure I do, what's causing it today, as opposed to what caused it in the 1800s you know? And what's causing it today is business and these money, money, money thing, you know. Again, you know, the musician is most of most of them

00:15:59.380 - 00:16:11.820

feel that they're being exploited. So you've got to eliminate that feeling. How to Eliminate by eliminating the exploitation. Sure, you know, and a lot of musicians, frankly, don't have the balls to do it, it does take a chance

00:16:12.120 - 00:16:23.000

Frank Kofsky: also, it means a certain amount of collective action, I think, and musicians, as artists, are viewed with the ideology of individualism. That's part of the brainwashing, too. I think that we're all individuals, and the point of

00:16:23.000 - 00:16:33.620

fact, we're not individuals. I mean, when they pollute the air, they pollute the air for everybody. They don't stop asking whether you're an artist, right? David Izenson.: That's the thing. But then I look at it

00:16:34.220 - 00:16:48.160

like with Archie, I went there to do that day with Malcolm X. I was there as an artist to collaborate to create something that I thought would be of some value. That's precisely what I wanted to do that freed me from all the political and

00:16:48.160 - 00:17:00.340

ideological viewpoints that are not only unnecessary at this particular point, but eliminate Frank Kofsky: Well, suppose it'd been a day for Adolf Hitler. I mean, I'm sure you would have had some reservations about

00:17:00.340 - 00:17:09.900

doing it, and you probably wouldn't know I wouldn't have had probably David Izenson.: wouldn't know, I wouldn't have any data. But I mean, if I'm if a Nazi calls me and says, I want to do a poem to

00:17:10.800 - 00:17:27.980

the memory of Adolf Hitler, now let's assume that I want to set up a couple barriers. I'll say, Well, I have a price, a fee, a fee. Okay, bang. So I set the fee, and he says, All right, I'll pay the fee. Don't worry about the fee. We're getting all

00:17:27.980 - 00:17:44.020

these hypothetical things which are necessary to do. And I go to hear this thing of Adolf Hitler, and I know this guy is very naive, and he has this thing going well, depending on his awareness and assuming that I'm functioning in all cylinders, I

00:17:44.020 - 00:17:59.860

might be able to turn it into humorous thing. I might, you know, go in and fight it some way. Because I would honestly say to this man, I don't believe what you're doing, you know, but the words have something now, the fact is that what he would

00:17:59.860 - 00:18:14.940

be saying about Adolf Hitler, in my opinion, would be more for the most part unrealistic and untrue. Adolf Hitler is a saint, or whatever. All these would be true untrue because they're not true. So there are those rings, those vibrations of words. Words

00:18:14.940 - 00:18:27.860

have vibrations. We are all these vibrations, and these vibrations will instill other vibrations. And this fossil will expose itself. Frank Kofsky: But you would have, the point is that you

00:18:27.860 - 00:18:44.980

would have, it seems to me, in the hypothetical situation, you had some reservations where that you didn't have in doing, right? Yeah, you really did respect Malcolm X. You didn't regard it as any or any I actually considered it the privilege,

00:18:45.340 - 00:18:59.320

but, yeah, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. I have met any musician who hasn't, doesn't seven didn't say that he respected Malcolm X, exactly one exception, he wasn't white. And I haven't met any musician who is opposed to the war in

00:18:59.320 - 00:19:12.000

Vietnam. And I've met very few who don't want to change the society. It Avenue. Because even though I knew in front the musicians were concerned with social and political questions and even related their work to it, I wasn't prepared for the

00:19:12.000 - 00:19:23.420

strength of the response that I've gotten in the unidimity. There are some try not to be monitored, but for the most part, there is this consciousness David Izenson.: of the society in which they were everybody.

00:19:23.420 - 00:19:36.320

But don't forget, I tried to explain that every man is a world, which means we have a lot of eyes. So when I talk to you about Vietnam, I was definitely talking to you about it as a human being, that aspect of it,

00:19:37.400 - 00:19:48.220

Frank Kofsky: not as a musician. Yeah. Well, because elderly come, if you were drafted and sent out there, you would be killed as a human being. You wouldn't be killed as a physician. You talked about exploitation the moment ago. How

00:19:49.300 - 00:20:05.040

about to get your views on the working conditions for jazz musicians, whether you think that they're often they should be again, why you think they are what they are, what. David Izenson.: Well, I guess, I would guess that there's a bunch

00:20:05.040 - 00:20:21.500

of new guys coming around, and then there are the older guys coming around, and they deserve to be heard as much as the newer guys. And when they younger, when the older guys were younger, they had to go out and hustle to find places to play.

00:20:22.220 - 00:20:39.740

Now, whether it's any harder today to do it as it was then, is the apparently, the consensus is that, yes, it is harder to do it. Now I'm not even speaking of playing for scale. I'm speaking of the days when we used to play in the village to coffee houses

00:20:40.520 - 00:20:55.600

for if you got, if you got a set fee, like, of $10 you are really, yeah, but you mostly play for the house. You know, you got someone at the door, yeah, that was where it is. Well, I don't even know if that can be done now. I don't think

00:20:55.600 - 00:21:10.140

so. I think the fat has changed. What are Frank Kofsky: you thinking about? You in my pocket. Gone, yeah, David Izenson.: okay, Batista village knowledge, it's the rock

00:21:10.140 - 00:21:30.680

and roller. Of course, there's some classical guitars. Now, the lot of the of the new thing, music has alienated itself from society, because the nature of its music is, in a sense, alienation, and even in the classical sense of alienation,

00:21:31.460 - 00:21:55.120

and I believe that being A musician and being a performer are two different things. Now, that is, I'm a musician, but I'm also performing, which means taking one of the most important factors in the whole scheme, the name of the game is

00:21:55.120 - 00:22:08.760

communicating with your audience, whether you're playing for yourself or not, which is, we all play for ourselves, but there is a communication. I don't mean applause. Forget it. I'd like to eliminate applause, but I communicate so you so, so

00:22:08.760 - 00:22:23.900

if you walk in and you're you just heard a news Walton or some, something has affected you as a man, and you walk in and hear this room, these people have come there to there. They haven't heard the same thing. Well, you can, don't deny

00:22:23.900 - 00:22:43.180

anything in yourself, but get it. You know, find other ways to do it. And these new guys that want to play this music should be willing to pay the dues and take the time. I mean, if they're 50 years old, if they're still you know, maybe they're

00:22:43.180 - 00:22:56.860

tired of living in decrepit places. I myself don't even have a place to stay. I'm staying with my in laws. So you know, if you're tired of it, then fuck it, go out and get a job selling or doing something else, right?

00:22:57.040 - 00:23:12.360

Frank Kofsky: Second jobs, and usually they aren't playing David Izenson.: of you making days? Yeah, well, that's what they have to do. Mind Your Way, Jim, they threw upstairs, oh, even when you Well, what I was

00:23:12.360 - 00:23:24.740

Frank Kofsky: thinking of not only the difficulty of obtaining employment, but when you do obtain employment, do you feel that you're treated commencement with your status as David Izenson.: an artist in general? No, not. I mean, you

00:23:24.740 - 00:23:42.100

can't. Well, first of all, I heard European musicians, classical musicians, that tell me that at home, they were treated as much more respect than they are. Here. Did you find that to be the case in general? Well, I haven't found

00:23:42.100 - 00:23:56.680

any disrespect toward me anywhere in the world yet. I mean, I guess they're guys that don't like jazz musicians, and therefore they don't like me. But that's, that's their problem, you know? I have, I think, if I have, I know that

00:23:56.680 - 00:24:08.340

banks and if you tell someone you're a freelance musician, they're not going to consider you a good risk, Frank Kofsky: you know. No, that's true, David Izenson.: you know. And the musicians of the day are

00:24:08.340 - 00:24:23.960

going to have to pay some dues for their what they like. You're paying dues for your father in the same way, well, the same way, paying dues for the junkie images and the and all the other unreliable images I've had so many people say you don't drink.

00:24:23.960 - 00:24:37.280

It's not amazing your musician, you don't drink. Fine. That's that's tells me what they're thinking about experience. Frank Kofsky: Do you think that the fact that most musicians have Mort of jazz life and identifies black musicians in

00:24:37.280 - 00:24:54.460

many disasters? You can be explained, David Izenson.: right? I'm nodding my head. Frank Kofsky: I flipped back the pics. You know there's so much missing, because we do it all by Do you

00:24:55.000 - 00:25:06.420

David Izenson.: think conditions Frank Kofsky: are serious? Up to necessitate some of the measures that have been taken. For example, Cecil Taylor called for why not all

00:25:07.740 - 00:25:23.480

club owners, owners, record company owners. And Bill Nixon formed the jazz proposes guild just two David Izenson.: different means, appealing problems. Cecil recently played the Vanguard. When? How did he call for a

00:25:23.480 - 00:25:33.860

boycott if he played at Frank Kofsky: the vanguard? David Izenson.: Nixon, have you talked to Bill Nixon yet? He Frank Kofsky: also, when I asked him about that, he said none of

00:25:33.860 - 00:25:50.920

the other musicians went along with it. Musicians went along with it. Getting more started, what do you think anything jazz musicians do have problems that

00:25:50.920 - 00:26:06.060

they aren't treated because they deserve to be treated. How do you think that this can be David Izenson.: remedy, because when they're treated so many times, they're being treated as human beings, and the

00:26:06.060 - 00:26:27.260

inconsistencies that you have seen coupled with inconsistencies that you don't know about, plus the way they relate to people, I mean, you are seeing, perhaps you're seeing these guys at their best, if, in some way, yes, you're

00:26:27.260 - 00:26:41.740

saying you're seeing them at the best. But when they're talking to an owner as to their landlord, are they obsequious? You know? I mean, there are those kind of people or net you know, his success is greatly based on his personalities

00:26:41.740 - 00:26:56.560

versus me. I mean, I don't mean aside from music, when he talks to people the way he relates and can talk to these guys, these businessmen, will share on you if you let them do it. But so will Mr. Grocery clerk, without even him knowing that he's

00:26:56.560 - 00:27:17.820

really doing it. The jazz musicians image of him being as a quiet, peace, loving, anti negative world kind of thing, perhaps influences his behavior with other people, and they allow things to happen that are wrong with your forgiving heart.

00:27:17.820 - 00:27:29.600

Then when they come and sit down and talk to you or to themselves or at a level, then they have nothing but these rights, these reincriminations, Frank Kofsky: great bitterness, and yet, when I asked the

00:27:29.600 - 00:27:51.100

musician question what he thought could be done, David Izenson.: he said, That's That's another neurosis of the recognition I deserve it see, it's to me, the privilege is not what comes in, but what you can give out. I'm always thankful

00:27:52.240 - 00:28:07.440

once I get over other problems of getting to the place, which are not part of this conversation, right? I once I once I get once I get over the problems of getting to the place, I am able to feel nothing but gratitude and gratefulness

00:28:07.440 - 00:28:25.700

because I'm going to have a chance to get someone's attention and to lose it. I'm treated with a great deal of respect. Okay? Frank Kofsky: It. Do the new musicians look to Africa and

00:28:25.700 - 00:28:36.380

Asia for musical integration? David Izenson.: I think so. Why we're also going to look for I mean, are they looking to look for New Orleans anymore? They can look to Chicago anymore. They can look to New York

00:28:36.500 - 00:28:51.700

anymore. You know what? Everybody's looking into somewhere else, the over there. They're looking over here, over here, we're looking over there. This thing of creativity is searching out new ideas for yourself and being able to

00:28:51.700 - 00:29:07.860

digest them and have them come out. So you look for all these things, and you hear all these things. Another thing is that they're looking for the primitive oftentimes tells what is natural. You know, you see a tribe and you hear the music

00:29:08.340 - 00:29:22.520

shaking, rattles and up ankle bones and scratching, everything. You know, all these have a natural rhythm. There is a correlation between them, by the way, I could, I could save them a lot of time by telling him precisely what it relates

00:29:22.520 - 00:29:33.200

to, and that is to their heartbeat. You know, we all relate to the rhythm that we do is all related to the heartbeat. You listen to your pulse, to some of this music, and you'll see how it

00:29:34.580 - 00:29:44.560

Frank Kofsky: isn't only that they're looking elsewhere, but they're looking specifically to these places. They're not looking to Vienna or Prague, David Izenson.: no, no, and they never, they never will, because

00:29:44.560 - 00:29:53.980

it's, it seems to be, Frank Kofsky: I don't know why. Maybe it's because they're all non white, David Izenson.: yeah, no, I don't know. I don't believe that

00:29:54.220 - 00:30:11.220

the color will because there are some i. I don't Frank Kofsky: mean to date. I just mean that this is they have political motivations or social motivation, David Izenson.: yeah? Well, why not? There are some that do, of

00:30:11.340 - 00:30:20.880

course. Frank Kofsky: Have you heard Coltrane's man recently? By the way? No rambling things, yeah? Tambourines, gourds, yeah? Marcus.

00:30:21.240 - 00:30:36.260

David Izenson.: I wanted to get in Friday night, but I couldn't. I was away Frank Kofsky: constantly David Izenson.: in the background. I have, I have takes

00:30:36.260 - 00:30:51.460

of some gentlemen that have been doing this for over 10 years, and no one will ever hear of him. So, I mean, it's fine. I'm glad to see that he's joining in on some of these things, which is about all that's the funny thing, the delusion is their

00:30:51.460 - 00:31:00.540

creativity. There is no such thing really. We're just joining into something that is new for us. Yeah, they're about six Frank Kofsky: or seven different things that Coltrane has done, that other people have done before, but he does either more

00:31:00.540 - 00:31:07.860

persuasive way or to a wider audience or David Izenson.: something. Coltrane has his own chemistry, so he can do some Frank Kofsky: what seems to be almost the identical thing that

00:31:07.860 - 00:31:21.500

somebody else does, and when he does it, it isn't identical anymore, right? Playing two notes at once on the saxophone, which he wasn't the person, but he was persuasive. Do you think there's a tendency or a trend now towards group improvisation

00:31:22.520 - 00:31:29.360

more so than, say, 10 years ago, David Izenson.: Sure, definitely, it's all evident. Why do you Frank Kofsky: think this is happening now in Indian music?

00:31:29.360 - 00:31:48.580

Why do you think group improvisation is coming? David Izenson.: Well, to answer that question would be to would be difficult for me, because for me, for instance, there was no other choice. I was playing with jazz that was that I thought was

00:31:48.580 - 00:32:06.120

happening and learning, you know, and I thought about, well, let's, let's do it. How many choices do you have? You know, either play group, organization with this kind of a structure, that kind of a structure, I think that just the inevitable

00:32:06.120 - 00:32:18.300

thing you know, definitely. Frank Kofsky: Do you think there's a tendency to want to get away from the old star system, where one man the sun was, say, was a star, and everybody else was relegated to

00:32:18.300 - 00:32:33.660

a kind of supporting role? You think this plays any role? David Izenson.: Well, are you using star in the stereotype Hollywood? Yeah. Well, yeah, best Frank Kofsky: example, I think, not by his own choice, but of a

00:32:33.660 - 00:32:43.600

man who was cast in that role by writer said, yeah. So when he died, everybody want to know who's going David Izenson.: to be the new bird, right? Oh, I see, yeah. I don't think that will ever because writers will always be

00:32:43.660 - 00:32:58.900

doing it, if that's the case, if they're the ones that are guilty of doing it, let's ask our writers going to change Frank Kofsky: among the writers, for one thing, there have been black writers, really, for the first time. Another thing,

00:32:58.900 - 00:33:13.680

they've been writers. Who are, you know, social radicals like myself, we have a different warrant, just journalists. David Izenson.: Well, then that's that will happen. There's always going to be stars in the sense that someone's playing, if

00:33:13.680 - 00:33:24.800

it's 30 seconds or 30 minutes, it's going to shine out, okay? It means to start shining out that way, but Frank Kofsky: you can do it in a group situation as well as David Izenson.: a Yeah. Well, the thing, yeah, well, the

00:33:24.920 - 00:33:38.000

biggest break is, of course, the rhythm of concept, you know, I mean the bass player that doesn't obligate it to a specific rhythm when everyone else has the freedom to change. Frank Kofsky: Why do you think third stream music failed to

00:33:38.000 - 00:33:55.240

win? Should pursue the best qualified plan? David Izenson.: Well, I don't know. I guess a couple reasons. I guess because of the power structure that got involved in it. Well, the third stream has been usually identified with

00:33:55.240 - 00:34:17.280

specific people, and it didn't Brahms. It didn't include enough people, yeah, right, and that wasn't strong enough to hold its own. And since that time, other people that were involved in it have gone on to different things, you know, and they

00:34:17.280 - 00:34:29.720

themselves left it or, you know, I mean, they have they created something, and it's sort of there, and they might come back to it once a year and do an album or write an article about it or something, but I think it's

00:34:31.280 - 00:34:46.780

if You never mentioned it, they would be forgotten. Yeah. Oh, vocabulary. Frank Kofsky: Oh, many of the new groups are piano lists. Is this also a coming trend?

00:34:47.380 - 00:35:06.600

David Izenson.: Yeah, I think so. I think it's it's so because the Western scale of tonality is too much dictated by the piano. Now there are piano. So there are, there should some of these piano players should learn how to tune their their instrument

00:35:06.600 - 00:35:20.480

almost instantaneously, so as to be able to go in the cracks, to be able to get those quarter tones and semi quarter tones. There are. There are piano players that can do it, but they're not. They're more mechanical. I mean, they can do

00:35:20.480 - 00:35:33.380

it, but they're not the creators. And I think that the piano player, if they want to stay in the business, is going to have to add to his tool a tuning bar undertaking of the job, you know, say, I'm going to and tune the piano. So it will

00:35:33.380 - 00:35:42.940

be unique. Are Frank Kofsky: there any jazz piano players who can play the cracks? David Izenson.: Now, I don't know, because the cracks, my

00:35:42.940 - 00:35:57.100

dear, there's no mystical thing about hitting the key. I mean, in sound, there may be the mystical way of a way one piano player, I'm not talking about me, but a sound is a C natural. Is a C natural. Now it will sound differently if the guy's

00:35:57.160 - 00:36:08.820

willing to. I mean, you could make the piano sound like it's in the crack. That's what I mean. So that, but that has nothing to do with the piano player. Oh no, I can make the piano as a bass player because it sound like it's in a crack.

00:36:08.820 - 00:36:21.980

You mean when you strike a key or by doing something, when I'm playing the orchestration of my sound and that sound? Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Frank Kofsky: Had a way of striking the Canon to make a

00:36:22.520 - 00:36:38.780

deviation mistake. David Izenson.: Dodie, he might have, I think, I think that Cecil does it by force, by willpower. Frank Kofsky: Yeah. Do you relate this?

00:36:39.260 - 00:36:54.880

David Izenson.: But you notice that his slower things are more right on, you know? I mean, the Wilder gets. Frank Kofsky: Is this? Because that is this piano trend towards doing more of the piano. Is this because the new music is like

00:36:54.880 - 00:37:07.520

speech, and speech can be defined down to just 12 tones. David Izenson.: The new music Frank Kofsky: is like, speech, David Izenson.: yeah, and it's trying to do what the

00:37:07.520 - 00:37:18.860

Frank Kofsky: 12 No. Then he's trying to he's trying to sound like, yeah. You can't do that with just 12 tones, because people's voices rise and fall and slur. David Izenson.: I think you could do it in 12 tones if you

00:37:18.860 - 00:37:36.980

want to be different. I you know, a lot of a lot a lot of people, a lot of these guys, are saying to themselves, why should I learn a system and I can create my own? And the system that they've created is not, is not, is a system of non systems.

00:37:37.580 - 00:37:46.960

Frank Kofsky: You mean it's chaotic? David Izenson.: No, not Kees, yeah, chaotic is, yeah, sure, some of it, it greatly is that is some of it's a lot, a lot of its chance.

00:37:47.620 - 00:37:57.640

Frank Kofsky: Does that mean certain writers have charged that this music lacks any kind David Izenson.: of form or structure? Well, why is that a charge? Why guilty? If it does? Because they make it in the

00:37:57.640 - 00:38:12.360

spirit of making it a charge. Well, it lacks, if it lacks anything, it's and it's a predeterminism, but after it's over, I know professional analyst will, you know, take any music that you have played and even go as far as to give you a

00:38:12.360 - 00:38:30.080

chord structure on it. There are ways to do all these things. See, whereas Edgar Perez of years music, you know, well, I had the very good fortune to be with him and study with him for a while. And his genius wasn't being able to any sound. That

00:38:30.080 - 00:38:44.860

sound right there, right he could note that down so that a musician could produce it. He would have to maybe get, I mean, an unusual instrument to produce that rumbling. You know, that was his genius, and he really didn't like the chances the guys

00:38:44.860 - 00:38:58.240

that were taking, you know, Kees, you know those guys, you know, call that mental masturbation. Well, you know, there's a guy is a composer, he's, he's, you know, he has a way of life, and his way of life definitely has these disciplines

00:38:58.240 - 00:39:16.080

which can attack other disciplines, I think that in some cases, that that's considered desirable. I had to, I had to go through a great deal, not a great deal. I don't want to make it too dramatic, but I I had to, really, you

00:39:16.080 - 00:39:28.520

know, learn how to forget what I've learned, you know, honestly, so that I can free myself Frank Kofsky: do these things. So it isn't the question that new music has no form, but that it has a different kind of form

00:39:28.580 - 00:39:41.140

than what has by now become conventional. David Izenson.: Yeah, Frank Smith's Frank Smith's group has a form. Archie Sheps group has a form. John chi Kees, Bill Nixon's group, Werner, they all have our form. Some are similar

00:39:41.140 - 00:39:59.620

to each other. Some are different. But after a while, if you really know it, it's well, I mean, I What speak, it becomes predictable, which is no, which is not wrong. I mean, haven't you found musicians upset by the word chaos? Yeah, which is about

00:39:59.620 - 00:40:11.820

sure they. Shouldn't be. It's not a sin because they're so afraid of confusion that they forget to become afraid of slavery. Frank Kofsky: I think that really isn't my question, sort

00:40:11.820 - 00:40:23.420

of even the score. That just gives musicians a chance to talk back to people who are making those charges in the spirit of hostility, right? You can use word chaotic in a purely descriptive sense, without any pejorative connotation. Without

00:40:23.420 - 00:40:36.980

any pejorative connotations. David Izenson.: Yeah, right. In the writers that have been listening to music from, from, yeah, from the third 40s, in the 50s, you know, let me, let me tell you a story about a fake.

00:40:37.100 - 00:40:59.680

You know, in they have these F, A, K, I R fake here, yeah, some Indians, not all are fake Kees, you know. So this man had heard about a fake here who was able to lie down on a bed of nails. This was considered to be of the highest nature, the physical

00:40:59.680 - 00:41:14.940

control. He went to see him, paid him his fee. The guy, you know, is professionally and sure enough, he got down there, and he was laying on a really sharp bed of nails. So he made so came back to another friend of his, who was a teacher in the world,

00:41:14.940 - 00:41:29.240

I mean, in the most honorable sense of the word, a master, teacher, guru of the world. And He said to him, you know, I went to see this Faker and I but I didn't see any advantage in his being able to lie down on the bed of nails. As a matter of

00:41:29.240 - 00:41:42.460

fact, he looked rather dull. I mean, it didn't, it wasn't it may. He may have had something happening with his physical body, but nothing was happening with his spiritual and his mental thing. And the group explained that this Faker, like

00:41:42.700 - 00:41:58.060

most fakers, were trained by a school, and it's a form of it's definitely a form of hypnosis, which is a post hypnotic suggestion, and if you had paid him more, he would have probably told you the word that he uttered to put himself into this

00:41:58.060 - 00:42:09.840

self trance. But even that wouldn't have done you any good, because these people are easily, many times, sold by their parents to these schools who teach them these things. And they go out in life and they do other things, and they put

00:42:09.840 - 00:42:24.260

themselves in this hypnotic trance, and he's not even aware of it. Well, this this kind of self brain washing. So music does that to people. So you hear Tang, tangy thing for 1415, years, and actually you're gonna be you're gonna get confused.

00:42:24.620 - 00:42:39.800

This is my way of forgiving a person who has the pencil and be not his job, and he's writing, and I don't consider because a writer is a writer, he's a threat, or he's many musicians. Unfortunately, have you see, if you want to be famous, it has

00:42:39.800 - 00:42:54.160

been said, Be Friends of a writer doesn't really know it doesn't, but I'm Frank Kofsky: telling you, okay, oh, but David Izenson.: it has nothing are, but not necessarily you as

00:42:54.160 - 00:43:04.560

a writer, but critics rather feather. But that has nothing to do with being truthful and honest. Okay? Well, I mean, that's how I understand Frank Kofsky: it. May not even have anything with keeping

00:43:04.560 - 00:43:17.160

alive, because that end up with writing about Cecil Taylor for almost 10 years, and Cecil Taylor still, right, okay, right. And Cecil's case, I think it's deserved that he should be written about, because I think the man has truly something to

00:43:17.160 - 00:43:27.620

offer in the music. That's David Izenson.: what you should do then, yeah. Frank Kofsky: But the thing is, you can't, you can't hype a man. Well, the record companies don't want to put out his records.

00:43:27.800 - 00:43:36.320

David Izenson.: Why don't the record companies? That's a good question. What does his answer to that? His answer is simply a Frank Kofsky: matter of economics. He asks more than they're willing to pay.

00:43:38.300 - 00:43:47.860

David Izenson.: Right? Why does he do that? Frank Kofsky: He does that because he feels that it's below his stature as an artist to accept what they David Izenson.: want to pay fine. Okay? That's that's now,

00:43:48.220 - 00:43:59.320

why isn't there economics up to his level? Frank Kofsky: Because they believe, rightly or wrongly, that they can't sell the record enough records to make a living, David Izenson.: right? I mean, you know all the answers. If I

00:43:59.320 - 00:44:09.660

didn't know this, I wouldn't know anything. Sure. There it is, there's there's the answer. Now you if you really are as a writer, I think if it would be possible, you should look at some of the sales records

00:44:09.660 - 00:44:19.380

Frank Kofsky: of these. You see, this is the most. This is impossible. I've tried this. These guys are so secretive and so categorically dishonest. They will either tell you that a record has sold a million copies, when you know them, is

00:44:19.380 - 00:44:34.460

physically impossible, or else I tell you that it's all 10 copies. I tried to do this, as a matter of fact, with Ornette sales, a contemporary. And I talked to last Kees you Hans Werner, post les Kees career, well, I got shilly shallying and

00:44:35.000 - 00:44:46.780

evasion, but it never got me hired in fast figures. I couldn't even find the point at which Ornette started getting royalties from his sales. How many had to sell before royalty? So the last thing these fellows are going to do is to throw up

00:44:46.780 - 00:45:03.360

in their books. That's what I would like to see. How is it that new records can be sold on Alfred lamb and get $2 million no religion, from Liberty? I don't think any some told the law. All musicians ever recorded for blue node.

00:45:03.360 - 00:45:15.180

David Izenson.: No, there is something, though, that every man, woman and child, should never forget, that an idea or some endeavor and some work, regardless of its thing, is worth some money. Now, Alfred line maybe didn't deserve $2

00:45:15.180 - 00:45:29.360

million but he damn, I never met Alfred Linley, huh? Yeah. But I think, I think that that there's, you know, if he did all the power to him, all the parties he tailor to get $50,000 a record date. You know,

00:45:29.480 - 00:45:41.680

Frank Kofsky: the two are mutually commensurate, but if they're not, then what do you do if Albert lion has to take David Izenson.: us? Well, he doesn't have to what Vinci Frank Kofsky: has to who Albert lion take a smaller cut. If he

00:45:41.680 - 00:45:51.940

pays Cecil what he wants, because the profit margin will be cut down. Are you sure that it will? I'm not sure. I don't believe that, but that believes that's why you won't pay Cecil Levi right.

00:45:51.940 - 00:46:06.360

David Izenson.: Well, but why should we get involved in their problems if we can't see there's one of the bullshit things about being about the world in the army, have you spent half the time complaining? No one ever does a God think about it. Well,

00:46:06.360 - 00:46:19.920

it's still going on either. And I don't know if it's really worth going into why they don't, but I know it's these guys give themselves a fix by Frank Kofsky: complaining the musicians, yeah,

00:46:20.940 - 00:46:29.600

David Izenson.: this is not related. To the Cecil Tara because, I mean, there's some realistic facts involved there, right? Frank Kofsky: So, yeah, I understand that

00:46:30.260 - 00:46:39.500

David Izenson.: everybody wants to look good. Everybody wants to be hero, and that's a brainwashing kind of thing. Frank Kofsky: And if you're, if you really are imminent in the situation where you feel you are, then, rather, there's one

00:46:39.500 - 00:46:51.640

way of getting it consolidates. Yeah, it's a real dream. That's why it's so prevalent. Do you think artists have responsibility to educate their audience in any way other than the musical or the artistic?

00:46:52.660 - 00:47:06.060

David Izenson.: Well, they have a definitely have a responsibility to respond, which is an education. Frank Kofsky: How do you go about doing David Izenson.: them, like talking to guys like you, to

00:47:11.700 - 00:47:27.020

Frank Kofsky: you who are the most influential artists that play the new music, and how did you go about David Izenson.: determining them influential? Alice Mort cigarette give us hope. Clap, yeah,

00:47:27.020 - 00:47:45.940

Frank Kofsky: I don't know. I never asked everyone. I David Izenson.: wasn't looking for one, because I know I don't. Frank Kofsky: Yeah, what was that question? Yeah, who are the most influential artists? To whom? To you?

00:47:46.180 - 00:48:04.080

David Izenson.: To me, yeah, I listen to them all, and you're Frank Kofsky: influenced. I go, David Izenson.: I'm influenced. I'm influenced probably 24 hours a day. Yeah, I wake up and I do some wild things when I wake up,

00:48:04.140 - 00:48:16.740

I'm my most, most dangerously creative after I wake up, first things that come to my mind are very spontaneous. That's why I'll never, really, I think, make the record that I couldn't make because I should sleep in the studio, wake up and

00:48:17.760 - 00:48:34.400

Frank Kofsky: start to play. Not worth it. David Izenson.: Alfred Linley, too, Frank Kofsky: for Linley, I know where you were born. You were raised in Pittsburgh, too, weren't you? What's How old are

00:48:34.400 - 00:48:54.620

you? 3040, David Izenson.: 60. I was born 32 so it makes me 34 Frank Kofsky: What's your educational background? David Izenson.: How far back you want to go? After high school,

00:48:55.100 - 00:49:03.000

after high school, formal education? Frank Kofsky: Yeah, whatever, whatever. That fits the bill, as far as you're concerned, David Izenson.: as far as I'm concerned,

00:49:06.720 - 00:49:20.940

Frank Kofsky: I mean, private study, university, college, what have you, yeah, how much you're all that? Yeah, did you go to the pit? Did you No, I went to Kenneth tech. Oh, you did. Stuck it out for four or more years. That's right, you would go to

00:49:20.940 - 00:49:31.940

Carnegie tech. How's music department? By the way? David Izenson.: I thought some I thought there were a couple great teachers there. They're pretty at that time. They were pretty orientated toward education, that is, teachers,

00:49:32.900 - 00:49:52.300

all right, well, but those of us who were primarily interested in performance and the musical philosophy and so with and so on. We're a different breed apart as always as always. Yeah, and I had a he's still there at Tony Bianco plays principal with

00:49:52.300 - 00:50:14.460

the orchestra. Place, Principal, base. Great guy. The philosophically Christian men I ever first met, Frank Kofsky: is that what saved you from Pittsburgh, anybody creative at all can come out of that environment.

00:50:16.020 - 00:50:30.140

David Izenson.: Because to me, what saved me well, Tony. Tony, yeah, I don't know who said it, but someone said we are blessed very few times our life, and one time is with good teachers. You know you're How do you know? You know, bang, there he is, and you

00:50:30.140 - 00:50:45.920

go to study. Tony Bianco was very helpful, because I he was my first teacher and I didn't know how to play the instrument. He helped me get into Kenneth tech. KENNETH tech, and I didn't know how to play. I had the end of the year. I was going to be

00:50:45.920 - 00:50:59.900

reconsidered, but still, I had that one year to really qualify. Yes, which I mean, in other words, I'm grateful to him because he gave me a chance, among other things, that he has our beautiful qualities, pride and dignity. What do

00:51:02.540 - 00:51:12.180

Frank Kofsky: you want? You want to say that I haven't gotten to so far? David Izenson.: Well, I don't really feel Frank Kofsky: exhaust your questions. Yeah, I mean, the

00:51:12.180 - 00:51:27.920

formal prepared David Izenson.: ones. Oh, the formal prepared ones. I don't know if it's the frame of mind that I'm in today. I don't feel I have any ax to grind. You know, I about myself, can humbly

00:51:27.920 - 00:51:46.300

say I'm really learning, and I recognize that there are a lot of problems in this world, as there always have been. I don't know about the future. I wish I wish I could do more actively than I am right now, I feel that playing the instrument is the

00:51:47.320 - 00:52:03.540

creating some music writing. I ain't about to go anywhere and get my Hans broke. At least Frank Kofsky: I wouldn't go another account because I want somebody to shoot me without getting a chance to shoot back.

00:52:03.540 - 00:52:21.740

David Izenson.: Right? We're all full of contradictions, but it's it's the natural phenomenon of recognizing that we're our own universe, and there are many eyes functioning, and some basic laws of survival will always to instinctively do these things.

00:52:23.240 - 00:52:48.570

I'm not at all as I used to be upset because I saw false pictures being painted. I feel that, Frank Kofsky: people of you, it no longer worry about people. David Izenson.: I don't think I did. If you listen back to that

00:52:48.570 - 00:53:08.700

rule, you'll see I didn't say that. I said that I'm learning to respect other people enough. So if that's that's what they're doing, whether consciously or unconsciously, that I can't, I can't, I can only help them by

00:53:09.120 - 00:53:33.860

being, by being in direct communication with them. And I'm right now I'm only in direct communication with you. Okay? So you have to learn to eliminate, I guess, a lot of unrealistic feelings be more constructive. One feels won't be so tired.

00:53:35.360 - 00:53:53.260

This is all draining out these energies the center, you know, knowing yourself and these things just takes time and takes study, and it's a matter of how much are you willing to put into it? Caught up in the society doesn't emphasize that. I don't

00:53:55.540 - 00:54:06.720

know how or why, but I escaped some of it. I have, I'm still paying some dues. Frank Kofsky: Just what you mean. Because I always look back and wonder myself and say, How the hell did I get out of it?

00:54:07.140 - 00:54:18.720

Coming from my middle class, David Izenson.: Frank, that's it. You're not out of it. You're not, of course, no, you still touched by it. No, no, no, no. I don't even mean that. No, no to me, it's not getting out of it,

00:54:19.920 - 00:54:30.020

in a sense of leaving it. The idea is that making it better, whatever that is, Frank Kofsky: but before you can do that, you have to be able to stand almost outside of it and look at it and see that it's

00:54:30.020 - 00:54:44.080

bad. That's one way. That's one way people who live it don't even take an objective look at it, because David Izenson.: there's well. But I believe that being if you could learn to know yourself better using not only the

00:54:44.080 - 00:55:02.340

philosophical or spiritual means, but scientific like psychoanalysis, oh yes, any way possible to know thyself better and recognize these different eyes that function and these different. Worlds that you have to consider you

00:55:24.500 - 00:55:43.660

I have been dealing with a particular subject in my mind, a psychological subject called looking good. How people look good. For instance, if we if I were to address the question, not only to you or to myself, What is the worst thing that I

00:55:43.660 - 00:55:56.080

could tell you about myself? I think would you be pressed for an answer? You don't have to answer. Would you be pressed for an answer that I could tell you or either way? I mean, I'm asking you, would you be pressed for an answer if I asked you,

00:55:56.080 - 00:56:06.240

What was the worst thing you could tell me about yourself? Frank Kofsky: Yeah, I think I would, because I don't think I've done anything that David Izenson.: bad. Well, there's the worst. I didn't say

00:56:06.240 - 00:56:26.240

that, yeah, the worst thing about yourself, okay, yeah, I think I would be pressed you haven't dealt with it. That's why that's probably Yeah. I mean, if you start to deal with it, I think maybe by the time when we meet again, you you

00:56:26.240 - 00:56:39.980

know, I'd like to hear what answer you give me, how honest you address me the Frank Kofsky: question, I think I probably wouldn't be all that pressed. I think I know what the worst thing about me. I haven't

00:56:39.980 - 00:56:50.680

been thinking about it because I just haven't concerned haven't conceptualized it by saying, What's the worst thing about yourself, and now it's what I have said, what's the thing that's hanging you up the most, the thing that's preventing you

00:56:50.680 - 00:56:58.900

from functioning David Izenson.: the way you want? Okay, well, that's not the same thing, though Frank Kofsky: it is to me, because it's the thing that I'm

00:56:58.900 - 00:57:06.780

not David Izenson.: talking about yourself. It's the thing I dislike you most of myself, that's what I mean, yeah. That's because it's hanging you because yeah,

00:57:06.840 - 00:57:15.000

Frank Kofsky: prevents me from living the kind of life. It prevents me from exercising my own capabilities of the level that they should David Izenson.: be very curious to hear what it is my own

00:57:15.000 - 00:57:29.000

insecurities thing. I'm Frank Kofsky: looking at other people for emotional reassurance, necessity to find that amount of time rather than being able to generate it from within. That leads me into some

00:57:29.000 - 00:57:38.540

strange alleys in my way, David Izenson.: sure, and to me, would we be safe in saying it's to always to make yourself look good gets it comes down to it's an angry level. This is the thing. Yeah,

00:57:38.540 - 00:57:56.920

Frank Kofsky: that's the thing to have somebody from outside tell you you're not be able to stand on your own feet, right? David Izenson.: Well, this is the this is another serious thing that has to do with it. The thing is that when we talk

00:57:56.920 - 00:58:12.060

about the music, which we haven't really done talk more about personalities and the problems of what personalities are and contradictions, etc, etc, but the technical aspect of the music is an entirely different

00:58:13.620 - 00:58:33.200

feel, another subject to whole other problem. And knowing that, I know will consciously lie, but the fact that the word lie is used means a distortion unreality, and when you're dealing with

00:58:33.200 - 00:58:46.960

these things getting pretty close to religion in in its negative Frank Kofsky: aspects, a lot of yeah, there's a lot of self deception? Yes, self deception is always involuntary, right?

00:58:48.460 - 00:59:13.020

David Izenson.: Momentary is a could be that moment that long? I'm really trying hard, trying to think of things that that would I mean, I don't feel inclined toward, I don't know, dealing with or discussing or preaching or anything. Yeah,

00:59:13.080 - 00:59:23.840

fine. So I'm saying, What in the world am I, you know, going to talk about, Frank Kofsky: if there's nothing? You didn't say something, just to say something. Yeah, you go out and

00:59:23.840 - 00:59:32.720

have lunch. David Izenson.: Okay, maybe I'll have to pack up my instrument. Me too. Yeah, okay, well, I'll do that.