00:00:00.000 - 00:00:23.180

Unknown: A course that's kind of not. While they had them in their country, gunpowder in the Bible, some people say it doesn't have anything to do with jazz. What do you think about that? How so well we all know what

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blues is. Well, some of us do, and some of us don't say some of us do. A lot of people talking about the lay

00:00:33.980 - 00:00:47.380

people. Are you talking about the musicians? Well, I suppose you distinguish then. Well, when you say some of us, I think you're talking about you as a critic, the critics, actually, I wasn't being specific at all. Well, how do musicians think of

00:00:47.380 - 00:01:01.080

it? Then, do somebody, some people have written, for example, musicians don't want to talk about anything but the music. And these questions about 1619, gunpowder in the Bible and slavery have nothing to do with music, but it's all a plot of

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certain critics to introduce these questions. Do you see that as being true as it was for some critics, some some critics, for other critics, it seems to be a sort of plot.

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What about the musicians themselves are leaving aside the question of the critics, do musicians themselves talk about these things? That's what I want to know. Well, I can't say all musicians, but I can say there are some musicians around

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who voice their opinions quite strongly about what has happened, what's going to happen, and what's happening now. Do they see this related to the music in any way? Oh, of course, the cats, the cats who put

00:01:44.800 - 00:01:56.620

their opinions out there, see it quite clearly. Otherwise they wouldn't say it. Well, we all know that certain guys, like Archie Shep, for example, has certain opinions, and he sees it related to the music.

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But there are other people whose opinions aren't as well known. And I'm wondering about those people, the people who don't write letters or don't make speeches like Archie, do these people share? I shouldn't single him out, but I should say, do

00:02:10.560 - 00:02:29.360

they have opinions of the same nature that they don't write about and they don't make speeches about? Probably, so, you know, this is, you know, among musicians, I should say, sort of the unspoken word, primarily because music is

00:02:29.360 - 00:02:46.000

a biracial thing nowadays. You know what? I don't know, Tara, whatever you want to call it something. It's just the empathy between musicians. Don't call for us ranting and raving to each other about the racial because they all know, because

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it's understood so but to the lay audience, I shouldn't say to the audience, you know, you have to let them know what is, what's behind the formation of what's the formation of this

00:03:01.320 - 00:03:24.560

music? What it is, what went on socially? Yes, I've got this music. Do you have the feeling that some of the audience doesn't understand this? I have that's not even question, okay, the whole audience doesn't All

00:03:24.560 - 00:03:33.260

right, that's what I want to know. Then the critics who write and say that musicians only want to talk about the music and don't want to concern themselves with social matters, these critics

00:03:33.260 - 00:03:47.680

are actually misleading the public. Then, right, exactly right, exactly right, because you can't separate. You know, that's the big problem. You know, of saying, when you say musicians won't talk about the music and not you know what

00:03:47.680 - 00:03:59.320

happened? You know, blah, blah, blah, you can't separate, because what happened is the musical kind of New York is the music. In other words, if somebody goes out and gets hit over the head, or sees one of his friends get hit over the

00:03:59.320 - 00:04:12.480

head, or become a junkie, or something like that. This is going to reflect itself in his music, if he sees rats and roaches. Well, I don't know about that, but as far as you know, three small children being murdered in Birmingham church,

00:04:12.480 - 00:04:25.280

etc, etc, or the Harlem six, yeah, or mountain No, you know, not necessarily that, but they're uncounted, 1000s of deaths. You know, you know you never, never get the

00:04:25.280 - 00:04:37.400

newspapers, man, but you know, this is also the undercurrent of what's happening. You know, naturally you read this stuff in the newspaper, but, man, there's an undercurrent of murders and violence and suffering in this country that you have no idea.

00:04:37.640 - 00:04:46.720

And that's going on. It's unreported, usually because it was not going to be reported, because it happens to black people, right? And this comes out of the music,

00:04:47.380 - 00:05:05.940

yeah, this comes up in not out of the music, but in the music, in the music. Well, then if I use the phrase a new black music to describe the kind of. Music that young musicians of our age are playing, you would say that this

00:05:05.940 - 00:05:25.160

is an accurate phrase, yeah, all descriptions of what's happening when you say new black music. Then does that mean that one you're faced with the semantics of it. There's no such thing as new okay, because and new black, I'll swing with that,

00:05:25.160 - 00:05:44.980

because that's the color thing, naturally. And music, new music, nothing is played that hasn't been played. You also have to look at this thing spiritually too esthetically, when you say black music, does that mean that whites can't play it?

00:05:44.980 - 00:06:01.500

As some some white writers have interpreted the phrase black music, or new black music, to mean that the people who use it are saying that whites can't play the music. Is that the way you use a shred first draft? I don't say that. I said that. I

00:06:01.500 - 00:06:19.560

said some writers, yeah, but he is an opinion about what's happening with white musicians, and quote, the new black music, unquote, they're not black. They can't ever hope to be black. It's

00:06:19.800 - 00:06:38.240

impossible for them to express black, however, it's possible for them to express white emotion this. There's nothing wrong with that. That's just what you are individually. But black is black. Let's face it, you you

00:06:38.240 - 00:06:54.400

are as unique as you know from being white as I am black. You know, this is to say he cannot play music. He can play music, but he cannot play black music. Because when you say he is, when he is, he playing Black. No, he has to be black to play black

00:06:55.960 - 00:07:06.240

music. The reason I brought that up in the first place is not because I want to trap you, but because some of the people I'm referring to, although I'm not mentioning them by name, say that when that

00:07:06.240 - 00:07:17.160

phrase is used, the people who use it are racist. And I don't think that that's true. I don't think that you are a racist. That is true. I am a racist, well, not in the sense that they mean it. They are

00:07:17.520 - 00:07:30.260

in the sense that they mean it. I'm down and out racist. Oh yeah, I'm down and out racist. Well, what I'm for? Willie Mallea, they don't mean that. They don't mean just that they they talk

00:07:30.260 - 00:07:49.060

about black supremacists in the sense that's right, that's right, a black dictatorship, that's right. You know. Why can't I be a black idealist? Of course, you know? Why not? That's right, I'm black all the way down. Okay. Well,

00:07:49.060 - 00:08:03.120

does that mean, hope you edit that too well. I don't have to quote you by name. Yeah. Well, does that mean the way I'm still get, I still think that there's something that distinguishes the way you use the term racist in the way say

00:08:03.120 - 00:08:18.480

Morton Williams uses the term racism when he use that, he means to imply that you want to establish black people talk about black music, and by implication, one to annihilate all the white people. Now that would you say, that's why you're

00:08:18.480 - 00:08:34.580

using the phrase. How come you have an integrated quartet? How come I have because these people are very musical. I play with what kind of are you playing? Black Music? What about

00:08:34.580 - 00:08:47.860

them? They're playing whatever they are, okay. When you play together, when we play together, that's up to you to decide. We play together. I cannot speak for John Daniel or Stanley Cowell or Ronnie Johnson.

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I play whatever I music is me and history of me, etc. Do you think that whites who play with you, I have to make certain psychological adjustments. In other words, you think they have to play the music on your terms?

00:09:06.360 - 00:09:20.480

No, no, but they have to understand, yeah, well, that's that understanding. They don't have to play on their terms. You know, that's if you are my terms. No, all I ask is that you empathize, but it doesn't have to be a meeting of

00:09:20.540 - 00:09:34.700

the month. So in other words, a white musician may have to broaden his framework before he can play. Probably, so, yeah, probably. So let's face it, if you work in a cocktail gig, you know the

00:09:34.700 - 00:09:53.500

majority of your whatever you're playing. Yes, man, when you get ready to play, you know, what's happening? It's not gonna happen. You know, you just don't jump up from a cocktail gig and play, you know, quote, new music. There has to be some

00:09:53.560 - 00:10:09.660

understanding of the emotional power, etc, etc. So. These whites do have to make an adjustment in their thinking. I mean, I will say it make an adjustment, but they have to empathize. Yeah, I agree with you said earlier that no white

00:10:09.660 - 00:10:23.780

could play be a black, and that's absolutely true. No white person can be a black, because by the time you're five or six years old, you really have been shaped in certain ways. Are you already shaped by what's happened. What's already

00:10:23.780 - 00:10:37.400

happened? Yeah, okay, you're shaped into what you're going to be born into. But still, given that, still, it doesn't mean that it isn't possible for a white person not to change at all. I

00:10:37.400 - 00:10:47.080

mean, there's one thing between saying that White can't become a black and there's another thing, I'm guess, the word change in that context. You don't change.

00:10:47.320 - 00:11:03.780

You may grow, grow, yes, develop, because person who doesn't develop is mentally dead or spiritually dead. But there is also, you can use some of everything that's happening, so maybe he spiritually did for a reason. Oh, yeah, undoubtedly,

00:11:03.780 - 00:11:18.840

there's reasons. There's reasons for everything. He's still with me. Let me shift the subject a moment and ask you, do you think that it's accidental or coincidental that Malcolm X was a jazz lover and that he had several jazz positions among his

00:11:18.960 - 00:11:35.360

friends? Why don't you think it's an accident? You see his ideas, the things that he stood for when he was alive, is connected with the music in any way. Oh, man, the total thing that he was was the music is the music

00:11:35.840 - 00:11:48.040

has man, ocean and will always be. Well, if you say he's black and therefore he's connected with the music. Somebody not me. This is not my point of view. So let me make that clear before I get hit over that. Suppose somebody

00:11:48.040 - 00:12:04.980

said to you, well, Martin Luther King is also black. Do you see him as connected with the music? Okay, you know anything black that's happening is connected with music? By some whether it's a direct or indirect Association

00:12:04.980 - 00:12:12.360

that's connected with the music. Would you ever consider dedicating a tune to Malcolm, a composition to everything that I do is dedicated? Can

00:12:14.400 - 00:12:38.060

you think of any other figure who impresses you that same way, another figure who is as powerful as Roy Jones is in his own thing, Cecil Davies. He is as powerful as Roy Jones. Is you ever talked about this with other musicians?

00:12:38.060 - 00:12:54.160

Do they feel the same way about those? The three people you may say the same way, they feel strongly, strongly? Yeah, of course, nobody feels right. Here we go, critics and musicians problems. Well, I'm trying to keep as many of the critics

00:12:54.160 - 00:13:06.780

problems out of this. The reason I'm asking these questions, I know they seem simple minded to you and naive, but as you pointed out already, and it's my belief, too, the audience isn't really aware of the way musicians think and what goes

00:13:06.780 - 00:13:20.220

into the music. And I hope that these interviews will bring out some of these ideas, so I have to ask them questions. Do you realize that you know to get up to play is a hell of a thing? Let me state that first

00:13:20.220 - 00:13:34.580

of all, and you know, miles Davies, I think, I'm not sure, but I think miles Davies once said, I play when I have something to say, yeah, and to get up to play, man, is really hell of a thing,

00:13:34.580 - 00:13:47.020

because you have to be emotionally prepared for it. You're right. You're right. From my own experience lecturing and teaching, I know that if you're not, if you don't have your heart in it, it's very difficult,

00:13:47.740 - 00:13:59.980

the ship thing, coultering thing, anybody's thing, there has to be energy. What about the reaction of an audience to your music? Do you find that this varies according to the kind of,

00:13:59.980 - 00:14:12.360

Oh, yeah. The reaction is beautiful. I mean, any reaction is, what about no reaction? No reaction is it just as hip? Is somebody jumping up and stabbing me? You know, no

00:14:12.360 - 00:14:27.680

reaction is just as if to me. Is there a kind of reaction? You don't have any preferred kind of reaction. I expect them to do what they do. They better react what you

00:14:27.680 - 00:14:36.860

call a reaction. Then you don't have any particular kind of audience you like to play for. I mean, you would say that a black audience is no you don't care about playing for black audience or

00:14:36.860 - 00:14:49.120

white audience or a mixed audience. Yeah. Okay. Well, which what do you there are levels of audiences. There are black audiences. There are audiences and jazz rooms, audiences and

00:14:49.420 - 00:15:14.400

concerts, concert hall audiences and outdoor concerts. What's your favorite audience? Okay. You have to be the guinea pig. Here you have the first one to figure out. What am I? The first number one on the list that means you, you know you

00:15:14.400 - 00:15:29.480

anticipated me on most of the things I was going to ask you, what Come on, give me a good what about this? Then you think that artists have a responsibility to

00:15:29.480 - 00:15:40.300

educate their audience, one responsibility to educate themselves. What do they what do they do after they have educated themselves, and what do they do with their education? A What

00:15:40.780 - 00:15:53.080

about if the audience doesn't understand them? Unless the audience is hang up, is that it? What if the audience doesn't understand? Yeah, if the audience does understand, there's no problem. But if they don't

00:15:53.080 - 00:16:11.160

understand, that's still cool. You know they will. There's always growth. There's always grow. You cannot stay emotionally in the same spot. You got to be moving towards some end always go, Well,

00:16:11.160 - 00:16:20.100

I agree that there's always growth. That people don't always go in what we would, I would consider the right direction. For example, you get back in the relatives again,

00:16:20.100 - 00:16:33.920

right? Look, well, when I ask you Yeah, I agree that we can't pin those words down. Well, you know, doesn't necessarily take something like say, these guys who go out and buy guns on

00:16:34.040 - 00:16:51.160

what they call the Minute Man, that's a kind of growth too. Now, would you think you are as eager to see that kind of even if one of these guys takes up a gun at you, I sure have. I think he'd better know what he's doing. Well, I better see him

00:16:51.160 - 00:17:03.360

before he sees Yeah, exactly. Wouldn't you prefer to have this guy doing something else in the way of growth, though? I mean, wouldn't it be more constructive? Yeah, well, there's, that's what I'm so you, you do have things that are

00:17:03.360 - 00:17:16.800

better than not better, but some, if he really wants to do something, then go out and kill him another president. What about some musicians have argued that jazz is a music

00:17:16.800 - 00:17:32.960

opposed to all kinds of oppression. And I suppose you would agree with that, opposed to oppression, yeah. Opposed to oppression. Yeah. No. Do you think? What do you think

00:17:34.700 - 00:17:45.160

you put me in another one of those positions of how it's screaming from the black nationalist boy? Well, maybe I should say the jazz has grown out of a situation in which there is oppression, and because of that,

00:17:46.120 - 00:18:02.100

most certainly grown out. Well, what I'm getting at, let me short circuit the rest of this and that from that, these people who have said this have concluded that jazz is against the role of the United

00:18:02.100 - 00:18:12.420

States, say, in Vietnam, or against the role of the United States and Cuba. Do you see any tie up between jazz and those issues? And if so, do you see the same kind of tie up that these other people have?

00:18:13.020 - 00:18:30.620

Oh, yeah, you know, it is opposed. In a sense, it's far innocent, because jazz obviously is, you know, it's America, and America, obviously, it's supposed in the sense of the humane, the humane approach.

00:18:30.860 - 00:18:41.020

You mean jazz is on the side of humanity. Yeah, of course. And the United States, in these situations, is against the side of humanity, on the side of humanity. But you know this thing that they have

00:18:41.020 - 00:18:59.980

to grow out of, who, whoever is conducting this business of war, etc, etc, is the thing that I'll have to grow out of, which is the black nationalist thing or the Black Power thing, yeah. When it happens, when it happens that this country is cool enough

00:18:59.980 - 00:19:13.380

for me, right? Yeah. Could you go out of it as soon as Arlen Kees started destroying all this bullshit that's happening and facilitate somebody else's growth so they can facilitate, you know, my growth, that's okay. So that goes back to the

00:19:13.380 - 00:19:23.120

point you said earlier, where you said you were racist, and it seems to me really but you're not, because what you're saying is when the situation changes and when you no longer have to be a black nationalist and you won't be a black nationalist.

00:19:24.440 - 00:19:35.960

Okay, that's right, okay, yeah, that's the only one. I mean, I agree, seems to me what I would say, but I will be black. Yeah, of course, you'll be black and I'll be white. I mean, that's inevitable. And I

00:19:35.960 - 00:19:49.960

mean, in other words, we're gonna realize each other. We don't have, yeah, we don't have to be my thing, and I'm gonna respect school, and my thing is cool. You won't have to arm against me, though it's gonna be

00:19:49.960 - 00:20:06.480

armed all the way down. You know, the world destined to stay on. That's what the thing is all about. In a relative world, how can you possibly when there are rights and wrong say, No, we're talking about the case when they're the

00:20:06.480 - 00:20:18.180

rights the wrongs aren't there anymore. That's no such thing, no such thing. Then you're in another universe. You said that at this point when you no longer had to be a black nationalist. I was talking about

00:20:18.180 - 00:20:29.960

that world in which you weren't forced to be a black nationalist Well, be black. You'll be black. You cut the nationalism loose when people stop, you know, when they are not aggressive, however, you stay

00:20:29.960 - 00:20:42.880

armed. Okay, learn a lesson of deterrence. Yeah, that's what this country is into. I see what you're thinking. Can't disagree with you, yeah. And in other words, I'll respect you and your thing,

00:20:42.880 - 00:20:56.440

and I can blow up the world just like you can blow up the world. So let's be cool and do it. Do our thing. Have you talked to in general, if you talk with other musicians about, say, Vietnam, and if so, is there any kind of consensus

00:20:56.440 - 00:21:11.040

that emerges from your conversations? Man, we trying to do something else. Something else, just talking the sense of, yeah, we play. Does it ever bother you to say some of you might be drafted, or

00:21:11.040 - 00:21:25.640

your friends might be drafted, and that's going to bring the whole thing to doesn't even know it bother me that I might be drafted. I can't worry about my friends. You worry

00:21:25.640 - 00:21:43.120

about my friends on a musical level, whatever that whatever that is, I realize all those phrases are absurd. It's been a remark in a number of places that by by usually by white critics, were sometimes by black musicians that much of the new

00:21:43.180 - 00:21:59.680

music, pardon me, I have to call that much of the post 1960 music has been kind of collective improvisation, as opposed to the old standard procedure of the 50s, when one soloist would solo and the rhythm section would play behind him. Do you think

00:21:59.680 - 00:22:10.080

this is true, that collective improvisation is coming to be more important? Coming to be more important in the music? And do you think there's any particular reason or reasons that's not true? That's not true at all. They were doing

00:22:10.080 - 00:22:25.400

collective improvisation before the 60s. Well, I take an arbitrary date, let's say you say, all right, 1955 you think it's become more important after 1955 No, no. You don't think it's more important in the new music than in Bebop?

00:22:25.460 - 00:22:45.100

No, no, no, okay. You know because the new music is Bebop. There again, separation. How do you mean it's Bebop? It's bebop all the way down the line. We're using the same shit that bird used, same methods. Approach, same linear things,

00:22:45.100 - 00:23:00.040

the same harmonic things, the same tensions, the same releases, the same phrasing, the same everything. Now the mode of expression, in other words, the method of it, course, that varies the according to the individual. If it really

00:23:00.040 - 00:23:12.660

is still bebop, then why do you think there's been so much opposition on the part, mostly by writers, but also by, in some cases, even by musicians themselves, who you know, like I remember, for example, opposition? Yeah, you'll have to

00:23:12.780 - 00:23:29.540

cite a blindfold test by Sunny Stitt, in which Leonard feather played some of the new music for him. And I forget who it was, and he was very negative to it. And now suddenly, still, I can see why. I see why. Because one to get a musician

00:23:29.960 - 00:23:43.120

you know, to like, react to it, it has to be strong. And maybe son, instead, felt that it wasn't strong enough, so he just reacted to it negative. Well, the usual charges that are level have been things like no

00:23:43.120 - 00:23:55.840

form, no structure. They don't know how to well, whatever that is, man, you know, it's just, it's because of the weaknesses of the music. You know, there's home, but it's just not, it's not as obvious as it should be, it's not as strong as it should

00:23:55.840 - 00:24:09.480

be. It'll get that way. It's music, what you call new in that sense, it's new. You know, post 1960 music is an infant. Man, give it time to grow. Well, if it is an infant, then it seems to me that it is different from bebop,

00:24:09.480 - 00:24:23.960

because bebop, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's because, in other words, when you say different from bebop, you have, you would have to eliminate tonality, and, you know, a million other things, man, you would also eliminate what's called new

00:24:23.960 - 00:24:33.200

music. Are you sure it seems to me, look you can? Would you agree that you can talk about bebop and swing as two different styles of music? No, because bebop swings.

00:24:34.940 - 00:24:51.100

How about bebop and the music that Louis Armstrong played most collectively improvised Bebop. You can find Lou Harrison was one of the cats. No, I'm not trying to say that it isn't good music. What I'm

00:24:51.100 - 00:25:06.960

trying to say is, it seems to me, there's a clear difference in styles between music and music sounds, of course, because Lou Harrison is not miles Davies. Is not Dizzy Gillespie, it's not festival, it's not right? Well,

00:25:06.960 - 00:25:15.660

that's what I'm getting. That's it right there. That's why there's an individual thing. How I interpret what has happened. If you say that the new music is bebop and bebop a swing, and

00:25:15.660 - 00:25:25.640

swing is what was happening in the 20s, then, in essence, then we're going to throw out all the different names for different periods of jazz, and we're just gonna sure weld, okay,

00:25:29.420 - 00:25:47.560

leave me aside names. I use those names. I realize you know they're not 100% accurate, but it seems to me you have to have a starting place to talk about what you want to talk about. And it's convenient, just as an arbitrary approach, to

00:25:47.620 - 00:26:00.160

divide the thing up in the period, let the names of the things go and talk about the thing by period you see any change in the relative importance of collective improvisation, say, in the 50s and in the 60s.

00:26:00.160 - 00:26:17.280

Okay, good ensemble plan is always happening. It's the base, one of the basics of music. Good ensemble plan. Man, those cats, King Oliver and those cats. Man, I want some of the smokeless cats. And you can see it. Same thing happened with Donald and

00:26:17.280 - 00:26:32.240

Albert Island. Same thing. You know. You can see the same thing, even in smaller like Gary peacock and then Sonny Morris. You can see the same thing happening with Sonny Rollins and Gulch Grimes duet.

00:26:32.240 - 00:26:52.480

You can see the same thing happening with Sonny Rollins by himself. You know, which is going to Sonny Rollins? Things solo. Blah, blah. Ensemble. Man is an orchestra, you know, and an orchestra varies from one to 16,000 million pieces.

00:26:53.200 - 00:27:07.380

Okay, so then when bird and miles are playing one of their heads and say, like, now's the time in the 40s, then you call, you would call that collective improvisation the same, just the same as Don and Albert. Doesn't make any difference if the line

00:27:07.500 - 00:27:20.840

is written down or not. A spontaneous, collective improvisation between, between that and one that's written thematics. Of thematics, you know? Yeah, well, you the write them down or

00:27:20.840 - 00:27:37.100

you don't you know now improvising, improvised music is based on thematics. There has to be a thing you know, whether it's written, implied or what you know, if it's out there in our space, still has to be a thematic to next question, what

00:27:37.100 - 00:27:50.140

happened to third stream music? Albert Island, Cecil Tara? What happened Thursday? Yeah, but the particular former was taking in the late 50s, you

00:27:50.140 - 00:28:01.560

know, with big symphonic orchestras, one or two jazz musicians thrown in that thing. It seems there was a brief period of a fad for that. Why do you think it didn't catch on more? If you think it didn't, I think it didn't, for example,

00:28:01.560 - 00:28:11.520

what do you mean the well, the kinds of things that the modern jazz quartet used to do with a symphony orchestra, they called it third string, because, again, because what's happening now in this period is

00:28:11.520 - 00:28:28.220

not strong enough to be mated, you know, with a stronger Symphony conception. You know, when it happens, it'll happen. You know, that's the next thing in the cycle. You know what? Not the next, but learn the next thing. You got to have the funky

00:28:28.220 - 00:28:41.920

Avenue, and that's happening now, aren't you? Chef is one of his funky blues players around, and then then you have the when they get all the Tara techniques. Okay, I'll leave this top off

00:28:45.520 - 00:28:59.740

so we'll know where we're at. Turn it down. Now you want to go back and do that thing about African and Asian music again, that's what. Okay. Now, do you think

00:29:02.200 - 00:29:19.620

your black musicians. What do we decide about drawing on European sources? You said that? Well, we've already drawn on European sources inherently, because in pursuit of yourself, which is what you're doing, you

00:29:19.620 - 00:29:35.480

just broaden your scope. And then you draw in the world, you know, the whole thing, the stars, ie, Sun rode, etc, the planets, the moon, and then finally the universe. And then the master himself.

00:29:35.480 - 00:29:47.620

And do you draw on anything more than anything else? Well, if you go, if you believe in meta God, mega God, etc, etc, you know. Well, how about for people who don't, but for your religious

00:29:47.620 - 00:29:57.160

people, can I really talk about people who don't? You know, I don't know, honestly. Why not? I can't really talk about people. I can talk about myself.

00:29:58.780 - 00:30:07.020

What about what is. Road reaction to African and Asian music in recent relations of jazz, powerful. It's powerful. Do you think it has something to contribute? Oh,

00:30:07.020 - 00:30:24.980

man, it is. It doesn't contribute. It is the energy of African music. Is, you know, entwined in this music? Do you think the growth of black nationalist ideas in the United States encourages musicians to look here for their for part of

00:30:24.980 - 00:30:40.540

their inspiration to African and Asian music or to African music and the growth of black nationalist ideas in this country. I mean, 10 years ago, there was no black nationalist leader of the who had the same amount of notoriety and fame as

00:30:40.540 - 00:30:51.520

Malcolm X, and the fact that that change has taken place in the last 10 years, you think the same change has caused musicians to look to Africa for something. First of all, I disagree with the first part of it. I didn't say there were no leaders of

00:30:51.520 - 00:31:04.740

equal talent or capability. I said there weren't leaders who were as well known Well, see, that's not that's not us. That's the white Brahms. Yeah, I understand that men then, all right, so what? Well,

00:31:04.740 - 00:31:18.240

that's what I want to here's take black people on some isolated little backwoods village in Georgia. Now, if the white press decides to play up Malcolm X on the television and in the newspapers and the radio,

00:31:18.420 - 00:31:30.080

they are going to hear about what Malcolm has to say, even in this distorted form, and maybe their ideas are going to be changed. Well, what I want to know is, if this kind of process of changing people's ideas in a black nationalist direction also

00:31:30.080 - 00:31:44.920

plays a role in causing musicians to look elsewhere from their ideas like to know, because I'm pretty sure the people at the backwoods judge have churches, etc, etc, and they've been running down all

00:31:44.920 - 00:31:58.720

the time. Well, let's talk about musicians. Though. Do you think musicians view of themselves has been changed by black nationalism, by

00:32:00.040 - 00:32:23.900

black man will know. I mean, those guys are really down with it. Which guys the musicians? I won't elaborate on that one. What's your general impression about working conditions for

00:32:23.900 - 00:32:42.100

jazz musicians, my general impression is, and I hope you print it. It's shitty, because you need work. Work is essential in the formation of whatever you do.

00:32:42.100 - 00:32:57.400

You feel when you do work? Do you feel that you're treated as an artist the way an artist should be, for the most part, where you were no, not really, no, not really. We are proud of We're Not people with any product. Do you think

00:32:57.400 - 00:33:06.540

there's any difference here between the way they treat the younger musicians say, and older. No difference at all. No difference. What are they going through to say things that we went through

00:33:06.960 - 00:33:20.300

back in 20s. You know? What about black and versus white? Do you think white musicians get treated better than black musicians? Just in jazz alone? We'll say, really. Do you think both groups have the same

00:33:20.300 - 00:33:35.420

economic opportunities, certainly not. Now, I won't elaborate on that. That's understood, and the question is understood of them being economically equal.

00:33:35.420 - 00:33:46.720

It probably would help the people are going to read this if you give some examples, if you can think of it, just dig. It's what it is, the blacks equal to the whites economically, no. Well, a lot of people say, you

00:33:46.720 - 00:34:02.280

know, another question that you ask, Are we being treated? Not equally? No, we're not. No, we're not. We never, you know, right up to and including the jazz world, right up including to my bass player and a drummer that I used to work at, etc,

00:34:02.280 - 00:34:10.800

etc, even though it's your music, even though it's music, yeah, okay, no, I mean your music. I mean we're talking about black

00:34:10.800 - 00:34:19.620

music. Oh, we're talking about, yeah, okay, yeah. See, I don't think a lot of people really believe that, Charles, that's why I have to ask you us, you know, I can have to keep referring

00:34:19.620 - 00:34:32.120

them to the general mainstream, you know, thought whatever that is, general stream, but black and white and not treated equally anywhere. So it would be anywhere and under any circumstance, it would be very unusual. I mean, if that was so,

00:34:32.120 - 00:34:43.180

you wouldn't need to interview what about this? What do you what do you think might be the ways conditions could be improved for black and white for working music, traditions

00:34:43.180 - 00:34:57.280

will be improved. First of all, when all the whites, great majority of whites, jump up and kill off all of these seen our own leaders and let this country grow. So in other words, you don't see there's much chance of changing

00:34:57.280 - 00:35:09.600

things. Just within the world of music itself, there has to be a. Water kind of change. Music will change by, you know, his reaction. What's happening? What about Cecil Taylor? I noticed call for a boycott of

00:35:09.600 - 00:35:24.080

all white owned clubs, record companies. Do you think there's any hope in that direction? No, that's not any hope. Because the cats, you know, they gotta eat. Unfortunately, Whitey has the money. The white

00:35:24.080 - 00:35:33.680

radicals are up against the same kind of thing too. Because, I mean, many cases they're really not, of course, because no white person is ever in the same situation. But given the fact that the guy is a white he's

00:35:33.800 - 00:35:49.720

sometimes put in that same position, I know that I've been through that a lot. What about cooperatives? Musicians, cooperatives? Do you think that offers any hope? For examples? Gulch,

00:35:53.500 - 00:36:10.980

yeah, that's part of a solution. It's like musicians helping themselves, yeah, but that isn't the, you know, there has to be a variety of things happening. Really. It has to be social change, social growth, yeah,

00:36:10.980 - 00:36:23.420

development, yeah. Especially, seems to me like, for example, universities I was talking I gave last night, I pointed out how little use the university makes a jazz and yet, the university can't be isolated

00:36:23.420 - 00:36:35.060

from the rest of the society. University reflects what the people who control the society want it to reflect. The only way you're going to change that is by changing University. Is not the thing that reflects, it's the thing that produces. It

00:36:35.060 - 00:36:54.880

also produces, but it produces what it does produce because it's a mirror that gives birth, yeah, to the mind. What else is on your mind that I haven't covered? Yeah. Why is it that, you know, when a lot of

00:36:54.880 - 00:37:09.420

cats play monks tune well, you need they don't play the ninth in the bridge. You suppose? Why do you suppose? I don't know. I think it's Dodie. You mean they learned

00:37:09.540 - 00:37:27.200

mention of that in a downbeat blindfold test? That's people were, you know, whoever was playing the tune didn't play the names properly, man, and I was guilty of that myself, and that's another thing. I'm interpreting a man's music, a

00:37:27.200 - 00:37:43.720

man's music. This is why you have to have the empathy man. This is why necessarily have everything here we are calling ourselves musicians, and playing music wrong, playing somebody else's music. Well, that's cool, if you did it deliberately,

00:37:43.720 - 00:37:55.240

and if you did it accidentally, what you said, study? What if you mean by study? Oh, study. It's just what you have to Linley, dig into the history of what's happening, whatever you play. So you mean,

00:37:55.240 - 00:38:03.120

because people weren't well enough informed, they just left out the nights accidentally, or did they change them to something else, because they, I wouldn't say accidentally,

00:38:03.360 - 00:38:11.520

because they were just ignorant of the fact that the tune was in the bridge. There were names. They couldn't hear it. I don't know about here, when you didn't know when you

00:38:11.520 - 00:38:27.560

play, well, you need How do you play? Do you take it off the record, or do you buy a copy of the music and play? We'll put it this way. There are manuscripts around with it, and even they don't give the names, then there are copies of records

00:38:27.560 - 00:38:38.360

around around with so inaccurate, you know, descriptions of tune, I mean renditions of the tune, notated solo, for example.

00:38:39.920 - 00:38:48.520

Well, not only in no Davies alone, but the record itself, okay? Blah blah blah. You mean, you can't hear the name, right? You can hear it blah blah blah. Now, monk has a record out where he

00:38:48.520 - 00:39:07.380

plays the name, you know, in the bridge, and he has the musicians playing with them. That's monks music. Incidentally, for all musicians who haven't heard that record, I would suggest John Coltrane is on there. Yeah, and, and they played it. I mean, they

00:39:07.380 - 00:39:26.780

just didn't come up and onto the man. Still, they played what was happening to Charles and the acoustics, the acoustics in these various halls, really something should be done about that. See, we can't really do anything about that. We can

00:39:26.780 - 00:39:42.760

demand that. What is that we haven't got power running these various concert halls. Man, should, you know, be more forceful? Man, that's all like I say, when the wife decides to jump up and do something for himself, to get himself

00:39:42.760 - 00:40:00.900

together, then this country will grow. But right now, all the way down to the impresarios, man, you know, contempt right down the line. You said it's bullshit clubs without proper acoustics, etc, etc. Do. That's

00:40:00.900 - 00:40:16.740

because all they're interested in is the music. Now, say, if you were going to have the band to come to Pittsboro, you would have to see to it that these people had problems, you know, acoustics, pianos, etc, etc. You know, well, if you have contempt

00:40:16.800 - 00:40:25.220

for the musicians, and if you have contempt for what they're doing and you only regard what they're doing as a way of making yourself some money. Can you possibly be concerned about the

00:40:25.220 - 00:40:40.580

acoustics? I didn't I'm putting I'm saying, if you were the impresario, and the impresario thinks of the people that he's who make the music as some kind of inferior being niggers, to be blunt, right? Yeah. And if he doesn't understand too much

00:40:40.580 - 00:40:50.260

about the music, and doesn't care about the music, care about the music, but just cares about taking over profit that night, can you possibly expect that this man will be concerned about the acoustics? Well, first of all, let me go

00:40:50.260 - 00:40:57.160

all the way back to the beginning of that statement. First of all, niggas in a different you're using in a white context, yeah. I mean

00:40:57.580 - 00:41:10.440

the same context, yeah. But this is, the impresario is not going to be a black man. The impresario is going to be white when he says, but this is, this is the problem that you run across. Blah, blah, blah, like I

00:41:10.680 - 00:41:26.960

said, when the white decides to get himself together, it's not that we aren't together. You have to get yourself together, you know, and realize that this thing is not yours to possess. Except right now, the whites do possess. They possess the

00:41:26.960 - 00:41:35.120

recording companies, and they're the entrepreneurs and the promoters, and that's right, you know. But they don't possess the music, that's right, except in the sense of economics,

00:41:35.480 - 00:41:50.200

they can, they merchandise it. They don't own it, right, you know. And he refuses to. If I were critics, I wouldn't be interviewing musicians. They they're cool. I wouldn't later, with the musicians, go talk to these other cats and put

00:41:50.200 - 00:42:02.880

pressure on we. You're not doing us any good by talking to us. You know, to make people understand, go talk to people. Well, you see, I can't do anything more with the guy who promotes the concert

00:42:03.180 - 00:42:15.180

than you can, because all you have to do is shoot straight with the cat. Shave your beard, white shirt, tie, blah, blah, blah. It's gonna take some bending on your part to meet these guys. No,

00:42:15.240 - 00:42:28.940

because we can't, because we are what the cab is, Paul's news. Well, you see, what can I tell the guy? I can tell Look, you can't tell him anything. You have to show him. I How can I, if I say this, show the cat. You can't tell him nothing, it

00:42:28.940 - 00:42:40.420

seems. Show him what, what can you have to show him exactly what's happening and what, what's needed and what isn't he doesn't care what's needed that's under that, that's

00:42:40.420 - 00:42:52.600

already understood, but you have to show it. Well, let me put myself in that position of that promoter. Okay, okay, here's the concert I'm going to promote it, and I plan on making so much money out of it. Now, a guy comes to me and says, if you did

00:42:52.600 - 00:43:06.420

thus and so in the hall, if you want say more speakers or better speakers, or you had the hall acoustically prepared, more this concert would sound better. And I'd say, how much Brahm? To cost me? And says I was going to cost you for another $500 and I'd

00:43:06.420 - 00:43:18.480

say, well, let's see. What am I going to get out of doing this? And I think about it for about 10 seconds, and I wouldn't get a goddamn thing and money. And that's what this guy is, no cost you even more money if the artist showed up and decided

00:43:18.480 - 00:43:24.260

not to play, yeah, but I know the artist is gonna play, because I know that you don't know that. Well,

00:43:27.260 - 00:43:42.820

no, well, I'm counting on the fact you see it does come back. That's right. No, you can't separate yourself from that. Can't separate yourself from that, because what you're doing now is interviewing musicians, when you should be doing that

00:43:42.820 - 00:43:52.540

with you know, people who are in power structure, because we're not into that. Well, my problem, my assumption, is this, that the power structure cannot be changed. It is the power structure, and it's going to

00:43:52.540 - 00:44:01.740

hold on to the power nothing is perpetual. When you know that. I didn't say that they were perpetual. I just said that as long as they're there, they

00:44:01.740 - 00:44:14.220

can't be changed. Oh, yeah, what? I'll be changed. You think so? How? Yeah, by people like you. How can I go people who they respect? Well, let's take the ultimate example of, oh, but the power structure doesn't respect me, even without the

00:44:14.220 - 00:44:27.560

degree of that earth that are the power structure basically regards me as a radical. Of course, that means that they respect, you know, shave your beard you can talk to. If I took off the beard, you can talk to. Have you seen what Johnson has

00:44:27.560 - 00:44:36.980

said, for example, about the people who question him in Vietnam who say he's wrong. He calls them nervous Nellies. He calls them, you know, and I'm sure he calls them worse than that. So he doesn't respect these people, these people. He

00:44:36.980 - 00:44:51.400

feels that the mass of the people can be bluffed if he says, for example, he's going to bomb Hans. You see, there's only one thing that's going to show Johnson, and that is getting his ass knocked out of Vietnam, you go to prison. Yeah, that's okay.

00:44:54.220 - 00:45:02.160

And just the same way, there's only one thing that are going to show these promoters, and that's getting their ass knocked out. And this one. Be the musicians who will knock them out. It'll be the

00:45:02.160 - 00:45:12.240

audience to create the audience. You know, when you start with the audience, that's basically why I'm here, because my my assumption is that there are some people in the audience who would be on what I'll call the right side, and

00:45:12.240 - 00:45:22.220

you can question what I mean by right way. Obviously, I know that beyond the right side, if they knew what was happening, and I'm trying to run down, you're like the newspaper for the music,

00:45:22.220 - 00:45:31.400

right? So you should shoot the audience, and that's what I'm trying to do. That's what I'm trying to do, and that's what I tried to do in the thing, if I you know, I shouldn't be defending myself on an interview

00:45:31.400 - 00:45:42.820

like 1000s of people going to be reading articles of you, right? And that's why I tried to write some of the stuff that I have written so far, to try and let what I presume white. I don't think what black people have to be let know and what's happened,

00:45:42.820 - 00:45:55.900

but white people tell them where it is at today with the musicians, in hopes that enough of them will sympathize with the musicians and star Cabrillo, right? In that case, I have that responsibility, and that's what I'm trying to do with the series

00:45:55.900 - 00:46:08.460

of interviews, among other things, to show the audience where it's at. Yeah, well, that's a good idea. But in terms of, if I go, for example, the interview has to be strong enough to provoke them. Well, don't you not to just read it?

00:46:08.460 - 00:46:20.420

Well, let's go, you know, and that's that, yeah, well, I think that so far. Well, I mean, you know, you want to suggest anything else? No, all right. Well, so I've tried to make this strong, and I tried to put it in language that they

00:46:20.420 - 00:46:31.340

can understand and still make it relevant to the things that I think are important. First of all, you have to stop thinking of yourself critical. Well, I don't think of myself as a critic. I just think of myself somebody who's doing these you

00:46:31.340 - 00:46:42.280

think of me as a critic more than I think of I don't think because you don't deal with the audience, I don't see the audience. The audience is out there, the audience. No, we have to go out and get an

00:46:42.280 - 00:46:51.580

audience. You go out and get one. I mean, the audience is out there, but I never see them as individuals. They go up and get them. That's what we have to do. Yeah, I know. I know. You

00:46:51.580 - 00:47:04.080

know. Well, that's why I'm giving these two we have to literally build an audience from one person. Actually, you're right. A critic or a writer who's serious about this would go out and talk to people. I have tried to speak about the

00:47:04.080 - 00:47:13.560

thing in public, but not enough. That's right. You gotta be damning all the way, because if you give up, I haven't given up, I wouldn't be here. That's right. Well, what I said

00:47:13.560 - 00:47:25.760

about the power structure being publicly, what if I go? I don't want to name anybody in particular, because then it'll be like I'm attacking a person somebody particular, who Kees, you know, if you get sued, you just get sued. Okay, if I go to

00:47:25.760 - 00:47:42.220

Richard Bach of Pacific jazz record, which I once did about a John Henze, John handy is certainly not Albert Aylor. I mean, he's not the John handy, right? Okay. I mean, he, in my opinion, John Henze very easy to listen to a musician. They were

00:47:42.220 - 00:47:54.220

very easy to understand musicians, not a guy who gives you tremendous intellectual problems when he hears music. And I went, I asked Bach about doing a record with him, and I asked about other people too, and I asked other ANR men. And

00:47:54.220 - 00:48:05.580

I, when I talk to these people, it's obvious that the guiding consideration for them is whether the thing is going to make whether they think it's going to make any money or not. And that's the way these guys are always going to realize.

00:48:07.200 - 00:48:19.080

Unfortunately, I can't guarantee them, just as much as anybody else, that's your easier. That's the promoter back in the concert hall. If I go to him and tell him that to improve how you show him that it'll make money I will

00:48:19.080 - 00:48:28.340

make. Linley, first of all, you go back to the concert hall environment. Show them packed house. You know, there is a market for this music.

00:48:28.520 - 00:48:39.140

Show any number of packed houses. Sure if the pack house is there, but if the pack house is there with the bad acoustics, and with a good acoustics, he'll do it with a bad Of course, you show him how he'll

00:48:39.140 - 00:48:53.320

lose money. Maybe the answer is some kind of cooperative coalition between musicians and the people of the industry, no, and people who love the music and people in the industry. You know, because the people of the industry are the people who

00:48:53.560 - 00:49:01.960

control it. That's right, but that's why you can't include them in the coalition. Oh yes, you can. Oh yes, you can't really leave them out, man, because they you can't not live what I mean?

00:49:01.960 - 00:49:13.020

I'm not saying leave them out, but you put the president of you put the president of General Motors in the United Auto Workers Union. Did they bring them in front of the Senate, whatever that is

00:49:13.020 - 00:49:24.620

committee for? Did they bring him in front of that question? The question is, when workers get together to protect their interests, do they include the president of General Motors, labor and men? Motors, labor and management? That's right, they

00:49:24.620 - 00:49:34.280

negotiate with him separately. So if musicians in the audience were to get together to protect the interests of musicians, they wouldn't do it by including the guys who are sitting on top of the musicians. No, no, no. Then you saying

00:49:34.280 - 00:49:45.460

include the power structure. But in what word that way, I'm saying that you have to organize the people who love the music to deal with the power structure as they love the music. I would assume there are some people in the

00:49:45.460 - 00:49:51.880

power structure who love the music, yes. But as soon as they get in the power structure, they love the prophets more. That's the way,

00:49:52.600 - 00:50:02.460

you know. But their interests are, in many cases, opposed to your interests. That's cool, including, anyway, okay, no, and discuss it like people should. And try to wear something out. No, you won't get

00:50:03.180 - 00:50:11.820

the super hip studio to play in, but you will be able to get some facilities to make concert better, make the program. It seems to me that just discussions will not change anything, but you

00:50:11.820 - 00:50:23.960

actually have to threaten the power structure with retaliation, in some cases, right in not in our Kees, not as far as black music. That's right, that's why I said has to be directly.

00:50:25.040 - 00:50:38.360

No, no, we've already had that happen. Unions, I don't mean unions, because unions are not same thing, same thing. All Black constructions, artists, artists, union work, man, because we haven't got

00:50:38.360 - 00:50:53.620

anything you know with, you know what? Some you know, depending on going on strike and a that doesn't hurt to him, so we won't have any music. They don't want it anyway, it has to be strictly a white to white

00:50:53.620 - 00:51:07.860

confrontation, not a black to west. Doesn't have anything to do with black to white, because we are, we're giving the thing. Well, suppose, I guess. How would you suggest that you know, what could whites say to say the president of Blue Note records

00:51:07.860 - 00:51:18.480

that they should pay their artists more. They would listen to whites. What they would listen to is of every artist who recorded for blue note said, we're not going to record for you until you agree to pay us more.

00:51:21.360 - 00:51:31.340

What the White should do then, in that particular case, is to pick it blue knows and shut him down his facilities down for a while. Can't do anybody

00:51:32.180 - 00:51:45.880

can be picketed. I didn't take couldn't pick it. I just said, you know, I didn't say the picket for the people are interested to pick it themselves, but the audiences who are led by

00:51:45.880 - 00:51:58.360

critics, etc, and newspapers, blah, blah, blah, closed down in facilities. That's Hans. I think you can really make a case of that with nightclubs, because pick a line in front of a night can be damaging to the

00:51:58.360 - 00:52:12.120

nightclub. In other words, you have to invest money to make the thing work. Kind of surprising. Nobody really has thought about doing that up till now. Promise, it's probably but it's probably thought of by whoever the artist is, and he can't do that. Don't

00:52:12.120 - 00:52:24.620

you think if artists were better organized, that they could at least put these ideas in front of the public, and the public could do something about it? No, not better organized. Probably been talking up to this and talking about this to the public

00:52:24.920 - 00:52:34.760

long time. You know, you know, this is nothing new with the artist. He's been doing it a long time. You know, you can't do it all by himself, because he's he's

00:52:34.760 - 00:52:52.780

doing he's been responsible for pushing the audience to do, do certain things and then getting his thing together. And you can't do it all. He doesn't have that kind of power. He spreads himself too fast. That's why, right now, it needs to be a

00:52:52.780 - 00:53:08.040

white to white confrontation in terms of this power structure. You need to get up and choke this country off economically, you know, not black to white, because all they have to do is cut blacks and put them in concentrate jails. Concentrate

00:53:08.040 - 00:53:24.800

anyway, you know, starve them all. They'll kill them all. Yeah, sure, but it should be a, you know, a case of power hurting itself. That's that. And then you'll see some real action, like, I say kill the president. You see some action

00:53:25.100 - 00:53:41.260

to kill quite a few people. In that case, I think, to me, you're gonna get much of improvement. Well, people like Ohta Lew think you really wanted to grow up whites against the past. Sure do. Yeah, sure do. That's not gonna ride on our

00:53:41.260 - 00:53:54.280

heads, into the thing. To this ideal situation, you're gonna have to do some some things. Your whites are gonna have to say, That's right. They're gonna have to act themselves, not come in on a situation involving all blacks and let it be liberal.

00:53:54.280 - 00:54:10.020

No, you know it has to be white, white, confrontation and violent white, yeah, sitting around talking about, you know, the intellectual pursuits of the economic problems of you, none of that bullshit of the blacks, no, get out there and shoot

00:54:10.020 - 00:54:19.560

somebody, if you have to. Yeah, Johnson's shown that he doesn't shrink back from violence. So obviously, No, he doesn't swing back from Vietnam, from this

00:54:19.560 - 00:54:32.300

violence, white the white violence he'll swing back from. Don't you think he'd be just as vicious? No, I don't think he'd be just as vicious, because, see, you got too many writers in the armies and neighbors to contend with, and they all will

00:54:32.300 - 00:54:45.520

take all, in other words, create situation of revolution. Yeah. Well, sure, that's what you're trying to do. All you do is look out there. If that was, oh, he wouldn't be

00:54:45.520 - 00:54:54.640

talking to me in this thing, yeah. And it seems to me that the whites were buying the guns in the Minutemen, and that's right, when you people should be buying the gun. I had a conversation like this with

00:54:54.640 - 00:55:04.020

Gaston Neil, who's organizing a Black Arts Theater in Washington, DC, and he said, Why aren't you? Why the whites aren't. Nice, nice. And they are organized. That's right. Now, it should be some

00:55:04.020 - 00:55:13.380

other liberal militant organization, liberal white, of white there are, but unfortunately, they don't have leftist militant organizations around. But always,

00:55:13.500 - 00:55:28.760

there are no whites around who are willing. Mr. Right, yeah. What an anarchist society. Yes. And it's not that we have glasses. There's no question black people are much more together than white people

00:55:29.060 - 00:55:41.500

are, because black people have an idea of what the reality and situation is, whereas most white people are totally brainwashed about it. I know that because I teach upper middle class white college youth and they're nobody more brainwashing.

00:55:41.560 - 00:55:55.180

You ought to be putting it on there. I am putting it on them, but it goes go out and kill your president of cop that won't show easy. Mort got Tony Institute ready to take it on that level from you.

00:55:55.180 - 00:56:09.960

They're ready for you, right? Admission, at a certain point you're not admit no, because I don't agree with you. You see, I've come on, and where they are now, the stronger I am, the more repelled they are by the whole

00:56:09.960 - 00:56:20.720

thing. There's so many things that I say that they don't want to believe that if I come on strong, it just means that they turn on. You want to admit it, though, that's right.

00:56:28.220 - 00:56:44.860

Don't be a critic. Be a bird. Well, I've never, I never liked that label critic. You know what else? I think that's it. So it.

00:56:46.480 - 00:57:00.160

Yeah, well, you can't, please learn most that really bother you, doesn't it? Because you made that mistake yourself. Made me stronger. I made a mistake. Now I can look at that

00:57:00.160 - 00:57:09.900

tune and play the tune, and then play whatever I was playing, and be a lot stronger with the knowledge of the tune itself. You got to study it, but the first time you read that, how did you

00:57:09.900 - 00:57:21.920

feel? I felt like an asshole. Well, I feel like you're right. That's where we learn. I mean, that's where I learned by making mistakes. Now, don't you think that the White has made enough mistakes,

00:57:21.920 - 00:57:31.460

it's time for him to start clearing this. I wouldn't stand for it if I was you. I really wouldn't. In some ways, it's very discouraging to be white now, because

00:57:31.820 - 00:57:42.980

I wouldn't stand for it. I really wouldn't stand if I'd go out and do something about it. You know, I really would. I wouldn't stand for it. I'm trying, Charles. I'm fine do something about him. I

00:57:42.980 - 00:58:00.780

to be hard because so it means that you're gonna have to just be strong and jump right out there for us and turn the tide, man, because we're not gonna turn the tide. Yeah, you create conditions to turn the tide, but the tide has to be turned by

00:58:00.780 - 00:58:11.340

majority. That's huge. And why should you guys? Why should get your ass shut off to save me? I mean, you know, let's face it, that's right, you Castle ride right in on top of our shoulders. Here we are, the

00:58:11.340 - 00:58:23.960

New Black, blah, blah, quote, unquote labels and all. And on the left, the liberal way, who hasn't done anything, calling me a liberal? Well, you know, when you put yourself in these, these situations, that's what you

00:58:24.020 - 00:58:34.280

are. You know, couldn't I at least be a radical? No, a radical is a little liberal. Okay, yeah, I guess maybe from your perspective, because he isn't really out there doing anything

00:58:34.280 - 00:58:47.620

but Wolf. And I don't want nobody to sell no wolf tickets. I want somebody to go out there and do it and do it hard, doing it just as hard as I'm doing it up on the stand, or just as hard as Coltrane has done it on the stand, or just as hard as Ronald

00:58:47.620 - 00:59:01.080

has been doing it with himself, and he's been doing it hard. We've been doing it. How come you cats don't do it? You know, won't you believe it's a tough problem, and it takes no excuses at all. Like I said, I wouldn't take it. Go out

00:59:01.080 - 00:59:20.900

and kill upon them, cats, man, you know. Know what murder is all about, because that's what they've been doing now, you know. So go out and murder you somebody you know, and feel that thing. And Vietnamese feel it. I know I'm here. We won't get back

00:59:20.900 - 00:59:30.560

off of that. You feel it, go out there and murder somebody. Know what it is to kill a person you know, you know, I thought it would do any good. I would be if you killed

00:59:30.560 - 00:59:46.000

Johnson, we will pick specific why should we murder? Kill you somebody you know. Then get you a whole bunch of people and kill a whole bunch of people. That's it. When you do that about death, in the sense of dying, please. You know

00:59:46.000 - 01:00:02.820

when I say kill, I mean, you know, growth, that's what you say. If I do it necessary to kill a person to facilitate growth, get rid of if I do it, it's pointless if 100,000 of me. No, if you're doing it, if. Is a contributing fact factor to

01:00:02.820 - 01:00:22.400

that. You know, don't say it's pointless because then you are making excuses not to do it. No, I say it's not pointless. If 100,000 of us do, it's not pointless if the smallest utterance helps. That's what we can all say. If I wore one man

01:00:22.400 - 01:00:37.760

playing on that's pointless, you know? Well, it's always one man playing. Then you get your ensemble. Nothing strong enough in your thing. Get you that's really where it should be yesterday, with white people, that's where it's got to

01:00:37.760 - 01:00:50.860

be getting the ensemble we've been doing it since they brought us over. We've been doing it. We've been doing it in the cotton fields, in the churches, in the on the farms,

01:00:53.260 - 01:01:14.580

building highway, everything that we do, we do it. Man, strong, you know, we don't fall back faggot out of nothing, man, we just do it strong. We hate strong. We're strongly compassionate, blah, blah, blah. But see, the thing is, it's not

01:01:14.580 - 01:01:30.380

that we are not equal, equal to them. They are not equal to us. You know, what's this bullshit about us not being equal? Niggas in a derogative so what do you mean shit Whitey in derogatives?

01:01:33.860 - 01:01:43.120

We've been doing black people are so far ahead of white people rather than white people. That's right. So we should be interviewing me. Should be interviewing whole

01:01:43.120 - 01:01:55.060

gang of whites, man, you know, trying to get them together. Because I'm together. I know what all this. I don't have to be here. I don't have to be liberal. I don't have to be radical. I ain't just be black.

01:01:55.120 - 01:02:04.200

I don't have to interview you to get you together. I'm trying to interview you to get those whites together. That's whites have to get white together, not blacks get whites together.

01:02:04.200 - 01:02:18.360

Some whites are hip to wear that through the real thing, no use of music as the primary thing. But behind the scenes that the real thing, I'm not using

01:02:18.720 - 01:02:35.060

music. What I'm saying is music to make you aware of more things that made me aware of more things. If, if it does. Man, then you really got some getting together to do. You really got some getting together to do. If it took music

01:02:35.060 - 01:02:45.100

to provoke you into realizing what is happening. Man, you got some getting together to do. Whites can grow up and they can evade reality every day because they never

01:02:45.100 - 01:02:57.340

have to come. They don't evade reality at all, not really, not really. Oh yes, they do. No no, they don't evade it. You can't evade reality. Evade aspects of reality.

01:02:57.460 - 01:03:08.700

Look, they can't Avenue. You can't evade anything. That's a bad word when I say to my students that we're doing in Vietnam is liquidating a people. We're doing genocide like that we did

01:03:08.700 - 01:03:20.780

against the Indians and bullshit, you crazy. We're fighting the liberal water for the mountain. I do. But are they? Are they doing their best to evade the

01:03:20.780 - 01:03:30.860

reality. They are genociding those people. But aren't they doing their best to evade that reality? That's what that's right, that's because you're not putting it out there strong enough on the stick weapon that's not evading

01:03:30.860 - 01:03:40.100

reality, that's not being strong enough. And if I'm not strong enough, they're going to be successful in evading it. No, no, they have nothing to be paid. You know, this is being

01:03:40.100 - 01:03:51.160

himself, it's not invading reality. They hung up on the semantic, of course, because that's part of it. That's part of language. The weakest thing that White has is language. He

01:03:51.280 - 01:04:05.460

fucked his language up. We got our way this pretty strong. Listen to the music. I'll do it with you on any level, but first of all, you got to do it with yourself.

01:04:05.460 - 01:04:15.840

Get it try to get it together with me. I'm not trying to get it together with you. My original assumption is that you had it together to begin with, or else

01:04:15.840 - 01:04:25.580

I wouldn't be here interviewing us. That I want that Well, I want to show Whitey what it looks like to see somebody who has it together, and maybe he can get it together. Get it together by example. There's nothing wrong with saying that

01:04:25.760 - 01:04:39.920

whites need, but don't show them black who has together. Now, the same thing, same thing you said about your cost. So liquidating the Vietnamese, and they said,

01:04:40.100 - 01:05:01.320

Oh, man, that ain't happening. What the black people really respect Vietnamese too. You know, by the same token, don't show them that. Show them whites who grew or getting it together through white such as who I don't know. I don't know Anyway,

01:05:01.680 - 01:05:17.280

John St Clair, who was trying to get it together, wasn't al pens in there, who's trying to get it here. John Dana, who's trying to get together. But of course, they artists. Don't show them artists, because men ain't panic. Artists, know, show them

01:05:17.280 - 01:05:27.860

just a common, ordinary person who's trying to get it together, your wife, you got to put it out there strong enough on the day, because if you can,

01:05:29.540 - 01:05:48.580

yeah, they won't evade. They just don't even recognize what's happening. They're much more interested, though, in artists, my wife, my wife or myself. We know Weldon back, yeah, but

01:05:48.580 - 01:05:58.060

nobody wants to hear about her. She's backbone. Hell, the slaves were the backbone. Nobody wanted to hear about the slaves either. They were just there. So why should you talk about blacks

01:05:58.060 - 01:06:13.620

now? Because that's changed just a little bit. Oh, come on. Who do you think buys down me and who reads those stories? I don't know. Mostly musicians. No, Davies tell 60,000 copies every two weeks. I don't think there's 60,000 jazz

01:06:13.620 - 01:06:24.500

musicians who buy them. The downby Paul had 200 musicians in and I doubt they're, you know, very many more than that. The thing is, it doesn't do any good, because now Beatrice doesn't really promote provoke them. I agree, that's

01:06:24.500 - 01:06:31.820

because they keep showing them black. They should be showing them the ways. I'm afraid what would happen to me. They showed them the whites. They show them Don Ellis and

01:06:38.900 - 01:06:51.880

Don Ellis, such a bold review and tan in music about it like this, can get shot being liberal. Well, that's you see. You'll never Dodie. You'll

01:06:51.880 - 01:07:05.340

never see that from Don Ellis, because Don Ellis will never get you know who's done Ellis, you're going to shoot No, I really got away from that after that, and let him do it himself. Get it together. Let him stay out on

01:07:05.340 - 01:07:26.660

the West Coast. Do it. He's out there because he's a racist guy. That's cool. Showing that he's a racist guy. I can be as racist as he is. He threatens me. I threaten him. That's that now you threaten. And then I'm coming. I'll come on in. We do

01:07:26.660 - 01:07:40.900

it together. Probably come down on him as hard as you can. Every time he opens his mouth, picks up his horn. Quit Line. Quit trying to innovate.

01:07:42.760 - 01:07:57.040

Let's get hung up on label and ain't got shit to do with what we're trying to do, because he's not directed to me or Don Ellis.

01:07:57.220 - 01:08:11.400

That's directed to anybody who misunderstand coal training, who talks about coal train on the level of Tara techniques, etc, especially a man who was supposedly a musician quote jazz.

01:08:14.820 - 01:08:32.000

Well, yeah, I guess I said, How is the cost of doing the drone? Are you putting me? Oh, you got, yeah, look this thing here. It runs on batteries. I've got four batteries. Okay, I'll plug it in there and do that way. We'll

01:08:32.000 - 01:08:51.100

save the battery. How much does it cost to go to the drone to go see John Coltrane? It costs three hours? Well, the guy goes with his date. How much is it gonna cost him? Six, you know, probably about $15 and how many? How many people are gonna go pay

01:08:51.100 - 01:09:01.080

$15 to go see me at the drone if I said I'm giving a speech tonight, you know, how many people I had there that last night? Why should we worry about that? How many people can you get,

01:09:01.080 - 01:09:11.640

collectively to read, fewer than it'll buy, the fewer That'll buy. John Coltrane, record fewer than by Archie Shepherd. Doesn't really matter. You just

01:09:12.780 - 01:09:23.240

told me that more people are more interested what I had to say, right? You're crazy. No, you got a better audience that I have you just last round. Let's put it out

01:09:23.720 - 01:09:38.960

there too. How you gonna prove that? Oh, look at it. Well, I'm looking at, you know, there are more opinions about the avant garde than the avant garde has itself, yeah, but it's all because of the critics thing, you know, put that out

01:09:38.960 - 01:09:49.660

there. We haven't. We don't talk to people about, listen, don't talk about that shit to people. I mean that. But look, if it does really true, then somebody's missing the chance to make a fortune by putting out a

01:09:49.660 - 01:10:02.280

magazine that has nothing, no interviews with musicians. It just has interviews with so called critics. That's right, everybody in jazz, they. Said he's that he could be just as good a critic

01:10:02.280 - 01:10:17.460

as any other critic, any Hans, holy everybody. I mean, every person who follows the music but doesn't play, every lay person, they all think that they're just as good a critic. Well, in many cases the two guests

01:10:17.460 - 01:10:34.040

control. I mean, you say I control? I haven't controlled. I mean, I haven't made. Well, you should be right now coming down on Pauline Ravelli man together, get the editorial with magazine

01:10:34.040 - 01:10:47.680

straight, etc. I you want to see my I'll let you see my correspondence with Pauline. The belly, it's this thick. Let me see your taste with you and Pauline, interviewing music,

01:10:47.680 - 01:11:00.340

the tapes. What tapes? If you ever review Paulina? I interview Paulina Valley because she silly. I have to write her letters because she lives New York and I live in Pittsburgh, and I've written her

01:11:00.340 - 01:11:15.660

letter after letter. And I'm not, you know, I can show you them don't do this and don't do that, and don't make a goddamn know. What you should do now is go get an interview and put an

01:11:15.720 - 01:11:38.840

interview in the book. What? Let her bust herself. I have that's not a bad letter. Is only one with Polymer Valley, and I thought about doing that now, that's quit writing for the magazine. But if I quit writing for the magazine, that means I

01:11:38.840 - 01:11:54.580

quit publishing, because that's the only magazine right now. No. Where else can I publish downbeat? Don't be serious. Sounds it, huh? Sounds like I wouldn't follow that magazine that you send manuscripts,

01:11:54.580 - 01:12:07.860

yeah, of course I agree, but I want somebody to read it. How many people do we change? Change? I don't know, but a pretty good audience, I'd be surprised. We're over 2000 that's cool. That's pretty good,

01:12:07.860 - 01:12:18.720

yeah. But jazz has a readership about 30,000 that's cool, you know. And change, jazz is so many years old, changes while a year old, yeah? But the point is, if I have something, I think it's

01:12:18.720 - 01:12:31.280

important to say is, you seem to think, every outlet that you can come across, the small magazines, Life magazine, you can just see mothers, mothers, blues, etc, etc, you know, put them in all of the magazine that

01:12:31.280 - 01:12:46.060

you get access to. You know, you don't write specifically for a jazz magazine. And an audience is anybody, yeah, so at the time I started writing, it was jazz magazine or nothing, and it still is, a matter of fact, change magazine.

01:12:46.060 - 01:12:58.420

I wrote to John, let's get this on the table. I wrote to Jonathan Clara, said, anything I can do for the magazine. And John running back and say, well, here's a copy. And I wanted to help out change,

01:12:59.980 - 01:13:13.200

because I know they can. Could be a tremendously valuable thing to have. It could be you can deal with no no. Before I even the seen a copy, I thought it could be, oh, past

01:13:13.200 - 01:13:23.600

tense. And after I saw it, I still thought it could be, and I still think it can be, well, you know, maybe I'm not him enough. For John,

01:13:24.800 - 01:13:40.660

but me, if you got scuffle, get it together. Yes, you do. That's not it. Okay, yeah, that's right. I mean, I don't want to scuffle with John because I regard Johannes standing for the same thing. So

01:13:40.660 - 01:13:55.240

I don't want to come up with an ally, right? So you take your allies. What you do? Fight Like I say, you get your Bumble and you go out there and fight that shit. That's that. That's what it's all about. Be sure you put all

01:13:55.240 - 01:14:08.160

of this because you didn't really interview me. You just put yourself out there. Where should we publish this? Wherever they'll let we do you. How many small and magazine

01:14:08.160 - 01:14:21.560

editors do you know? All you got to do is write out do here's a manuscript, Polly rodeo. We'll see if she'll publish it. Oh, what's that? That's just another check. Send it to Ron Capitola, who prints a magazine. Senator Robin angle, Prince of man, send

01:14:21.560 - 01:14:37.580

it out to California. See if you can get somebody to print some out there. Chicago has some cats printed there. So Paris, Paris has some cats printed there. You know, send your magazine. Send your printer. That's now against very thing. That's one few valid

01:14:37.580 - 01:14:52.900

things that he said to John man, send be published by anybody. I think it was getting, well, I can't hold with that. Why not? Because your prejudice. All right, go ahead. Yeah, I'm prejudiced

01:14:52.900 - 01:15:04.800

against magazines that are hard to find nobody. They will be. Found by somebody. You're going to Detroit. Why are you going to New York? Why am I

01:15:04.800 - 01:15:13.980

going here? Why'd you ask me about because I think the reason you're going to New York is to find a bigger audience. No, not really, what?

01:15:15.540 - 01:15:28.520

Not primarily, not a big audience. I'm not about a big audience. You know? Why did you know? Why can't record? Why does? Well, they record for the money too, that's

01:15:28.520 - 01:15:42.160

right, but they also record with a lot of different recording companies, better believers, yeah, but wait, wait, no, no, Am I not right about that? Most artists use horses, but if they have their choice, they might rather record for a

01:15:42.160 - 01:15:57.040

company that's going to do more from course, you would much rather the principal, I mean, for Life magazine or down Beatrice, bigger. But in the meanwhile, what do you do? Okay, small magazine. I know what,

01:15:57.100 - 01:16:12.480

who's manuscript of it's a choice between a small magazine and nothing you write. But if it's a choice between a small one and a big one, I can do in the good ones, you don't have a choice between a

01:16:12.480 - 01:16:25.640

smaller big one. Is variety, all right, a small one of the smaller ones, whatever that means. Well, it means jazz versus change. Jazz is small, but change is smaller, yeah, well, undoubtedly, you got

01:16:25.640 - 01:16:43.060

access to both of them, yeah. Okay, well, I'm not too sure about it, but that's another point. I mean, if you write like you live in the music, whether she understands it or not. Oh

01:16:43.060 - 01:17:00.300

yeah, she's afraid of me. Now, aren't you? Pauline, better be you. Better be afraid of she's not jealous. You better be afraid. You guys. Well, you guys get it together, because I really wouldn't stand for what the reputation that these guys

01:17:00.300 - 01:17:16.680

they gave it to you. Didn't earn it. They gave it. You just been the most which cats do you mean, gave it to me, the leaders of your country? Oh, yeah, cultural, standard, social and I

01:17:19.500 - 01:17:33.680

wouldn't take that shit. I don't like it. We have to get us together. You know, you're right, not me. I can't get you together. We already got our thing socially.

01:17:33.680 - 01:17:50.440

Now we left that. You brought us away from that. You brought us into your thing. And it's your thing that you ain't got together. That's that. But that thing is so I hope you get your thing together, not my thing. She can't get nothing is already

01:17:50.440 - 01:18:01.860

got my lineage and everything. Man, the whole business about royalty and politics and all that bullshit. Man, we've already been through all that. This is just another development in our in our history,

01:18:04.680 - 01:18:24.500

and you brought us to your thing. So you get your thing together. We know what. We know that we're descendants of Africans and Weldon, who has been done everything. So we're not hung up over going to the

01:18:24.560 - 01:18:36.140

moon, because they go to the moon another way. So get the thing together. Get your thing while you are your thing, not the black thing. You can't get the black thing. Well,

01:18:36.140 - 01:18:40.960

I know the blacks will get the black thing. That's it. I.