00:00:01.920 - 00:00:30.740

Unknown: You already stereotypes. Man, so, yeah, I always thought she was New York times already. You understand what that conversation

00:00:36.260 - 00:00:52.420

was doing. RJ, you understand what that is? That's just simple. And it's not only civil envy. It is a thing which will destroy us if we do not deal with it,

00:00:54.460 - 00:01:10.200

see, because there's a basis to it, and there's a reason for it, and it's correct, right? Because, as a writer who have no access to publications, may have to use

00:01:10.740 - 00:01:19.740

places like that. They have rather good places to be in. Lot of people we do work and so that's a commercial thing. You got to do that, because we live in this kind of stuff.

00:01:21.000 - 00:01:45.340

You do not good. That's, that's the thing. No, not because he can't, right, but because he's not Archie chef, or he's not, at that point you're the enemy Davies.

00:01:54.280 - 00:02:21.260

That must be David Lawrence Anderson, right? I mean David, you know Eugene Redmond. We're both on the same faculty, right? Yeah, house.

00:02:31.760 - 00:03:00.180

But you know, like, if you've been reading, I'm there aren't even any movie actresses anymore. You came a generation. Do it

00:03:02.940 - 00:03:29.840

like in black. I asked if she'd been to Africa. I've been to black Africa. She said, what other part Africa is there other than black

00:03:30.920 - 00:03:47.860

Africa? You never heard a white cat say, you ever said it's Oh, no, you hear cat from Africa saying they're white.

00:03:49.300 - 00:04:38.540

Yeah, say he's an African. In other words, yeah, right. Two days, three days, Triple up and double up. Man, I want to get out of SAS.

00:04:38.780 - 00:04:55.300

Beautiful. That's beautiful. Place, lot of rain, and it's clear because the winds blowing all the rain watches. So

00:04:57.460 - 00:05:13.500

everything was sparkling today, driving around. Charles says everybody, New York always has a kind of

00:05:19.680 - 00:05:42.980

tensile feature about it, I can never assimilate. I couldn't adjust my metabolism. Metabolism, yeah, I'll tell you, it's in New York. But

00:05:42.980 - 00:06:01.380

north of the Mason Nixon in the United States, outside possibly cities like this, Berkeley and San Francisco in general. Yeah.

00:06:01.380 - 00:06:11.040

Because, in a sense, these places, boy, but look at the on the other hand, you see you have to have Oakland to force communities like Berkeley to come into existence.

00:06:11.880 - 00:06:28.820

Right in Oakland, really? I mean, like Oakland, black people, whatever the Panthers are, could have been like, you have to dig them like it's a significant political force, and the whole shaping of black thought, sure,

00:06:29.540 - 00:06:38.420

from here to New York to Florida, if for no other reason than when a brother gets out of line, the First

00:06:38.420 - 00:07:00.420

thing they do is Black Panther. That's obvious. It took a picture, put in the first letter, and they announced me the way they under rodeo. They said Black Panther for

00:07:00.420 - 00:07:22.040

Archie seven weeks, any political thing is a panther to all of you, because that's the only means that they know and what has

00:07:22.640 - 00:07:37.460

happened, Heroes of any nation. In other words, Martin Luther King was a man who had actually

00:07:37.460 - 00:08:10.380

struggled for many, many years politically based. He fought throughout the South before his name. But on other hand, and all of a sudden, everybody you know, everybody, bigot, you know What happens? Though? See, the whole movement changes

00:08:10.380 - 00:08:38.720

because I one thing about the black community, because even though Hans Werner,

00:08:58.720 - 00:09:20.360

listen, no, the whole mood, you Hey, school,

00:09:47.260 - 00:10:13.320

a man is going to say that he's an artist, and I think one of the messages. Say a bird too, is that the best of our artists, the greatest of our people, were actually aware, in a sense, of their entire

00:10:13.320 - 00:10:37.880

tradition. These people were actually have to see these men as students of their people. They study life. Man and study their people. A man to play like he had, to study all the great musicians he had a little song about. But you can

00:10:38.420 - 00:11:13.260

hear this man, a man on other hand, like Kees, until you come out of prayer, you see it's all in there. You can hear bird. Yeah, that's

00:11:16.920 - 00:11:27.860

one of the things black studies can do, really. I mean, if it is people who can understand the whole question, how it could be

00:11:30.800 - 00:11:54.700

concerned, because created for class, it's good for people who can afford and we Europe, you find that that class is very specialized, and that they do a lot of homework, very serious, yeah, because you can

00:11:54.700 - 00:12:11.880

see that even in Their power structure, you could go see because, like Suzy, and people go to take their kids to see Suzy on a Sunday afternoon in New York, you gotta go way out to Brooklyn.

00:12:19.920 - 00:12:56.440

And then, even then, we're talking about white on the brothers coming up, showing me, first of all, the Kees family had to fight to get to Put off.

00:13:00.160 - 00:13:12.060

They dropped out. A lot of the brothers who see a lot of these brothers in which, maybe in a technical sense of the way these people would judge paintings sculpture,

00:13:13.620 - 00:14:02.540

they would say that a lot of these brothers was already because their whole concept was what they think of as an art anyway. Means, yeah. On. Yeah, you mean the tradition. Well, the third one

00:14:02.540 - 00:14:32.180

is, you see, in order to play coherently, call upon the witnesses. You call your predecessors. Can't deal with your predecessor. You'll

00:14:32.180 - 00:15:08.640

never plan notes. Man, I mean to learn. I listen to this man every day. But if you don't study, you can't just stop i. It sooner or later, you have to get beyond it in two directions,

00:15:09.600 - 00:15:34.400

because each one of these men is actually schools. Go through it. About I know when you mess with that, don't worry about it. I mean, maybe, maybe you're there. I

00:15:34.400 - 00:15:59.740

don't know. We you play with the Creator to keep your force that strong man, because these people you can study with

00:15:59.740 - 00:16:12.660

every day. This one of the things though, I think it isn't like three years ago when

00:16:12.660 - 00:16:24.800

Cecil played here and he was booed on the stage. Yeah, I don't think that's not going to happen anymore. I don't think I think in that sense, the audience, no, no, but I mean, I think that the audience, that the audiences are catching up.

00:16:24.800 - 00:16:40.100

The audiences are actually companies have constantly destroyed the natural report, yeah, right, by not enjoying things. Was the last of those great performance to actually get

00:16:40.100 - 00:16:53.020

through on a record basis right now, a genuine creative level. And actually even saw a lot of records, because after that, they shut that thing up. Man like today, if you don't, do not play underground stations

00:17:00.160 - 00:17:25.580

about black people when you black people listen to that we don't know many. Good FM why they can think of, you know, and really, for instance,

00:17:26.900 - 00:17:41.060

like, I get heavy things, man Kees come pulling out, you know, it's a problem, you know, I'm really finished. But then I look at you, I get mad, I get mad, I get really mad. But then I say, Well, I

00:17:47.020 - 00:18:00.160

man, one of the things that could be done is like, if you just went to the local am stations, look at their long books when their license thing came up to the FCC for renewal. Okay, now these guys are operating a black community when

00:18:00.160 - 00:18:13.800

they're everything they're playing is two minutes and 40 seconds long, and it has a mental level of about 11 years and so, you know, and it's not even that man. It's like, in other words, it's not about like, say, are the Franklin man,

00:18:14.400 - 00:18:31.580

sure, one of the greatest Sure. But even they don't. I mean, how many goes back to the great tradition of Bessie Smith. Aretha Franklin is a genius. That's right, and make no sense, because that lady can sing. She

00:18:31.640 - 00:18:43.240

knows a hell of a lot of music. Other words, she's got an end. It takes her anywhere. She can sing all of our tunes, like Deion say Dion is bad. Needed a system

00:18:44.500 - 00:19:53.140

like that. They could sing all those funny imaginations And then beat the pretty, lilting let me this do is, in fact, what we're trying to do is like, I pulled out of the Chronicle a picture of UB Blake and said,

00:19:53.140 - 00:20:12.060

Okay, now how many people the class? Nobody put up their hand. So then I came in, I said, Okay, this guy's 80. Eight years old, and he Yeah, and when he was 21 and in 1921 he wrote a song called sounds of Africa. Now, what do you think about that?

00:20:12.900 - 00:20:31.100

That's kind of dug up sounds of Africa on some record and played it and they couldn't relate to, you know, because it's Ragtime and not any. Nobody listens to Ragtime. But you know, I mean, like, you need to do that on a systematic basis, to say, okay,

00:20:31.100 - 00:20:42.340

Johannes will Morton. Now, this is what Johannes Morton did, and it's where he came from. And, you know, like, it's funny thing. I mean, like, Don't fool his book, early jazz. He says, Well, the whole thing is African. He lays the right eye.

00:20:42.520 - 00:21:02.820

You look at New Orleans music, you see exactly how it relates to an African drama ensemble, you know, in terms of the Hollywood so it can be done. I mean, yeah, the thing can be done. I mean, the thing can be it can be

00:21:02.820 - 00:21:14.520

documented. It can be shown, to some degree, at least, from records. By, you know, you play a little African drum music, you play a little of this, a little that, but it, but there's no way that black people can do that right now. I mean, they don't

00:21:14.520 - 00:21:26.540

own the institution, like you said. They don't own the radio stations, you know. So naturally, somebody like, all right, like Sonny Murray cut this album for Johannes at Columbia. And I read this, there's a symposium he may have

00:21:26.540 - 00:21:40.160

looked at black music in our culture that Kent State Press published. And Johannes are going something about how he discovered this person, discovered that person, right? And then, and he said, one and just the other day, we made this

00:21:40.220 - 00:21:52.840

record by Sonny Murray, and that was two years ago, and he hasn't released it yet. And he's got this big rationalization about, like, how every jazz or so called jazz record we make has to make sell $15,000 worth, or it won't break even. And it's

00:21:52.840 - 00:22:03.600

just bullshit. I mean, it's wise from beginning, then what comes down is he doesn't like Sonny Murray. Sonny Murray does not take orders from Johannes about how to play with music. He music, John

00:22:07.260 - 00:22:24.440

is really confronting a whole reality, right, that's right, black men who don't necessarily have PhDs and all that shit up the black artists. See, black artists may come up street. You James Brown man, the man.

00:22:32.480 - 00:22:49.600

And then we're not even going into birth, then we're into something else, which the implication of which John Hans never, really, ever seriously went to Dodie. No, I'm sure he doesn't. That's

00:22:49.600 - 00:23:22.340

it. He wants to go back, which there was as far as he could go, right? Yeah. Well, John was when he was turned up. The tragedy, though, the tragedy is, why should Hans have that control? Was last what I'm

00:23:22.340 - 00:23:32.720

getting at, yeah, Sam, he shouldn't be up to Hans. It shouldn't be up to any one person, anyhow. But of all, people shouldn't be up to Johannes, who comes out of the Vanderbilt family, who's, you know, like hereditarily wealthy

00:23:32.720 - 00:23:59.260

on his own. What does he have in common with the people who are making the records and people who are listening to the records? I'm, very rich. Family. That's what makes, creates leisure time. We play a, what is

00:23:59.260 - 00:24:16.980

essentially a music is born out of function, out of ritual, whatever work songs, what not, which has been applied to a system which it was not even intended to be part of anyway, right? Which is like where everything is based on the sale

00:24:16.980 - 00:24:36.140

of it, whatnot. At that point they would have to say, alright, your music is as valid as the music of Beethoven, but that would be to give you a separate national credit by comparing a music to Beethoven, probably with black.

00:24:36.140 - 00:24:50.980

Anyway, it's really about whether or not they they choose to recognize existence of the music. They can't even recognize existence to Johnny Cash, you know that they can, I mean, except in a commercial sense. I

00:24:50.980 - 00:25:06.300

mean, like, if you look at Johnny Cash, finally, hybrid form has been created like Ohta, Billy Joe, sure. That's. Nice blues. What I'm getting at is they can't, they can't deal with non elite white culture.

00:25:06.300 - 00:25:32.900

Because, you see, the hillbilly culture is really quite it's derivative, sure, sure. Hillbilly culture is derived from the black music, like you hear Leon Thomas yodeling. And

00:25:32.900 - 00:25:44.680

today, a lot of people seem to think that Leon probably got the idea from the Tennessee Hill building. In fact, the old windows all the way back. Yeah, you got it from the pygmies? Yeah, right now,

00:25:46.660 - 00:26:08.460

I've heard that particular Yeah. But what I was getting at is, I agree with what you're saying there. I mean, I think that, like, if you look at White holy rolling churches, they derive their whole thing from

00:26:08.820 - 00:26:23.180

black evangelism. So what I was saying is that the white establishment, they can't, can't even deal with white culture. That is not, that is not on the on the elite level. They can't afford it a recognition. So if you look in the curriculum,

00:26:23.180 - 00:26:34.700

music curriculum, it's not only they don't have any black music in the curriculum, they don't have any they don't have any white popular music, regardless of where the roots were. See, they can't deal with Johannes. You can't deal with rodeo

00:26:38.360 - 00:26:53.020

at this point, seems to me, contingent, really, on the existence, on the recognition of black, okay, all right, maybe that's it. Maybe they could be a little more popular music that exists in this country,

00:26:53.020 - 00:27:08.940

derived from the American Negro, so called, if you listen to it, popular music. It music, time span of American popular music, I mean, anything from TV shows to

00:27:09.120 - 00:27:22.220

country in Western and whatnot, the best country, like scrubs and those cats, yeah. I mean, I didn't know you went to labor which you know, you know, but at the same

00:27:22.220 - 00:27:35.480

time recognize white. Yeah, you're in a sense, you're right, right? That's why the white popular musician is something they'll never, they'll never be able to recognize that in the formal and so called

00:27:35.480 - 00:27:51.520

legitimate way, because they keep hearing Alexander's Raglan the closest they'll ever get is like somebody who makes it symphonic, yeah, pretty grofe or Hill Country?

00:27:53.980 - 00:28:31.400

Yeah, I know where he studied next Willie next to Jason the cutting piano rolls. Dinner too. Yeah, right, okay, let's go. Charles,

00:28:40.000 - 00:29:06.360

really fingers. I get in there. Tonight we ate there. Five o'clock. People were standing in the bay. It was so crowded. Hans Jean wants to go Larry black, she likes her Caesar salad. I'm

00:29:14.220 - 00:29:35.120

wondering do ought to be very hard to get started. Corporation together,

00:29:40.000 - 00:30:01.980

and working on some Batista, right to share that with the puck. It, but you were only way the public

00:30:06.600 - 00:30:22.980

is going to get to hear that thing is, yeah, well, until you control the commercial leads, you're not going to get to that again when you come in Adam.

00:30:22.980 - 00:30:44.080

In, oh, man, but that's across the country. Of course they will. I mean, Joe termini, Joe, to me, you don't have to go any further back, actually. I think Joe sees a lot of things.

00:30:45.580 - 00:31:01.060

Yeah, it's too bad that the season 10 years. I mean, well, he could have whole spirit of the thing that he was trying to stop was because was a beautiful thing. That's what I mean. He even, even in a commercial sense, potentially

00:31:01.060 - 00:31:42.760

right? He could have made money with it in New York, at least. It was last note, guys, no, no, you can't really give Lester, you know, that kind of thing, like talking about, you know Paul Tanner, you know

00:31:44.020 - 00:32:16.020

the name, Yeah. Oh, that's right, yeah, right. Some of these ladies, thank you. I'm getting to appreciate the merit. Yeah, the merits, even

00:32:16.020 - 00:32:42.100

alien as i Yes, an older man has something on a lot of these to get these young girls praises, Jesus. Wisdom and experience.

00:32:52.000 - 00:33:16.260

I think you're going to see the coming of that kind of thing, because I know Sure, did you see what? And you see someone when Andrew Hill was on, we can't, they can't ask him records recently and said, I

00:33:16.260 - 00:33:31.100

don't, I'm not in the jungle anymore. That's all I got. I'm not in the jungle anymore. I'm teaching Yeah, it Colgate. So, I mean, that's, it's like the, you know, used to be the industry didn't have any business. Now you don't have any

00:33:31.820 - 00:33:42.700

use for the industry. In fact, ideas about, oh, if it could be done, right? Sure. I mean, we had money, yeah, if you had your own entree, you know? Like, yeah,

00:33:43.960 - 00:34:03.000

that's big. That's a big hassle. Sure You can't compete with General Motors. Well, if you have the money changes, talk about that

00:34:04.800 - 00:34:28.940

he had for actually recording only young thing right there in the center of town and whatnot, required the kind of money. 24 hour recording had no place to stay that they was playing come in this way, play all day. I mean, that sound like it's

00:34:28.940 - 00:34:40.300

talking. That's, that's the kind of oral tradition kind of thing. Yeah, right, right on. But that comes from, that's what a cast like

00:34:46.540 - 00:35:13.020

you can go now to make a Santa if you want to study the scores and. To leave all the back. Same thing you can

00:35:13.980 - 00:35:47.020

study, yeah, they got the scores. Special music library, and they have scores of all these works continuing. It's a tradition. People do this all the time. David went out, so I a jar in

00:35:56.080 - 00:37:02.920

the Linley man, I guess you could say yeah, yeah, but you know, Like, if you could get him together. Mm,

00:37:19.800 - 00:38:01.320

brother, Lou, that, you know, I don't necessarily see you do it, man, because now, you know Capitola on television today, Kees brother, we didn't have it together, you know? You of those. Kees, you know,

00:38:03.540 - 00:38:25.640

a lot of my coat. Man, you know, like I'm over the hills. I can see a brother going into there, like a little pickup game. I said, Wait a minute, let's, let's start. Man, Kees, he'll listen to you

00:38:25.700 - 00:38:53.800

because if you say, but try it your way. Now, you know, attempt my way. How many did you make more comfortable? But then he can keep going, you know, you know, he can come from Oscar Wilde. He's gonna find something reaching back, you know, I

00:38:53.800 - 00:39:12.660

learned this first, you know, and then I do this fourth or fifth stage, like, all together. Like, all, all together. That's kind of an integration. Because, you know, I was checking last night, something like when rodeo, man, rodeo and I got

00:39:12.660 - 00:39:39.560

together, and we started talking about Preservation Hall. And I was telling say, Hey man, you know, like when I was with kids, you and I know all about these places, and rodeo was up there putting people on Man at first, because a lot of country. But

00:39:39.560 - 00:39:59.920

anyway, anything I had a conversation with the man and boy, the captains. Boy, he went back up and grabbed the thing out of, you know, like a call and response after a while, you know, like a pre.

00:40:00.000 - 00:40:34.580

She's talking man, he just traced it right on up through one stage. Really a down. Kees, it down. I

00:40:52.720 - 00:41:28.580

so I was with you, the person. No, well, mean, yeah, okay, well, no, he's only played Sacramento once in the two years

00:41:28.580 - 00:41:44.380

I've been there. And I saw him when he was there, and he had Steve Ellen can on drum. So two was about the middle of about about a year and a half ago, maybe every year and a couple of months,

00:41:45.700 - 00:42:08.040

maybe, yeah, what the first ball you were teaching? Well anyway, and we really got into a whole lot of things. I them, that's right. Well, maybe

00:42:08.040 - 00:42:20.580

I don't know, maybe myself, maybe I mentioned that I don't know. I seem remember that you and I were both there. It doesn't make any difference. I know the engagement, and I know where he was playing, and I know that was, that was the last jazz

00:42:20.580 - 00:42:39.140

attraction that place ever had. Right after that, I went into this whatever it's got mad bear in his dancing pools, or whatever. Oh, Cal Tara played City College. Doesn't know he played

00:42:39.140 - 00:43:00.280

the guild of Kees what? That was last I know what it was. I caught him at the cage. That's a person who actually, right now, is getting ready to split, and

00:43:00.640 - 00:43:16.620

who was the cat that really knows he was a trained administrator, right, right? But like, all he did was, after that, all the shit started to go the bureaucratic, the bureaucratic shit. Right now they're getting ready to phase

00:43:16.620 - 00:43:32.060

out the effort, the experimental program, amazing, these things being stayed on that asses, man, everything. I wasn't satisfied with anything. That's why they wanted me. Yeah, so it wasn't a big thing. Where I got into I went to the guy I was the vice

00:43:32.120 - 00:43:54.220

chairman, Vice associate director of an experimental program, and between me and the guy who was the chairman, who actually see, I mean, many things we did in concert, because, like, there were things he could do, and there were

00:43:54.220 - 00:44:10.020

things he obviously knew that I could do, right. But one thing was, and I was always thinking, Now, the reason that this whole thing has been set up is because of the riots that took place that really, we can never lose sight of that fact, no matter

00:44:10.020 - 00:44:27.800

what's behind what I say. In other words, this country is crisis. Oh, yeah, sure. Only say okay, but, and that's the way we kept them for that first year, man up against the wall like that? No, no, you know, all right, end of that year, I went

00:44:27.800 - 00:44:42.100

to the chairman, because we'd had a big internal thing, you see, because, incidentally, there's a contaminant reaction from the black community itself, because they think, well, here's an outside cat from New York, you come to Buffalo because

00:44:42.100 - 00:44:57.400

there's a whole community thing. You don't just go to Buffalo and think just because you're a New Yorker. No, no, because right away, then they have their own community groups. Bill, Cao, you know, they all, you know. After all, you know, you're being

00:44:57.400 - 00:45:17.880

funded through OEO. You. This is all federal money. It's a lot of money involved, like the thing goes down, and I went to the chairman. I said, guys, Julian, I told him to keep the thing together, man. I said, I'm going to resign

00:45:19.500 - 00:45:34.760

as the associate director of the program, so I'll just confine myself to teaching, which actually for me, was a good thing, in a way, because at that point I said, Well, dig it. First of all, I'm not a resident of the community,

00:45:35.180 - 00:45:47.140

and I know what it is to have to pay Dennis to be a resident of a community while you do look like you're either trying to be a mom. You're either trying to be a modder or hero.

00:45:48.580 - 00:46:10.440

Basically worked with my craft. So I told the cat, I said. And the following year, I established the identity I wanted as a teacher. I told him, like I had a year to go into my concert instead of doing this, Administrator, what did you

00:46:10.920 - 00:46:32.060

teach? I taught music the first year. This year I teach theater writers. It's not really very successful in the sense that I'm able to really teach a lot of the things that I know, simply because it's a question of time, right? If I could, you see, and

00:46:32.060 - 00:46:48.700

then it's the way Black Studies is all it's helped us skeleton, see, I suggested. I'm a consultant, right? So one of the things is that we start to pull black studies together. Incidentally, I propose John Coltrane is, yeah, I'll get a

00:46:48.700 - 00:47:01.080

copy. Okay, yeah, yeah, I'll swap proposals. I'll show you. Course, I proposed Black History three black which was this idea was to pull into focus, you know, black

00:47:01.080 - 00:47:13.620

studies, especially in the cultural area, sure, which is what Charles I was saying. The last thing that gets done, it's funny, you get historians, political scientists. You never get anybody to teach anything about music, yeah. And then you

00:47:13.620 - 00:47:25.880

see, because really, in order to establish, for example, theater, you would have to have a knowledge of religion, right? But we have today. You know, in black studies, you have a guy

00:47:25.880 - 00:47:47.860

that he's outstanding, Weldon, almost every Black Studies Department, Hans, several, one from the West Center, so called Third World. And all these are like, focused on either teaching this, Dodie, kind of Black Studies stamp you see at the

00:47:47.860 - 00:48:11.820

same time, there are community problems, but they raise it, which have nothing to Do really right now with the teaching black studies, have to become a reality. It's not a reality yet, because basically, it's planned on the basis stereotypes,

00:48:12.660 - 00:48:38.540

stereotype, education, oh, which these are things that we are beginning to learn simply through today's awareness, but on other hand, to Make our community viable,

00:48:40.520 - 00:49:01.380

learning skills, then that's when we stop. Well, that's why Redmond is very good. You know Eugene Redmond, you have met him. Poet for me, St Louis, kind of brown faced camp. And he

00:49:01.380 - 00:49:15.000

Hans he and Harrison and Oliver Jackson are all tight. Well, Bradman is very good, because as soon as he comes into the community, he immediately orients it into the community action program. But when he starts teaching on the cultural

00:49:15.000 - 00:49:36.020

level, he teaches out of blues and spiritual and he doesn't start off with Swahili, because community kind of resents. And also this thing gets into another thing that you see, we never, monies have never been allocated to the actual

00:49:36.020 - 00:50:01.380

liberation. And when I say that, after the Reconstruction period, after the Civil War, they ostensibly let the black man flee. Other words, they gave him a certain name, a political freedom. All right, you see history. Political freedom and a

00:50:01.440 - 00:50:14.700

certain amount of social mobility, social freedom. So it's socio political freedom, but it was not economic no right. You see, the black man still carries economic change, even though we have been politically in a sense, we are

00:50:14.700 - 00:50:32.060

quasi free. You see, I mean, we are free in a sense of our minds and so forth and what we are aware but to say it's like exactly because we have economic change, sure we have never really see the promise of the Reconstruction period was 40

00:50:32.060 - 00:50:49.240

Acres of mule but the people who are running the country. That was the beginning of racism in this country in that sense, because slavery, it's not even necessarily about racism at that

00:50:51.340 - 00:51:06.840

point. But, yeah, well, the northerners who came down the south from out of Boston was very concerned with that. The first thing they found out on the Sea Islands is that you gave ex slaves their own

00:51:06.840 - 00:51:17.820

land. They would raise carrots and greens. Didn't want to raise any more cotton. Go out and do gang labor anymore, which is only very antithesis about because our whole thing is a communal kind

00:51:17.820 - 00:51:39.200

of society. Well, they would raise getting back to the colleges, you see, when we get to the colleges, it's the same question, because, see, we're looking at now is the beginning of a whole, another collegial Police College thing, which

00:51:39.200 - 00:52:00.280

would be a black university within the university. Otherwise, at that point, you're speaking of nationalism, quality nationalism in which your people not only gain a knowledge of themselves and the negligence, but in which they have actual

00:52:00.280 - 00:52:21.260

control over their own curriculum, they establish their own collegial departments. That means money. That means money is as we were talking about, to specialize, to create fellows, to create Charles. In other words, we it involves something

00:52:21.260 - 00:52:37.640

which America has never been willing to commit itself to, the liberation of the black man, economic change. As long as we speak of an individual, we will, we will be speaking Frazier today,

00:52:40.580 - 00:53:03.300

because we will become the enemies of our own people. It's no longer good enough to have a psalmist. Moses, things is not going to work for us. Well, I mean, it's already been done, man. I mean, right now,

00:53:05.880 - 00:53:47.440

we all got to get out of this. Y'all got to get classes in that sense, like water seeks its own level. Yeah, well, the funny, I mean, pathetic thing is the people we're staying with now is my old major professor in genetics, and

00:53:47.440 - 00:54:01.860

she's on the campus wide ethnic studies committee for the university. And it's identical. The story is identical. The positions are funded. The money disappears before the people are hired. Nobody's hired. Nobody's hired in the latter position.

00:54:01.860 - 00:54:15.120

That is an appropriate position where you advance. They're all hired with instructors, lecturers. So they're in there here. So they look say, we're hiring black bacalao next year. They're out. You know, we need to hear like, what's something

00:54:15.120 - 00:54:28.220

which may or may not, may not happen, which is like an appropriation billion dollars or more, perhaps a multi billion dollar appropriation without the strings, right?

00:54:29.660 - 00:54:49.600

Which would be earmark for the creation you see? Because what it seems to me is that we are becoming a plural nation, in that sense, that within this nation, that can be another nation. This may not necessarily be exclusive, but it can still

00:54:49.600 - 00:55:14.640

be nationalistic. You know. To stop the black man had his own separate nation. What if he said, I will

00:55:14.640 - 00:55:34.040

not fight the war in Vietnam? What it, then you see, then you see, we come to grips with the reality of exploitation, yeah, why there is no billion, multi billion dollar

00:55:34.580 - 00:55:49.720

the first thing they want to know is, all right, what kind of curriculum you have, right? And if you won't, then they're not going to not going to fund you. They don't want to fund you to teach kids not to go to

00:55:49.720 - 00:56:07.500

Vietnam. We got to, they got to get that cannon fodder someplace else. It's hard to get that. I'm not necessarily moving the best international companies the

00:56:07.500 - 00:56:22.100

newspapers are. There you go. Richest man in New York today says the kids can't have enough to eat.

00:56:23.060 - 00:56:39.320

He's the richest lamb. What kids can't have enough to eat? Welch. Kids go to school today. Man, 50 days out of the year, if they're lucky, in the city that they on strike every day, no money. Man, and this guy said, Well, we broke personally,

00:56:41.780 - 00:56:54.340

he will not get away with that shit. Starving people, man, rich mother fucker. My ladies, this man has Rockefeller, you see, and he's typical. Otherwise, these cats, it's not that

00:56:56.020 - 00:57:10.140

there's no money. You can drink every conversation. Them, and he has the prerogative of a billionaire. See, Henze rodeo depression. That's why Rockefeller all during the last

00:57:10.140 - 00:57:34.880

depression, said, ain't no depression. You know, they make money with their there's, you know, like the so called New rich can't compete with people like you got people like DuPont, well, Rockefeller, they make

00:57:37.520 - 00:58:12.360

money because all these small companies can't make it. They just go and buy them up. It's up. They control you. Lamb? Well, that was what the San Francisco State strike was all about. Was it going to be an autonomous Black Studies, or was

00:58:12.360 - 00:58:23.900

it going to be a studies run by Hans? And you saw what had that happen? They eliminated before they would make it autonomous. They would rather eliminate it. And that's what they did. They eliminated 11 positions last year. There's no black

00:58:23.900 - 00:58:37.580

studies program. Well, see, I think Black Studies is now becoming or whatever it's actually, it can be the harbinger of a good thing, or else they ought to stop using the term the way they use. It's too good to stop using no

00:58:37.580 - 00:58:54.580

because what they But see, they don't mean black studies. I know that's what they mean. Is the black university, the black university, which involves a whole collegiality, a network, sure, interlocking, interlocking, philosophical,

00:58:54.580 - 00:59:09.120

artistic, scientific systems, namely a configuration of things, which you could call the black experience from the beginning. They have to deal with that. They won't deal with it, because to do that would mean you have to create

00:59:11.820 - 00:59:27.440

a black expertise, wouldn't I mean be taximating, in the sense that West India and West Indian people and some of our African brothers have freed themselves now even say, in a place like the Western

00:59:27.860 - 00:59:44.320

imperialistic control, you do have the image of a of a black political power, Even in Haiti, which is accused of being a dictatorship. One of the things that never comes

00:59:44.320 - 01:00:02.800

clear was that after the overthrow the expelling of the French, the Hans Werner. Legally by mulatto government

01:00:02.800 - 01:00:20.180

Liberia, and the same was true in Cuba. You see, even as much as I support brother Fidel, you see, Batista was actually a mulatto, you see, so the situation in countries of South America is

01:00:20.180 - 01:00:38.780

complicated by the fact of color, because brothers have been used against each other somewhere, as you support Fidel, you also recognize, as people pointed out, that there are many elements of latent elements of

01:00:38.780 - 01:00:57.700

racism, because the highest ranking official for years in the government, and only black one was the man who was head of the army. What was his name? That was because a large number of the brothers who fought in the revolution was black the

01:00:57.700 - 01:01:27.380

Capitola, and they headed army. The General was, you say anytime that a country has been undersized the period that Cuba was by and to be just because that system was overthrown. You know, when

01:01:27.380 - 01:01:43.540

systems overthrown, they're not overthrown. Systems overthrown usually, and I would say in general, yeah. But you see, the thing I'm saying is that Latin America itself has not dealt with the question of nationalism as

01:01:43.540 - 01:01:59.560

regard and plurality as regards its various societies. Integration has become a convenient out clause, or a lot of bullshit, where you get something like Black Studies in a white university, which doesn't even match what Howard

01:01:59.560 - 01:02:16.800

University has been doing for years at Hans Institute, and really when they should begin to actually support and begin to change the face of the black university, to expand it, because it's an existing facility. Thing is that the

01:02:16.800 - 01:02:33.200

black university is more reactionary generally than the white one, because they're controlled completely by administration. And Howard man, I was doing my play down there. I was in. I used to go to the I used to go to the practice

01:02:33.200 - 01:02:48.040

rooms, and they would hear this sound on the piano. And every day, like every hour, on the hour, somebody would run from his classes. So he had to wish you to be here I wish you to be here off the street. That's the first Dodie was they played,

01:02:51.040 - 01:03:15.300

no jazz. Yeah, Marion. Remember that? Marion tell you about his senior recital that he wouldn't play because it had to be entailed so he never got his degree. But, you know, those things seem to

01:03:15.300 - 01:03:48.280

me to be obvious and normal byproducts of you know the middle class thing, but you know, so you know, they think Weldon, like Henze, they would get rid of a cat like neighbors.

01:03:49.180 - 01:04:10.620

That's the only thing that made neighbors leave, not necessarily saying that cheek is so cool, but cheek is a minimum change. Well for the moment, you know, Oh, William cheek, yeah, black

01:04:10.620 - 01:04:38.480

resistance before the Civil War. William a year 31 man, he wasn't Howard. Very intelligent man. He sponsored several of the first university like Festival, which brought together various

01:04:38.480 - 01:04:51.040

colleges. This cat man, he went over the federal city, which I was thinking of trying to go. Thinking of trying to go to myself. And he happened to get involved in a community split thing in

01:04:51.040 - 01:05:02.340

which it was revolving around federal city because it's a black college that's got a whole revolutionary idea and like that. And I. So there were several community brothers who

01:05:02.340 - 01:05:22.400

was running for office. Akron had been asked by the community to run, and he had refused, but at a last minute meeting, they invade upon him, and he decided to put himself in the arena which he won the election that was going down. These brothers

01:05:22.400 - 01:05:40.520

took their downstairs in federal city, and they booked him almost they kicked five black guys, and that's the thing, man,

01:05:42.440 - 01:06:04.140

they both kill. Went down there in Southern California, right the New Yorker magazine. Did you read that article on how they shot that boy on the podium?

01:06:11.520 - 01:06:29.060

You wouldn't believe man, how these cats did this thing to each other. You say, Okay, after a while, everybody. Every brother's Malcolm X ain't even about who killed, who went down

01:06:30.440 - 01:06:51.100

over any poverty, money, it don't even matter. I'm telling you, the lost. It one

01:06:56.440 - 01:07:14.580

of the cats, yeah, there's a brother who's now testified against the pamphlets. Is an informer working with Lazarus. That's why I really began to think about the Muslim organization another

01:07:14.580 - 01:07:28.640

way after that. See, because actually, Elijah Muhammad did say he denied any party that's right, see as it came, I just kept Eugene Roberts Levis detective working undercover with Malcolm X bodyguard.

01:07:38.240 - 01:08:09.840

Muslims haven't had any of that either. I mean, like they haven't killed anybody. They don't get busted. That was seven year. That was 63 or four. Yeah, that was 63 right? Oh, I know

01:08:11.220 - 01:08:28.100

that was when Malcolm X came out, and he was at the place on Central Avenue. He taught, there was a benefit, Drew, Holmes, played. But I mean, you know, I really some of my movements that I did,

01:08:29.600 - 01:08:44.500

though, and then I this other part is rather mystical to me, organization, I don't know, although you know, many implications that can be made, but that that can

01:08:46.420 - 01:09:11.100

be disproven too well. I'm talking about a viable political organization today would have some many of the qualities of the movement, beginning with this whole solidarity spirit, basically rooted

01:09:13.320 - 01:09:28.700

in nationally, a really mass movement that is as effective as well? Yeah, I think

01:09:30.020 - 01:09:50.740

have the qualities of the Muslims, the Panthers, the extensive even even though at times it's superficial. See, I don't think the Muslim control administrative contacts of groups like Nancy. I see the whole black movement as coming

01:09:50.740 - 01:10:14.160

together. Yeah, you know we can and really deepening it's, it's whole left nationalist or. A perspective by actually testifying itself at the core, while on the surface, it begins to broaden its whole scope in terms of including other

01:10:18.420 - 01:10:40.460

authorizations it should have been increased militancy groups, man on the street. But you know, the thing is, you see, because it's not a question of cause for society, which white people and black people

01:10:40.460 - 01:11:03.300

have to live separately? I'm frankly, frankly, that to me, I feel like a free man, right? Being a slave in this country has taught me the beauty of being free. Actually, I don't want nobody I think freedom is when you can do

01:11:03.300 - 01:11:23.240

this exactly what the heck you want, as long as you don't cover nobody else business what I do. But I'm saying the black people should at least have the power to change their own destiny. What if a black man marry a white woman? I don't give a

01:11:23.240 - 01:11:49.360

damn. I'm more upset if a white man can marry a black woman, because I know that the power equipments are not the same. Yeah. Okay, yeah. White Man has a choice to marry a white woman. He can do that

01:11:49.360 - 01:12:05.460

because he has superior economic power. Basically, when you can, societies have always functioned this way. Women's liberation, not withstanding that men have always determined the destinies of their women.

01:12:11.520 - 01:12:24.260

Terminate the law, but terminate teaches you that the oldest son inherits the land, but yeah, sir, this sister was saying Last night. She was saying that,

01:12:42.260 - 01:13:12.660

right on, that's right think right on that's right down when she was coming and talking about So, about today. What's happening, given the matriarchy we have in the black community, more Black Chicks in relative terms than in

01:13:12.660 - 01:13:26.900

absolute terms. Hans, those grades and everything you know to go on to these schools when they do throw that stuff out there to play a game. She was saying she think that's the worst thing that happened that she really see.

01:13:32.060 - 01:13:52.720

I had to really sit back. Well, the black woman always understood anyway. The thing is that, you know, in other words, we are Weldon in the world. You know, new world is a is like a place man, everybody came

01:13:52.720 - 01:14:08.220

together. It's an experiment. So to that extent, you see, our woman has been changed when we could determine our family, we could tell our woman what to do, we no longer

01:14:08.220 - 01:14:18.780

determine our family. So we are. We understand very well what women's liberation is about. That's right, because, see, our woman has always been free, but we never had we've never had no power, right?

01:14:28.160 - 01:14:45.760

Was right on women of racism, it is moved by essentially the white woman, although the black woman feels she the black woman fights for other kinds, white women, white women. White women basically want to get away from the tyranny that has been

01:14:45.760 - 01:15:01.800

exercised through the patriarchal system, white patriarchal system. That's what they really get. It's not the black. That's not the black. Half of the time she ain't no daddy, no way. Yeah. Man, I see it every day, and I know you see

01:15:01.800 - 01:15:20.160

it too, brother. I'm saying so when we speak of the family, we know where we coming from. So many broken homes, you see, because this woman, she struggles,

01:15:21.960 - 01:15:49.960

Angela Davies, you see Angela Davies was more approximate one of the Palestinians, like this girl would be like that, beautifully. Yeah. Woman, you know, her liberation is the liberation of

01:15:49.960 - 01:16:20.540

people trying to get a home where she can have a man, Right, without having run around with a bomb. Yeah? As really pisses

01:16:23.480 - 01:16:43.240

me off, but at all that's that's sad. You know what? I mean, just walk down the street, sometimes just check out the number, but they know deep down in themselves.

01:16:57.940 - 01:17:10.800

These young white boys are Vietnam, I come one thing I've coming out the West Coast. See, on the west coast, you're very war conscious. I mean, when I say that, I'm very well conscious, because, like, going to the

01:17:10.800 - 01:17:30.320

airport, first thing I see is all these soldiers, soldiers everywhere. Remind me of the Second World War, but I'm the East Coast. You don't get that. That's right. Man, two trains To roll right through for Chicago.

01:17:48.780 - 01:18:28.880

This bad. They called him sorry. I knew he knew his shit, by the way he was talking. He was all messed up, real heavy, but she knew this cat, Medina, said, get

01:18:30.740 - 01:19:30.860

it, man, don't even look back. Now, let's think of peace. God forgive. Over your name Baby

01:19:32.720 - 01:20:06.960

already seen and did. That's why I said this man have to go to bed with that for the rest of his life. And I said to us, about Kelly man Kelly. They took everything they were fighting for the country, and what happened was these rich

01:20:06.960 - 01:20:19.740

motherfuckers fried their ass and those loyal leases on the coast because they were dispensable. Sure, that's just what I told my class, man, there's actually

01:20:19.740 - 01:21:00.700

there's not one of You any the Frank my wife, yeah, I'm sorry, yeah.