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Morton Marcus: Hello everybody, this is Morton Marcus and this is The Poetry Show, and I'm here with my co-host Dennis Morton. Good evening, Dennis. Dennis Morton: Hi Mort.

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Morton Marcus: Dennis is a bit under the weather. We were to be doing a show tonight with Sam Hamill and discussing his beautiful and very wise book, "Dumb Luck," and it was going to be just a wonderful Poetry Show but history has a way of

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changing things. And so we are here with Sam Hamill, who now has started a brush fire in this country, as he literally set up a protest called the "Poet's Against the War," and I'm gonna let Dennis take over and talk to Sam about that for at least the

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first few minutes of the show. Dennis Morton: Yes, well, I think as we talked before the show, Mort, we'll spend a few minutes talking about "Poets Against the War," and then the rest of the first half hour on

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Sam's book, and then we're going to do something very new for The Poetry Show. We're going to open the phone lines for the last half of the hour and folks will have an opportunity to ask Sam anything they want. And rather than me say much about it, I

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think I'd like to just let Sam tell us what happened, for those who don't already know. Sam Hamill: Well, two weeks ago, I was invited to the White House and when the message came in the mail, I felt my heart sing.

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Before I knew I opened the envelope, I knew what it was because it was a little square envelope that said "The White House" in gold letters up in the left hand corner. And I knew there would only be one reason why I would get such a thing

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and, frankly, I knew that I was going to be in trouble no matter what I did. I've been an opponent of everything that this administration stands for basically all my life. And I opened the envelope and I read the invitation to the White

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House to have an evening of "The American Voice in Poetry," and I stewed about it for about 24 hours and finally, I decided that obviously I couldn't go to this particular White House. And I wrote a few friends and asked them if they would send me a

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poem of conscience about what this administration has planned in Iraq and frankly, in this country as well, and it became a firestorm of protests. The literary community now has submitted about 5,000 poems to "poetsagainstthewar.org". So

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here we are. Dennis Morton: Sam, I just, I just pulled the Merwin piece off of the the net, I punched up "www.poetsagainstthewar.org," and I noticed that a transformation of aesthetic

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magnitude has occurred on the- on the website, and your figure of about 5,000 is now woefully out of date. It's 5,400 poems have been sent to that website. Sam Hamill: We were getting poems yesterday and today at

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about one poem every minute and a half. The literary community in this country has risen as never before. In fact, never before in history have so many poets gathered to speak in a single voice.

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Dennis Morton: You know, Sam, there's no way that anyone can predict with assurance what's going to happen but this, this certainly has not occurred before where so many people, thanks to the internet, have been able to almost instantly

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have- speak their minds about the war that- Sam Hamill: I sent my email out to 40 or 50 poet friends Sunday morning and by Monday, the following day, we had I think about 1,500 responses. It collapsed the server on the

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email system of the woman who was serving as secretary. Some very bright and generous people who are internet geniuses opened the website for us, a d right now we have 25 edito s working about 16 hours a da , formatting the poems that a

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e being sent in, in protest f this administratio Dennis Morton: You remember when we stopped on the way from San Francisco today for a sandwich and sat next to a woman who let us share the table with her?

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Sam Hamill: Of course, Dennis Morton: She- she was talking about living in a million dollar home neighborhood and we asked her what she, what she thought of-

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Sam Hamill: How many of your neighbors support this administration? She said, "I don't know of any." Dennis Morton: Yeah. So I guess what I'm asking is, poets are usually ahead of the pack, I think, when in terms of sensing

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what's, you know, what's around the corner, and if that's so perhaps this presages a groundswell of genuinely popular feelings about this? Sam Hamill: I certainly believe so. I think the media in this

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country has been beaten to the right and I think the voice of the American people has been very effectively silenced by this administration until this groundswell began. Dennis Morton: Well, perhaps now's as good a time as any to

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say, you know, to say that you're going to be reading tomorrow night at Cabrillo College in Room 508 and that the- one of the most esteemed poets in the world will open that reading. That would be Adrienne Rich and one of the

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poets that you publish at Copper Canyon Press. We- I don't think we even mentioned that you are the- Morton Marcus: We haven't introduced him yet. We'll do Dennis Morton: All right, okay. Joe Stroud will also read

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that. coughs], pardon me, Joe Stroud ill also read tomorrow, that Dennis Morton: Right, it was before this invitation to the White House

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Morton Marcus: And it's very difficult to find rooms at tarts at 7:30 at Room 508 at Cabrillo College. I suspect M Cabrillo anyway. If people are turned away when you come rt, that that's going to be a packed place and that if peopl

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want to get in, they better ge there a litt tomorrow, there is going to be a big reading of "Poets Against Morton Marcus: And and if they are disappointed because this reading was originally set up, having nothing to do with the

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situation. the War," within the next two or three weeks, and we will have more information for you sometime this week on that one. Dennis Morton: Right, and Sam, there are readings scheduled all

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over the country now aren't there? Sam Hamill: There are literally going to be hundreds of readings on the 12th as a response to the email that I send out to a few literary friends.

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Dennis Morton: We're gonna consider your reading here on the 10th as the [cross talk] kick off that's gonna kick off all the others. How's that? Sam Hamill: It's a privilege and an honor.

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Dennis Morton: So we're- we're really happy to have you here to speak about Poets Against the War, but we're also happy to have you here to celebrate the publication of your new book by BOA Editions, "Dumb Luck," and Mort, I know that you've been

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spending a lot of time with, I've read "Dumb Luck," also, but I know you've spent a lot of time in the last day with "Dumb Luck." So you want to kick it off from here? Morton Marcus: I've actually spent my whole life with dumb

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luck. But I did want to say that Sam Hamill is not just a political person and what happens in America is when you get suddenly, celebrity status, everyone really does not know what you do or what you have done for the last 40-50 odd

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years of your life. Sam Hamill has been a poet. He has been a searcher and a seeker to live his life in balance with the universe, and he has become and has been for the last, I guess, 35 years, the editor of what I think is the best small press

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for poetry in America, I thought that for years and that is Copper Canyon Press. It's gotten more ambitious of late and has been giving the Collected Poems of a number of wonderful poets. And in fact, they've just brought out the collective poems

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of Kenneth Rexroth. So it is a delight to have you here Sam, and we want you to read that statement by the great W.S. Merlin, who you've got in touch with, but I do want to get into your poetry after that.

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Sam Hamill: Well, when I read the letter from Laura Bush, the first thing I did was call a couple of close friends, they included W.S. Merwin, Adrienne Rich, and Hayden Carruth, old friends, old allies, and good advisors. And when I decided

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that I simply had to make my little stand, I certainly didn't expect what followed. But I think W.S. Merwin really speaks for us all, this is the statement he gave us for "poetsagainstthewar.org":

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It would not have been possible for me ever to trust someone who acquired office by the shameful means Mr. Bush and his abetters resorted to in the last presidential election. His nonentity was rapidly becoming more apparent than ever when the

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catastrophe of September 11, 2001, provided him and his handlers with a role for him, that of "wartime leader," which they and he in turn, were quick to exploit. The role was used at once to silence all criticism of the man and his words as

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unpatriotic, and to provide the auspices for a sustained assault upon civil liberties, environmental protections, and general welfare. The perpetuation of this role of "wartime leader" is the primary reason, more important even than

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the greed for oilfields, and the wish to blot out his father's failure, for the present determination to visit war upon Iraq, kill and maim countless people, and antagonize much of the world of which Mr. Bush had not heard until recently. The

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real iniquities of Saddam Hussein should be recognized, in this context, as the pretexts they are. His earlier atrocities went unmentioned as long as he was an ally of former Republican administrations, which were happy, in their time, to supply

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him with weapons. I think that someone who has maneuvered into office against the will of the electorate, as Mr. Bush was, should be allowed to make no governmental decisions, including judicial appointments that might outlast his

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questionable term, and if the reasons for war were many times greater than they have been said to be, I would oppose anything of the kind under such "leadership." To arrange a war in order to be reelected outdoes even the means employed in the

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last presidential election. Mr. Bush, and his plans are a greater danger to the United States than Saddam Hussein. Morton Marcus: Sam, do you want to make any comments? Sam Hamill: I don't think that needs a lot of further comment,

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frankly. I think W.S. Merwin, the distinguished former chancellor of the Academy of American poets, and conceivably, the most honored poet of the last half century, has said it very clearly for all of us.

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Morton Marcus: Great. We will be opening the phones in approximately 20 minutes, and people can call in, talk to Sam. But I would now like to get on to Sam's poetry. And if you are out there and you get a chance to see "Dumb Luck," it's a

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beautiful book put out by BOA Editions. And, Sam, what I would like you to do, because this, this book falls into several different categories that I would love you to read some of the poems that introduce you and where you're coming from,

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they're almost like by biographical poems. Sam Hamill: Well, we'll begin with a poem called "R.I.P." I grew up in in Utah. I'm fond of telling people I was held captive in Utah until I was 15. I was orphaned during World War

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II and adopted by a Utah ranch family and this poem returns to that that time in my life. R.I.P. Lester Taylor's ranch went tits up when the market for range

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beef collapsed. More than forty years have passed, and The Mountain broken up- all for grain-fed beef suffering in standing lots across the heartlands. My father's farm went under when he grew too old to work. The American Century

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passes, leaving behind its corpses and cadavers, its Lester Taylors and Sam Burns Hamills, its sad old Ghost Dance, the demise of the Bar A and thousands like it. We have Cardiac Burgers and cruelty to show for it, fast food, the

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service industry, and little thought of what we order. Poisoned by the Agribiz progress marches right along. They were surrogate fathers to me, those hard men whose hearts must have been carved out of granite to choose such cold, solitary

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duties. If they knew a name for love, I never heard it. Theirs was a beauty known only within the bones, learn from life with animals, animals to tend, animals birthing, dying, refusing to eat or getting stranded in snow in a sudden big

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northern. They loved that other way of life, often enough meaning poverty, expressed in the unstated convictions of all their days. Love's an animal that had no voice, a quick glance at the right moment, or perhaps just a hint of a smile,

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almost unnoticed. A good horse listens to a rider's knees. I learned soon enough to bite my tongue, or face a whipping. What I demanded of them, they too demanded from me. Not love, but respect. I love them always. But I was a fool then; I imitated

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their folly. Morton Marcus: What I like about that poem, it starts off as a poem almost of social commentary, and then moves very, very personally, into a sense of where you're coming from, the

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sense of where you learn to become a man, or what they wanted to teach you about becoming a man. And those thoughts of the man you were becoming suddenly became something else, and they became actually very well said in the

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title of the book. Sam Hamill: Well, these were not people who were given to a lot of words, although my foster father loved poetry, and one of the things that he gave me was a great love for poetry. But they

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also despised what they saw me becoming, they didn't want me to be a poet and they didn't want me to give my life to poetry. They thought that was a kind of ruin. Morton Marcus: Very common attitude with parents,

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especially in those days. Sam Hamill: It's a common attitude from parents these days, I believe. Morton Marcus: Well, let's see what happened to you when you

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were 14. Sam Hamill: Well, I- I guess I was 12 or 13 years old when I discovered more or less living American poets and I was drawn in to the Beat Movement. I came to San Francisco when I was a

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15-year-old and I spent much of my adolescence in and out of jails, trying to escape from Utah and Mormondom and the things that drove me crazy when I was a young man. This poem is called,

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PLAIN DUMB LUCK Forty-two years ago, in the cold pitch black of the hours before dawn, I huddled in a cell in Fredonia, Arizona, rolling cigarettes from a Bull Durham pouch, locked up for the crime

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of being fourteen and homeless. How many nights did I watch the stars through that barred skylight? I no longer remember, with no one to sign me out. There I sat watching the stars, one after the next blinked and burned out, and the sky grew

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inky black until it erased the bars above my head. I smoked in salt. Dawn burned away the clouds and I ate shit on a shingle and the old Sheriff finally came and led me out, telling me, "go back home, son," as if I had any choice at all.

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Home was the road for a kid whose other home was hell. I'd rather steal than taste that belt again. I stole, but none of that matters now. Here in the January dark dawn, two hours below the horizon, forty-two years down the pike. I remember

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that night as clearly as if it were only yesterday. The condemned know why. There were other nights and other cells during those troublesome years. What I had was poetry and blues. Miles played "So What" and "Kind of Blue," Coltrane. Dexter and

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Rexroth got me through. I still have my old Signet "On the Road," tatters and yellowed, but I don't read it anymore. The old man died long ago, and the woman who darkened my days for 45 years, dust. Dust on my boots, a dusty book, all but forgotten on

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the shelf. Everyone knows that story well, but when the man on NPR mentions Fredonia, Arizona, I suddenly realized where I am. My wife sleeps peacefully in the home I built to poverty, poetry and love. Turning off the radio, I sit alone, counting breaths in

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the dark until counting disappears, bowing to the dark itself, surprised to be the luckiest son of a bitch alive. Dennis Morton: That's a beauty. Morton Marcus: Yeah.

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Sam Hamill: Thank you, Dennis Morton: Sam, there's a- the end of line six. "How many nights?" Soon as you read that, it reminded me of [unidentified]'s song. Do you remember? Can you recite

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[unidentified]? Sam Hamill: Oh, I've forgotten that poem. Dennis Morton: Just how many times have- that's one of my favorite poems of yours. I had it- I had it committed to memory

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at one point I Sam Hamill: You know, I don't really revise my poems the way most poets do. I'm a very busy editor and a letterpress printer and a translator of a number of languages. And I've never really

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had time to work on my poems the way I was taught in college. So I memorize my poems as I'm working on them, and then once they go down on the page, they sort of get shuttled out of memory and they become a vague kind of thing from my past. I

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sold my archive a while ago to the Washington State University and the archivist there wrote me and said, "You don't have drafts of your poems," and I said, "I've never had time to do that."

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Morton Marcus: So Sam, are you saying you actually write the poems in your head? Sam Hamill: I write by ear, I work on the poem orally, I say the poem out loud to myself, and it's in my head and in my mouth,

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and in my ear. And when the poem is finished, then I go to the page, and sometimes there'll be a word or two changed, but I don't revise the way we were taught in college. I don't draw circles and arrows and scribble in the margins I- I work

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entirely by ear, Morton Marcus: And that of course, the way Creeley works and the way Hart Crane worked. Sam Hamill: Well, and my old dear friend Denise Levertov also

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worked that way. Dennis Morton: That- that sounds like those stories of the prisoners of war, who taught themselves how to play piano in a cramped cell and had no way to practice but when they got-

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Sam Hamill: I've learned a lot from those people over the years and in a way it's been a great gift. I don't know if it's the only way to go about writing a poem, but it's just the way that's served me.

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Morton Marcus: Well, it you know, it is amazing to hear that. Besides, I was telling you before, these five line stances you use are actually in a form, a Japanese form, called the Tanka, which is a Haiku with two lines of seven syllables added

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to them. Sam Hamill: Well, Tanka is actually a more formal, organized form than what I use. My poem, my rhythm for those five line poems is based on the ancient Japanese Waka, which is

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a more generic term, and it's a musical structure. And I've done a lot of performing with perhaps the world's greatest Shakuhachi bamboo flute player, Christopher Yohmei Blasdel. And we perform these ancient Japanese poems and I read them bilingually in these

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Japanese rhythms. I got those rhythms into my head and into my heart and I found that in writing these poems, which are really centered in the idea of practice, the practice of poetry and the practice of Zen, I found that those rhythms came to me

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naturally and they allowed me to make more prosaic statements than I would normally make in poetry, because the rhythm of the poem progressed and carried these more prosaic statements. Morton Marcus: And this this gets us on to the fact that I

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ask you to read those first two poems because they introduced you, but most of your work actually is in a much different style and is really rooted in what really became part of your adult life, which was the practice of Buddhism.

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Sam Hamill: While Zen practice and practice- practice of poetry for me is is really one practice. Poetry is my path to enlightenment, and as much as I'm moving toward enlightenment, "Dumb Luck" is actually the second volume in what will be a

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trilogy, the first volume was called "Gratitude," and the working title of the third and final volume is "Glory." "Gratitude," "Dumb Luck," and "Glory" seem to me essential elements in Zen practice.

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Morton Marcus: Well, now, I would like you to read some of these poems that you like, that really show some of what I think are these amazingly beautiful melding of an American voice with an Asian clarity and simplicity that really just is

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remarkable. Sam Hamill: Well, here's a kind of a funny poem. A Hollywood producer got hold of me one time and he decided that he wanted to become a poet. And he didn't want to learn anything, he

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didn't want to read anything, he just had- a lot more people interested in being poets than there are people interested in poetry. This poem is called ANOTHER FOOL

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My friend Doug's reading "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones," and admits he doesn't know Zen. "If Zen has no gates," he asks, "how, then, does one pass through?" I tell him, "That's right!" In Thailand, they are appalled, seeing fat Buddhas brought from

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China or Japan. Their Buddha was always lean. I'm no one's teacher, and never have been. Among the 10,000 paths to the Buddha, I follow only one. The flowering dharma seeks its own truest nature, sending roots deep into cultures unknown only

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mere moments before. I sit with ancient sages, but have learned very little. The eagle circling high above these hills knows much more than I, his mantra a plaintive cry to the human ear that hears without perception. Listen, what you hear, and what

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is there are not two. Your teacher's another fool. Be still. Be present. Be here. Morton Marcus: And that last line of three very short sentences really marks a lot of what most of these poems are

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about. Just being present, not making judgments, not making the didactic statements. And when you do make the didactic statements in these poems, you immediately catch yourself up with an ironic and paradoxical ending.

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Sam Hamill: Here's another sort of on the same thing. This poem has a title that comes from Confucius, "Praise A Fool and Make Him Useful." And this is in those five line 5-7-5-7-7 syllabic stanzas that you were talking about.

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PRAISE A FOOL AND MAKE HIM USEFUL Now that I've squandered almost a lifetime going to school on those old dead poets who rabble-roused or retreated into a kind of solitude few can understand- now that I have

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invested forty years in the struggle not to struggle, following the ancient teachings, how astonishing it is, how embarrassing, to wake up some days and feel, well, almost respectable.

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Dennis Morton: Well, you blow that with Poets Against the War, Sam. You're- you're- you're respectable in the eyes of many of us, but I'm sure there are- Sam Hamill: Well, I have to say that I am- I've been a most

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reluctant leader in this movement but it's it's been a remarkable couple of weeks to have 5,000 friends that I didn't know I had, and the people putting up the website, and the incredible press we've had and the response from the American

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public finally rising to speak against this evil administration. Dennis Morton: People were just waiting and you- you said just- just the right thing.

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Morton Marcus: You know, there's supposed to be the balances of the two political parties in this country. And the one political party, the Democrats, have just completely fallen down and collapsed, and it just seemed like the country was

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waiting for someone to say no. Sam Hamill: Well, for the last 20 years, I've- I was a journalism student when I began college in a community college, down in LA, and I've watched the media in this country being

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pushed further and further right. And you see the inventions of things like Fox Television and the rise of of people like Rush Limbaugh and frankly, it's frightening and the assault on our Constitution, to me is far more frightening

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than any threat from any other nation. I see this nation being threatened severely from within, and I love my country. And it's really gratifying to see so many people stand up and speak about what this country has really stood for, until very recently.

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Dennis Morton: Well, I know that on your left and on your right here, there are two people who are full of gratitude that you started that- One, one email launched, so far, 5,400 poems and-

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Morton Marcus: Without intending to- Sam Hamill: Well- Morton Marcus: It's really Wu wei in action, Sam. Sam Hamill: As they say in- in the old Chinese, "the journey of

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1,000 miles begins with a single step." Frankly, I don't see how I could have done any less and I certainly didn't set out to, to become a movement leader. I'm naturally a reclusive and studious poet. I spent most of my life studying ancient Chinese

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and ancient Japanese poetry and trying to live within my practice. And I'm, by nature, basically a shy man and I was thrust on the stage by the White House and now that I'm here, I can't say that I'm sorry. They put me there.

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Dennis Morton: Well, we'll open up the phone lines in just a few minutes, but I think we need to make a couple of announcements, Mort you've got some, and I'll do a few. Morton Marcus: Okay. First of all, this program is supported

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in part by our community of contributing listeners and we thank them for their support always. Tonight at nine o'clock "From the Bookshelf" will have Host Gary Shapiro welcome author Carter Wilson, reading an original story. That's the great

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Carter Wilson, wonderful, wonderful prose writer. Don't miss "From the Bookshelf" then at nine o'clock tonight. I would also like to tell people of course that Sam will be reading tomorrow at 7:30 at Cabrillo College in room 508. However, at

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the same time, as the way these things go, Robert Sward is going to be reading from his new book and also selling new audios that he's made of his reading poetry at that same time 7:30 at the Capitola Book Cafe. So-

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Dennis Morton: That's one of those unfortunate conflicts- Morton Marcus: One of those unfortunate conflicts, yes. Which, of course, was arranged months and months ago, as was Sam

00:31:47.190 - 00:32:02.100

Sam Hamill: Robert Sward is a friend of mine, and a very fine writer and it's unfortunate that he ran into this political buzz, just just by mere chance. Morton Marcus: Yeah, you know, it's- It is but he is taking it

00:32:02.100 - 00:32:08.430

with great aplomb. Sam Hamill: And I'm sure that he will be speaking for all of us during his reading. Morton Marcus: I bet he will, I'll bet one of the things he'll

00:32:08.430 - 00:32:22.660

say is, "I'm sorry, I'm not there." Dennis Morton: Yeah. I also need to let folks know that the National Writers Union, local number seven presents Ed Jarvis and John Schatz reading on Friday, February the 14th at 7pm

00:32:23.050 - 00:32:40.360

at Thunderbird Bookstore 3600, The Barnyard in Carmel. That's on February the 14th. Friday at 7pm, Ed Jarvis and John Schatz. There aren't a lot of rock drummer librarians floating The regular second Tuesday reading of "Poetry Santa Cruz"

00:32:40.360 - 00:32:59.920

at Bookshop Santa Cruz will appen as usual on the 11th of ebruary at 7:30pm. We're going o have Sarah Arvio, a [unid ntified] poet, and Mort and Sam you may have seen the piec that Ed Hirsch wrote on her ne book in "The Washington

00:32:59.950 - 00:33:13.240

Post" just recently it wa posted on "Poetry Daily," and r ading with Sarah Arvio will be local poet, she's a ro k drummer, a librarian and, and a fine poet, Patti Siren . That'l

00:33:16.090 - 00:33:20.470

around. No, not many, so here's your chance. Sam Hamill: Yeah. Dennis Morton: All right, so-

00:33:20.420 - 00:33:36.290

Morton Marcus: And just one more thing, coming much, much later on March 22 will be a reading here as part of an international set of readings of Lysistrata, the great play by Aristophanes about how women stop war. And that will be done here, from the

00:33:36.290 - 00:33:47.840

announcement I got on March 22 at the Louden Nelson, but we'll have much more of that in the weeks to come. Dennis Morton: Right. So now we're going to give the phone numbers and give listeners an opportunity to call in and ask

00:33:47.840 - 00:34:01.400

Sam questions. And Sam's got plenty of poems to read until we get that first phone call. So I know one number, Mort, its 476-2800. Can you see the 800 number there? Morton Marcus: Of course. Do I have it in my mind?

00:34:01.430 - 00:34:07.640

Dennis Morton: Yeah. What is it then? Morton Marcus: Why, it's 1-888-549- Dennis Morton: No- Morton Marcus: 6421

00:34:07.670 - 00:34:13.740

Dennis Morton: I think, is that- do we have a new number now for the- Morton Marcus: Isn't that the listener comment line? That's what I just said, but supposedly, it's not the right

00:34:12.570 - 00:34:29.120

Dennis Morton: No, that's the listener comment, we- it's an one. 800 number. It's 1-800-4- let's see, I'll get 1-888-549-6421. That's the wrong one. What I'm going to do is go and get the

00:34:29.120 - 00:34:44.120

right number and if any calls come in- if you're in the Santa Cruz area, you can call 476-2800. And we'll give you the 800 number in just a second. And while we're waiting for that call, Sam's got another poem to read.

00:34:44.120 - 00:34:57.650

Morton Marcus: Absolutely. Sam Hamill: I want to read a poem that was, for me, very politically clarifying. It was just one of those moments in my life when I realized what really mattered to me. This poem came

00:34:57.650 - 00:35:18.960

to me the morning of the attack on the WTC. It's called THE NEW YORK POEM I sit in the dark, not brooding exactly, not waiting for the dawn that is just beginning at six-twenty-one, in gray October

00:35:18.960 - 00:35:43.140

light behind the trees. I sit, breathing, mind turning on its wheel. Hayden writes, "What use is poetry in times like these?" And I suppose, I understand when he says, "A poet simply cannot comprehend any meaning in such slaughter." Nevertheless, in the

00:35:43.140 - 00:36:07.320

grip of horror, I turn to poetry, not prose, to help me come to terms- such as can be- with the lies, murders, and breathtaking hypocrisies of those who would lead a nation or a church. "What use is poetry?" I sat down September 12, 2001 in

00:36:07.320 - 00:36:31.830

the Common Era, and read Rumi and kissed the ground. And now that millions starve in the name of Holy War? Every war is holy. It is the same pathetic story from which we derive "biblical proportion." I hear Pilate’s footsteps ring on cobblestone,

00:36:32.340 - 00:36:55.590

the voice of Joe McCarthy cursing in the Senate, Little Boy exploding as the whole sky shudders. In New York City, the crashes and subsequent collapses created seismic waves. To begin to speak of the dead, of the dying, how can a poet speak of

00:36:55.590 - 00:37:21.210

proportion any more at all? Yet as the old Greek said, "We walk on the faces of the dead." The dark fall sky grows blue. Alone among ash and bones and ruins, Tu Fu and Basho write the poem. The last trace of blind rage fades and a mute sadness settles

00:37:21.210 - 00:37:46.910

in, like dust, for the long, long haul. But if I do not get up and sing, if I do not get up and dance again, the savages will win. I'll kiss the sword that kills me if I must. Dennis Morton: That was, that must have been about the time

00:37:46.910 - 00:38:05.760

that Hayden Carruth's birthday party was being celebrated. Sam Hamill: Hayden's actually, his birthday is in, is in August. This was- I began working on that poem that day after the attack on the World Trade Center, it finally sort of

00:38:05.760 - 00:38:18.230

clarified and congealed a month later. Dennis Morton: I think we've got a call. Is that right? Morton Marcus: This is well, it's, um, we were just to announce some- I guess what the opening letter someone must've

00:38:18.710 - 00:38:36.410

just tuned in at that point, the opening letter that Sam was reading, it was written, I guess, and can be found on "poetsagainstthewar.org" and is by W.S. Merwin. That's the last name that you'd look up on that website is M-E-R-W-I-N, W.S.

00:38:37.190 - 00:39:04.000

Merwin. So that's an answer to a call that came in. Dennis Morton: All right. Well, I've got the numbers now. So I'll read them 476-2800 or 1-800-655-5877. That's 1-800-655-5877. If you're in the Santa Cruz area, 476-2800, do

00:39:04.000 - 00:39:18.400

phone in, ask Sam a question if you care to. And while we're waiting for that first call, Sam, feel free to just pick another poem and read for us. Looks like we've got a call coming in.

00:39:20.040 - 00:39:36.430

Morton Marcus: How about one of these small Haiku-? Dennis Morton: We may not have a chance to get started on that one. Morton Marcus: Maybe one of the 15 stitches and then we'll go

00:39:36.430 - 00:39:47.440

right to the phone. Sam Hamill: Let me read these back-to-back Haiku, written for the birth of the daughter of a friend of mine, its called ALL HERE

00:39:48.340 - 00:40:08.350

For Ella Addison Wiegers, born November 1999. Body of dew, mind of empty sky- the prelude and the afterword. Under bare willows, pond frogs sing about old age while girls dream of princes.

00:40:10.970 - 00:40:24.590

Dennis Morton: Teresa, do we have a call? All right. Are we on? Caller? Hello? Hello? Caller? Unknown: Yeah, you hear me now? Dennis Morton: Yes.

00:40:24.690 - 00:40:40.710

Unknown: Yeah, I just want to say that it's really good that this poet turned down the J.W.B. administration, I think it signifies, you know, defiance which definitely needs to happen if this country to take back what it had, so I think it's

00:40:40.710 - 00:40:52.420

great. So keep on rockin and that's all. Sam Hamill: Thanks, was there a question buried in there somewhere? Unknown: No question, just compliments, I think for myself,

00:40:52.420 - 00:41:08.480

so I don't have any questions but uh- Sam Hamill: One of- one of the subjects of the Laura Bush conference on poetry was Walt Whitman. Let me tell you a very short poem of Whitman's that I think exemplifies our attitude

00:41:08.480 - 00:41:23.180

on this subject. It's called: TO THE STATES To the states or any of them, or any city of the States, resist much, obey little. Once unquestioning obedience, once

00:41:23.180 - 00:41:40.110

fully enslaved. Once fully enslaved, no nation, state, city of this earth, ever afterward resumes its liberty. Dennis Morton: Alright, caller are you still there? Unknown: I'm still there. That's very true. Very true. It's sad

00:41:40.110 - 00:41:54.330

that we're almost in a sense of totalitarianism and the cynicism that we feel as citizens, just as a humdrum of just, you know, it is this administration is, you know, pulling the wool over our eyes and nobody's- everybody's too scared, it

00:41:54.330 - 00:42:05.370

almost seems like there's some type of super ego from the Freudian principle. Nobody wants to say anything. In a sense, we lost our enchantment, we're more disenchanted with society, and we're lost.

00:42:05.790 - 00:42:15.990

Sam Hamill: If more people read our constitution and if more people stood up for our constitution, we'd have a greater understanding of what it means to be a patriot. Unknown: That is true.

00:42:16.860 - 00:42:22.580

Dennis Morton: Well, thank you very much. Morton Marcus: Thanks for the call, caller. Unknown: Oh, yeah. Good luck. Thanks a lot. Dennis Morton: All right. Spread the word.

00:42:22.730 - 00:42:39.410

Unknown: Yeah, yeah. Bye. Dennis Morton: Bye. All right, let us spread the phone numbers here. 1-800-655-5877 or 476-2800. If you'd like to ask a question of Sam Hamill, or just speak to Sam. And while we're

00:42:39.410 - 00:42:56.770

waiting for that next call, I know there are a number of short poems in there, Sam, that we could use to bridge the gap. Sam Hamill: Let me read a poem or two by the 11th century Japanese poet, Saigyo, who as I used to, lived his life in

00:42:56.770 - 00:43:17.470

solitude for the most part. These are Waka, those little five line poems from the great ancient Japanese tradition. No one visits here, in my mountain hut, where I live alone. But for this sweet loneliness, it would be too

00:43:17.470 - 00:43:25.670

bleak to bear. Dennis Morton: Sweet loneliness Morton Marcus: I love the one that starts out "He whose heart," which is right- right there.

00:43:26.350 - 00:43:41.590

Sam Hamill: He whose heart and soul are at one with the great void, steps into the mist and suddenly thinks himself, stepping right out of this world. Dennis Morton: Sam, I understand you had quite a harvest of stone

00:43:41.590 - 00:43:49.690

fruit back your- your way this year? Sam Hamill: Which? Dennis Morton: Stone fruit? You had quite a harvest this year? Sam Hamill: Yeah, we did. We did.

00:43:49.780 - 00:43:56.020

Dennis Morton: Where is that poem? Sam Hamill: I don't know where it is. It'll take me a minute to find it. Dennis Morton: I'll try to find it.

00:43:56.000 - 00:44:12.930

Sam Hamill: Thank you. While he's looking for that poem, let me tell you another Saigyō poem. Deep within the mountains, the mind's moon brightly shines. Its light mirroring all things everywhere, itself mirrored in

00:44:12.930 - 00:44:21.870

the enlightened mind. Dennis Morton: All right, we found the poem about, about the great harvest Sam Hamill: ASSAY

00:44:23.370 - 00:44:38.870

The sum of this year's harvest after all the deer, one perfect red plum. That was actually last year, this year I didn't quite even get one. They- they eat them before they're ripe and I live

00:44:38.870 - 00:44:56.060

in the woods, a little south of Port Townsend, Washington on the Olympic Peninsula, in a house I built myself, and I have these two plum trees. I don't know why I keep the plum trees, they attract the deer who devour my Japanese garden. One plum from

00:44:56.060 - 00:45:07.420

the two plum trees per year is actually a pretty good year. Dennis Morton: Well- Morton Marcus: Let me give the numbers out there again, people who want to call in, we are calling in and we are talking

00:45:07.420 - 00:45:29.080

with Sam Hamill tonight, the editor of Copper Canyon Press, the great poet and translator. And we see that we've got another call coming in, which is great, but I will give you the numbers, they're 476-2800 or 1-800-655-5877. So let us take

00:45:29.080 - 00:45:39.130

this call if it is coming in right now. Dennis Morton: It looks like it will be imminent. Teresa, do we have a call there? All right. Morton Marcus: Here we go.

00:45:39.400 - 00:45:55.090

Dennis Morton: Caller? All right. Caller, are you there? Morton Marcus: Hello, caller? [Busy signal] Dennis Morton: We hear evidence of- Sam Hamill: The caller is busy [Laughter]

00:45:55.090 - 00:46:07.270

Dennis Morton: Evidence of an attempt anyway. We're- We three are pretty mechanical here, aren't we? Let's give those numbers again- Sam Hamill: "James Louis, get away from that wheelbarrow, you

00:46:07.270 - 00:46:26.350

knows you don't know nothing about machinery." [Laughter] Morton Marcus: The numbers again are 476-2800. Dennis Morton: How do we get that noise to stop? Morton Marcus: There we go, 476-2800 is the local number and

00:46:26.350 - 00:46:45.400

the other number, long distance number, is 1-800-655-5877. And while we're waiting, and another call is coming in. Sam is going to yet read another short poem. And the last poem you read, by the way, was a perfect Haiku.

00:46:46.650 - 00:47:04.800

Sam Hamill: Thank you. This poem is called, "The Orchid Flower." A friend gave me a tiny orchid several years ago. I'd never tried to grow an orchid before, I have a lot of bonsai on my back porch in my house in the woods, but growing an orchid was

00:47:04.800 - 00:47:18.330

a new experience. And I had this flower for a couple of years, and I had just about made up my mind that it was dead. THE ORCHID FLOWER Just as I wonder whether it's going to die, the orchid

00:47:18.390 - 00:47:42.720

blossoms and I can't explain why it moves my heart, why such pleasure comes from one small bud on a long spindly stem, one blood red gold flower opening at mid-summer, tiny, perfect in its hour. Even to a white-haired craggy poet, it's purely erotic,

00:47:43.290 - 00:48:04.950

pistil and stamen, pollen, dew of the world, a spoonful of earth and water. Erotic because there's death at the heart of birth, drama in those old sunrise prisms in wet cedar boughs, deepest mystery in washing evening dishes, or

00:48:04.950 - 00:48:17.090

teasing my wife, who grows, yes, more beautiful, because one of us will die. Morton Marcus: Those are really great last lines that you- The paradoxes-

00:48:17.090 - 00:48:24.980

Sam Hamill: We're busy again Dennis Morton: Do we have a caller on the line? All right, well, let's take that call. Caller? Unknown: Hello?

00:48:25.040 - 00:48:34.670

Dennis Morton: Hello, Morton Marcus: Here we go. Hi, caller. Unknown: I didn't know what was happening with the phone. I wanted to, first of all, express my gratitude for the sequence of

00:48:34.670 - 00:48:53.690

events that sort of led to this point of poetic rejection of the war. I know it wasn't just your doing, it was- but my question to you is, how did Laura Bush choose you for the symposium? Sam Hamill: Well,

00:48:53.690 - 00:49:10.320

Unknown: I mean why, why was it that she would invite you? Sam Hamill: That is the great strange question to me. I've been involved in left-leaning causes all my life. I ran for California State Assembly in 1968 on a socialist platform and

00:49:11.340 - 00:49:29.160

worked very hard for the Clean Gene McCarthy campaign. I spent 25 years working with battered women and children. I taught in prisons for 14 years. I'm the editor of the Selected Poems of Tom McGrath, who was a lifelong socialist, an old friend of

00:49:29.160 - 00:49:42.330

Denise Levertov's and Adrienne Rich's, and I've been a leftist all my life. How I got in the White House list, simply baffles me. Morton Marcus: Well, I can take a stab at it, Sam. First of all,

00:49:42.330 - 00:49:53.820

they didn't do their homework. Secondly- Sam Hamill: It speaks volumes about White House intelligence. Morton Marcus: But at the same time, what they wanted to do, and we should really make this very clear, is get an eminent

00:49:53.910 - 00:50:11.010

poet, as well as an eminent publisher editor, from the West Coast, so that they would have a sense of the whole national picture. And I think that that's why it happened. Sam Hamill: I think it was a feeble attempt to kind of co-opt

00:50:11.490 - 00:50:28.770

American literary figures. Among other poets, by the way, who rejected invitations to the White House are Galway Kinnell and Philip Levine and it's a very long list of people who- who either reject- In fact, Phil Levine complained to one of the

00:50:28.770 - 00:50:42.270

newspapers, that he didn't get a chance to reject his invitation, all of this happened so quickly, they canceled the program before he could even decline to appear. Unknown: Yeah, that was my second question was, if you were

00:50:42.270 - 00:50:58.740

the- who else was invited, and I guess they didn't get anybody. Sam Hamill: Well, I know a couple of poets who were basically planning on attending. Naomi Shihab Nye, the Palestinian-American poet was planning on going and Marilyn

00:50:58.740 - 00:51:12.660

Nelson, who's an old friend of mine and a wonderful black poet, the Poet Laureate of Connecticut, was planning on going. She had a scarf printed with various kinds of peace symbols, and had written a protest poem which she planned

00:51:12.660 - 00:51:25.920

to deliver in person. The anthologist, David Layman was planning on attending. But other than that, I think the people that I've heard mostly from were fellow poets who had no intention of going.

00:51:26.460 - 00:51:37.150

Unknown: Well, I wanted to thank you for your work. Sam Hamill: Thank you for your support. I don't know of a single poet in America, frankly, who lends any support to this administration.

00:51:37.380 - 00:51:53.670

Unknown: Right, oh, I know. It's incredible but now I think there's a movement that's hard to ignore. Sam Hamill: I hope so. I hope so. I hope this is the first step in removing these people from office and returning to a

00:51:53.670 - 00:51:59.200

constitutional America. Unknown: Right. Thank you so much. Sam Hamill: Thank you for calling. Morton Marcus: Thanks a lot, caller.

00:51:59.630 - 00:52:18.350

Dennis Morton: Let's read those numbers again, 1-800-655-5877, 476-2800, if you'd like to speak with Sam Hamill, who's our guest tonight on the Poetry Show. I think we've got another caller on the line right now. Let's- let's see, with our high tech

00:52:18.350 - 00:52:26.140

operation, Teresa- Morton Marcus: While that's happening, because Teresa sort of fields it- could you just read another Haiku? Dennis Morton: Is there a short one?

00:52:26.260 - 00:52:47.290

Morton Marcus: There are so many in here. Sam Hamill: All right. Let me return again to Saigyo, wonderful, ancient Japanese poet. I'd like to divide myself in order to see among these

00:52:47.290 - 00:53:00.240

mountains each and every flower of every cherry tree. Dennis Morton: Oh, that's beautiful, god. Do we have another caller? Hello, caller? Unknown: Hi. I'm here.

00:53:00.510 - 00:53:17.200

Dennis Morton: All right. Unknown: Um, first off, I just want to thank you for your beautiful poetry. I'm so moved by it and its simplicity and I'm fascinated by the fact that the poets aren't supporting our

00:53:17.200 - 00:53:33.340

current administration, and I just wanted to share something that happened with me this evening. I was having a conversation with a man who'd been a Marine, and he was in his 70s, and a young man who had never been to war in his 40s,

00:53:33.340 - 00:53:52.240

and me being a liberal, I'm trying to explain my opinion about the war. And what I witnessed was really- the woman in the kitchen my aunt, who's a wise woman, quickly when politics were mentioned she exited, and I was left with

00:53:52.240 - 00:54:06.670

these two men and I was hesitant to speak my voice with them. I found I was being real reticent and letting them speak. And of course, we have the old Marine who feels war is necessary, and the young man who believes that Saddam Hussein has to be

00:54:06.670 - 00:54:23.020

stopped. And as a woman, it was hard for me to express my voice and I find that politics is so sneered at these days, and everyone's so afraid to ruffle feathers, that there's not a lot of truth being said, and I feel really bad about it because I

00:54:23.020 - 00:54:40.340

feel that propaganda has taken over these people's minds and there's no real consciousness. Sam Hamill: Well, I agree with you, I think- I think the most civilized faction of America has been pushed almost into silence

00:54:40.340 - 00:54:58.460

by a very belligerent and, and rude, right wing in this country. My own pacifism, frankly, was born during my own four years in the United States Marine Corps, as was my- my Zen practice. And much of what I've learned, it's been most of value

00:54:58.460 - 00:55:13.970

to me as a poet and as a man, comes through the 25 years I spent working with battered women and children, who are people who have no voice. And it's- the time spent with the voiceless and the incarcerated and the oppressed in this

00:55:13.970 - 00:55:29.720

country that made me want to continue my path, it made me want to be a poet. And I'm not ordinarily a terribly political poet, but what you say moves me very deeply and I think you're absolutely right. Because we tend to be a little better

00:55:29.720 - 00:55:40.410

behaved than the right wing, we've allowed them to silence us all too often. Morton Marcus: Can I say something, anyone who calls in, can you turn your radio down, because we get sort of an echo,

00:55:40.650 - 00:56:00.690

in the back here- But I'd lik to say something here mys lf, that Marine who is 70 yea s old- I am a veteran and man other veterans of Korea and Vie nam that I know of are very mu h opposed to this war and we ar asking the question, es

00:56:00.720 - 00:56:14.670

ecially the old Korean vets, wh t did we all do it for? What wa it really all about to that ha gotten us to this point? And we don't want the young people to go over there. I was a ve eran against the war in Vi tnam and I'm obviously going to

00:56:14.670 - 00:56:29.210

be a veteran against the war, sh uld we get into it, with Hu sein, at this point. Sam Hamill: Even Schwarzkopf spoke out recently against Donald Rumsfeld's passion for- for getting us into a war. There

00:56:29.210 - 00:56:44.360

are a number of formal generals of the Marine Corps in the army who have- who have spoken out against this war. So the assumption that because one is a veteran, as I am also, that we would support such a thing, it's ludicrous.

00:56:44.960 - 00:57:00.170

Dennis Morton: I wonder if our caller is still on the line. Hello? Alright, so I think let's see, I think we've got another call coming in, though. And we have really only a few minutes left. We've got about two minutes on the show. Teresa, is

00:57:00.170 - 00:57:08.750

there another call? Alright. Hello, caller? Hello, caller? Unknown: Hello? Dennis Morton: Hello. Unknown: Hello Hello

00:57:08.810 - 00:57:21.000

Dennis Morton: Yes. Unknown: Oh good. I'm wondering, what it is that has drawn Sam to the ancient Chinese poetry. What is it about it that is so attractive to him? I'm quite interested in the subject, I'd

00:57:21.000 - 00:57:45.240

like to learn his view. Sam Hamill: and to pretend that the history of poetry is a European undertaking, as most Americans seem to believe, is absurd. I've spent several years living in Japan, here and there

00:57:45.240 - 00:58:05.940

along the way. Part of what appeals to me is the simplicity and the clarity of those voices, and how under that sort of superficial simplicity, there is a depth of clarity that I find just incredibly refreshing. They've been my teachers both-

00:58:06.270 - 00:58:12.840

both morally and literarily. Unknown: Thank you very much. Sam Hamill: Thank you for calling. Unknown: God bless you, sir.

00:58:13.350 - 00:58:26.940

Sam Hamill: Thank you. Dennis Morton: Well, Sam, we've got about one minute left. People are going to have another opportunity to hear you tomorrow evening at Cabrillo College in room 508 at 7:30. And you will

00:58:26.940 - 00:58:41.370

be in the company of Joseph Stroud, and the esteemed Adrienne Rich. Sam Hamill: Well, everyone knows about Adrienne Rich, who's one of the great poets of our time. Let me say this about Joseph

00:58:41.370 - 00:58:58.440

Stroud, who I also consider to be one of the very finest writers in this country today. He is one of the perhaps least known, most accomplished poets of my generation and it's an honor and a privilege to be his editor and his friend and to

00:58:58.440 - 00:59:08.790

read with him tomorrow night. Dennis Morton: All right! Well, Mort? Morton Marcus: I'm afraid, the people are calling in, we can't take any more calls because we are out of time on the Poetry

00:59:08.790 - 00:59:17.820

Show. Sam, thank you so much for being here and reading your poetry and talking to us about Poets Against the War. Sam Hamill: Thank you for having me. Dennis Morton: We will take this call off the air though, so if

00:59:17.820 - 00:59:30.250

the caller will hold on, Sam will be able to talk with you in just a few minutes and stay tuned for "From the Bookshelf Morton Marcus: "From the Bookshelf," which tonight has the wonderful Carter Wilson reading one of his own short

00:59:30.250 - 00:59:40.210

stories. So this is Morton Marcus, Dennis Morton: And Dennis Morton, And this has been the Poetry Show. We'll see you next week at eight o'clock. And again, Sam Hamill, thank you so much.

00:59:40.000 - 00:59:40.930

Sam Hamill: Thank you.