00:00:21.900 - 00:00:36.620

Unknown: Because it's easiest, shortest and easiest to take care of. First of all, what was the last record that he himself titled Okay, well, what's the last record that is out that he has titled himself

00:00:48.940 - 00:01:08.820

Yeah. Well, did he title expression? That's his title. Yeah, that would be the last one that he titled. Yeah, all right, okay. Because somebody that's all right, I understand that. I just

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mean of the ones that are released and the people would know about it, some, some people have said that his philosophy, in his philosophy, he wasn't aware of social problems, social contradictions. You think it's ridiculous.

00:01:31.700 - 00:01:44.440

That made because he was very conscious war, war. Talked about war, even the Japanese how he felt about the tradition. Yeah.

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I remember on ohm, he chants, oh God, may there be peace and love and perfection for all mankind, several times. So that would mean me that he was aware of those problems. You know, could you know anything about his religious background? When he

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was a child, was he raised in the church, and so I think he used to go to his mother's church. And do you know what Baptist

00:02:27.680 - 00:02:51.040

Methodist? Yeah, I was going to say that his, all of his statements are very religious in nature. And he, I was, it seems as if he himself were a preacher in a secular sense. I don't mean in

00:02:51.040 - 00:03:06.540

church, obviously, but he was a preacher like figure, yeah. And I guess it's because he represented the kind of things that people, you know, strive for in life, you know, to be better, peaceful. Be

00:03:06.780 - 00:03:20.540

peaceful. You know, all those spiritual things. This is what he represented. Well. It's also true in many African societies that the most important person, or the person whose teachings are most listened to, is the

00:03:20.540 - 00:03:37.520

preacher. And this struck me that there was a similarity here too, that is in terms of John being a very important figure and being essentially a preacher like figure, or a minister like figure, a religious figure. I guess I think it's because

00:03:41.540 - 00:04:00.540

he was aware of the spirituality throughout his music and throughout his existence, that he was, you know, that he concentrated on, you know, you know, bringing out that quality, that expression, that aspect of

00:04:00.540 - 00:04:13.800

himself in terms of musical influences. Did he listen to a lot of African music? I know he was interested in it, but I don't know whether I never thought to ask him whether he actually

00:04:13.800 - 00:04:36.140

listened to a great deal of it. He listened to Chinese music, Indian, African, Japanese music. So he really was very cosmopolitan, kind of a universal figure. In that sense. One of the reasons I was curious

00:04:36.140 - 00:04:49.900

about African music in particular was because it seems to me that the kind of change he brought about in the music generally, was to make it more polyrhythmic, to keep more rhythmic lines going at once than was true before he

00:04:49.960 - 00:05:12.840

established his own music. You can. Words. What I was asking was, it seems to me that his music was more polyrhythmic than anything that was happening before he was there different different time signatures being

00:05:12.840 - 00:05:29.960

played or implied like, you know, that's what. That's why I asked about Africa, because, because African music, especially West African music, is like that. One guy will be playing a five, seven, another

00:05:29.960 - 00:05:42.580

guy will be playing a 916, and somebody else be playing a four. And I was trying to receive if that was an idea that he had consciously derived from listening to African music, or whether it was something he worked out for himself

00:05:42.580 - 00:05:58.420

independently. Well, I think the rhythmic thing was a part of him. I don't think, because it's not that pronounced or defined in any other, any other culture that I know of, to say, like to take

00:05:58.420 - 00:06:24.320

any of the Eastern cultures, the Eastern music. Eastern music, there's not the definition of the mixed rhythm. You know, most defined beats. I mean, you can count, you know, they're measured, you know. But his music, I think he found the

00:06:24.320 - 00:06:41.020

rhythmic thing, you know. I think this, he found out, you know. I think it came from within him. In fact, I'm positive, you know, because, you know, after I got into an understanding of what he was doing, that I knew that it was

00:06:41.020 - 00:06:56.680

coming from within the person. They have to establish these, you know, these things, these rhythmic things. Now it seems as if many groups are playing that way, the way that, that he established,

00:06:58.000 - 00:07:20.720

yeah, well, it was, I think this is, I think this always happens if one person makes an important discovery or important finding and losing Dennis, you know, it should be, you know, it's usually followed by many people, because it's becomes like a way

00:07:20.840 - 00:07:37.220

you know another way of life. You know, you know another step in music. And this is what I think happened with John, why so many people like it's really almost a standard way of playing now, nowadays, you know, whereas when he first, you know, when he

00:07:37.220 - 00:07:53.920

first began playing like that, you know, there were so many people, including musicians, aren't ready. Another way that the music seems to be polyrhythmic is that now there are it's gone away from the concept of a soloist and a

00:07:53.920 - 00:08:12.300

rhythm section. You may have several people playing at once. I mean, several horns even, yeah, and this is really when a person can get like, I feel that the music is so mental and so spiritual that it's really, it's

00:08:12.300 - 00:08:35.900

like a whole, it's like, it's like encompassing the whole human, The whole trauma, or the whole scheme, the whole universal psych, you know what I mean. And in the mind, the mind is really where man can really investigate and venture and move

00:08:35.900 - 00:08:49.360

into realm where, you know, he can go with his can't Welch in his body, but in the mind, he can, like, encompass the universe, you know? So, like, the music is, this is where it is.

00:08:50.620 - 00:09:12.000

It's in the middle. Yeah, when, when I interviewed Albert after John's funeral service, he was saying much the same thing. It was universal, because it did deal in that spiritual way. The one thing I guess I would say, is it doesn't seem like there's

00:09:12.000 - 00:09:29.480

much basis in European music for what Johannes did most European music is the weakest element of harmony, rhythm in every week, but it's still, oh, it is there, sure, sure. Like, I don't think you can exclude any aspect of

00:09:29.480 - 00:09:50.500

race and cultures on this, this planet. You know what I mean? Like, I don't feel that like the harmony has a place. You know, true things dissonant have a place. You know, however you you know Weldon, you know there's a place for all, all the cultures.

00:09:50.860 - 00:10:09.300

Oh, sure, what all I what I really meant was that, if you had to analyze and break it down in terms of where it came from, it seems like perhaps less of it came from Europe than came from. And the rest of the world, that's okay. What I said was, if

00:10:09.300 - 00:10:22.220

you analyzed and broke it down, it just seemed to me like less of it came from European roots and came from that doesn't mean that. Well, the roots, yeah, the basic ideas, the basic forces. Why did you have to move east. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

00:10:22.220 - 00:10:39.020

Because, like, like, I think all of our beginnings, like the most ancient music, had to start in Egypt somewhere, or Africa, somewhere, some place in the east the most ancient, right? And I believe that the music at that point had to be, had to be

00:10:39.080 - 00:10:52.720

free, had to be because they hadn't really got into organization, you know, whereas when they got into culture, then got into organization, they got into chords and they got into form and all these various things. But I think you have to

00:10:52.720 - 00:11:11.460

go and trace the most ancient development of music, and then come, then you come up to, you know Western culture well. It seems maybe that musicians now are more inspired by the ancient approach.

00:11:12.960 - 00:11:31.040

In order to trace your roots of anything, you have to go back. I think if when we go east, when we visit the east, I mean, I think we can even trace the whole culture, the whole beginnings of man. Is

00:11:34.640 - 00:11:53.140

that tied in with your interest in Eastern religion, I'd like to get into your own ideas. Now, if that's okay, one of the things that I'm interested in, of course, that I asked John was whether music has any social or political

00:11:53.140 - 00:12:05.400

implications. I'd like to get your views on that. No, no, just music. There may be some musicians to may feel that their music is then it

00:12:08.640 - 00:12:21.680

makes a political statement, let's say. But none of John's music and none of my music either. I don't like, I don't, you know, I sympathize with the condition because, like, I feel

00:12:21.680 - 00:12:49.000

that definitely has got to be a change. Has to be changed in this present way of life. But music, music is too spiritual to you making your music inspiring people to do spiritual so don't

00:12:49.000 - 00:13:07.500

bring it down to material. Don't bring it down to matter. That doesn't mean that you aren't concerned sometimes, though, with material things like the things we mentioned when I asked you whether John was aware of social problems,

00:13:07.500 - 00:13:25.520

and you said, yeah, he was very aware of war and everything, the whole race thing. It might be that some of that concern expresses itself amusing without a person being conscious of it. Of course, it was the

00:13:25.520 - 00:13:40.820

sadness, the thing that you would experience. I think you go through all that. I think that in the final, final stages of his evolution, it didn't even have traces of Batista. Because once you transcend, transcend, you don't go back. How you gonna

00:13:40.820 - 00:13:51.820

walk backwards. If you're transcending, you're not looking back. When you're transcending, you're going over the top. So like I feel that when his music came out to such a level, it didn't matter. And your music,

00:13:54.040 - 00:14:21.980

oh, my music. Well, my music, I don't there's nothing, and it has to do nothing. Anything made out of a material, and at least if you consciously it doesn't, you said there would have to be a change that would come about. And then,

00:14:22.700 - 00:14:37.040

do you think that musicians should be involved in any way in attempting to bring about that change? If they can do something useful, they should, you know, if they feel that they can make a definite change, they should no

00:14:37.040 - 00:14:55.660

because there's some people who have that, like some people have certain qualities, and they work better in some capacities, those who work well in a capacity like that, should, you know, the people who don't have that kind of makeup structure should do

00:14:56.080 - 00:15:17.220

should work in some other area? They would be being false to themselves if. They attempted to play that kind of work. What can I ask you? What do you think is the role of Eastern

00:15:17.220 - 00:15:38.720

religious beliefs in the new music? I think that the fact that fact that the East kept a lot of the wisdom, a lot of wisdom of spiritual spirituality, like the ancient scriptures, all these stuff, has been preserved throughout

00:15:40.580 - 00:15:59.500

centuries, and like in the east, it seems to me that people stayed more concerned with that kind of growth, as opposed to in this country, you know, industry, capitalism, and all the various things that make up a so called sophisticated

00:15:59.740 - 00:16:16.980

society, whereas over there, they were more concerned with the soul aspect than vice versa, and many musicians and then are, I guess you could say, in revolt against that aspect of this country that is puts greater

00:16:16.980 - 00:16:43.600

stress on material things and are more concerned with the soul things. Well, I in the new music. I guess that there must be many musicians who are more concerned with the soul things. I talked, we talked earlier about, I feel about group

00:16:43.600 - 00:16:55.000

improvisation, and we agreed that it was, seemed to be happening a lot now, where everybody was, can you think of why it's happening now, and it didn't happen as much, say, 10 years ago, it

00:16:55.000 - 00:17:09.960

hadn't been tested and had been proven. And these things happen. He's the one that brought it out. And this is why it's happening today. I don't think that they're doing it just because,

00:17:10.680 - 00:17:28.280

you know, it's something to do. It's a very realness, and it's just something that the person has to experience, sort of like fellowship together and sort of communication together. I don't know if you've ever been had closeness with people. Yes,

00:17:28.340 - 00:17:43.240

really dig and yes, feel something from them. They've Yes, something from you. And it's just the interchange and the interplay of love, you know, and peace and all of these things. And this is what's happening in the music when we

00:17:43.240 - 00:18:03.360

all at one time could force that entire energy is just, well, it seems like it's an experience. It's much more communal, it seems like to me, where you're less concerned with each individual and is being a solo performer than you are with

00:18:03.360 - 00:18:20.840

the group having a life of its own. It's more concerned with the group expression. That's what I said, more concerned with the group expression, and less concerned with each individual having to be a star

00:18:21.080 - 00:18:31.100

and having all the attention focused on that you see you that's a certain like, don't take you can't be like, I wouldn't take away the aspect of soloist, because this is like,

00:18:32.540 - 00:18:51.820

his personal experience. What I mean is, 10 years ago, it used to be like you had the soloist up here. It used to be like, what I meant by that was it used to be that the soloist, all the attention was on the soloist,

00:18:51.820 - 00:19:08.280

and very little attention was on the remainder of the group. And now it seems like people are more concerned with the group. Yeah, they should. If you're watching a movie or a piece of art, you wouldn't your attention. Couldn't. How could

00:19:08.280 - 00:19:25.160

it be total if you only focused on one aspect, one spine on the paper, on the picture, you know you've got to this is the thing that, I think, where this music is going to play an important role. You have got to open your hearing to the point where you

00:19:25.220 - 00:19:41.740

encompass the whole, the total you know, not a small piece of power. You have to encompass the total expression. And this isn't impossible. People be doing it all the time, like you see me, you hear me, you aware of what they're doing behind you, the

00:19:41.740 - 00:19:54.400

people you know. You know it's, you see the whole visual thing. You aware of yourself. I mean, all of these things are happening at once. You know you're not on one track. You know, like, Well, I only know that I'm holding the microphone.

00:19:55.480 - 00:20:08.700

I mean, like, so this is where we have to be in our music. We have to try to get right into the total. Immediately if we want to focus in on a certain spot, okay? Or, you know, what have you I guess. What I really meant to

00:20:08.700 - 00:20:24.740

say is there seems to be more of a balance now between the soloist. You can have soloists, but there also is a place for the group as a whole. Would you accept that way of putting it? Can I ask you a couple of questions about pianos, and

00:20:26.480 - 00:20:39.560

define the absence of micro tones a hindrance in the piano that is, or on the organ, for that matter, you know, and with a horn, you can play. You don't have to play on the 12 tone scale. You can play out of the scale.

00:20:41.660 - 00:21:00.600

I feel there should be some keyboard changes made, because it's such a task for an instrumentalist on a keyboard to work with. You know, you like, like, even bass you can get

00:21:01.440 - 00:21:23.840

microphones. They haven't really gotten into the keyboard yet. They haven't gotten into the keyboard. Pianist that you most admire

00:21:26.540 - 00:21:50.320

today? Linley, well, of any period, say, Maclaurin and the non pianists, the people who don't play piano, you have

00:21:50.320 - 00:22:02.980

to name them all, but just like three or four most important ones to you, yeah, the musicians that you think that you like to listen to, or you think are influential, whatever. Well, I think one person,

00:22:02.980 - 00:22:17.160

I think one person should be heard, yes, like, this is like, you know, like, like, you got a diamond, you know, right, exactly, it's absolutely covered. I mean, it's hidden

00:22:17.760 - 00:22:31.400

from view, you know. And all of that beauty and wealth could be enjoyed, you know, by so many people that's one of the more glaring defects in the record industry, is that They haven't found a way to

00:22:31.460 - 00:22:59.980

deal with ornet fully. I don't know. I think also Ornette is the industry still has not really figured out how to deal with a black man who is assertive, who

00:22:59.980 - 00:23:13.140

says, I want this and I want this, I want this. I want it on my terms. I mean, that's my own impression, based mostly on things that people in the business have told me about why they can't sign him, or why, well, I think so too.

00:23:14.520 - 00:23:26.000

They don't matter. I deal with the person of their stature, person, you know that genius and talent, there's, there's, there's a market, I'm sure. Oh, I know there's a market, obviously, I think it's

00:23:26.000 - 00:23:49.720

ridiculous. How did you get into the Marcus already? Oh, it. I used to play it because he used to use it.

00:23:50.920 - 00:24:01.840

Yeah, he told me he was playing it. I couldn't believe it. He used to get Kees and different things. You hadn't played them before. Then how long did it take you to

00:24:01.840 - 00:24:21.800

learn how and with the organ? Did you one of the things I noticed when we were listening to your the album you did with Ornette? Did you phrased a lot

00:24:21.800 - 00:24:36.080

of things like a saxophone. Oh, really, yeah. I thought, yeah, well, I would that wasn't your reason for getting into it, though, instrument, getting into that particular the organ. Yeah. No, it was. It was almost

00:24:39.200 - 00:24:49.960

to have that. It's almost just like one of those weird things that happened. Just decided one day you're going to get an organ. Not even that much.

00:24:50.500 - 00:25:12.420

Somebody gave you an organ one second, sure, sure you. Could you say, Yeah, how did you get? How did you get the organ?

00:25:14.340 - 00:25:35.300

Oh, that's okay, funny story. No, you know, I gotta have two pianos at home. I have a rebuilt small size, grand. So my piano tuner just spent like four hours tuning two pianos. So he was quite beat,

00:25:35.300 - 00:25:51.400

and he was on his way out the door. So I was thinking about getting the piano for some things. So I said, I said, you think that you could use piano? He turned around and said, piano, lady, get yourself an organ.

00:25:52.960 - 00:26:10.080

Not piano. I mean organ. He intimidated you in here, yeah, okay. How much maybe we could finish on the phone or something, a little more, because I want to go with something with Jimmy.

00:26:10.080 - 00:26:23.240

Okay, whatever you want, it's up to you. Do you rather do the thing with Jimmy? Then we can break it off here. You can call me tonight. Okay, we're at the motel. Yeah, yeah. What time do you figure? Do you'll, um, well,

00:26:24.860 - 00:26:42.980

why not just come over to the motel? Oh, right. Like I can be right on the phone. Okay, how late do you figure you'll stay at and listen? You know, two years, three years ago, they boom.

00:26:42.980 - 00:27:14.520

Season. Yeah, so you know, three years ago. Well, what happened down here is that not being at this point New York, where people are brought up and hear so called Jazz, whatever you want to call that

00:27:16.740 - 00:27:36.800

music from their infancy, so they can, I mean, like I remember the times I saw John's group was New York over the holidays, 1966 1967 and blinding, you know, snowing. I took those stay with friends in Brooklyn. I took

00:27:36.800 - 00:27:51.220

some way over, trudged over through this snowy. Thing was still packed. Make anything. That's why, to see it was, you know, you and Ornette, and I think there's their group on, maybe our job again,

00:27:56.680 - 00:28:28.460

that's New York. So things have come a long way in three years, and the crowd attend there last night through almost all of sunrise, which is about an hour and a half long. I think he played because he's not had you very often he wanted

00:28:28.880 - 00:28:52.000

to trot out the entire repertoire of sunroof, which is understandable. Do that was one of the things I meant to ask you, by the way, what do you think of the word jazz? Well, I just think

00:28:54.160 - 00:29:18.300

that it doesn't hold capacity. I don't know. It just isn't i It doesn't express what my idea of music is today, or John's, John's, I bet, right, I remember he said he thought it was classical music. Make

00:29:25.940 - 00:29:49.720

or maybe not classical music in the sense of what we know as classical music, but I think it's a particular classic music that's created, I don't know. Mr. When you think about what it is and what it

00:29:49.720 - 00:30:13.260

represents, she just she. To give it the automatic link. What are we leaving Sunday? Probably because I left my tuning key in that other

00:30:18.960 - 00:30:29.420

room downstairs. You know that room we were being interviewed. Well, they called me to speak to me, and so I just like took my bag with me, and I left the tray

00:30:30.500 - 00:30:49.540

right on the table. Okay, downstairs, right? Yeah, so the instance and things I don't worry about, but at least a teenage kid, you can mail it to do. No, I think I have a single going along with that. That

00:31:00.720 - 00:31:15.420

going along with that. They ask you what you think about playing clubs. I was talking to Jimmy last night. He's way down the whole idea of Garrison, just prepared to teach in the university and with private

00:31:15.420 - 00:31:34.160

students. The club atmosphere doesn't allow you know, what I think about the talk things, really, I think it would be a pound in development. You know what I mean, like, if a person, so I

00:31:34.160 - 00:31:55.720

think it has some good points there. But otherwise, I don't. I think that that period, you know, I think it's like a person like Jimmy Garrison, you know, really doesn't need us. But like the new players who got need to play and need to receive, you

00:31:55.720 - 00:32:18.300

know, need to develop. This is good, because if they didn't make it the first set. They can try again each night. They can just come in and work, so you're not fantastically interested in yourself.

00:32:20.280 - 00:32:38.000

What about if somebody were to offer you, say, within reasonable approximating your home, a teaching position like Archie's doing one of the Black Studies programs. Some were more interested in doing a thing of that nature. I don't

00:32:40.940 - 00:32:59.680

think I would like to teach now publicly, because I don't really have time to do it to be away from home when your children are early or older, perhaps maybe a possibility.

00:33:01.960 - 00:33:19.740

But at present, you know, I like, I don't like to stay away from home. That's one reason, the fact that I haven't really considered, you know, getting involved, because there's so

00:33:19.740 - 00:33:42.640

much other things right now. You know that I feel that needs work, needs development, one of the questions I got asked a lot when my book first came out, I was interviewed on Rodeo Several

00:33:42.640 - 00:33:57.460

people asked me. They said, Well, you write a lot about men, don't women play this music. So I had to sit back and think about that. Think about why there weren't more women active using it.

00:34:00.340 - 00:34:11.340

There aren't I wanted to ask you in particular, there any particular unique problems you run into being a woman and a particular trying to lead a group? I mean conflicts or luxury

00:34:13.920 - 00:34:34.880

situations or whatever. I think first and major problem with women being involved. Those who, you know, have children is the home, because even if they can afford, you know, help, you know, take care of the children,

00:34:35.420 - 00:34:50.260

they still don't feel right. You know, if they have an over busy schedule, you know, like, what I'm doing now really doesn't interfere, because it doesn't happen that often. I think that's one of the major reasons. And then, like you say, in

00:34:50.260 - 00:35:07.380

leadership to have a group, I don't think that would be too much of a problem if the person can have someone take in a time for her that. Wouldn't have to be a problem with the manager, but I just think for various reasons, because a lot of women

00:35:07.920 - 00:35:28.700

who work for fear, and then they get tired, they want to spend some time at home, or they want to have some children. Because I have a good friend in Detroit, Terry College. Oh, yes, she stopped playing. And not really stopped, but she stopped

00:35:28.700 - 00:35:45.220

playing. She's doing what she wants to do. She's happy to be at home and maybe playing once a year or something. It these Happy Black meals should come out occasionally.

00:35:45.280 - 00:36:05.760

You know, once in a while, even if it's just the work, maybe during the summer months or work, they should come out. I guess there are problems. Did you ever encounter a great deal of discrimination because

00:36:05.760 - 00:36:23.360

you were woman, or you accepted pretty readily on the basis of your music? Because I started young, very young, playing in the most musicians, which most musicians older

00:36:23.420 - 00:36:45.040

than me, much older than me, helped me with my music. They were protective, right? So, like they'd encourage you to play. You know, you come up and hear them, and they get you to come up and play. I but I've heard women.

00:36:45.100 - 00:37:07.320

I've heard that story before. You know, like women taking the job, and they go there, and, you know, the people hire, I guess the leaders hire women, and they don't want them. You it does seem particularly to affect that women want to play

00:37:08.820 - 00:37:20.480

horns, or really, yeah, see, even when a woman is successful, it's limited to playing a keyboard instrument, and it's very hard to break out of that

00:37:20.480 - 00:37:35.300

particular right, something very, right, very, very light and very feminine, because it's just a woman to just lift all this up and, you know, it's, I think she can find a way to

00:37:35.300 - 00:37:52.900

express without using the mediums, You know, like that are mechanically difficult to use. I noticed that Lew played a record of yours on the flying pole test. Did you see that? I think

00:37:55.900 - 00:38:09.900

was Korea, right? And he said, Well, I would have known that was immediately. That was interesting. I never had occurred to me. I didn't know how he would have done that immediately. Did you feel that was an accurate assessment

00:38:09.900 - 00:38:35.360

of your play? Do you feel when you listen to your own play? Because I don't know how women play. Yeah, that's women play. I don't have any comparison. I

00:38:41.540 - 00:39:01.200

don't know my reaction too, you'd have already to have women classified Well, women play like this. As far as I can tell, based on the team number of women, what I got,

00:39:07.740 - 00:39:25.760

one of the things I wanted to ask you about was favorite records, favorite records of your own. That is that you cut under your own name and favorite records of John it is your favorite records, and then just favorite records, period that

00:39:25.760 - 00:39:40.100

are not yours or John's something really true. Yeah, I would say all of John's records are my favorite. I can understand that. And none special, none really dear to me than any other you know. And

00:39:40.100 - 00:39:56.860

none of my records are my favorite. You don't have life you like better than any of the other connections and any other records that you are very attached

00:39:58.000 - 00:40:32.540

to of other people. Yeah. To people, I like music. I like a lot of people. Music I like, I can't say really some that I think like listen

00:40:42.020 - 00:41:08.580

to an orchestra. Would have to be an end so many people it looks prettier than it smells. Already was the South San Francisco. They use some of this lamb from garbage,

00:41:09.300 - 00:41:33.500

or they did use it for garbage dumping purposes, though they don't. I don't think you do it anymore. The scrambled leaders on for a while, 1030,

00:41:42.760 - 00:42:11.160

I'm very annoying. Oh yeah, I was telling somebody I never missed a plane yet, and I was about an hour from the time I was supposed to leave. I had two other stops to make before

00:42:18.060 - 00:42:45.520

I can just go right through the gate. Anyway. Yeah, you got your tickets actually, because that's the airport. Pay much attention to or get very involved in any of the musicians groups, the cooperative kind of things like jazz, The closer

00:43:00.040 - 00:43:30.680

skills, two hours on the Long Island Railroad. Do you have any feelings about those kinds of things, those kinds of groups? I mean, they're valuable for musicians. I think so, because they're a lot of help to people,

00:43:30.680 - 00:43:48.340

you know, a lot of people who are looking for help and looking for teachers, and they don't know when to turn I think it's good that these kind of groups have been formed. It seems that traditionally, the musician has

00:43:48.340 - 00:44:00.660

been pretty unprotected the union, while, in theory, supposedly protecting, the musician hasn't taken very much interest in the musician, Symphony musician. He wasn't tremendously

00:44:09.060 - 00:44:20.040

they don't do anything for you. They don't do it till you get to the point where you don't need it anymore, when you got enough money so you go and hire a lawyer, whatever.

00:44:20.040 - 00:44:45.880

Then that's when the union will start getting interested anyway. But the resistance or not really have been a really have to die. That's what it occurs to me,

00:44:45.880 - 00:45:06.060

though those musicians groups are good for, and unlike other groups, besides teaching that kind of help, they can also help you. Should work more. Weldon. You. You need that knowledge when you, especially when you're

00:45:08.700 - 00:45:33.500

young, lying around, waiting. I wasn't worried to send you. It wasn't that far. I wasn't worried. The last thing I'd like to ask you is, if you had a chance to

00:45:33.500 - 00:45:58.960

look over that book of mine, I'd like to know what your criticism is, because I figure wherever it doesn't have to be improved. My reaction, because I read it in part,

00:46:00.000 - 00:46:16.500

well, I completed it, and I don't think that if I take apart and tell you how I really feel about it, this might not be the total. That's okay, because if I get enough people to tell me about

00:46:16.500 - 00:46:39.800

now, when I looked at it to me, now, maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed to point out a lot of like you point out that music had such a revolutionary implication, maybe, right? You

00:46:39.800 - 00:46:57.220

know, like, I didn't agree with that at all, right, I noticed you were very explicit saying that last night. I wanted your candid opinion,

00:46:58.000 - 00:47:15.480

but still and again to look at. When I look at it this way, in a sense, it is a revolutionary change, you know, as a revolutionary step that has been made. But in the aspect of you know, things that might you know involve, you know, race and

00:47:16.080 - 00:47:38.180

maybe people being militant, people using the instrument you know to talk about, you know to express their, you know, their feelings, you know, I don't that part. I don't agree with, you know, yeah, Weldon, some people do.

00:47:40.400 - 00:48:04.740

So do you really feel that music is really trying to express that quality other than music? Not solely? I don't think so. But it seems to me that anything that look at, since we're talking about a music

00:48:04.800 - 00:48:21.860

that's mostly played by black people and black people are trying to express some desire for change, that in that sense, the music is going to reflect the desire of the people who play it, even if unconsciously, it's going to reflect the desire

00:48:21.860 - 00:48:42.580

of those people to bring about a kind of change. And they, they may not, well, yeah, you seem to think that unconsciously. But I think that if you would like really research the way Johannes was going say, like, even we talked

00:48:42.580 - 00:49:02.980

about before, I love supreme, right? Check his music out, and then check out what his idea was. Then you can see that it has nothing to do with, you know. Let's be militant, you know, and let's get Stroud so

00:49:02.980 - 00:49:19.080

strong. Well, what about, what about the king that was, that was a tribute, a tribute, yeah, but to a great man. But the man stands for certain things too, besides just being he's not. He's not

00:49:19.080 - 00:49:36.200

just a great inventor or a great scholar, but he's a great leader in a certain direction. So it implies at least some approval of of King's goals as well as of the man himself. Yeah. So that's why, that's what all I mean, really, there's a the music, you

00:49:36.200 - 00:49:59.920

know, can't help but be involved in the world to some extent, because the people who make it live in the world. It isn't, I think it's mostly like, well, maybe I think that it expressed his.

00:50:00.390 - 00:50:11.550

Know, I mean, like, more or less a tribute, like, you know, it's a tribute to a great man and a tribute to this young girl, or whatever people he, like chose,

00:50:12.930 - 00:50:25.520

you know. But I don't see that it's, you know, that it's, I don't see it in the form of, you know, like, really, you know, that's concentrating. No, I don't think it's for that purpose. I didn't mean it's for

00:50:25.520 - 00:50:38.960

that purpose. I mean, mostly it's for the purpose of the musicians. Musicians play because they have to play. But a lot of things go into making up an individual person, and one of the things that goes into is their whole life apart from

00:50:38.960 - 00:50:51.940

music. That's all I really meant by and maybe, and I stressed one aspect. I mean, you could just as well stress other aspects. I wasn't. But what I wasn't trying to say that this was the sole thing that goes into the music, Yeah,

00:50:51.940 - 00:51:03.960

but see, and then another thing too, was John. I know it wasn't. There's some people who will tell you that it is. Well, nobody has really said that. It's the only thing. Some people have said it's of great importance, and

00:51:03.960 - 00:51:20.880

some people have said it's a lesser importance. Very few people say that it has no importance whatsoever. And nobody has said that that is the only reason for playing music. I mean, Archie Hans Werner, probably most political music,

00:51:20.880 - 00:51:34.820

but that those are sort of like the extreme limits of the answers I get to that question. Or somebody like Marian or Archie will say that it's very definitely connected with politics. And they'll talk about working with SNCC and so forth

00:51:34.820 - 00:51:44.860

and so on. And then other people will say, well, it's not connected at all. And then think about a little say, well maybe here it is, and here it is. But overall, that's not the major reason. No, I don't think it is the reason. I mean, people go

00:51:44.860 - 00:51:59.620

into music to play music. They don't go into music to be politicians. But the again, it's very hard to escape being being influenced by the overall situation in which you find yourself. I mean, John couldn't ignore those four girls. That

00:51:59.620 - 00:52:21.260

was, No, it was just a sympathetic, well, when, when he did the son, for example, you say love, may there be peace and love and happiness? That's a political

00:52:21.260 - 00:52:37.520

statement, in a sense, because, you know, it is really because, I mean, as you can see, we don't have peace when you go to your church. You know, wherever you go, like, you know, like, if you're, if the minister who's ever talking when he makes

00:52:37.520 - 00:52:49.060

a statement like this, he going to take it as being political. Um, that's because I don't think he means it, if I really didn't mean it, either, not in the political sense. Well, I don't mean political in the sense of

00:52:49.060 - 00:53:02.160

Republicans or Democrats, okay. I mean political because this is a country that's by and large based on war, and when you say, Let there be peace, or this is a country you know, which a lot of people are unhappy when you say, May there be happiness for all

00:53:02.160 - 00:53:15.780

mankind, you're asking for a drastic change in the way the world is. Because there's not happiness for all mankind, no, but it's the help. You know, it's like the person who has gotten himself where he has all been

00:53:16.260 - 00:53:34.640

put there, you know, by whatever course and assuming leadership, felt the need to, you know, to express this kind of idea. And I didn't, you know, I didn't trace it. I didn't trace that. It was nothing. But what he felt, you know, he said he felt that he

00:53:34.640 - 00:53:49.600

should do himself, you know, because of the position he'd been placed in, you know, where he where he could do some good, whereas he could help and inspire. You know? Sure, sure. So the only way I look at it, it's like to come to Woodstock.

00:53:50.080 - 00:54:11.280

He's a new Woodstock. What is he doing? He's supposed to be, he's supposed to be in rock and here he is in rock and roll movie. They flew him in by helicopter to ask him this. 100 600,000 young, you know, to just calm them to keep asking to be

00:54:23.230 - 00:54:38.050

gone, they said they weren't even police, like the regular, you know, uniform police. No, this is so beautiful. It was just someone who asked me, What can we do to make this

00:54:38.050 - 00:55:07.790

festival peaceful? You don't even youngsters. Think about no way thinking about nothing but hearing that music, you know, and they called him. I feel that people, when they've gotten themselves in that

00:55:07.790 - 00:55:22.040

position, they I feel it's their duty, no matter what they what position, what stand they may take personally, like I said Dodie, in other words, like you may have like in your home, there may be, certainly what things you feel, maybe some

00:55:22.040 - 00:55:37.040

things say, well, I should, my son should do this, or this one should do that. But there's a certain, there's certain example you constantly keep before those Kees, even if maybe you don't at that moment agree with but for his growth and his protection,

00:55:37.340 - 00:55:51.700

right? You You know, you present a certain picture to him, you know. And this is, this is what I think we all have to do. Parents don't let children know everything they do. They keep certain things away from them, things that they don't need to

00:55:51.700 - 00:56:10.440

know until they're ready, until they're old enough to understand what's happening. So I figured for some people placed in leadership have a responsibility always present the right side. Not everybody, not everybody takes

00:56:12.300 - 00:56:25.640

their responsibility, but they should. They should in leadership, like someone who's not in the light, because, like, I feel that you're in leadership because a lot of people put you there. Sure jump there on your own, like, like, 1000s and 1000s

00:56:25.640 - 00:56:42.980

of people are responsible for you, so you have a responsibility. You.